Dealing With Lower Back Issues

kyoun1e · 03-19-2009, 05:13 PM

Folks,

A few years ago I ruptured one of my lower discs bouncing off many moguls. To this day, this injury dogs me every now and then when I least expect it.

Now I know I'm an idiot for doing these, but I was doing deadlifts the other day and all of a sudden, I could just feel the lower back tighten as if somebody was turning a crank. This type of thing usually happens once every three to six months.

Depending on how tight this thing wants to hold, I can barely walk sometimes and at minimum can just hobble around. After a couple days of icing and maybe a trip to the chiropractor...poof...it's gone. At worse after a week. If I"m lucky in a couple days.

For all of you back pain sufferers, I have a few questions:

1. What do you do specifically to get over these little bumps in the road? Ice? Aleve? What else?

2. What do you do in the gym to help you prevent this from occuring?

3. What things have you abandoned completely at the gym to make sure it doesn't occur?

As for 3., I know I'm tempting fate. I've sworn never to do deadlifts again. I just started squats and I'm wondering if that is a no no. I can't image that my 65 lb sitting shoulder presses are any good for spine compression either.

I don't want to be a wuss, but I also don't want to be stupid.

Very curious what other long-time sufferers are doing here.

Thanks.

KY

fufu · 03-19-2009, 08:39 PM

As far as specifics go, I cannot suggest anything. I do suggest seeing a physical therapist who can give you practical advice on training.

As finding what is good for you, that is subject to the individual. With injuries, you often have to find what personally works pain free for you. Of course with a physical therapist, you can work to do things that once gave you pain, without pain.

The old standby is - if it hurts, don't do it, but find out why.

However, some exercises are just no good for an individual, regardless of how balanced they are physically.

kyoun1e · 03-20-2009, 08:29 AM

For me, my lower back behaves as if there's nothing going on for months, but then...boom. Out of nowhere it will lock up and have me out of commission for a few days. But then it's back to normal and I'm back in the gym.

I guess this is good news / bad news. Good news in that my episodes are infrequent. Bad news in that once the bump in the road has passed I go back to doing what I normally do (which maybe means I go back to doing things I SHOULDN'T do).

Curious if anyone else's lower back behaves the same way.

KY

Triple Threat · 03-20-2009, 10:30 AM

I sometimes get some lower back stiffness the day after heavy DLs, but I don't get lingering injuries. Sorry that I can't be of more help.

largepkg · 03-20-2009, 11:56 AM

I have a fairly extensive history of back issues. I fractured my L4, S1 playing racket ball of all things and was in a brace for 6 months. After that I laterally herniated my L4, and L5 again playing racket ball.

The herniation was horrid as far as pain goes. I dealt with it for over a year trying to avoid surgery. I ended up getting three epidural treatments that were like a miracle treatment. I had no issues since. That was 7 years ago.

At first I started lifting real light and wouldn't dare go near anything that stressed my back. My good friend is a physical therapist and started working with me on core strengthening movements and yes DL's were part of it. Very light of course but I had to start somewhere. He had me focusing on lower back, abs, and posterior chain movements and gradually move the weight up.

I'm fairly strong now because of it with no back issues to speak of. Prior to working with him I never lifted or went to the gym. i guess you could say he's responsible for the passion I have now with the iron.

Hope this helps.

kyoun1e · 03-20-2009, 12:15 PM

Wow.

I'd be interested to know exactly what you're doing to strengthen your core / lower back.

Once I fully get over this hump, I'm going to be doing the following but with lower weight:

* Back squats (had been moving aggressively higher in weight; Going to cool it)
* Deadlifts -- maybe single leg or something; VERY LIGHT
* Leg Lunges
* Abs of all kinds
* Back stretches...which I have been doing since my injury

I want to strengthen this area so I can minimize the risk of injury for the rest of my life.

Unfortunately, I seem to be my own worst enemy. I tend to get amnesia once I recover. Next thing you know, I'm trying to do olympic deadlifts or something.

