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Posted by: Hammerlynn

Is this supp as effective as they make it out to be? A recent review of various supps said this was one of the most effective and I'm wondering what thoughts are? And how much needs to be taken to be effective?

Thanks!

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Originally posted by Hammerlynn
Is this supp as effective as they make it out to be? A recent review of various supps said this was one of the most effective and I'm wondering what thoughts are? And how much needs to be taken to be effective?

Thanks!

The ONLY brand you want to use is Tonalin (several companies use this), the 750 XS, and at least 3 grams a day (4 capsules, Soft gels actually)!

Search IM using my user ....or I will link for later

Posted by: Tank316

Description:
Linoleic acid (LA) is a naturally occurring fatty acid found predominantly in beef and dairy products. LA is one of the two essential fatty acids (the other is linolenic acid). Linoleic acid is an omega-6 fatty acid, meaning that it is unsaturated, with a double bond occurring at the sixth carbon atom from the omega end of the molecule. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is an isomer of LA - which refers to a slight rearrangement of the molecular structure (conjugation) - resulting in a fatty acid with altered chemical functions. The rearrangement in this case is a conjugated double bond occurring at carbons 10 and 12 or at carbons 9 and 11. Linoleic acid is found in the diet in vegetable oils, whereas the conjugated variety, CLA, is found primarily in meat and dairy products. The form of CLA found most commonly in dietary supplements is manufactured from vegetable oils such as sunflower oil or safflower oil. One of the leading brands of CLA (TonalinTM), and the one on which the majority of studies has been conducted, is derived from safflower oil.

Claims:

Builds muscle
Burns fat
Increases thermogenesis (calorie expenditure)
Fights cancer
Antioxidant

Theory:
The anti-tumor/anti-cancer properties attributed to CLA may be due to an antioxidant effect or to an undefined interaction between CLA and various carcinogens. CLA is also theorized to modulate the production of prostaglandins, which are derived from fatty acid molecules and have been linked to an elevated synthesis of growth hormone. Increased growth hormone levels are viewed as beneficial to both athletes and dieters as a way to promote enhanced muscle growth, strength and fat loss. Some prostaglandins may also increase blood circulation to the muscles and adipose tissue - an effect that has been suggested to improve muscle function and fat mobilization. Perhaps the more tantalizing effects of CLA when it comes to supplements, however, are those reported for the induction of weight loss, body fat loss and increased caloric expenditure.

Scientific Support:
The majority of research on dietary intake of CLA has been conducted in animals. Several studies have indicated an anti-tumor effect of CLA in normal doses (1-4 grams) - close to what an average person might consume daily from a "typical" intake of meat and dairy products. The potential anti-cancer effects of CLA (most notable the cis-9/trans-11 isomer) have been attributed to several possible mechanisms including its actions as an antioxidant.

The positive effects of CLA on body composition (less fat and more lean) have been shown in numerous animal studies (pigs, mice, rats, chicks), but the evidence in humans has been somewhat controversial. The joke around the scientific meetings has always been that CLA is a great weight loss supplement for mice, but not so good for humans. This view, however, is rapidly beginning to change based on recent results from several research groups.

In animals, adding CLA (primarily the trans-10/cis-12 isomer) to the diet consistently leads to the supplemented animals gaining less body fat, but more lean body mass (muscle), compared to control animals. As such, many of the studies show no change in total body weight - but that weight is made up of less fat and more muscle - good stuff! - but remember, these results are primarily being shown in rodents and livestock (very few of which are reading these web pages). In livestock studies (cattle, pigs, chickens), supplemental CLA has been shown to promote growth and prevent muscle wasting, whereas body fat accumulation and energy expenditure increased - so here you get a leaner stronger animal (isn't that what we're all looking for in terms of weight loss?). As a nice side benefit, CLA feeding also appears to reduce LDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels in rabbits with elevated cholesterol. So what does this picture look like? - A Happy Barnyard! The cattle, pigs and chickens are all low-fat, high-muscle machines - sort of like a barnyard version of Muscle Beach. Likewise, the CLA-supplemented lab animals (rats, rabbits, and mice) are slim and trim and are the envy of the guinea pigs who only seem to get recruited for the studies on carcinogens and tobacco-related studies.

But what does this all mean for you (the non-lab-rat human looking to shed a few pounds)? Based on a handful of recent studies, it means good news (maybe). Two recent studies have shown that CLA supplementation (3-4 grams/day) promotes a loss of body fat (2-4 lbs. extra in overweight subjects over 12 weeks) and reduces abdominal fat (by about 1 inch) in obese men. So does this mean that CLA is the answer to your weight loss prayers? Probably not - but it might help (keep reading).

Despite these recent positive findings on CLA, there are numerous earlier (but small) studies that have found no benefits of CLA for fat loss. One small study of weight lifters found no differences on measures of body weight, fat mass or fat-free mass following a month of CLA supplementation, but this study looked at subjects who already had a fairly low body fat percentage (14%). Another small study followed 10 subjects consuming 3-4 grams of CLA each day for three months and compared them to 10 subjects consuming a placebo. Results showed no difference in weight loss between CLA and placebo, but those talking CLA dropped somewhat more body fat (a good thing). In another study of 17 healthy women, CLA supplements (3 grams/day) or a sunflower oil placebo for 64 days, resulted in no change in body weight, fat-free mass, fat mass, or percentage of body fat. Likewise, CLA had no significant effect on energy expenditure, fat oxidation, or respiratory exchange ratio at rest or during exercise.

Bottom line = the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly positive in the animal studies, but about evenly split between positive and no-effect studies of humans (see more in the Value section).

