Thread: Thyroid questions for Trouble

Hmmm. Thyroid extract probably wouldn't work. You need some thyroid function; theory is that you're replacing missing factors that block or reduce thyroxine OR its transport OR receptor function.

You admit to having slowed down on cardio. Thats your big problem, when coupled with a looser diet and potentially, dehydration.

You can't just up and take cytomel on top o' the levoxyl. Sorry, does not compute. Your body mass homeostasis is regulated by liver glycogen, muscle function and cardiovascular fitness status, and nutrient status/gut absorptivity rate. Muscle, gut, liver, and brain run the homeostatis show, and blood glucose control is the lynchpin - particularly for muscle strength and mass. And thats your primary calorie burner. You cut back on cardio, you may a manyfold price.

Not the answer you want, but its the right answer, for you. Take taurine for its ability to mitigate dehydration damage in brain and other tissues, like muscle.

Guardedly, you may add small doeses of ALCAR, vitamin E, zinc, and selenium to your diet. Take in methionine or sam-e as well. I guess we could consider goosing peripheral tissue T3 production. Show the following to your endo and see what they think of the idea of mixed medication treatment.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/340/6/424

Standard medical disclaimer applies.

Thank you Trouble. Your answer is and is not what I wanted to hear. It's not what I wanted to hear since I was hoping I could benefit from increasing T3. However, your explanation is what I wanted/needed to hear.

Another question that I'm curious to hear yor thoughts on is....For a person, such as me, that relies completely on synthetic T4, do you feel the dosage may need to be adjusted based on body mass? What if the same person decreases body fat while increasing lean muscle, does the dose need to be adjusted?

Originally Posted by Trouble

You can't just up and take cytomel on top o' the levoxyl. Sorry, does not compute. Your body mass homeostasis is regulated by liver glycogen, muscle function and cardiovascular fitness status, and nutrient status/gut absorptivity rate. Muscle, gut, liver, and brain run the homeostatis show, and blood glucose control is the lynchpin - particularly for muscle strength and mass. And thats your primary calorie burner. You cut back on cardio, you may a manyfold price.

You can't without a script unless you are buying it in a non-legit manner. My thyroid medicine is a combo of levothyroxine and cytomel. Thyrolar and its a 80:20 ratio of T4:T3. Also, Armour, the natural version of Thyrolar is also a T4, T3 combo. The reason behind it is because many people can't convert the T4 to T3 as nicely and I am one of them. Many times doctors will prescribe sythroid and cytomel for this reason as well.

Regardless, as Trouble said, your diet and cardio are key

Originally Posted by Jodi

You can't without a script unless you are buying it in a non-legit manner. My thyroid medicine is a combo of levothyroxine and cytomel. Thyrolar and its a 80:20 ratio of T4:T3. Also, Armour, the natural version of Thyrolar is also a T4, T3 combo. The reason behind it is because many people can't convert the T4 to T3 as nicely and I am one of them. Many times doctors will prescribe sythroid and cytomel for this reason as well.

Regardless, as Trouble said, your diet and cardio are key

The script would not be a problemn to get. Just need to talk to my endo. She's pretty open minded and willing to adept treatment based on how I feel versus strictly going by the T3, T4 numbers. My T4 level had been within "normal limits", but it had dropped a bit. That small drop sent me into classic hypothyroidism. We increased the dose of T4 and then I was running above the "normal limits", but I felt normal with no signs/symptoms of being hyperthyroid. I'm coming due for a check up anyway, may just schedule it early.

I'm cleaning up the diet and I'm increasing the cardio. Hopefully that will get me back on track. I will add in the Sam-e + Vitamin E too, it can't hurt.

L-Tyrosine would be beneficial as well. The tyrosine will help with the T4 to T3 conversion if you have issues, but either way it will help.

Add selenium methionate and ask your doctor whether you should add in chelated molybdenum as well (she should check you for metabolic shortages of various pathway intermediates).

It would be good to know if Cu (copper) and zinc are high or low. Check into the mixed type thyroid supplement. You could ask your doc about the Premier Labs glandular thyroid extract; I can't recommend it as you are already on replacement thyroxine hormone - your endo would need to make that call. If your doc recommends Armour, I would want to do some reel careful checking on the animal source, in case they use beef.