Thanks.

KY

**P-funk** · 03-20-2009, 10:24 PM

I recommend:

a) getting someone to work on the soft tissue to help decrease the muscles that have tightened up.

b) find a good strength coach or someone that can assess you because you have no idea what the hell you are doing. The fact that you want to go back to those movements (which you shouldn't until someone looks at your form and evaluates hip/ankle mobility and lumbar stability) and the fact that you are doing back stretches and don't seem to have a clue about how to develop proper core function scares the shit out of me.

patrick

chobby192 · 03-21-2009, 12:46 AM

I have injured my lower back twice so far: once at my work and once when working out at home. During my first injury, my employer sent me to the physical therapy for about two months, who showed me how to do several stretchings for my back. Those stretching techniques worked very well. For my second injury, I did the same stretchings that my hot PT showed me and worked out fine. I think pain pills don't work for me so I didn't take any.

kyoun1e · 03-21-2009, 06:20 AM

P-Funk,

On the money as usual.

I actually used to go to a chiropractor regularly. This guy did his usual chiro tricks but also essentially gave me a deep muscle beating to loosen things up. I usually walked out of their in more (good) pain than when I arrived.

I stopped going because a) it gets addictive, b) cost, and c) I found that icing and stretching seemed to get the job done...although it takes a day or two longer.

As for core strengthening...yup...I should probably sit down with a professional on this specific objective before I do any of this again.

You mentioned previously that back squats were BAD for someone with a lower back issue. I'm surprised because I haven't felt any stress there doing these. Definitely/Obviously on the deadlift.

Damnit...was just starting to get into legs/core...now this.

KY

**P-funk** · 03-21-2009, 08:32 AM

Sounds like the chiro was ripping you off. That is why I hate most in that profession - "come back once a week for the rest of your life if you want to feel better." The goal should be to help you become independent.

Even with soft tissue work, I tell people that my goal is to enhance the quality of soft tissue to give them sort of a "break in the action". With that break in the action, we have this small window of opportunity to enhance the way we move and correct the problem. So we have to take advantage of it so that they don't have to rely on me once a month for the rest of their lives to make them feel better.

Determine the problem, correct the problem, move on.

Where is MA do you live? I know some people near the boston area (waltham).

patrick

kyoun1e · 03-21-2009, 12:45 PM

I'm on the south shore, Scituate, MA. Although I work in Boston...that's where my last two chiros are located.

KY

**P-funk** · 03-21-2009, 12:56 PM

I'll send you a PM.

patrick

kyoun1e · 03-22-2009, 06:10 PM

Amazing. Back pain gone.

Poof.

It's crazy how this comes (and literally cripples me for a day or so) and then goes.

That said, gotta strengthen the core.

What do you think of these types of ab / stabilization exercises?

* Woodchops
* Plank
* Push Ups (static holds...3 pt stance...staggered hands...T push up)
* DB Pullins
* Swiss ball step off

KY

**Prince** · 03-22-2009, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoun1e

Folks,

A few years ago I ruptured one of my lower discs bouncing off many moguls.

ruptured it? please explain... also this was determined by an MRI?

the reason I ask is I herniated my S1/L5 discs few years ago, so I have a bit of insight.

**Built** · 03-23-2009, 01:32 AM

Prince, I'd be interested to hear your insight - I have anterolisthesis of L5 over S1, which functionally feels like a herniated disc there.

My work-arounds have included going a little lighter and a little higher-rep on some of my lower-body work - I do fronts instead of back squats for most of my work, ditched heavy rack pulls and now stick to RDLs for my pulling movements.

Also, stand to work that I used to train seated - for example, Arnies, or any other heavy pushing movements.

kyoun1e · 03-23-2009, 06:29 AM

Prince,

Yes indeed. Ruptured. MRI confirmed. Caused by the trauma of going down a double black diamond mogual trail...backwards.

