Biggly

You know, I was just guessing at the "let's get my sistas to gang up on him" and presumed you'd gone running off to get your girly friends from this site - but just noticed both posters supporting you have post counts of exactly "1"

Are you actually joining under different names to back yourself up or something? Because if so that is seriously SAD.

And creepy.


B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

gixxer0.6g

I must be bored at work because I've managed to read this whole thing and I think it would have been a waste of time if I didn't chime in with my two pennies. Biggy, you seem to know what you're talking about but you're arguing with an obvious professional who knows a ton more then you. I’m with her on the scale. It’s a vital tool to keep you honest and give you a day-to-day measure of your progress. Sure, some days you’ll put on some water weight and some days you’ll be lighter but over the long haul it’s going to track your progress…especially for women.

I myself was an overweight kid and weigh the same right now as I did in the 6th grade. The only difference is I’m a foot taller. I’m now down to single digit fat percentages and I did this by exactly what she’s talking about. I weight myself every day and write it down and it gives me a great idea of what I'm doing right/wrong in my programs. She knows her stuff and you could learn a lot from her.

fufu

On the whole scale arguement -

Weighing yourself everyday is not healthy behavior IMO. Significant changes in body composition do not happen daily. Notable changes occur in longer time periods. I agree, checking your weight on the scale in a scheduled manner is a good method to make sure you are on track with progress. Along with what I previously stated, included with the weight fluctuations of water retention, weighing yourself everyday serves more negative than positive (generally). It can be disillusioning to watch stare at those numbers everyday. I think it is a fair comparison to chronic self imaging and the progression of body dysmorphia. Staring at your body critically everyday can significantly effect the way you "really" look to yourself.

I didn't read through the entirety of everyone's arguements so I may be reiterating some opinions.

fufu's 1337 Journal

Your diet will set you free.

Built

Gixxer, that's great!

I've met more than a few people who have won this battle - all of us have used the scale as a tool for success.

So wonderful that you were able to get your weight under your own control while you were young.

Built

Have you ever been overweight? I don't mean a few pounds - I mean medically obese, and suffering the health effects that come from it?

Biggly

I try not to go on about my own software here; I consider the sig link is plenty enough but sometimes I just have to say something. I am FULLY aware that tracking over time is vital, that is a major point of what Biggly does, graphing your gross weight, lean body mass and physicial measurements, along with skinfolds, calorie intake, carbs, protein etc etc.

Along with workouts etc.

So yes, spotting trends and knowing in advance you're going to swell a bit at a certain time is helpful - but that still doesn't answer the skinfold thing. Can someone actually confirm that a woman's skinfold increases during this water bloat or not?

If so I'd like to know that. If not then my point stands, scales alone just tell you your gross weight, which is on its own is just a number. Like an aircraft cockpit panel that tells you your height but gives no indication which direction you're headed.

I can go zero carbs for 3 days and drop 5lbs - but it's mostly water weight. But it's working right, lost 5lbs!? No, the calipers say "nee nee, no change".

But eat too many carbs and I gain fat - both the scales AND the calipers say "Oi! Cut the carbs!"

No-one's saying don't use scales, just use other methods as well. Scales only tell you your weight. Nothing else.

I drink a large latte I just gained a pound. I take a dump I just lost a pound. And? Tell that to skinfold calipers. You get gas you belly measurement goes up. Tell that to the calipers? Break wind your belly measurement goes down. And the calipers?

Weight is a useful measure but relying on weight alone can be misleading. Ignoring cardio, even though I'm the first to say it should also not be done by itself, is plain silly. Sure, some people can get slim without cardio, many different things can work if done intensely enough or if you're not used to them but thousands upon thousands of people out there have stripped the fat off their bodies - with cardio.

Yes, it can make you hungry. Of course it does, because you're burning calories.

Relying purely on weight lifting is as daft as relying purely on cardio, it takes both to build a great body. To rely purely on scales to track your progress is also too simplistic.

The ridiculous thing is on the whole we agree with each other, women should do more weights, less cardio and monitor what works best for them over a period of time. Yes.

But to throw away such powerful tools as calipers and cardio? No.

To ignore the fact that small muscle gains can make up the weight difference to the point that the scales might not move? That's so well-known it's a cliche.