Armour is strictly derived from desicated pigs! YUMMY!

Thank you both for your help and suggestions. It's always nice to have some options.

Jod. Yes, I knew this. A new strain of porcine encephalitis (ork version of BSE) that also infects humans, cats and dogs, popped up in Asia in 1999 and has changed pork production methods worldwide. Insufficient wording on my part to explain the analogous situation and my cautionary for using dessicated animal tissue from regular commercial (slaughterhouse) sources.

Devlin. You're welcome. I would like you to consider using supplements that encourage glutathione production in liver. Its been shown to be linked to the auto-immune cascade that initates thyroiditis (hyperthyroidism). Low levels of endogenous selenium is tied to both low glutathione levels in plasma and various tissues and autoimmune disease in thyroid and pancreas.

Low selenium in soils is a key factor. If you do a search on Missouri and selenium and soils you will find an interesting study on population distribution of plasama selenium and another on agriculturally leached minerals that result in chronically low essential mineral micronutrients in plants and animals raised on these soils. Both selenium and glutathione are also tightly correlated to thyroxine hormone production and putative (shown by indirect evidence) of extrathyroid conversion of T4-->T3 (in liver).

Watch your homocysteine levels; it and B12, B5, zinc, molybdenum and copper should be monitored as a markers of hypothyroidism and response to thyroid hormone replacement therapy.

Good thread, thanks for posting it, Devlin.

Given I don't have a thyroid gland at all, my options are limited to boost the metabolism. It's hard to find info on what supplements to take to help boost the metabolism when thyoid gland is absent. Most supplements I've seen work on helping the boost the out put of the thyroid gland.

Originally Posted by Trouble

JLow selenium in soils is a key factor. If you do a search on Missouri and selenium and soils you will find an interesting study on population distribution of plasama selenium and another on agriculturally leached minerals that result in chronically low essential mineral micronutrients in plants and animals raised on these soils. Both selenium and glutathione are also tightly correlated to thyroxine hormone production and putative (shown by indirect evidence) of extrathyroid conversion of T4-->T3 (in liver).

I have a question on this. I take 200mcg of selenium a day that is part of my multi. After reading a thread over at heaven I'm hoping I'm not getting too much. My average intake with food alone is close to 100mcg so between that and the multi, do you think 300mcg per day is too much?

Devlin, here is my list of thyroid supps just to give you an idea:

Mutli - Includes all typical vits but it also includes the Selenium 200mcg
Chelated Zinc - 20mg
L-Tyrosine 1-2G ED
Taurine - 1.5G ED
Methionine - 500mg

Thank god I don't mind taking pills. I already take the following in addition to my daily Levoxyl:
Calcium - 1.8 gm(endo recommended that dose saying my requirements are higher due to no thyroid)
Vitamin D - 1000 I.U (per endo need to increase Vit D in proportion to increase in Calcium)
Ester C - 500 mg
Fish Oil - 2.4 gm
L-Glutamine - 1 gm
Glucosamine HCL/ Chondrotin Sulfate/ MSM - 1.5 gm/ 1.2 gm/ 500 mg
Kelp - 150mcg -300mcg

I already added in:
Vitamin E - 400 IU
Sam - e - 400 mg

I will be adding ther following:
Chelated Zinc - 20mg
L-Tyrosine 1-2G ED
Taurine - 1.5G ED

I should admit I stopped taking the supplements and just restarted them last week. My body/joints always feel better when taking the Glucosamine HCL/ Chondrotin Sulfate/ MSM. I do notice I feel slightly more energenic when taking the kelp. I know the Vitamin E and Sam-e can make huge improvements in the liver, I've seen it ironicaly with my youngest dog. She has chronic liver disease and had elevated ALT until she started the Vit E and Sam-e (ALT dropped from 900+ to low 400's after taking Vit E and Sam-e for 4 months). I really hope with cleaning up the diet, increasing cardio, taking supplements routinely, I will get back on track with dropping a few pounds.