This was probably 5-6 years ago at this point. It took about 6-9 months to rid myself of the most serious issues. That said, lower back spasms dog me every now and then. I'd probably say once every three to four months I get spasms that lock my lower back up to a point where I can hardly walk or stand up straight for 24-48 hours. It's like someone took a two by four and bolted it to either side of my butt.

The last two episodes have been caused by a) Sitting rows, and b) Deadlifts.

For example, tuesday my lower back locked up during deadlifts. Wed could hardly move. Thursday a little better to the point I could do some cardio and lift light. Friday and Saturday a lot more improvement. Sunday...poof...gone.

If you have any specific recommendations on exercises to stengthen the core I"m all ears. Or ideas on what should be AVOIDED.

Thanks.

KY

**Prince** · 03-23-2009, 11:39 AM

ok, so if it truly ruptured then you had surgery, right?

kyoun1e · 03-23-2009, 12:56 PM

No surgery.

My disc was herniated which I believe is the exact same thing as ruptured. Meaning, fluid burst out of the disc and put pressure on the sciatic nerve which then sent pain down my leg.

The Dr's first reaction was, "Wow. You have a problem here. Should probably have surgery." I then went to a back specialist who said that the surgery was an option, but of course there's risk anytime you open up your spine. He said the course of action is dependant on pain tolerance since disc hernation is often a "princess and the pea" situation -- if you can take the pain, go therapy...if you can't, go surgery.

I chose therapy and time.

What I think happens now is that the muscles that were impacted by this herniation have been scarred or something. It's a weak spot. It seems like when all thinks are going crappy (like I'm sick...or stressed at work, etc.) my back will join the fun and lock up down there.

So that's the scoop.

Just started doing some glut stretches today along with 3 pt staggered hand push up holds as a start for strengthening the core.

KY

**Prince** · 03-23-2009, 04:50 PM

by ruptured I thought you meant fluid was actually leaking from the disk.

what did you do for therapy?

kyoun1e · 03-23-2009, 05:32 PM

Well, right. Fluid must have leaked out because that's what puts pressure on the sciatic nerve.

Therapy was kinda a joke. Did a lot of exercises, some electro stimulus, aided stretching, etc. After like two weeks I bailed and just did it myself. I was pretty diligent about doing the stretches in the months after and I'm sure it helped.

To be honest, with disc situations it seems like it's all about time. If you have the time, the fluid will eventually dry up a little and also "retreat" away from the nerve by doing the proper exercises.

That said, there still must be damage there because it wacks me every now and then. So if it's going to be with me the rest of my life, I've got to try to minimize this with the proper core training.

KY

Hoglander · 03-23-2009, 11:12 PM

As counter intuitive as it seems... I lift as much as I feel I can get away with.

It's the reason I lift. Years of lower back pain that popped up every few months decreased my quality of life.

I feel the devil is in the details. I mean, what works for me might screw you up. I'm just saying it's a thin line you walk but IMHO you are on the right course.

Learn everything you can learn. BUT!! be an expert on your own body. NO ONE else can know what you know. Be your own best expert.

**P-funk** · 03-23-2009, 11:59 PM

Sounds like your therapy was crap! You need to find someone who knows what they are doing with regard to getting you back on track.

Here are some recent blog entries I have done on back pain. Two are research reviews and one is a review of a New York Times article which clearly shows the idiotic stance that the medical community takes on back pain.

enjoy:

Medical community nonsense - Got Pain? Live with it! « OSP Blog
Research Review: Resistance Training is Helpful in the Management of Low Back Pain « OSP Blog
Research Review: Massage & Exercise Together Are Effective For Subacute Back Pain « OSP Blog

Patrick

**Prince** · 03-24-2009, 01:02 PM

I herniated my S1/L5 disc pretty bad, I was almost bed ridden due to excruciating pain shooting down my left leg. I was taking about 16 Advil's per day along with a couple of Rx's for pain.

