Thread: Sleep and recovery

Had to chew on this question for a while to understand it.

What I believe happened: this was a short-term period of sleep disruption. You found that periods of sleep that appear to re-balance neurochemistry and the associated excitatory activity within brain centers (so-called de-synchonization of the brain). Call it base-line reset. Its really what it this REM sleep appears to be, a reset button that allows you daily to cope with new larger and minor stressors (emotional, physical, environmental) without accumulating damage from these daily (chronic) exposure periods.

Biomedical evidence for this supposition:

Purpose of REM sleep: endogenous anti-epileptogenesis in man -- a hypothesis. Jaseja H. Med Hypotheses. 2004;62(4):546-8.

Neuro-scientists, worldwide, are endeavoring to elucidate the purpose of sleep which still remains largely elusive. There is, however, consensus on many aspects of sleep functions; one such aspect is its relationship with seizures/epilepsy. There is unequivocal agreement on increased susceptibility to epilepsy during nonrapid eye movement (NREM, slow-wave) sleep. Large number of studies have shown increased frequency of seizures and epilepti-form discharges in epileptic patients during NREM sleep (esp., stages I and II) which is associated with EEG synchronization. Similarly, there is widespread acceptance of de-synchronized brain-activity states being associated with rarity/total absence of epileptic potentials, one such state being rapid eye movement (REM) sleep. Certain drugs and substances which inhibit NREM sleep have been found to possess anti-convulsant properties. Not surprisingly, drugs/chemicals which enhance/promote NREM sleep or suppress/inhibit REM sleep are associated with increased susceptibility to seizures and are contraindicated in epilepsy. The manner and pattern in which REM phase occurs in sleep are also naturally programmed to exert anti-epileptogenic influence. This hypothesis-article highlights and conceptualizes the primary function of REM-sleep as endogenous anti-epileptogenic system in the body akin to the endogenous analgesia and immune systems man is born with.

Seizures can be thought of as massed charges that build up like static in the air before a thunderstorm. This rem sleep acts to difuse this buildup and turn the brain system down to "low" setting, to allow healing and tissue recovery and rebuilding to occur nightly.

So, when you don't have this REM sleep period, you feel foggy, maybe a little nauseous, disoriented, maybe have a short-temper, and a hard time concentrating and retaining information. Why? Probably because the brain centers needed for normal mental function need to be reset, returned to a normalized baseline state of normalized biochemical activity.

Not sure if this makes sense. Jim. There is no 'right' explanation for your observation. Just a little clever guesswork based on current opinion/theory.

Originally Posted by Trouble

Had to chew on this question for a while to understand it.

What I believe happened: this was a short-term period of sleep disruption. You found that periods of sleep that appear to re-balance neurochemistry and the associated excitatory activity within brain centers (so-called de-synchonization of the brain). Call it base-line reset. Its really what it this REM sleep appears to be, a reset button that allows you daily to cope with new larger and minor stressors (emotional, physical, environmental) without accumulating damage from these daily (chronic) exposure periods.

Biomedical evidence for this supposition:

Purpose of REM sleep: endogenous anti-epileptogenesis in man -- a hypothesis. Jaseja H. Med Hypotheses. 2004;62(4):546-8.

Neuro-scientists, worldwide, are endeavoring to elucidate the purpose of sleep which still remains largely elusive. There is, however, consensus on many aspects of sleep functions; one such aspect is its relationship with seizures/epilepsy. There is unequivocal agreement on increased susceptibility to epilepsy during nonrapid eye movement (NREM, slow-wave) sleep. Large number of studies have shown increased frequency of seizures and epilepti-form discharges in epileptic patients during NREM sleep (esp., stages I and II) which is associated with EEG synchronization. Similarly, there is widespread acceptance of de-synchronized brain-activity states being associated with rarity/total absence of epileptic potentials, one such state being rapid eye movement (REM) sleep. Certain drugs and substances which inhibit NREM sleep have been found to possess anti-convulsant properties. Not surprisingly, drugs/chemicals which enhance/promote NREM sleep or suppress/inhibit REM sleep are associated with increased susceptibility to seizures and are contraindicated in epilepsy. The manner and pattern in which REM phase occurs in sleep are also naturally programmed to exert anti-epileptogenic influence. This hypothesis-article highlights and conceptualizes the primary function of REM-sleep as endogenous anti-epileptogenic system in the body akin to the endogenous analgesia and immune systems man is born with.