Safety:
No adverse side effects are reported with CLA supplementation - but at least one of the more recent human trials reported that about 30% of subjects reported gastrointestinal symptoms associated with recommended doses (3-5 grams/day).

Value:
Confused yet? What we're left with is a supplement that has scientific evidence on both side of the fence (like almost every supplement) - which side of the CLA fence should you be on? In considering the overall "value" of CLA for fat loss, we need to consider some of the metabolic differences between animals (where almost all of the CLA data is positive for lowering body fat and increasing lean tissue) and humans (where we have a split). Rodents, for example, have a metabolic rate that is about 7 times higher than that of a human - which translates, after normalizing rodent and human data to the same scales, to a reduction of body fat that is 7 times greater in rodents than in humans following CLA supplementation. In the rodent studies, CLA supplementation has also been shown to increase daily energy expenditure by nearly 8% - but in humans this effect may only be a bit over 1% (too small to be detected in anything but the largest study using the most sensitive equipment). So this leaves you to make our own judgement call - to supplement with CLA or not. Our recommendation is that if you're looking for a non-stimulant method for slightly increasing energy expenditure and promoting body fat loss, then CLA is worth a try (perhaps combined with green tea extract).

Dosage:
Most people ingest less than 1 gram per day from meat and dairy foods. Typical dosage recommendations are 3-5 grams per day and the 2 most recent studies on CLA have shown benefits using doses of 3.4g and 4.2g per day. Because most of the studies showing a positive effect of CLA have used the TonalinTM brand of CLA (a 50/50 blend of the cis-9/trans-11 and trans-10/cis-12 isomers), SupplementWatch recommends that you look for products that include TonalinTM.

References:
1. Azain MJ, Hausman DB, Sisk MB, Flatt WP, Jewell DE. Dietary conjugated linoleic acid reduces rat adipose tissue cell size rather than cell number. J Nutr. 2000 Jun;130(6):1548-54.
2. Banni S, Angioni E, Casu V, Melis MP, Carta G, Corongiu FP, Thompson H, Ip C. Decrease in linoleic acid metabolites as a potential mechanism

Posted by: 1Fast400

The tonalin thing is overrated. Just make sure you get an isomer breakdown when buying. In the past companies didn't say this. With tonalin being used other companies started listed it

Posted by: Dr. Pain

If your gonna use Creatine, you want SKW Labs (Creapure) or PF (Pfanstiehl), Carnitine (Lonza), Grape Seed (Indena), MSM (Lingisul), Pyruvate (not recommended ever, but if you did Calcium Pyruvate licensed by Med-Pro)

....The point being, ANYONE can put ANYTHING on a label. We have seen Twin Lab products assayed out at 83% (creatine).....GNC, OSMO.....name brand companies....NOT TEST OUT

So I strongly suggest you use Tonalin......and not some safflower derivative from TL with the isomers listed out.

Here is that link:

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...A&pagenumber=1

DP

Posted by: 1Fast400

If your gonna use Creatine, you want SKW Labs (Creapure) or PF (Pfanstiehl), Carnitine (Lonza), Grape Seed (Indena), MSM (Lingisul), Pyruvate (not recommended ever, but if you did Calcium Pyruvate licensed by Med-Pro)

Quote:

....The point being, ANYONE can put ANYTHING on a label. We have seen Twin Lab products assayed out at 83% (creatine).....GNC, OSMO.....name brand companies....NOT TEST OUT

Creatine products aren't pure. That is just a fact of life. There is no such thing as 100% pure creatine.

Quote:

So I strongly suggest you use Tonalin......and not some safflower derivative from TL with the isomers listed out.

Just because it has that name on it means nothing. EAS had Vitagro pulled from their Myoplex Mass because they had it underdosed, yet they still had it listed on the label.

Posted by: Hammerlynn

Thanks DP! I think I'll give it a go

Edit: So I should take 3/day? Does BF% have an inpact on how much I should take? Thanks and sorry for the 20 questions! lol

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Just for clarification on Creatine....not to argue...

Used to be that creatine was tested with either HPLC or HPCE. Creatine in the purest form is about 89% Creatine, not quite 11% water and a "small" minute amout of impurity. The HPLC standards allowed for this...and before revision...there were assays up to almost 105% purity....102's and 103's being rather common, because a small amout of impurity was allowed in the testing standards, and those companies w/o much...ALWAYS scored higher.

Should have seen our faces when we saw our first lab test over 100%..."How the HELL can something be over 100% pure"....we immediately started dialog with molecular biologists

Those impurities are typically the by-products of production, sodium, creatinine, dihydrotriazine and dicyannadamide.

SKW actually screens and tests for these and guarantees less than 20 ppm impurity in their creatine. So once kiln dried and tested...IT IS very close to 100%. Domestic Creatines from ConAgra (yes...agribiz), and Stella can not make these claims nor come close. Twin Lab and others use Chemical Companies to :"Mix" different grades of creatine, EAS use to use PF.......I was approached by their and GNC's Bottler/Manufactuer and told it was Chinese grade....Natures Purest told me flat out it was Chinese, Muscletech never tested out on their 600 ES because they left arginine, glycine and methionine, :UNCONVERTED...and on the label

And...I had a go round with Labrada over them saying the their creatine was 100% SKW...sent a letter to the effect. when I querried SKW why Labrada didn't use the Creapure logo...they told me flat out...because they "mix" creatines and we own't allow them to....Labrada's motto...:If it is on the label...it is in the bottle.

Point is.....some brands and companies ARE much better than others!

DP

Posted by: 1Fast400

Quote:

Point is.....some brands and companies ARE much better than others!

Agreed, but my point was mainly about CLA. My contention is that Tonalin is not the only brand of CLA. The isomers are the key, half of which are crap anyway.

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