I did A LOT of online research and decided that I would avoid back surgery at all costs. My MRI revealed the herniated disk as well as a bulging L4/L5 disc. I made an appointment with a surgeon and discussed my options, he agreed to give it a couple of months and use other methods of therapy before resorting to surgery. The main reason I wanted to consult with a surgeon was to have him there just in case I needed surgery, i.e. emergency surgery. He told me if I ever had an issue with my bladder to call his office asap, even if its 2am and he would have me in for surgery by 7am.

The surgeon referred me to a pain clinic where I received in total 3 epidural injections, basically they give you a local and shoot cortisone directly into the spinal fluid where the herniation is.

I found a good chiropractor that was not the typical quack and did 3 months of spinal decompression therapy on a machine called a DRX9000

It took me about 2 years before I could truly lift weights again, i.e. from a bodybuilding standpoint. To this day I have to avoid many exercises, i.e. free weight squats, deadlifts, any heavy overhead presses, barbell rows, and a few others.

So, in the end I avoided surgery, I am fine now without any pain and I can lift weights. However I know I still have a bit of herniation there and always will unless I have it surgically repaired, that will be a last resort. Actually, they are getting pretty advanced now with artificial discs, so I figure in the next 10 years if it ever gets to the point of surgery that is the route I would like to go if its available.

The part that pisses me off is if I elected for surgery my insurance would have covered it all minus a small deductible, and I believe we're talking a $20k surgery, especially since I sought out one of the best surgeons in the state. Since I chose alternative therapies that insurance refuses to cover I ended up paying about $6k out of pocket.

RoosterTX · 03-24-2009, 01:41 PM

Prince-

I too have suffered a herniated L4/L5. I was out of the weight game for a solid six months or so. I have found that doing free weight squats and deadlifts has actually helped, along with plenty of rest. I still have mild sciatica, and probably always will unless I opt for surgery. I suspect that our herniations were similar as I experienced sciatica in my left leg as well.
Are you still staying away from squats and deadlifts?

**Prince** · 03-24-2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoosterTX

Prince-

I too have suffered a herniated L4/L5. I was out of the weight game for a solid six months or so. I have found that doing free weight squats and deadlifts has actually helped, along with plenty of rest. I still have mild sciatica, and probably always will unless I opt for surgery. I suspect that our herniations were similar as I experienced sciatica in my left leg as well.
Are you still staying away from squats and deadlifts?

Yes, I tried doing light squats and started to feel pain again, so I stopped...I would not even dare do a deadlift (was never that big on them anyway), however I do hyper-extensions for low back strength.

kyoun1e · 03-24-2009, 04:09 PM

Prince/Others,

What do you do to replace squats, deads, barbell rows, and overhead presses?

I'm going to have a hard time giving all of these up.

In my case, my last two episodes have been driven by deads and barbell rows (...and ooops...doing "speed shoveling" the day of a snowstorm since I was annoyed I couldn't go to the gym. And I had just had a viral infection so I was weak as it was).

I can't remember the last time that another type of exercise caused a problem so I'm tempted to keep rolling.

KY

**P-funk** · 03-24-2009, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoun1e

Prince/Others,

What do you do to replace squats, deads, barbell rows, and overhead presses?

I'm going to have a hard time giving all of these up.

In my case, my last two episodes have been driven by deads and barbell rows (...and ooops...doing "speed shoveling" the day of a snowstorm since I was annoyed I couldn't go to the gym. And I had just had a viral infection so I was weak as it was).

I can't remember the last time that another type of exercise caused a problem so I'm tempted to keep rolling.

KY

Squats replace with single leg movements (split squat, lunge, 1-leg squat)

BB row replace with 1-arm DB row, support rows, seated cable row, standing 1-arm cable row

deads replace with 1-leg/1-arm RDL, Step ups, back extensions (if pain free)

OH press - DB OH press, incline press, incline DB press, half kneeling DB curl and press

Those the the likely substitutions for my clients who have back pathologies.

patrick

kyoun1e · 03-25-2009, 06:59 AM

P-Funk,

Thanks.

Today's legs day. I think I'm going to try the one leg RDLs, split squats, maybe stepups as well.