I did review reading on selenium dosing recently for a client. Its generally agreed that 200 mg will not cause toxicity problems (many sites recommend 300-450 mcg per day for men, for instance). Higher doses do increase the possibility of copper deficiency, which is why 200 is thought to be a safe middle ground for dose recommendations.

My minumum recommendation for zinc chelate would be 30 mg; you can easily take as much as 60 mg without toxicity.

Sorry, Devlin, I do not recommend more than 500 mg of tyrosine. Unbeknownst to you, tyrosine hydroxylase is implicated in the formation of thyroid hyperplasia and tumors. Stick to what Jodi recommends please.

I would drop the glutamine; I advise you not to use this supplement at all. Futhermore, I recommend you find and use glucosamine HCl as an alternative.

Take the selenium with vit E, never take it with vit C - it makes it toxic.

Increase your intake of vitamin C to 2-3 grams; 500 mg is a reptty modest dose per day (unless your doctor advises otherwise).

Take taurine in half doses, ~500-600mg, 2-3 times per day. You may want to consider using magnesium citrate (450mg dose, couple times a day). Ask your doc about this last item, just to be on the safe side.

Originally Posted by Trouble

I did review reading on selenium dosing recently for a client. Its generally agreed that 200 mg will not cause toxicity problems (many sites recommend 300-450 mcg per day for men, for instance). Higher doses do increase the possibility of copper deficiency, which is why 200 is thought to be a safe middle ground for dose recommendations.

Good stuff Thanks, I'm glad to know that my dosage is safe

Originally Posted by Trouble

I did review reading on selenium dosing recently for a client. Its generally agreed that 200 mg will not cause toxicity problems (many sites recommend 300-450 mcg per day for men, for instance). Higher doses do increase the possibility of copper deficiency, which is why 200 is thought to be a safe middle ground for dose recommendations.

I'm leary on the Selenium as I know it can cause problems so I would stick with a lower dose.

My minumum recommendation for zinc chelate would be 30 mg; you can easily take as much as 60 mg without toxicity.

Think I picked up 20mg tablets. Again I will start with low dose and increase if needed.

Sorry, Devlin, I do not recommend more than 500 mg of tyrosine. Unbeknownst to you, tyrosine hydroxylase is implicated in the formation of thyroid hyperplasia and tumors. Stick to what Jodi recommends please.

I would drop the glutamine; I advise you not to use this supplement at all. Futhermore, I recommend you find and use glucosamine HCl as an alternative.

As for the tyrosine, I planned to start with 500 mg dose and increase if needed. However, given my thryoid was removed due to papillary cancer of the thyroid (1.5 cm x 1 cm x 1.5 cm tumor) think I will stick with the low dose.

May I ask why you don't recommend glutamine? I already have the glucosamine hcl on board so set there.

Take the selenium with vit E, never take it with vit C - it makes it toxic.

Increase your intake of vitamin C to 2-3 grams; 500 mg is a reptty modest dose per day (unless your doctor advises otherwise).

Take taurine in half doses, ~500-600mg, 2-3 times per day. You may want to consider using magnesium citrate (450mg dose, couple times a day). Ask your doc about this last item, just to be on the safe side.

I know I have to wait atleast 2 hours between taking my levoxyl and taking calcium because of the calcium can inhibit uptake of the levoxyl. Are there any other supplements I need to keep that consideration in mind.

For thyroidectized patients. Looks like vit B2, important in coenzyme Q10 synthesis, is also downregulated in thyroid surgical excision, vit E plays a role, in the mediation of homocysteine problems (read: nonalcoholic fatty liver, CHD, etc).

Defective remethylation of homocysteine is related to decreased synthesis of coenzymes B2 in thyroidectomized rats. Ayav A, Alberto JM, Barbe F, Brunaud L, Gerard P, Merten M, and Gueant JL.. Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Pathology in Nutrition, INSERM-0014, Medical Faculty, University of Nancy. Amino Acids. 2005 Feb;28(1):37-43.

