Thread: hurt, again.

Well how much time did you take off the first and second time you injured this area?

i rested until the pain subsided. the 2nd time was much longer. i definately think something is wrong but ican't get past the fact that im only 20 (just turned) and i have a problem of this magnitude already, just doesn't make sense.

whatever, im just going to train my upper body for the time being and avoid anything using the hips/spinal loading. sucks, but im not gunna mangle myself.

When you are injured you have to take the time off. You should have gone to a sports Doc the second time and taken his advice. My bet is you need to take 3 months off.....sounds like a long time but it's not.

That shit is a major bummer. Could it be a hernia?

Your chiropractor mention that you have a lumbar subluxation? Sure as hell looks like it from your photos. I agree with Foreman - you need more time off, and you also need to work on mid and lower back exercises, and core stabilization exercises before you return to doing deads.

If you are under a chiro's care, you defer to him first, not us, for advice.

Trouble - chiro did not mention a subluxation at all. why do you immediately assume i need to work on core stabilization exercises? my abdominals/lower back are always being worked, whether weight training or doing martial arts (line drills).

time off is unavoidable at this point. but this is the third time this has happened. taking time off has just delayed the reoccurences not actually fixed the problem.

FYI - my chiro seems to be uninterested in digging deeper and finding out whats really wrong.

My advice:

time off let things heal.

when you go back to training...don't do deadlifts and don't do back squats....front squats are great, single leg RDLs are an excellent way to build hip strength, trap bar squats might be a good option and any single leg hip and knee extension variation (split squat, lunge, step up, bulgarian squat).

1) you are a tall guy. For some people, some of these lifts just aren't good lifts. ya know? Not like, you can't do it...you can...but, for some reason, for your body (not that it applies to all tall guys), for your structure, these lifts don't seem to be working.

2) you aren't competining in powerlifting so does it matter what you back squat and deadlift?

3) you are more of an athlete (looking to MMA)...train your single leg strength as a means to build up hip power and stability.


Some people have lifts that just don't work. For me it is good mornings....can I do them? yes. But, it doesn't feel right in my back...ever...no matter how perfect the form is. So, I drop it into a catergory of "risk is greater then reward" and I don't do them anymore. No biggie. I do more RDLs, that's all.

Originally Posted by P-funk

single leg RDLs are an excellent way to build hip strength,

How do you do these? Is the non-working leg held in the air or is it supported on something, such as a bench behind you?

Originally Posted by Triple Threat

How do you do these? Is the non-working leg held in the air or is it supported on something, such as a bench behind you?

supporting yourself defeats the purpose.

thanks P, you made me feel better. lol. your right, i love doing deads and squats and its always fun to impress myself with what I do but i suppose my body mechanics were just not meant for them.

single leg RDL's with 2 kettlebells is alright? Cool. As long as I can adequately train my pchain and my hips I'll be happy.

no more direct loading of the spine for me. this will make my training interesting. thanks all.

Originally Posted by P-funk

supporting yourself defeats the purpose.

Only 1 DB? Are we supposed to? I've been using two DB's (40-50 lbs) for reps. It's more challenging but i am able to do it so is that ok or should i only be doing 1?

Originally Posted by fUnc17

thanks P, you made me feel better. lol. your right, i love doing deads and squats and its always fun to impress myself with what I do but i suppose my body mechanics were just not meant for them.

single leg RDL's with 2 kettlebells is alright? Cool. As long as I can adequately train my pchain and my hips I'll be happy.

no more direct loading of the spine for me. this will make my training interesting. thanks all.

KBs are fine.

front squatting will take some of that pressure away from the lumbar and use more quads because of the loading....you may try that as well.

Only 1 DB? Are we supposed to? I've been using two DB's (40-50 lbs) for reps. It's more challenging but i am able to do it so is that ok or should i only be doing 1?

i think one arm is damn hard. 2 DBs is fine. I like to go back and forth between both. you can even try it with a BB.

You ask why I suggest further strengthening of the core: You have a very small waist, Obliques are small, lower back is small. Think of the loading stress transfer along the spine from hips to mid back as you straighten up. If you trunk is long, then you will feel that compression stress in the lower spine if your gut and lower back aren't sucked in and taking that loading force as well, they support it.

Like Pat, I and Foreman said, you need to let that lower back rest.

Any other deadlift alternatives that func17 can use, Patrick? (beyond the front squats).

Originally Posted by Trouble

Any other deadlift alternatives that func17 can use, Patrick? (beyond the front squats).

trap bar.

Since he is tall, the moment arm is really long for his deadlifts and squats. Not that it is bad and that tall people can't do it....but for him it just might not be working out.....The trap bar is going to set the weight back closer to his center of gravity, and allow him to lift in a more natural way, then having the bar out in front of him. Trap bar RDLs are also effective and they take away that long external moment arm as well.

