Thread: Sleep Problem

Try melatonin


http://www.melatonin.com/

Originally Posted by Diablo1990

I don't know what to do anymore I think it is the only thing holding me back from gaining a lot on lifting. I feel that if I didn't have sleeping problems I could be a lot bigger and stronger. I think the reason I can't sleep is because I have ADHD and I don't take medicine anymore due to certain reasons and I can't rest my mind because I am always thinking. I tried going to sleep and it felt like an hour but it was only 5 minutes... I tried melatonin and I really do not know what else to do. Any suggestions??

Thanks in advance!

oO, I already used melatonin I said

Originally Posted by Diablo1990

oO, I already used melatonin I said

oops, I didn't see that....how many times and at what dose, you can also try valerian root

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030415/1755.html

What is the end of your day like? how close to bedtime do you train/eat? are you active just before getting into bed? Are you on the computer a lot just before getting into bed?

I am always on the computer, I eat all the time sometimes before bed if I am hungry cause I don't wanna try going to sleep on empty stomach. I lift around 3-4pm

I use like 3mg of melatonin or something like that

Bulkmeup was asking if you are hyperstimulating your brain before bed, and causing cortisol inhibition of natural melatonin release after sundown. He also asked it you are loading up your stomach, as that can also cause sleep disruption.

Imparative for sleep:

Relatively cool room temperatures. Avoid use of heavy blankets and covers that trap body heat. Your body needs to cool down to relax large muscle groups, as they relax heart rate drops as does blood pressure. Blood flow to extremeties is reduced and core temperature drops slightly as main energy production systems shift to idle, and cell damage clean up begins throughout the body.

Noise and light can disrupt sleep. If necessary, find ear plugs and eyeshades to help reduce sensory input that otherwise impairs those who are light sleepers from gaining deep sleep.

If you find yourself snoring (or others mention it), sleep on your side, instead of your back or belly. It should keep you from snoring, a sign of sleep apnea, and allow you fewer late night sleep interruptions.

Avoid spending time in front of monitors - TV and computer - two hours before bedtime. They, and bright room light, can reduce or inhibit the natural release of melatonin necessary to prepare the body and mind for much needed rest. Use lower wattage bulbs in your lamps and avoid having them positioned so that they shine directly into your face (over the shoulder is best if you're reading or doing close up work at night).

For the same reason, avoid late night anaerobic and aerobic exercise that stimualtes the CNS, increases body temperature, cardiac and respiration rate, and exerts a delayed rise in cortisol in response to training.

Avoid eating later at night. The release of gastric jiuices and peristaltic action are naturally excitatory cues. They redirect blood to the core and keep core temperatures from falling properly as you try to rest with slow digesting food in your stomach. Likewise, avoid carbs later at night. The rise and fall of insulin can cause hypoglycemia, and when paired with a delayed burst of cortisol (due to improper sleep phasing) between 2 and 4am will bring on nightmares and night panic attacks. This is particularly true for members who have excitatory and anti-excitatory neuotransmitter production out of balance and are "naturally high strung". This means you have elevated daytime *and* nighttime cortisol and with it, poor insulin control - and you are therefore prone to adrenaline release that naturally follows a rapid drop in blood sugar after carb intake at night.

To help induce sleep, use the following:

During the day and just before bed - take a combination of taurine, inositol, magnesium citrate and very low doses of GABA. All of these are depleted in people with sleep phasing problems, for low melatonin strong affects liver chemistry, the site of synthesis of these compounds.

At bedtime, add TIME RELEASED melatonin, 3-6 mg, depending on your bodymass and your degree of sleep impairment. Try 3 mg first. You know you taking too much, if you have problems waking up the next morning. Add valarian, an herb that is nonaddicting and doesn't need cycling (neither does melatonin). Its cheap and its effective for inducing calm, preventing you from unneeded brain activity at night.

Now - the single most important tip here. The need to adopt and adhere to a fairly rigid sleep schedule. In bed before 10:30pm, earlier if possible, without mental / brain / visual / light stimulation 2 hrs before bed. You should aim for no less than 6 hrs and preferably 7-8 hours of sleep each night. The more you stick to this schedule, the more chance you have of reachieving proper sleep cycle and sleep phasing. With it, comes better regulation of excess cortisol and insulin production, and improved growth hormone and recovery.

Without a doubt...and I don't say this lightly...disrupted sleep, coupled with poor diet are the most likely culprits for derailed training and poor gains in mass and strength despite careful adherence to a training regimine (and avoidance of overtraining).

