newb cycle questions [Forum Archive]

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newb cycle questions

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Posted by: juggernaut

Which is better or is there no difference between test cyp and/or test enth? I know they require two shots a week, but is that all there is to it? Chemically, I understand, but I'm looking at person flavor if you will.

Since I now know that I am susceptible to prolactin gyno, should I use an AI while on?Or maybe a low dose of letrozole or aromasin throughout the entire cycle and ending off with nolva or clomid at the end.

Another idea I had was to continue to get a shot of test at 200mg after my first cycle is over, since I am 42 (eckkk) and considering HRT. What are your thoughts?

Posted by: VictorZ06

Cyp or Enan, it's about the same. Just slightly different half lives. More HRT docs prescribe cyp. for some reason. You wouldn't tell the difference at the end of the day, IMHO.

Letro is too strong, that's a last resort. You can take a low dose of nolva ed, or perhaps some adex even some proviron.

I would not continue to take test after your cycle, 200mg is still enough to shut you down.

/V

Posted by: juggernaut

Kind of figured that with the two.

As for nolva, it did shit for me when I followed up on my mdrol cycle. So I'm kind of leery about it; of course, it was a research chem that couldve been shit. Not too sure. Just thinking about using adex and proviron. Any dose recommendations for proviron? And are you referring to nolva as a PCT? I was considering using Dave Palumbos recommendations:

POST CYCLE THERAPY

Whenever one considers stopping an anabolic steroid cycle, it is extremely important to wean yourself off of the drugs very slowly. For instance, if someone were taking 1000mg of sustanon per week, they would not want to just abruptly stop taking everything. The problem with just “stopping” a cycle, while taking such a high dosage of steroids, is that you may suffer the very unfortunate fate of “crashing”. In bodybuilding circles, when we talk of “crashing” we are referring to the situation whereby the user abruptly stops taking any exogenous anabolic steroids yet they also have no endogenous (natural) production of testosterone (due to the temporary shutdown
of their pituitary gland from all the aromatizing steroids the user is taking). Usually it takes approximately 2-3 weeks for natural testosterone to start being produced. It is during this 2-3 week period that the user is extremely vulnerable to viruses (caused by a suppressed immune system), low sex drive (caused by a low testosterone level), and worst of all, lean muscle losses (also caused
by low testosterone levels). How can we prevent this “crash” of the endogenous hormonal systems from occurring? First off, in the first week, it is a really smart idea to slowly lower the amounts of all injected anabolic steroids (bring injected testosterone levels immediately down to 500mg per week). Secondly (week 2), go off all oral compounds and stop all injected anabolics (with the exception of long-acting injected testosterones—keep them at 500mg per week). It is a good idea to
stay on long acting testosterones (such as testosterone cypionate or testosterone enanthate) as opposed to short acting ones (such as testosterone propionate or testosterone phenylpropionate) because the long duration esters will slowly leave the bloodstream over the course
of 3-4 weeks (therefore, there will always be some hormone present) during which time the user’s body will have a chance to start producing endogenous testosterone. Thirdly (around week 4), following the last dose of injected
testosterone, the user should start a 2 week course of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). Every second day, the user should inject 2000 IU’s of HCG. HCG is a hormone that mimics the effects of the pituitary hormone Luteining Hormone (LH). LH, in men, stimulates
the leydig cells of the testicles to produce testosterone (this will effectively “kickstart” the inactive testes).
Lastly (around week 6), Clomid (clomiphene citrate) should be administered orally at a dose of 50mg two times per day (for 2 weeks). Clomid is a synthetic estrogen that, in men, can perform two functions: a) Clomid antagonizes estrogen receptors (somewhat
inhibiting the estrogenic side effects of aromatizing anabolic steroids).b) Clomid mimics the effects of the hypothalamic hormone Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GRH). In humans, GRH stimulates the pituitary gland to produce LH and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). This final role of Clomid, then, is to help awaken the pituitary gland that has been suppressed from the heavy anabolic steroid cycle
that was just recently ceased. Once the last Clomid pill has been swallowed, it is time to allow
the body to restore its natural endogenous hormonal system to normal. This restoration may take upwards of 2-4 weeks. I suggest staying off all synthetic anabolic steroids for at least 6-8 weeks following the ingestion of the last Clomid pill. This “break” should give your liver cells adequate time to detoxify themselves and your muscle cell receptors enough time to, once again, become receptive to anabolic stimuli.