Perfecto! Thats what I thought too, his verical axis is long, and with wide shoulders he also has a long horizonal axis he is pullling againts. If his midsection isn't exceptionally strong, he's got compressive problems, most notable if that spinal column is canted slightly - and that, is my read, from looking at his back photos - there is a right to left (lateral sublux) in the lower back that just might be pinching the opposite side. That might give him more acral or hip girdle pain on one side than the other.

Gotta description and photo series of that trap bar RDL (is there a simple trap bar DL as well?)?

Thanks Patrick! You're a font of knowledge, as always.

yes, there is a trap bar deadlift....depending on how you set your trunk angle and how far back you stick your a$$, you will be in more of a deadlift or a squat type of movement. I just call it a deadlift either way because you are picking up dead weight off the floor.

it is possible that his midsection/lower back could use some conditioning....or "re-conditioning" after the injury the 1st adn 2nd times. The biggest problem is that people get hurt, and even after they take a significant amount of time off, they do nothing to RE-condition the area of injury. they jump right back into the same old. Where as, if they took some time to re-condition, restore joint proprioception, restore proper arthokinematics, they would be much better off.....the problem with that...it takes an extra 4-6 weeks of re-conditioning and most are impatient and want to jump right into the game again.

Thanks all. this is what I will do

1. Rest
2. get another opinion (either another chiro or a sports doc)
3. When I know what it is and pain is relieved, i'll come back and train only upper body, and recondition my core (front & back)
4. After 5 weeks of conditioning my core, introduce lower body work excluding back squats and deadlifts, and continue to train core (more volume than i was doing)

Trouble - I see what your saying, and yes it does feel as though it is a subluxation. one side IS being pinched (only felt it on one side last time it was injured) but this time it is entirely in my tailbone/groin/ and sometimes in my right calf depending on if im sitting or standing.

Also, something else I feel that is noteworthy. I can position myself in such a way when I lay down that I can crack my lower back (not the area of pain, but just above) i crack one side, reposition on the other side and the other side cracks. Could this be a side affect of the subluxation? (something i will ask the new chrio/sports doc)

what kind of "core" training do you do at the moment? or were you doing?

I did core 3 days a week at jiu jitsu, nothing weighted. I can't really explain the exercises we do, it would take all day, but just know we work the shit out of our cores and sometimes i cant finish the line drills it hurts so much. after sparring we do over 500 crunches, with ass against the wall and after that stretch out our lower backs/hips/etc.

Aside from all the compound movements, nothing in the weightroom. Did reverse hypers but I really wouldnt consider that core. I was under the impression I was doing enough maybe I was wrong.

Originally Posted by P-funk

what kind of "core" training do you do at the moment? or were you doing?

What core workouts would you recommend?

My back is in pieces too (P knows) and now its not only my back, but my glutes and hamstrings are problems too.

I havent done lower body in maybe 2 months now. Are there some specific core workouts that would be good for me? Bridges, Supermans?

fuNC-I know what you mean with all this. I cant stand not doing lower body, but its one of those "check your pride at the door" excuses. Trap bar deadlifts have never been done by me nor Front Squats. Trap deads look pretty self-explanatory, but I am not sure about front squats.

Originally Posted by AKIRA

What core workouts would you recommend?

My back is in pieces too (P knows) and now its not only my back, but my glutes and hamstrings are problems too.

I havent done lower body in maybe 2 months now. Are there some specific core workouts that would be good for me? Bridges, Supermans?

fuNC-I know what you mean with all this. I cant stand not doing lower body, but its one of those "check your pride at the door" excuses. Trap bar deadlifts have never been done by me nor Front Squats. Trap deads look pretty self-explanatory, but I am not sure about front squats.

Last time I did trap bar deads, was about 2 yrs ago. Did them with the rubber oly plates, they were cool, I remember them being more quad intensive for some reason. Front squats were never a problem for me.

Bridges i do before every workout to warm up, as well in jiu jitsu. My warmup is extensive in BJJ. in the weight room i start off with Bridges, walking knee tucks, ice skater lunges, broom stick rotations (sp, go all the way around my shoulder axis), wall retractions. then workout, then stretch staticly afterwards, almost the same as BJJ but we do much more in bjj, probably 3 times as much as I do in the weight room, and stretch afterwards as well.

Another kick ass thread!

This discussion is now way out of my league - but squarely in P-funks area of expertise. Lucky us that we have someone as knowledgable!

Func17 - there's a trigger point in your sacrum that is being activated - I think its indicating that your sciatic nerve is impinged, and maybe (again, not my forte here) you are describing Piriformis syndrome.