You know, I read a lot of messages on boards about back pain and it seems like 80% of people's pain is due to deadlifts. I've got to think that people just do these wrong and if that's the case, people should just avoid and stick to these other alternatives.

KY

kyoun1e · 03-25-2009, 12:15 PM

Wow. I'm either really uncoordinated or single legged romanian deadlifts are kind of hard to get used to. Balance was way off.

These seem much more managable.

KY

03-19-2009, 05:13 PM	#1
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	Dealing With Lower Back Issues Folks, A few years ago I ruptured one of my lower discs bouncing off many moguls. To this day, this injury dogs me every now and then when I least expect it. Now I know I'm an idiot for doing these, but I was doing deadlifts the other day and all of a sudden, I could just feel the lower back tighten as if somebody was turning a crank. This type of thing usually happens once every three to six months. Depending on how tight this thing wants to hold, I can barely walk sometimes and at minimum can just hobble around. After a couple days of icing and maybe a trip to the chiropractor...poof...it's gone. At worse after a week. If I"m lucky in a couple days. For all of you back pain sufferers, I have a few questions: 1. What do you do specifically to get over these little bumps in the road? Ice? Aleve? What else? 2. What do you do in the gym to help you prevent this from occuring? 3. What things have you abandoned completely at the gym to make sure it doesn't occur? As for 3., I know I'm tempting fate. I've sworn never to do deadlifts again. I just started squats and I'm wondering if that is a no no. I can't image that my 65 lb sitting shoulder presses are any good for spine compression either. I don't want to be a wuss, but I also don't want to be stupid. Very curious what other long-time sufferers are doing here. Thanks. KY

03-19-2009, 08:39 PM	#2
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,711 Photos: 8	As far as specifics go, I cannot suggest anything. I do suggest seeing a physical therapist who can give you practical advice on training. As finding what is good for you, that is subject to the individual. With injuries, you often have to find what personally works pain free for you. Of course with a physical therapist, you can work to do things that once gave you pain, without pain. The old standby is - if it hurts, don't do it, but find out why. However, some exercises are just no good for an individual, regardless of how balanced they are physically. fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

03-20-2009, 10:24 PM	#7
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,660	I recommend: a) getting someone to work on the soft tissue to help decrease the muscles that have tightened up. b) find a good strength coach or someone that can assess you because you have no idea what the hell you are doing. The fact that you want to go back to those movements (which you shouldn't until someone looks at your form and evaluates hip/ankle mobility and lumbar stability) and the fact that you are doing back stretches and don't seem to have a clue about how to develop proper core function scares the shit out of me. patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

03-21-2009, 12:46 AM	#8
chobby192 Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: united states Posts: 658	I have injured my lower back twice so far: once at my work and once when working out at home. During my first injury, my employer sent me to the physical therapy for about two months, who showed me how to do several stretchings for my back. Those stretching techniques worked very well. For my second injury, I did the same stretchings that my hot PT showed me and worked out fine. I think pain pills don't work for me so I didn't take any. China has become more capitalist than America; America has become more communist than China. ~ Propaganda Buster

03-21-2009, 08:32 AM	#10
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,660	Sounds like the chiro was ripping you off. That is why I hate most in that profession - "come back once a week for the rest of your life if you want to feel better." The goal should be to help you become independent. Even with soft tissue work, I tell people that my goal is to enhance the quality of soft tissue to give them sort of a "break in the action". With that break in the action, we have this small window of opportunity to enhance the way we move and correct the problem. So we have to take advantage of it so that they don't have to rely on me once a month for the rest of their lives to make them feel better. Determine the problem, correct the problem, move on. Where is MA do you live? I know some people near the boston area (waltham). patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

03-20-2009, 08:29 AM	#3
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	For me, my lower back behaves as if there's nothing going on for months, but then...boom. Out of nowhere it will lock up and have me out of commission for a few days. But then it's back to normal and I'm back in the gym. I guess this is good news / bad news. Good news in that my episodes are infrequent. Bad news in that once the bump in the road has passed I go back to doing what I normally do (which maybe means I go back to doing things I SHOULDN'T do). Curious if anyone else's lower back behaves the same way. KY

03-20-2009, 10:30 AM	#4
Triple Threat End of the world Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lost Posts: 10,401 Photos: 6	I sometimes get some lower back stiffness the day after heavy DLs, but I don't get lingering injuries. Sorry that I can't be of more help.