To recap: the keys to a good nights sleep lie in avoiding excessive stimulation, use of calming and stress and stimulation fiighting supplements during the day, use of rest promoting supplements at night - and going to bed as close to the same time each night - 3-4 hours before natural melatonin peak occurs - at 2-3am. If you go to bed later than 11pm, the melatonin you take will cause the peak to shift, and distrupt, rather than help, your sleep problems. Ditto if you take too much melatonin at night. You need just enough to induce the rest state that slows the body and allows the mind to naturally close down into low idle consciousness (sleep wave patterns). Ir you go to bed later, even without melatonin supplements, the peak will be delayed and reduced and your rest and recovery impaired. You cannot burn your candle at both ends and expect the body to function normally.

The term sleep phasing refers to the shfit in brain patters as the days activity related information, short term sensory and thought inputs stored in your mental buffers, are processed and either discarded or linked into longer term memory. After that, the body produces recovery status hormones (repair and growth, which follows the melatonin peak at night) and sleep deepens until 4-5am, when melatonin levels taper off and cortisol production and release resume for the day.

psychological

Thanks I read all that, I will start trying it

Excellent and very detailed feedback from trouble.

Rather than popping sleep aid pills like they were peanuts and possibly become dependant on them, personally, i would suggest that you put the first few of trouble's suggestions in place and make those lifestyle changes first.

I.E. get off the computer a couple of hours before bedtime. Dont eat too close to bedtime (about 1hr prior getting into bed should be ok. if not a bit earlier). relax and try and wind down a couple of hours before bedtime (dont listen to loud music, watch tv on full blast. Instead read a book) ..etc.

If that dosent seem to work, then you could try some sleep aids. Dont expect instant results. Get a sleep regimin in place and give it some reasonable time. Just like your training and diet, give it time before deciding that it dosent work and make changes.

I have never tried melatonin, but if i remember correctly, it needs to be cycled every 9 weeks.

i snore terribly...on my side or on my back. is there anything i can do short of surgery?

Originally Posted by P-funk

i snore terribly...on my side or on my back. is there anything i can do short of surgery?

I usually snore if I sleep on my back. Dont know how effective they are, but have you tried those 'breathe rite' strip thingys?

Most of us who snore and lie on our side find relief from sound and air-way obstructed sleep (sleep apnea) by lying on our side. Why? The tissues of the upper airway relax. When lying on our sides, these tissues are generally in a position to allows air passage, because the tongue and soft tissues of the epiglottis lie the side, so they don't block the airway and are less apt to vibrate as breath is expelled.

If the head position is wrong (flat or even tilted downward), the snorning may still occur while you lie on your side. To correct position, you need neck and head support that cants the head upwards, keeps your head in the desired position despite the natural tendency to assume a curled body position that puts the head and neck back into an airway-compromised position.

I recommend you consider a pillow that allows you to assume a more stretched body position and places the head at a desirable elevation angle. The arm and shoulder are needed to keep the head back (not angled toward your feet as is natural) and the head up to alllow postnasal drainage allow gravity to keep the epiglottis and tongue to the side.

Does this makes sense, p-funk?

You might ask, why do most people not snore on their sides?

The answer lies in mass. Our airways are fixed in size at a particular age and do not grow larger. But the mass in chest muscle and curiously, the tissue of the soft palate that is prone to vibrating will continue to grow in adults - most notably in large adults - in response to anabolic hormones. Hypertrophy, but not the type you want.

Can you do anything to stop it? Not if your present body composition and mass are hard won. There are surgical procedures to correct the position of the laxity of the tongue position, but this surgery is controversial. It corrects a percentage of the worst cases, but fails to address others. Another procedure uses chemical treatment to decrease cell mass in the tongue - to literatlly kill of tongue muscle mass. Its a very painful procedure. Again, its general efficacy is limited. I suspect it might cause loss of taste sensation as well, but haven't seen mention made of this potential side effect.

Use of breathing strips is relative in its efficacy as well. If the force of expelled air and the mass of vibrating tissue - in certain head positions - is suficient, the stips will provide at best modest relief. However, in combination with adjusted head position, it may help.

The FDA approved pillow I mentioned may be found at:

http://www.sonapillow.com/pillow.htm

Now, a bit of speculation, based on observation.

If you have a stressful job, you may have developed a tendency to unconsciously hold your breath during the day, when you're cardiovascular exertion is low (sitting at a desk, or watching TV).

Under the constant goad of chronic un-relievced stress, we learn to breath from the chest, rather than the natural breathing movedments of the young. Belly breathing.

Consider this. That chronic stress loading may naturally (as in primative brain response) condition our breathing to stimulate the solar plexus - the sensor of stress. Incorrectshallow breathing would *reinforce* the stress response. It becomes a viscous cycle.