Patrick may be able to clarify, I also defer to him on reconditioning recommendations. As far as some guesswork at your injury goes - I'm pretty sure that Patrick will say that it can't be done reliably over the internet. Do get a second opion from another chiro.

Originally Posted by fUnc17

I did core 3 days a week at jiu jitsu, nothing weighted. I can't really explain the exercises we do, it would take all day, but just know we work the shit out of our cores and sometimes i cant finish the line drills it hurts so much. after sparring we do over 500 crunches, with ass against the wall and after that stretch out our lower backs/hips/etc.

Aside from all the compound movements, nothing in the weightroom. Did reverse hypers but I really wouldnt consider that core. I was under the impression I was doing enough maybe I was wrong.

I have to disagree with JJ working your core...

func,

reverse hypers are a core movement...defenitly. Core is not just abs and lower back it is the entire muculature of the lumbo-pelvic hip complex as well as the thoracic spine.

When looking at the lower back and problems that arise, it is not ALWAYS that the lower back is weak. In fact, more often then not, it is more complicated then that. What you need to look at is tightness within the hip musculature, as well as tightness within the lats. the lats, attach into the thoracolumbar fascia as well as into the the thoracic vertabrae. Because of their atachment into the thoracolumbar fascia, they can exert an extension torque on the lumbar spine....it is for this reason that if someone is tight in the lats, when said individual raises their arm overhead, they lean their upper body back AND they go into an anterior pelvic tilt.

So, you need to determine tightness and weakness. What position is your pelvis in? What is tight? Sounds like, if the pain is in the right glute, radiating, down the leg into the calve, it might be some tight external rotatores, piriformis syndrome etc....

Also, looking deeper into your core traininer....are all those crunches necessary? Well, sometimes, crunches can be the worst thing a person can do....expecially a tall person! usually, tall people will perform the crunch and because of a longer torso length, will try and go a further distance because they think they have to get a certain height off the floor. This then creates mobility in the lumbar spine...an area were we want stability! So, you increase mobility within' the lumbar vertabrae and take away their ability to properly support the area. Also, depending, posturally, the rectus abdominus inserts into ribs 5-7 and the xyphoiod process. by doing excess crunches, this can create a downward pull on the thoracic cavity, creating a greater amount of thoracic kyphosis, and directly affect not only posture, but force absorpion within the spine. again, for a tall person, because the moment arm is so long, this could be augmented. Another problem with this is that, the rectus abdominus tends to get over active and take over for the obliques. the obliques are extremely important to neutralize the pelvis and provide stability during movement. so, by doing more abdominal work in the sagital plane (like crunches) you are not effectively working those obliques to do their task properly.

I would ditch the crunches and place more exercises like bird dogs and plank type movements into your core training. Rotational work will be helpful to hit the obliques.

You can also do McGill crunches (named for Stuart McGill, the great back specialist).

To perform these, lie on the floor, feet flatm knees bent, like a typical sit up position (this is called the hook lying position). From there, take your hands and place them underneath your lower back, under the small of your back. This is to prevent you from rounding the lower back (flexion) and creating poor postural alignment. From there, take one leg and extend it out straight so that the foot is about an inch or 2 above the ground). Now, perform the crunch, only as far up as you can control, while maintaining that good spinal alignment, pause at the top for a 3 count. move back down.

I think I understand BDs point. My dojo (TKD) instructors had us doing long sessions of pushups (not bad), jumping jacks (useless), sit ups (old form, almost useless), and inner leg stretches (incorrect form). I got the evil eye from these instructors because I finally broke rank and told them, quietly on the side, that they didn't know shit about conditioning and quickly suggested alternatives. I was told just as quietly to either shut up or leave.

I found hypers, reverse hypers, planks, and various pilates movements to be very helpful.

yea, it is hard to change peoples minds about that stuff because that is "how they have always done it". It is like the football coach that is still testing his athletes on the 2 mile run (even though we know that a 2 mile run is not specific to football). When asked why he still does it, he replies "because that is how we have always done it". Fear of change is a tough thing for some people.

update: went to a sports doc yesterday, he knew exactly what i was saying when i explained to him my symptoms, he knew my right leg is the leg with more problems (more pain, discomfort..etc.) he was extremely helpful, real cool guy.

for the time being he put me on an anti inflammitory, a muscle relaxer, and a pain killer (if i need it, i think its called ultumatem).

Im scheduled for an xray. he feels an MRI gives too much info, he wants to see where my bones are first. and im also scheduled for a nerve test, to see where exactly the problem lies

all in all, he said the problem i have is very common (seemed as though it was because he was finishing my sentences). And i'd be as good as new when he's done which was good to hear.

Good, thanks for the update.

Please keep us informed of your progress; it should be interesting to hear of your sports medicine physicians conclusions and recommendations (and how they compare to our comments here).