We investigated the influence of hypothyroidism on homocysteine metabolism in rats, focusing on a hypothetical deficient synthesis of FAD by riboflavin kinases. Animals were allocated in control group (n = 7), thyroidectomized rats (n = 6), rats with diet deficient in vitamin B2, B9, B12, choline and methionine (n = 7), thyroidectomized rats with deficient diet (n = 9). Homocysteine was decreased in operated rats (2.6 +/- 1.01 vs. 4.05 +/- 1.0 mumol/L, P = 0.02) and increased in deficient diet rats (29.56 +/- 4.52 vs. 4.05 +/- 1.0 micromol/L, P = 0.001), when compared to control group. Erythrocyte-Glutathione-Reductase-Activation-Coefficient (index of FAD deficiency) was increased in thyroidectomized or deficient diet rats (P = 0.004 for both). Methylenetetrahydrofolate-reductase and methionine-synthase activities were decreased in thyroidectomized rats but not in those subjected to deficient diet. Cystathionine-beta-synthase was increased only in operated rats. Taken together, these results showed a defective re-methylation in surgical hypothyroidism, which was due in part to a defective synthesis of vitamin B2 coenzymes.

Originally Posted by Trouble

Take the selenium with vit E, never take it with vit C - it makes it toxic.

How about a MultiVit pill, where selenium and VitC are in the same pill?

I would hope that the multi vit is compounded to prevent their interaction.

Good question. Most likely, the acid sensitive metals and minerals are microencapulated or bound up in steric acid to prevent cross reactions.

What is a good zinc:copper ratio?

"Animal and human evidence suggests that an adequate Zinc-to-Copper ratio should be of about ten to one. Studies using a excessive balance of 23.5 to 1 ratio led to reductions in levels of copper-based antioxidants, increased total and LDL cholesterol and caused abnormalities in cardiac function. "

So its possible that severe hypothyroidism (gland not being removed0 could alter methione synthase and over activate CBS resulting in lower homocysteine levels.

Since you have periodic treatment with radioisotope for your thyroid problems, you may consider the plausability that selenium is protective of other tissues during this treatment.


Selenium as radioprotector in head and neck cancer patients – first clinical results J. Büntzel, M. Glatzel, K. Kisters, R. Mücke, F. Bruns, . Schönekaes und O. Micke. AKTE e.V., Bielefeld, Germany. Trace Elements and Electrolytes, Volume 23(3):178-180 2006.

Objective: A majority of radiotherapy patients is using complementary and alternative methods during anti-cancer treatment in order to improve the quality of life during this period. We investigate the influence of selenium substitution on the treatment toxicity (radiochemotherapy) in the group of head and neck cancer patients.

Material and methods: 31 patients received concomittant radiochemotherapy (2 Gy Single dose, 60 Gy total dose, Week 1 and 5 with daily carboplatin 70 mg/m2 about 5 days) because of their squamous cell carcinoma of the ENT region. All patients had performed primary surgery of the basic tumor and the regional lymph nodes. Additionally the patients got sodium selenite orally (1,000 mg on the days of radiochemotherapy and 500 mg an the days of radiotherapy alone).

Results: We observed severe mucositis in 7/31 (22%), severe xerostomia in 8/31 (26%), and resulting severe dysphagia in 2/31 (6%) of all patients. The Karnofsky performance status decreased from mean 85.5% to 30.4% at the end of radiochemotherapy. The median survival time was 21 month (range 2 – 62 month) after primary treatment.

Conclusion: This first pilot investigation has shown decreased incidences and grades of typical toxicities as mucositis and xerostomia if selenium was substituted during the anticancer therapy. Further investigations are necessary to support this hypothesis.

Originally Posted by Trouble

Increase your intake of vitamin C to 2-3 grams; 500 mg is a reptty modest dose per day (unless your doctor advises otherwise).

I recommend spreading the Vitamin C out throughout the day. 2 grams is considered the tolerable upper limit because large doses yield a lot of unabsorbed ascorbic acid which is metabolized by bacteria within the colon. This causes abdominal pain and sometimes osmotic diarrhea. It took me a few weeks to discover that it was vitamin C giving me cramps and gas. I was taking 2.6 grams divided in two doses.