What if, this automatic breathing response were to become so ingrained, that we were to use it in our sleep? Shallow breath pressure would be *insufficient* to move the overgrown mass of the upper airway out of the way, when improper head and neck position are present, regardless of whether we are laying on our sides or back.

Therefore, my advice to you, based on this speculation, is that you engage in regular correct breathing technique hourly during the day. Take a brief break to belly breath at least 20 times once an hour in a brief session. Clear your mind, at the same time, say with stetching. Also ues one or two moderately fast paced walks, in the early morning and evening. Consciously use paced belly breathing during these longer periods to help retrain unconscious breathing habits at night.

I'll think that the combination of improved breathing habits, correction of head position and perhaps use of the Breath-Right (tm) strips might be sufficient to stop snoring and allow you improved rest at night.

Originally Posted by BulkMeUp

I have never tried melatonin, but if i remember correctly, it needs to be cycled every 9 weeks.

I am unable to find substantiating evidence for the need to cycle this supplement. You can cycle it if you wish.

A useful synposis of melatonin and its reported results of its use a supplent for treating a varieity health disorders can be found at:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...melatonin.html

Readers who take prescription medications should familiarize themselves with contraindications list near the bottom of this article.

Originally Posted by Trouble

I am unable to find substantiating evidence for the need to cycle this supplement. You can cycle it if you wish..

Cant remember where i read that I think it was on the packaging of a procuct

But i do remember Jodi got similar advice.

Originally Posted by Jodi

One thing with it though that I found out the other day. You need to cycle it. I was talking with my doctor about it because I've been taking it for several months now and sleeping like a baby but the past week my sleep has become very erradic. He said for 1 night to take 6mg to get a good nights rest but then come off of it for a week. So needless to say, I slept very well that night and I'm currently off of it for a few more days now. He suggested cycling off of it for a week every 4 months and to only stick with 3mg a night as I have been doing.

I guess the length of the cycle would depend on the doseage.

The liver enzyme that degrades melatonin is constituitively expressed. Its not induced, as is the case for many drug metaboliizing liver microsomal enzymes.

Melatonin has very short half-life and is modestly absorbed (30-50%). It may be that natural receptor sensitivity rises with suppplement use. If you exogenously (by supplement use) raise concentrations by augmenting recovering natural production in early hours of sleep, and the plasma concentration is higher than necessary, it would disrupt sleep phasing.

Makes sense, ceasing use for a week afer 3-4 weeks of continual use. If it were a liver enzyme induction issue, you would have to abstain from use for much longer (4-5 weeks).

Good point, bulkmeup.

i do stretches,,,take a bath is a good way to relax,,,,bang the mrs chemicals will be released then it aahhhhhh of to sleep,,,,,,,try meditation,,,zone meditation,,,,,put an ice pack on the back of your head for a while,,,,,,,tribulas is supposed to help with sleep,,,,or a gh enhancer,,,,,valium nah forget that one,,,,,,,just relax and close your eyes

Originally Posted by Diablo1990

.. I tried melatonin and I really do not know what else to do. Any suggestions??

Thanks in advance!

forman rules: try melatonin


mwahahaahahahaha

thanks for the advice T.

I think this is a very important topic considering that most people complain about either not getting enough sleep or having a particular sleep problem.
As active individuals we need more sleep than the average person to repair and grow.

I used to work nights which screwed up my sleep patterns for a long time. I tried both melatonin and valerian root capsules and had some short term success with them but I was concerned about the long term effects on my liver (my bottle says for occasional use). I quickly became dependent on the stuff just to get some adequate shut eye. On top of that I would only sleep in 4 hour stints. I would go to bed sleep deeply for 4 hours and then be unable to get to sleep again. I was increasing the dosage too, from 2 to 6 pills because my body was adjusting to it always being in my system. Also I always felt groggy and dull when I woke up, often with a mild headache.

It took me six months to get back to normal, not using anything, and instead sticking to a routine that included going to bed at a regular time and relaxing my mind and body (standing on my head in a dark room for five minutes- to calm my nerves, get the weight off my feet and move my blood back to my heart, plus breathwork and movement work: for me 30min of Tai Chi or yoga). Another thing that I found that worked for me was if I had excessive amounts of energy at night I would go for a short walk. I find walking to be a great way to realx, to wind down from your day.

If you work at home I would strongly suggest taking a short nap in the middle of the day. Even 30 min can do a person wonders. I know it's not possibe for most of us.

For me if my mind is clear, no worries, I have a better chance of sleeping well. Do something you enjoy, a light activity before you go to bed, something that makes you happy. I used to watch the boob tube to relax but it never worked and instead it just made me feel more anxious and disconnected to myself and the people around me. Feed your mind with a good book, instead. You get more millage out of a book, more bang for your buck. I always end my day reading, even if it is just a few pages.