03-20-2009, 11:56 AM	#5
largepkg FAT JESUS Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: S FLA Posts: 3,687 Photos: 2	I have a fairly extensive history of back issues. I fractured my L4, S1 playing racket ball of all things and was in a brace for 6 months. After that I laterally herniated my L4, and L5 again playing racket ball. The herniation was horrid as far as pain goes. I dealt with it for over a year trying to avoid surgery. I ended up getting three epidural treatments that were like a miracle treatment. I had no issues since. That was 7 years ago. At first I started lifting real light and wouldn't dare go near anything that stressed my back. My good friend is a physical therapist and started working with me on core strengthening movements and yes DL's were part of it. Very light of course but I had to start somewhere. He had me focusing on lower back, abs, and posterior chain movements and gradually move the weight up. I'm fairly strong now because of it with no back issues to speak of. Prior to working with him I never lifted or went to the gym. i guess you could say he's responsible for the passion I have now with the iron. Hope this helps.

03-20-2009, 12:15 PM	#6
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	Wow. I'd be interested to know exactly what you're doing to strengthen your core / lower back. Once I fully get over this hump, I'm going to be doing the following but with lower weight: * Back squats (had been moving aggressively higher in weight; Going to cool it) * Deadlifts -- maybe single leg or something; VERY LIGHT * Leg Lunges * Abs of all kinds * Back stretches...which I have been doing since my injury I want to strengthen this area so I can minimize the risk of injury for the rest of my life. Unfortunately, I seem to be my own worst enemy. I tend to get amnesia once I recover. Next thing you know, I'm trying to do olympic deadlifts or something. Thanks. KY

03-21-2009, 06:20 AM	#9
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	P-Funk, On the money as usual. I actually used to go to a chiropractor regularly. This guy did his usual chiro tricks but also essentially gave me a deep muscle beating to loosen things up. I usually walked out of their in more (good) pain than when I arrived. I stopped going because a) it gets addictive, b) cost, and c) I found that icing and stretching seemed to get the job done...although it takes a day or two longer. As for core strengthening...yup...I should probably sit down with a professional on this specific objective before I do any of this again. You mentioned previously that back squats were BAD for someone with a lower back issue. I'm surprised because I haven't felt any stress there doing these. Definitely/Obviously on the deadlift. Damnit...was just starting to get into legs/core...now this. KY

03-21-2009, 12:45 PM	#11
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	I'm on the south shore, Scituate, MA. Although I work in Boston...that's where my last two chiros are located. KY

03-21-2009, 12:56 PM	#12
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,660	I'll send you a PM. patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

03-22-2009, 06:10 PM	#13
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	Amazing. Back pain gone. Poof. It's crazy how this comes (and literally cripples me for a day or so) and then goes. That said, gotta strengthen the core. What do you think of these types of ab / stabilization exercises? * Woodchops * Plank * Push Ups (static holds...3 pt stance...staggered hands...T push up) * DB Pullins * Swiss ball step off KY

03-23-2009, 01:32 AM	#15
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Prince, I'd be interested to hear your insight - I have anterolisthesis of L5 over S1, which functionally feels like a herniated disc there. My work-arounds have included going a little lighter and a little higher-rep on some of my lower-body work - I do fronts instead of back squats for most of my work, ditched heavy rack pulls and now stick to RDLs for my pulling movements. Also, stand to work that I used to train seated - for example, Arnies, or any other heavy pushing movements. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