This thread is boring me now as it seems more a matter of scoring points than actually helping the OP.




B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

gixxer0.6g

B, you're missing the point because I'll bet you've never been obese. We're not talking about a pound here or a pound there. We're talking 20 lbs here and 20 lbs there. We are talking MAJOR weight loss. And there are several tools to measure this....and a really good one for obese people is the scale. Watch the Biggest loser. These are truly obese people and the one and only tool the use to measure their success is the scale. And has it worked? It's probably one of the most successful programs out there. Do they do cardio? Yes of course, but I'll bet you the majority of their weight loss and figure changes comes from their strength training. I myself think of cardio simply as a health improver, not a fat burner.

B, you've got some great info and the only reason I'm arguing with you is because I disagree with you fully when you say the scale is useless. It's the one thing all people have and one of the best tools to monitor your WEIGHT LOSS.

fufu

Nope.

Technically, I have. In actuality, no.

fufu's 1337 Journal

Your diet will set you free.

Triple Threat

Dane has a join date of May 2006.

Biggly

Yeah and the spam for a porn site this week had the same join date, Vbulletin isn't too great on that stuff. Who joins a site and doesn't post anything for 2 years?

Wrong Join Date Found - Can This Be Corrected? [Archive] - vBulletin Community Forum

Regardless, volume or shouting doesn't alter the facts nor answer the only question this thread has left for me - does water bloating affect skinfold measurements?

Yes or no?

If no-one knows then fine but I've no desire to keep arguing when I've made my points known. If someone wants to follow the advice of ignoring cardio and only using bathroom scales for guidance, fine. I've said my bit, they can get on with it.


B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Biggly

Blackwell Synergy - Scand J Med Sci Sports, Volume 1 Issue 3 Page 147-150, September 1991 (Article Abstract)

Fluctuations in regulatory hormones, body temperature and other physiological mechanisms during the menstrual cycle cause individual symptoms, including a perceived weight gain. This study determined the effects of a normal menstrual cycle on body weight, percentage body fat (% fat by hydrostatic weighing), respiratory measures of vital capacity and residual volume by spirometry, and the sum of 7 skinfolds (triceps, subscapula, axilla, chest, suprailium, abdomen and thigh). Twenty regularly menstruating (23- to 35-d cycles) subjects (aged 20–30 years) volunteered for this study. Measures were duplicated on days 1, 7, 14, 21 and 28 after the onset of menstrual flow. Repeated-measures analysis of variance indicated no significant differences for any measured parameter between the 5 assigned days. Therefore, body composition in this age group was not affected by normal menstruation.

Never mind.



B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Dane

Thank you for noticing--I was just getting ready to point that out.

Lots of people--we're called "Lurkers". I am a member of many fitness boards where I just read or occasionally lurk, and an active member of a handful where I spend most of my posting dollars. I joined this particular board long ago, but the atmosphere hadn't been one I felt much like contributing to. Until now.

I've e-known Built for almost 4 years, and her information has always been quality stuff, practical and science based. She's helped me learn to apply the knowledge to myself--without the aid of a paid trainer I've dropped 70# of weight in the past year, and built a strong muscle base.

She knows her stuff, and when I found out that Prince had recruited her from another board to mod this one, I decided to follow her over here and give this place another chance.

Built definitely doesn't need ANY help in "defending" herself--she has nothing to defend! But some of the stuff you were spouting, Biggly....... well you got me, you pulled me out of LurkDom.



No one said to throw away calipers or cardio. The whole cardio argument is retarded--Built was trying to make a point that people trying to cut should focus on DIET to lose weight, LIFTING to ensure that more of that weight lost will be fat and not muscle, and THEN CARDIO as an afterthought, as a little extra calorie burn.

The thing about calipers is that a single-site measurement isn't as accurate for women, because of our fat distribution, not to mention you need to have someone who's really good at using them to take your measurements consistently. I don't have that at home--the scale is a much better indicator for me. As for calipers--really, all I need to know is to look in the mirror--Fat?/NotFat? If the scale is going down, I'm lifting heavy, and my protein rquirements are being met, then that's all I need to know.
I believe it does--but I'm no expert and don't have any studies on hand to back me up at the moment. When I visit Lyle's board, I'll see if he has any research I can toss your way. Something to consider--if water doesn't affect skinfold measurements, then why do BB'ers try to avoid coming in "smooth"? Do you know what that means?