Seizures can be thought of as massed charges that build up like static in the air before a thunderstorm. This rem sleep acts to difuse this buildup and turn the brain system down to "low" setting, to allow healing and tissue recovery and rebuilding to occur nightly.

So, when you don't have this REM sleep period, you feel foggy, maybe a little nauseous, disoriented, maybe have a short-temper, and a hard time concentrating and retaining information. Why? Probably because the brain centers needed for normal mental function need to be reset, returned to a normalized baseline state of normalized biochemical activity.

Not sure if this makes sense. Jim. There is no 'right' explanation for your observation. Just a little clever guesswork based on current opinion/theory.

It makes some sense to me and supports my observation. Very appropriate response!

Perhaps you could research some "sleep deprivation" studies in order to build upon this.

I'm acutely aware of the importance of REM from my ever-changing lifestyle... and often rely upon - when sleep is not an option.

came by this.....seems that naps aren't worthless....

1: Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Aug 29; [Epub ahead of print]Click here to read Links
Daytime Napping After a Night of Sleep Loss Decreases Sleepiness, Improves Performance, and Causes Beneficial Changes in Cortisol and Interleukin-6 Secretion.

* Vgontzas AN,
* Pejovic S,
* Zoumakis E,
* Lin HM,
* Bixler EO,
* Basta M,
* Fang J,
* Sarrigiannidis A,
* Chrousos GP.

Psychiatry, Sleep Research and Treatment Center, Penn State College of Medicine, Hershey, Pennsylvania, United States.

Abstract Sleep loss has been associated with increased sleepiness, decreased performance, elevations in inflammatory cytokines, and insulin resistance. Daytime napping has been promoted as a countermeasure to sleep loss. To assess the effects of a 2-hour mid-afternoon nap following a night of sleep loss on post-nap sleepiness, performance, cortisol, and interleukin-6 (IL-6), 41 young healthy individuals (20 men, 21 women) participated in a 7-day sleep deprivation experiment (four consecutive nights followed by a night of sleep loss and two recovery nights). Half of the subjects were randomly assigned to take a mid-afternoon nap (1400-1600) the day following the night of total sleep loss. Serial 24-hour blood sampling, multiple sleep latency test (MSLT), subjective levels of sleepiness, and psychomotor vigilance task (PVT) were completed on the fourth (pre-deprivation) and sixth days (post-deprivation). During the nap, subjects had a significant drop in cortisol and IL-6 levels (P< 0.05), while after the nap, they experienced significantly less sleepiness (MSLT and subjective) (P< 0.05) and a smaller improvement on the PVT (P< 0.1). At this time, they had a significant transient increase in their cortisol levels (P< 0.05). In contrast, the levels of IL-6 tended to remain decreased for approximately eight hours (P = 0.1). We conclude that a 2-hour mid-afternoon nap improves alertness and to a lesser degree performance and reverses the effects of one night of sleep loss on cortisol and IL-6. The redistribution of cortisol secretion and the prolonged suppression of IL-6 secretion are beneficial, as they improve alertness and performance. Key words: cortisol, IL-6, alertness, napping, Sleep loss.

PMID: 16940468 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Not perfect, but not bad.

I never claimed they didn't have a benefit. I reported that sleep biochemistry studies have shown that *chronic* reliance on afternoon naps to offset poor sleep habits has a negative impact on plasma cortisol, insulin control, immune response and autonomic system function.

Note that the effects of missed sleep are *almost identical* to those of early morning exercise in the fasted state.

Note also that cortisol spiked after the nap - an echo of normal cortisol release after sleep sufficient to induce REM brain state. However, we don't want a chronic spike in cortisol in the early evening hours - it disrupts melatonin formation and release later on in the evening hours.

Nice citation, Gordo. Thanks for mentioning it. I guess the question becomes...is there a nap duration that is best? The recommendations I've seen are to avoid lengthy naps, keeping them to 30 min.