SUMMARY:
- HCG: 2000mg every second day for two weeks
- Clomid: (start 2 weeks after conclusion of cycle) 50mg two times per day for two weeks
- Aromatase Inhibitor: Arimidex (.5mg every other day) or TESTOSTOLYZE (5 pills every day)

Posted by: juggernaut

Ok, it looks like I will do a cycle similar to this:

250mgx2 test E for 10 weeks
25mgx2 a day of proviron for the duration of the cycle starting at the first injection through the course of the cycle.
my PCT will be Clomid at the end of the last injection, at 50mg twice daily for the final two weeks.
Then time on/time off
I'm concerned about prolactin gyno, but I think I have everything covered.

Am I missing anything?

Posted by: Shadowcam

I think arimidex is a better option than proviron, thats if you dont like Nolv.

You need to start clomid 14 days after last shot of test.

Posted by: juggernaut

So,
250mgx2 test E for 10 weeks
0.5-1mg a day of adex for the duration of the cycle starting at the first injection through the course of the cycle.
my PCT will be
Clomid at the end of the last injection, at 50mg twice daily for two weeks after that last shot.

Sound right?

Posted by: Shadowcam

If you mean "clomid at end of last injection" as 14 days after last injection then yes all looks good.

Posted by: Shadowcam

you may want to consider running the adex all the way through your cycle and PCT and run it for an additional 2 weeks after your PCT if you are prone to gyno.

Posted by: juggernaut

I was actually thinking of that, but wont that interact with the clomid, or should I use that in place of it?

Posted by: VictorZ06

Exactly what Shadow said, start PCT 2 weeks after your last shot. If you were using a test with a shorter ester, you could begin sooner. Not with test E or C though.

Personally, I run adex and proviron along side of each other, running them both all the way through. I'm a huge fan of proviron and it really helps spike my libido. It's not 100% needed, but it does help release more test and is a decent tool to use to combat gyno.

Clomid dose. 50mg ed is not enough, IMHO. Start high with 150-200mg and work your way down. 150/100/100/50 or 200/100/50/50. Something along those lines. Good luck.

/V

Posted by: quark

Were you going to add or skip the HCG?

Posted by: juggernaut

I'm skipping the HCG. I dont really know much about it. I'm probably going to just run the adex and the clomid at a higher dose afterwards.

So here's how I stand:

250mgx2 test E for 10 weeks
.5-1mg a day of adex for the duration of the cycle starting at the first injection through the course of the cycle.
my PCT will be
Clomid at the end of the last injection, at 150/100/100/50mg for four weeks after that last shot.

Now onto actual training. Going to do high volume workout 3 on, 1 off, 3 on. Cardio four times a week and really elevate my protein to about 1.5g of bodyweight a day, with a staggered carb intake-or might do a UD2 bulk.

Posted by: quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

I'm skipping the HCG. I dont really know much about it. I'm probably going to just run the adex and the clomid at a higher dose afterwards.

So here's how I stand:

250mgx2 test E for 10 weeks
.5-1mg a day of adex for the duration of the cycle starting at the first injection through the course of the cycle.
my PCT will be
Clomid at the end of the last injection, at 150/100/100/50mg for four weeks after that last shot.

Now onto actual training. Going to do high volume workout 3 on, 1 off, 3 on. Cardio four times a week and really elevate my protein to about 1.5g of bodyweight a day, with a staggered carb intake-or might do a UD2 bulk.

Just my opinion but you should do some further research on the hcg. Highly recommended.
Adex at 0.5 ed should be more than enough. Again, just my opinion, but 1mg ed is too much.

Posted by: juggernaut

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchappj

Just my opinion but you should do some further research on the hcg. Highly recommended.
Adex at 0.5 ed should be more than enough. Again, just my opinion, but 1mg ed is too much.

I'm having a problem sticking myself in the ass with two shots and the hcg would add another? I'm really not feeling you on that, but I did research HCG after I posted my last answer...truthfully? I cant see using peepee as a side for freeing and raising testosterone. Doesnt sound very appealing. nor does the actual mixing of the compound. I'd be too nervous and think I'd grow a third tit or some crazy shit.

Posted by: juggernaut

I will take your advice on the adex at 0.5mg a day however.

Posted by: VictorZ06

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Don't skip it because you don't know much about it. Read up!