Biggly

Yes, it means avoiding carbs/creatine due to the water retention but that's below the skin and not usually picked up by calipers.

If I'm wrong on that or you get more information please do tell.

Even scales have to be used consistently, such as first thing in the morning. Single-point measuring, usually over the hip, is remarkably accurate for both sexes but why restrict yourself to single point? Some methods use 7 points, including over the shoulder blade which is tricky by yourself but there are other multi-point methods that can be done alone. If anything doing it yourself can be more consistent, as you tend to do the same thing every time. Getting someone else to do it may be more accurate technically but the whole point is simply to monitor trends and changes over time. That doesn't require much precision.

Nor do you really need a helping hand with a tape measure.

As for the mirror, yes, valuable things, especially for spinach in your teeth. However for a monitoring system they suck, badly. How you look will depend very much on how you feel at the time. If you just skipped a workout and feel lethargic I guarantee you that you'll look like crap in the mirror. If you know you've been working out hard lately and you just broke your bench record, you'll look so good it's freaky.

That's why, especially in this age of cheap digital photography, I urge peope to take pics. Comparing one pic to another taken in the same manner is proof positive, regardless of your mood at the time. A snappy boss and a long commute can put 10lbs on - in the mirror but not the camera. Cameras don't care what mood you're in, they just record what's there.

Likewise scales don't care about your bench record, your stronger bones, better endurance, slimmer waist and firmer arms, they just record gross weight.

OK, let me give an example. Recently I did the anabolic burst, it's where you basically starve yourself silly for a couple of weeks then stuff yourself stupid for a couple of weeks. The ratio between muscle lost and gained compared to fat lost and gained, mostly due to the crazy hormone swings you create, means in theory you gain muscle and lose fat, as an overall balance at the end. That's the plan.

Monitoring closely, with scales, calipers and tape. I was able to easily spot the point when it was no longer just fat weight coming off, at which point I piled on the food and was able to again spot when it was not just lean tissue being added. The system worked for me, not 14 days by 14 days, more like 9 days by 10 for me personally. Had I relied on nothing but scales when do I quit cutting? I was losing weight all the time, how far should I have gone?

BECAUSE I was using calipers and a tape as well I could spot the switchover, when my body went beyond using fat reserves - a scale could not tell me that.

Same with bulking.

Sure, if you're a fat blimp and just want to shed pounds, a scale will work. No need for anything fancy when you're that fat, just cut down on calories and you can't help but lose weight. So if we're just talking slimming, fine, diet and scales.

If you're talking balancing fat loss with muscle growth, that takes a little more care and balancing, but again not so much at high fat levels. The body is not good at using stored fat for muscle growth but you don't need to keep the calories so high either.

OK let's compromise - if you're a fat blimp and want to shed weight, diet and scales will do. If you're already fairly lean and wish to get ripped and muscular, scales and diet, even with working out, is too blunt a method. You might still get there but can easily head in the wrong direction or just quit making gains. Certainly you'll have to choose between bulking or cutting, I don't see how you could walk the tight-rope of holding onto gains while shedding fat if your only guide is a bathroom scale.

For a lot of people just cutting calories and getting slim is all they desire - or need.

Throw in some weight training and its even better, sure.

But if that's all you've got in your entire arsenal of tricks and techniques, it aint gonna get you much beyond 'slim'. If you're lucky and that's all your genetics required. We don't hear so much from those that failed.

I've far too many people who've struggled with weight, mostly guys it's true, that have spent a fortune on cutting supplements, worked out 5 or 6 days a week. "How much cardio do you do?" "Er.."

On the treadmill or elliptical a couple of times a week and hey, a 6 pack!

Who'd have thunk?


If anything women do too much cardio and should do more weights, true. Men are the opposite, they do more weights and little cardio. Both sexes benefit from doing a bit of the other.

But no, I don't accept the idea that 'cardio doesn't work' (or doesn't burn calories!). It DOES work, IF you mix it up a bit and don't do the same damn thing all the time. However the exact same thing applies to weightlifting, do the same thing all the time and that stops working too.