My own experience is that a long nap screws up the following nights sleep quality and I find myself wired at 11pm.

I prefer to have my sleep consecutive, no naps. Somehow Jay Cutler pulls off sleeping in shifts which I dont understand, 3x two hour shifts. I dont know if he does this year round or just pre-comp, because he will go to the gym at say, 2am to do cardio to be all alone. He will then tan, and then go home to eat and sleep another shift.

I will say though I swear I spotted some blue under his eyes and he sometimes speaks like even more of a zombie during this time.

My own experience is that a long nap screws up the following nights sleep quality and I find myself wired at 11pm.

Yeah ditto, a short nap I feel like a million bucks. Too long and I acutally feel worse.

sorry if I implied you said naps are worthless (I probably should have said not completely worthless.....I understood you to say they weren't optimal (and I would agree) and definitely not a free pass to bypass quality evening sleep. Long story short, if you have the time to fit in a nap (after a poor night before), it wouldn't be the worst idea

I don't know about anyone else, but I have never slept for more than 3 hours at a time without waking up at night.. wake up, go back to sleep, wake up, try to go back to sleep. Even with melatonin, the same thing, only with taking melatonin it made me groggy the next day....

Maybe I'm just a very light sleeper

Originally Posted by Trouble

I never claimed they didn't have a benefit. I reported that sleep biochemistry studies have shown that *chronic* reliance on afternoon naps to offset poor sleep habits has a negative impact on plasma cortisol, insulin control, immune response and autonomic system function.

Note that the effects of missed sleep are *almost identical* to those of early morning exercise in the fasted state.

Note also that cortisol spiked after the nap - an echo of normal cortisol release after sleep sufficient to induce REM brain state. However, we don't want a chronic spike in cortisol in the early evening hours - it disrupts melatonin formation and release later on in the evening hours.

Nice citation, Gordo. Thanks for mentioning it. I guess the question becomes...is there a nap duration that is best? The recommendations I've seen are to avoid lengthy naps, keeping them to 30 min.

My own experience is that a long nap screws up the following nights sleep quality and I find myself wired at 11pm.

The last couple of months I have been out late every night during the week (11.30 - 2) and getting up at 7. I have been falling asleep at work in the morning then again after lunch. Then staying out till 4 - 6 on the weekend and sleeping during the day. I have noticed that my imune system is nowhere near what it used to be. A small cut on my hand can take 3 weeks to heal. I had a cut on my leg and its only healed properly now after about 2 months. Im not sure if this is due to poor sleeping patterns but I have developed a problem for sure...

Originally Posted by katt

I don't know about anyone else, but I have never slept for more than 3 hours at a time without waking up at night.. wake up, go back to sleep, wake up, try to go back to sleep. Even with melatonin, the same thing, only with taking melatonin it made me groggy the next day....

Maybe I'm just a very light sleeper

I dont think anyone is meant to sleep in a near unconscious state for 8 straight hours. Sleep goes in cycles. So long as the next day you feel refreshed, i would say your previous nights sleep is good.

for years i've heard that one hour before midnight is equivalent to two hours after midnight, deeper deep sleep takes place before midnight, that according to studies at Loma Linda Med Center in Cali. if i get three hours before midnight it's the same as six afterwards. anyone else heard this? if it's true, then muscle recovery would be even further aided by earlier to bed.

Microtel

Originally Posted by PreMier

Ok, lets say I sleep 6 hours at night, then get a 1-2 hour nap during the day.. will I recover just as well if I slept 7-8hrs straight at night?

How does that work? The body doesn't have a 24 hour clock.

Originally Posted by Spud

How does that work? The body doesn't have a 24 hour clock.

Intresting...

If your body is synchronized to get tired later, as a proverbial night owls, would that not mean that the pre midnight hours for the earlier synched person would be have the same effect for the night owl, only a couple of hours later?? Especially if the duration of sleep was equal?

Originally Posted by BulkMeUp

I dont think anyone is meant to sleep in a near unconscious state for 8 straight hours. Sleep goes in cycles. So long as the next day you feel refreshed, i would say your previous nights sleep is good.

No kidding! Either go to bed dehydrated or wake up in 4 hours to take a wiz. That wakes me up me every night.