03-23-2009, 06:29 AM	#16
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	Prince, Yes indeed. Ruptured. MRI confirmed. Caused by the trauma of going down a double black diamond mogual trail...backwards. This was probably 5-6 years ago at this point. It took about 6-9 months to rid myself of the most serious issues. That said, lower back spasms dog me every now and then. I'd probably say once every three to four months I get spasms that lock my lower back up to a point where I can hardly walk or stand up straight for 24-48 hours. It's like someone took a two by four and bolted it to either side of my butt. The last two episodes have been caused by a) Sitting rows, and b) Deadlifts. For example, tuesday my lower back locked up during deadlifts. Wed could hardly move. Thursday a little better to the point I could do some cardio and lift light. Friday and Saturday a lot more improvement. Sunday...poof...gone. If you have any specific recommendations on exercises to stengthen the core I"m all ears. Or ideas on what should be AVOIDED. Thanks. KY

03-23-2009, 11:39 AM	#17
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,274 Photos: 356	ok, so if it truly ruptured then you had surgery, right? IronMagLabs 1-ANDRO Rx Pro-Hormone - BUY 2 GET 1 FREE SPECIAL! BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding, Fitness & Training Blog. Maximizer.com - Maximizer Strength for Maximum Performance Befriend on Myspace Follow on Twitter

03-23-2009, 04:50 PM	#19
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,274 Photos: 356	by ruptured I thought you meant fluid was actually leaking from the disk. what did you do for therapy? IronMagLabs 1-ANDRO Rx Pro-Hormone - BUY 2 GET 1 FREE SPECIAL! BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding, Fitness & Training Blog. Maximizer.com - Maximizer Strength for Maximum Performance Befriend on Myspace Follow on Twitter

03-23-2009, 12:56 PM	#18
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	No surgery. My disc was herniated which I believe is the exact same thing as ruptured. Meaning, fluid burst out of the disc and put pressure on the sciatic nerve which then sent pain down my leg. The Dr's first reaction was, "Wow. You have a problem here. Should probably have surgery." I then went to a back specialist who said that the surgery was an option, but of course there's risk anytime you open up your spine. He said the course of action is dependant on pain tolerance since disc hernation is often a "princess and the pea" situation -- if you can take the pain, go therapy...if you can't, go surgery. I chose therapy and time. What I think happens now is that the muscles that were impacted by this herniation have been scarred or something. It's a weak spot. It seems like when all thinks are going crappy (like I'm sick...or stressed at work, etc.) my back will join the fun and lock up down there. So that's the scoop. Just started doing some glut stretches today along with 3 pt staggered hand push up holds as a start for strengthening the core. KY

03-23-2009, 05:32 PM	#20
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	Well, right. Fluid must have leaked out because that's what puts pressure on the sciatic nerve. Therapy was kinda a joke. Did a lot of exercises, some electro stimulus, aided stretching, etc. After like two weeks I bailed and just did it myself. I was pretty diligent about doing the stretches in the months after and I'm sure it helped. To be honest, with disc situations it seems like it's all about time. If you have the time, the fluid will eventually dry up a little and also "retreat" away from the nerve by doing the proper exercises. That said, there still must be damage there because it wacks me every now and then. So if it's going to be with me the rest of my life, I've got to try to minimize this with the proper core training. KY

03-23-2009, 11:12 PM	#21
Hoglander Cleaner Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Washington Posts: 1,484 Photos: 10	As counter intuitive as it seems... I lift as much as I feel I can get away with. It's the reason I lift. Years of lower back pain that popped up every few months decreased my quality of life. I feel the devil is in the details. I mean, what works for me might screw you up. I'm just saying it's a thin line you walk but IMHO you are on the right course. Learn everything you can learn. BUT!! be an expert on your own body. NO ONE else can know what you know. Be your own best expert. Last edited by Hoglander : 03-23-2009 at 11:22 PM.