B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

B-Cubed

First, let me just say that if anyone does not NEED backup, it's Built. She's quite capable of decimating you all on her own. Personally, I find it hard to watch her credibility called into question by someone who quite clearly does not understand or refuses to understand what she is telling them.

As for the pound of fat vs. pound of muscle comment...you left yourself WIDE open for that one with these TWO statements.

Both of which demonstrate a lack of understanding of the relationship: density = mass/volume. That said,

I think you are referring to this post?

Again, your lack of understanding of the relationship between volume, mass, and density is astounding.

Here, let me elucidate it for you with some basic math.

The real question, as you put it, is the difference in volume. How much volume does a lb of fat take up verses how much volume does a lb of muscle take up? I assure you that the shape of this volume does not matter in the least.

Well, let's find out! 1 lbs = .45 kg (approximately). This will make our conversions easier, but we'll convert back at the end for all the non-metric people out there.

The density of fat is .9 g/ml = .9g/cm^3 = .0009 kg/cm^3.
The density of muscle is 1.06 g/ml = 1.06g/cm^3 = .00106 kg/cm^3.

How much space (that's volume folks) does a one lb of fat take up? How much space does one lb of muscle make up?

Well, since density = mass/volume, volume = mass/density, you with me?
So, for fat...
.45kg/(.0009kg/cm^3) = 505 cm^3
And for muscle...
.45kg/(.00106kg/cm^3) = 429 cm^3
Converting back into American units by dividing by (2.53 cm)^3 (since 2.53 cm = 1 inch), we have that 1 pound of fat takes up 30.8 in^3 and that 1 pound of muscle takes up 26.2 in^3.
So, in terms of cubes....
30.8 in^3 = a cube that is 3.13 inches per side.
26.2 in^3 = a cube that is 2.96 inches per side.
In terms of spheres....(volume of a sphere is 4/3*pi*r^3, just in case you forgot)..
1 lb of fat = 30.8 in^3 = sphere of radius r = 1.94 inches
1lb of muscle = 26.2 in^3 = sphere of radius r = 1.84 inches

Biggly

Of course the shape doesn't make a difference to the math; I just used a shape rather than a cube, because people aren't cube-shaped.

I also used the most appropriate shape, the closest to a muscle. I see you've used a cube and sphere, both of which hide the volume shift more than an actual limb or muscle shape. Whatever, I've already conceded the point regarding volume, though muscle certainly is heavier and has less volume as a result. That seems to be agreed, though the extent seems less than the vast majority of peeps seem to think. OK already, but about the idea that cardio doesn't burn calories and skinfolds versus scales alone?

For someone who doesn't need backup she seems to be getting some from the other forum.



B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

I am getting some nice backup <waves to her peeps and smiles>.

Nice to have you here.

bruisin

I think that you are just awesome, built!

I have learned more by reading your blog & by reading your posts here than you may ever realize!

thank you so much for all your hard work & dedication to offer these suggestions to all of us, much appreciated!

this post has also educated me so! I'm glad that this question was asked!

Built

bruisin - thank you so much for reading my blog! I'm delighted to have helped you.

Biggly

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

nadirmg

pay no heed to biggly, bruisin. he's got a couple of disorders.
penis envy for one. and built doesn't even have one.

w/o log
5'5" - currently bulking - 145lb on 5/16
weight goal I: 150 :: bench goal II:170 :: squat goal II: 250 :: weighted chin goal IV: +30 x 5 x 5

bruisin

I promise to overlook his thinly veiled attempts against built. Do you think it's not penis envy as much as it may be over success envy?

I don't care who the person is/isn't if they take the time to put so much effort into helping others, a thank you is the least we could say to them.

I have held many things before & have lost them all, but that which I have placed in Gods hands I still retain

nadirmg

heh, that's what i was alluding to

yeppers, built has helped me out a lot too! i'm using her 'baby got back' split routine and what i've learned from 'got built' has helped me improve my diet greatly.

w/o log
5'5" - currently bulking - 145lb on 5/16
weight goal I: 150 :: bench goal II:170 :: squat goal II: 250 :: weighted chin goal IV: +30 x 5 x 5