Don't look at HCG as another IM injection of AAS. It's taken sub-q and it's the easiest thing in the world to do. MUCH easier than shooting AAS into a muscle.

Bottom line with HCG is this:

If you do not use it, you balls will shrink to the size of raisins and they will only go back to normal after you completed a proper PCT.

In my case, having tiny balls isn't all that much fun...and yes, the ladies will notice. But, if you don't care about the size of your balls and don't care how long/hard your PCT is going to be, drop the HCG.

But IMHO, I like to have my balls at normal size the entire time and I like to have fast recoveries. The compound is a sinch to mix and use. I strongly suggest you take the advice given to you.

/V

Posted by: juggernaut

for argument's sake, small balls on me would look funny. Point taken.
Second, I just don't like another needle in my ass-or can I put it elsewhere?

Posted by: VictorZ06

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

for argument's sake, small balls on me would look funny. Point taken.
Second, I just don't like another needle in my ass-or can I put it elsewhere?

HCG is taken via sub-q, anywhere there is fatty tissue. Most take it on the sides of ones belly button (aprox 2-4" away). It's taken the same way a diabetic takes insulin.

/V

Posted by: juggernaut

fuck-the thought of that freaked me!

Posted by: quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

for argument's sake, small balls on me would look funny. Point taken.
Second, I just don't like another needle in my ass-or can I put it elsewhere?

Skip the ass shots, too hard to do. Use quads and delts. That gives you four different locations. Rotate each time you pin. 23 x 1".
Use a slin pin 0.5ml 5/8" for the hcg. 300 iu every 4 days. As Vic said a couple inches from your navel.

Posted by: juggernaut

I read that there are more problems with quad shots than anything else. They also hurt like fuck if done wrong-of course thats probably with any shot I would imagine.
I understand the challenge with the ass shot, especially trying to pull back on the plunger when your recessive side is shot and not much coordination is possible. I tried it yesterday with a b12 shot-someone told me to practice and this will get me used to it. It was tough.

Posted by: Shadowcam

You do need to rotate injection sites to prevent the build up of scar tissue.

Glutes are the most popular injection sites as there is less chance of spiking veins or nerves and the muscle can hold more oil than other smaller muscles. They can become awkward when your carrying decent size though.

My favourites injection spot is quads but many people have problems spiking nerves in that area. Everyones different.

Posted by: Alumni

Great info on the HCG z06, So that would be good to add to any cycle I take it, and I assume it goes right into your main cycle not your PCT...I appologize If i am thread jacking but you guys got some great info going.

-Respect

Posted by: Shadowcam

Some people run HCG low dose right through there cycle untill they start PCT ie clomid or Nolv. This basically keeps the testes full and helps recovery.

Others run it a couple of weeks before PCT at a higher dose to kickstart the testes so to speak and of course help recovery also. I prefer this method.

Posted by: VictorZ06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alumni

Great info on the HCG z06, So that would be good to add to any cycle I take it, and I assume it goes right into your main cycle not your PCT...I appologize If i am thread jacking but you guys got some great info going.

-Respect

What Shadow said is correct, those are the two main ways to use HCG.

I prefer the first method, using it throughout the cycle. I prefer this method because the testis don't atrophy at all (unlike the second method). If you don't use it during the cycle and wait until the end, you will show signs of testicular atrophy. And to some, that can be bothersome. But, after the cycle and PCT are over, they will go back to their original size.

/V

Posted by: juggernaut

with a test only cycle, factoring in a high volume workout, any ideas on how much LBM I can obtain from a ten week cycle?

Posted by: VictorZ06

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

with a test only cycle, factoring in a high volume workout, any ideas on how much LBM I can obtain from a ten week cycle?

Could be 5 lbs., could be 20 lbs. All depends on your diet and program as well as your PCT. We all differ.

/V

Posted by: Pirate!

That mostly depends on diet. Likely double digit.

Posted by: juggernaut

sounds good. I am usually spot-on with my diet and training. I've contemplated it for several days now-just a bit apprehensive with the needles. I dont care about the moral decision, I got over that in about 5 minutes; besides US laws are fucking ridiculous. Its crazy, you get to buy needles at the local pharmacy, without a prescription, but they ban steroids because they are dangerous. Just fucking stupid.
It's like honoring a guy who feels up little kids who just died. Oh wait that really did happen.