03-23-2009, 11:59 PM	#22
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,660	Sounds like your therapy was crap! You need to find someone who knows what they are doing with regard to getting you back on track. Here are some recent blog entries I have done on back pain. Two are research reviews and one is a review of a New York Times article which clearly shows the idiotic stance that the medical community takes on back pain. enjoy: Medical community nonsense - Got Pain? Live with it! « OSP Blog Research Review: Resistance Training is Helpful in the Management of Low Back Pain « OSP Blog Research Review: Massage & Exercise Together Are Effective For Subacute Back Pain « OSP Blog Patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

03-24-2009, 01:02 PM	#23
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,274 Photos: 356	I herniated my S1/L5 disc pretty bad, I was almost bed ridden due to excruciating pain shooting down my left leg. I was taking about 16 Advil's per day along with a couple of Rx's for pain. I did A LOT of online research and decided that I would avoid back surgery at all costs. My MRI revealed the herniated disk as well as a bulging L4/L5 disc. I made an appointment with a surgeon and discussed my options, he agreed to give it a couple of months and use other methods of therapy before resorting to surgery. The main reason I wanted to consult with a surgeon was to have him there just in case I needed surgery, i.e. emergency surgery. He told me if I ever had an issue with my bladder to call his office asap, even if its 2am and he would have me in for surgery by 7am. The surgeon referred me to a pain clinic where I received in total 3 epidural injections, basically they give you a local and shoot cortisone directly into the spinal fluid where the herniation is. I found a good chiropractor that was not the typical quack and did 3 months of spinal decompression therapy on a machine called a DRX9000 It took me about 2 years before I could truly lift weights again, i.e. from a bodybuilding standpoint. To this day I have to avoid many exercises, i.e. free weight squats, deadlifts, any heavy overhead presses, barbell rows, and a few others. So, in the end I avoided surgery, I am fine now without any pain and I can lift weights. However I know I still have a bit of herniation there and always will unless I have it surgically repaired, that will be a last resort. Actually, they are getting pretty advanced now with artificial discs, so I figure in the next 10 years if it ever gets to the point of surgery that is the route I would like to go if its available. The part that pisses me off is if I elected for surgery my insurance would have covered it all minus a small deductible, and I believe we're talking a $20k surgery, especially since I sought out one of the best surgeons in the state. Since I chose alternative therapies that insurance refuses to cover I ended up paying about $6k out of pocket. IronMagLabs 1-ANDRO Rx Pro-Hormone - BUY 2 GET 1 FREE SPECIAL! BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding, Fitness & Training Blog. Maximizer.com - Maximizer Strength for Maximum Performance Befriend on Myspace Follow on Twitter

03-24-2009, 01:41 PM	#24
RoosterTX Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 233	Prince- I too have suffered a herniated L4/L5. I was out of the weight game for a solid six months or so. I have found that doing free weight squats and deadlifts has actually helped, along with plenty of rest. I still have mild sciatica, and probably always will unless I opt for surgery. I suspect that our herniations were similar as I experienced sciatica in my left leg as well. Are you still staying away from squats and deadlifts?

03-24-2009, 04:09 PM	#26
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	Prince/Others, What do you do to replace squats, deads, barbell rows, and overhead presses? I'm going to have a hard time giving all of these up. In my case, my last two episodes have been driven by deads and barbell rows (...and ooops...doing "speed shoveling" the day of a snowstorm since I was annoyed I couldn't go to the gym. And I had just had a viral infection so I was weak as it was). I can't remember the last time that another type of exercise caused a problem so I'm tempted to keep rolling. KY

03-25-2009, 06:59 AM	#28
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	P-Funk, Thanks. Today's legs day. I think I'm going to try the one leg RDLs, split squats, maybe stepups as well. You know, I read a lot of messages on boards about back pain and it seems like 80% of people's pain is due to deadlifts. I've got to think that people just do these wrong and if that's the case, people should just avoid and stick to these other alternatives. KY

03-25-2009, 12:15 PM	#29
kyoun1e Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Scituate MA Posts: 263 Photos: 6	Wow. I'm either really uncoordinated or single legged romanian deadlifts are kind of hard to get used to. Balance was way off. These seem much more managable. KY

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