There were some good ideas in previous posts. I am just saying what I found works for me, but whatever you do don't stress about it that's the worse thing you can do. Just experiment.

Valerian extracts haven't been shown to cause liver toxicity. Several bioactive compounds in this herb, including a newly discovered lignan and a bioflavinoid called linarin, have been shown to bind to and activate GABA receptors in brain. In those of us with diminished GABA production due to chronic stress, low GABA can result in "busy brain" or anxiolytic (anxious) brain activity GABA also has a secondary role, in that it modulates other neurotransmitters, especially the excitatory types. Low levels of GABA can result in a generally anxious state throughout the day and evening. Certain activities in the evening that boost brain activity may create a condition that does not permit relaxation once the activity ceases - when GABA is low. Magnesium and taurine both play a role in also reducing brain function, and enhancing GABA action in the brain, day or night.

The recommendation of a walk is right on target. I highly recommend it, for clearing the mind, and encouraging breathing patterns, called belly breathing, that help turn off stress hormone and induce a more placid and restfuly brain chemistry. Don't walk so fast that you are pushing your aerobic capacity, since this can cause your body temperature to rise. A faster paced walk earlier in the evening may help elevate BMR, improve breathing regulation, reduce stress, and encourage healthy blood glucose management. It also seems to help sleep quality, when used with other forms of cardiovascular condition.

I second the idea of avoiding TV and computer work later at night (easier said than done, in the case of computer use). Light reading is great for training your mind - and that, has been shown to ward off brain deterioration later in life. A small dose of mental supplement can have a big payoff in later years.

I think if I start taking my ritalin again it will help because the problem I think is I can't sleep because I think to much at night and can't rest my brain

Also to what people do not realize. When you sleep you need to be in complete darkeness so your body secreted serotonin. There was a study done where people where a sleep in a dark room and a flash light was shined on the back of there needs even with eyes covered with a blind fold. The melatonin levels where severely altered as well as their sleep. So sleepiong a complete dark room with solve the problem. Again trouble brings up a good point about cortisol levels. if were cortisol levels are elevated before sleep from training to late in the day lack of sun light during the day time this could have a major effect on sleep patterns. You may want to look into something called methylcobalamin which is a methylated b-12 that helps with your neurological system and helps to reset your biological clock. Serotonin also plays a major role becuase if you are low in serotonin from stress over production of cortisol you will also have low melatonin levels due to the low serotonin you low melalonin. If you are suffering from anxiety look in to increasing your b-6 in he P5P form which is given to autistic childern to help them boost serotonin levels, check your mineral levels people under stress should be at least 400-800 mgs magnesium. The gov't is drilling into our heads calcium calcium and if you have an imbalnced ca/mg ratio it will deplete magnesium levels in the gut and causes adrenal hyperfunction (rise in cortisol) Remeber no matter how well we eat if minerals are not imbalanced due to high fat diets and fiber that binds with alot of them we end up with subclinical deficiency. Look up phytates and mineral depletion it will shock you. Look into inositol as well as it has been well proven as antianxiety, L-theanine is also very good at 200 mgs every 4 hours. It helps to deactivate the hypo/adrenal axis by stimulating the parasympathetic system. Right now you are locked into sympathetic domaiance and need to disengage it. Try to shut out all lights cut all meals 2 hour before bed and just sit and relax and listen to a calm relaxing tape. This will reprogram your stress response better then any supplement. It called "embracing" or skilled relaxation and dr stolls is where I learn alot of my information as well as researching autism. if any one has any chronic illness start researching autism and you will find many answers

Whenever I am on the computer for a long periods of time during the day, I usually have trouble sleeping. When I hardly use it, I sleep well.

Computer stimulates your beta waves (stress) and takes you out of alpha mode (relaxation and concentration). At night it puts your body into slight stress mode and lowers serotonin. Again it affects people differently. Call it a theory but could excessive computer late at night being contributed to increase of teenage depression. I know that there is clinical diagnosis of internet addiction that is being treated by psychologist. Interesting huh. These factors are just starting to surface and will continue as computer usage and cell phone is increased. Another thing I stay away from is microwave food becuase it is proven to causes enzymes in meats to be reduced and basically you are eating DEAD food..

I would think just reading Trouble's responses would be enough to put someone in a coma...

"Another thing I stay away from is microwave food becuase it is proven to causes enzymes in meats to be reduced and basically you are eating DEAD food.."

You cook food, you denature enzymes. To which 'reduced' enzymes in meat are you referring, HAN?

Can you provide an explanation and a citation to back it up?

It should probably be in a new thread, as this one dedicated to sleep issues.

FatcatMC: please refrain from reading my posts if you find them snooze-inducing.