Posted by: juggernaut

Here's a kind of stupid question:

Do I need to "reboot" my test levels after using Adex for a prolonged period of time? Will an OTC test booster work, or does it automatically do this after cessation?

Posted by: juggernaut

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

So here's how I stand:

250mgx2 test E for 10 weeks
.5-1mg a day of adex for the duration of the cycle starting at the first injection through the course of the cycle.
my PCT will be
Clomid at the end of the last injection, at 150/100/100/50mg for four weeks after that last shot.

I'm doing this. I will keep a log and will use HCG next time. I'm doing a high volume workout or block workout with a clean bulk to minimize fat gain.

Posted by: juggernaut

I'm about to start my cycle, and was researching clomid (my PCT of choice).

If test e has a half life of about 6 days, should I wait for six days to pass to start using clomid, or should I start on the day of the final injection? I'm getting conflicting reports that it doesnt matter if youre early, but it matters a lot if you are late.

Also, I was thinking of also using nolva at 40mg a day for 4 weeks with the clomid. Sound ok, or is this overkill since they are both SERMS?

Posted by: VictorZ06

You don't need both nolva and clomid, your cycle is not that heavy. Clomid alone will work just fine in your case, even though many guys run both clomid and nolva together. And you are correct, start taking your clomid about a week after your last shot. Good luck bro!

/V

Posted by: Shadowcam

I would start clomid 14 days after last shot! Its ok to start early but it means you will be running it longer which I dont think is necersary.

Posted by: juggernaut

is it okay if I start in the middle of these two numbers-like say about ten days after? Also, should I front load with 300mg on the first day?

Posted by: BigPapaPump68

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

is it okay if I start in the middle of these two numbers-like say about ten days after? Also, should I front load with 300mg on the first day?

10 days after won't make much of a difference. IMO, you don't have to front load, I never did, and came out just fine.

Posted by: VictorZ06

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

is it okay if I start in the middle of these two numbers-like say about ten days after? Also, should I front load with 300mg on the first day?

That would be fine (when I said about a week, I meant 7-10 days), and yes...personally I would take 300mg the first day, I always do.

/V

Posted by: VictorZ06

Clomid dosage after steroids

A Clomid dosage after your steroid cycle is necessary for you to avoid a post-cycle crash.

Clomid is a prescription drug that is advised for women to induce ovulation. In much simpler terms, Clomid is classified as a fertility drug. In the bodybuilding frontier, however, Clomid is commonly referred to as an anti-estrogen. Anti-estrogens like Clomid minimize the effects of estrogen in the body, and this is a desirable property when it comes to preventing catabolism after a steroid cycle.

After a steroid cycle, estrogen becomes the dominant hormone while your testosterone level remains depressed. It will take a while for your body to resume its production of endogenous testosterone and you need to immediately address the issue since elevated estrogen level means the catabolic hormone cortisol is ever present to eat away most of your muscle gains during synthetic steroid intake. Thus, a Clomid dosage after steroid cycle is a must.

For nonmedical purposes, the recommended Clomid dosage after steroid cycle is 50-100mg (equivalent to 1-2 tabs) a day for 4-6 week post cycle therapy. The common Clomid dosage regimen is 300mg for Day 1; 100mg/day for Days 2-11; and 50mg/day for Days 12-21. Should you want immediate restoration of your testosterone production, you can stack your Clomid dosage with HCG.

/V

Posted by: juggernaut

thanks Victor. Much appreciated. Next time, I'll use the clomid with the hcg.

Posted by: VictorZ06

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

thanks Victor. Much appreciated. Next time, I'll use the clomid with the hcg.

All good. I have to disagree with one of his remarks though, even though he is correct and the method does work.

I've found that running HCG during the cycle to be MUCH more effective come time for recovery. Some guys don't mind getting testicular atrophy for a couple months...I on the other hand do mind. So, I don't run my HCG with Clomid at the end. Just Clomid alone. I stop the HCG the day I begin PCT. And there is no atrophy at any stage....unlike the method posted above.

/V

Posted by: ZECH

Clomid has sides............I would go with Nolva or torem

Posted by: VictorZ06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

Clomid has sides............I would go with Nolva or torem

Nolva has more sides in terms of having the rebound effect and post cycle acne....and that's why I avoid nolva like the plague. Nolva is significantly stronger than clomid. They all have sides bro...Clomid can make you feel like a little bitch, in other words...you can become very sensitive, emotionally.

/V

Posted by: ZECH

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorZ06

Clomid can make you feel like a little bitch, in other words...you can become very sensitive, emotionally.

/V

yes and also eye sight problems. Toremifine is my pick

Posted by: largepkg

I'm pretty sure the half life of E is 10.5 days. I see no reason to start clomid or nolva prior to this. Personally I always start nolva 14 days after last injection. You only need it once plasma levels have dropped to average to low levels.

Why start sooner?

I also agree with nolva over clomid. I tried clomid once and I swear I felt weepy.

Posted by: BigPapaPump68

Quote:

Originally Posted by largepkg

I'm pretty sure the half life of E is 10.5 days. I see no reason to start clomid or nolva prior to this. Personally I always start nolva 14 days after last injection. You only need it once plasma levels have dropped to average to low levels.

Why start sooner?

I also agree with nolva over clomid. I tried clomid once and I swear I felt weepy.

I also like nolva over clomid, it does have its sides, thats for sure

Posted by: juggernaut

Now that I think about it, I got gyno after the mdrol and just now realized that I used Nolva which might be the reason why I got it in the first place. Problem solved. Clomid it is.

Posted by: juggernaut

So here's the update; I started at 223 lbs and did a low dose of test (250mg=125 x 2) for 10 weeks and weight went up to 227. Nice gains.
I went a little more and I started doing 500mg a week, and I stand now at 243, with the same bodyfat I started out with at 221.
No sides, except for a constant baseball bat boner and excessive horniness. But who the hell would complain??

Posted by: VictorZ06

Sweet gains. Keep up the good work!

/V

Posted by: juggernaut

Will do. I think the strongman training I did for 4 months really helped.

Posted by: quark

Yea, glad to hear the update... I tried to PM ya a while back but couldn't get through. Congrats, sounds like your doing good.

Posted by: Cgrant

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

So here's the update; I started at 223 lbs and did a low dose of test (250mg=125 x 2) for 10 weeks and weight went up to 227. Nice gains.
I went a little more and I started doing 500mg a week, and I stand now at 243, with the same bodyfat I started out with at 221.
No sides, except for a constant baseball bat boner and excessive horniness. But who the hell would complain??

wow dude. sounds pretty freakin nice for your first run at gear.. lol sounds like sides most dudes are jealous of!

Posted by: juggernaut

lol thank you. I really took care of the nutritional area; dont get me wrong, it is the holidays but I am enjoying it. I also kept up on the cardio-not too much but enough to not put too much fat on. I'd like to write an article on how to diet with AAS in a bulk, but dont know if my fact finding from Pubmed and Built will count as good references. Many of my members and clients are asking what I did, and because it is a "fitness center" only 2 know whats really going on. But I did get bigger. I just tell them I am eating for size.

Posted by: Cgrant

Haha, I'd say go for it, writ it up and post it here, see how people criticize it and go from there. If it takes off, do some real research and look into getting it published.

What I think is funny, is thaty being from new jersey, and being surrounded by the AAS culture, I think I've developed quite an eye to see the differences between "great diet" and the little "extra boost" , even though I haven't taken the jump myself yet...

Posted by: Lone Wolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowcam

I think arimidex is a better option than proviron, thats if you dont like Nolv.

You need to start clomid 14 days after last shot of test.

I would use armidex myself, how about adding hcg throughout your cycle
you will recover much faster.

Posted by: juggernaut

I actually went with aridimex during the cycle, at 1mg EOD. Works well.

Posted by: juggernaut

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cgrant

Haha, I'd say go for it, writ it up and post it here, see how people criticize it and go from there. If it takes off, do some real research and look into getting it published.

What I think is funny, is thaty being from new jersey, and being surrounded by the AAS culture, I think I've developed quite an eye to see the differences between "great diet" and the little "extra boost" , even though I haven't taken the jump myself yet...

It worked well for me, because I was prepared for anything. After the fiasco with mdrol, I didnt want to repeat the same stupid mistakes. So, I took about 4 months to really read anything and everything and went ahead.
The biggest thing was the actual shooting of the needle, and having a clean environment. It was kind of scary at first, but then after, I was like-thats it? I knew it was easy, but didnt know if it would hurt or not. It doesnt at all. Just take the time to understand anything and everything. Read and read again. And when you think you know enough, read more.

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