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What to stack with 1-AD


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Posted by: Vale Tudo

I have done two cycles now with Erogpharm's 1-AD and have gotten good results, but for muy next cycle I am thinking about stacking it with something else to hopefully get more out of my cycle, any suggestions? Or anyone tried another product that they thinks works just as well or better than the Ergo's 1-AD?


Posted by: PB&J

Most of the posts I have read say stacking with 4-ad is good.


Posted by: dg806

If you want a topical now there are only two places I know to get it. 1fast and BDC!


Posted by: Twin Peak

1AD is the precursor to 1 Test. So you can try 1T which, obviously is more effective. The best stack for a bulk would be 4AD, though I have heard some have good results stacking 1, 4 AD.

Better you better get it quick before they are all banned.


Posted by: dg806

I wouldn't say 1-t was better than 1-ad. If I had a choice I would pick 1-ad. I think they are very close though!


Posted by: Twin Peak

DG, chemically and physiologically, it HAS to be better. We have discussed this. I know you believe you see better results from 1AD. You, perhaps, are an anomoly. But chemically, they end up being the same drug in the body. And the 1AD obviously does not convert at a 100% rate. So mg for mg 1T HAS to be more effect. I know you know this, I explain for the original poster.


Posted by: Twin Peak

BTW, why does your sig refer to 1-Test then?


Posted by: dg806

Quote:
Originally posted by Twin Peak
BTW, why does your sig refer to 1-Test then?
This refers to 1-test gel......


Posted by: dg806

Quote:
Originally posted by Twin Peak
DG, chemically and physiologically, it HAS to be better. We have discussed this. I know you believe you see better results from 1AD. You, perhaps, are an anomoly. But chemically, they end up being the same drug in the body. And the 1AD obviously does not convert at a 100% rate. So mg for mg 1T HAS to be more effect. I know you know this, I explain for the original poster.
If you look at some old post on bb.com and you'll see plenty of arguements on this. I'm not exactly sure how the chemical makeup is different............1t is only 25 mg vs 1-ad 100mg. Is one 25 mg as good as 1 100mg??? Or does it take 4 25 mg to equal 1 100mg? I think that is where the debate lies. Mg for mg you might be right......I don't know. But just from the feedback I get at gyms I would say 1-ad over 1t. Now maybe 1t hasn't been around long enough. And like you said each person is different.


Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote:
Originally posted by dg806
This refers to 1-test gel......
And this differs how?


Posted by: dg806

better absorption!


Posted by: dg806

If I remember right your talking 40-45% to about 10-13%


Posted by: Twin Peak

No. How does your reference matter to comparing 1T to 1AD? 1t is 1t, just there are different deliver systems. Same as 1AD is 1AD, in theory it could be delivered transdermally I suppose, but Pat has a patent I believe, I he doesn't use transdermals (soon no one will).


Posted by: dg806

I guess it doesn't matter. I just prefer the gel over orals!


Posted by: Twin Peak

UGGGG.

I know you prefer gels. And you prefer 1AD. See the contradiction? I am trying to see how YOU reconcile this. Personally, I can think of a way, but I want to hear your reasoning.

You say:

1) 1AD is better than 1T (there is NO discussion here about delivery systems, you just blanketly state that 1AD is better)
2) Your sig says 1T
3) I ask why if you prefer 1AD
4) You yell "GELS"

See the circular logic? I am trying to get to the end of the circle!


Posted by: dg806

Ok I think I see the confusion here..........when you say 1T I'm thinking 1tethergels(oral-molecular nutrition) , not 1-test!


Posted by: 1Fast400

1-AD is the best oral product out there period.

Quote:
chemically and physiologically, it HAS to be better.

This is a common misconception. If you stack 300mg of 1-AD vs 300mg of an oral 1-test, the 1-AD will always come out on top. The liver destroys most of the oral 1-T product.

Quote:
I know you believe you see better results from 1AD. You, perhaps, are an anomoly. But chemically, they end up being the same drug in the body. And the 1AD obviously does not convert at a 100% rate. So mg for mg 1T HAS to be more effect. I know you know this, I explain for the original poster.
90% of people will see better results with 1AD as opposed to any other 1-T product. You don't understand the science as to why these products work.


Posted by: Vale Tudo

SO what brands would you guys suggest for the 4-AD stack, and what amounts?


Posted by: 1Fast400

AndroDiol Select from Ergo is one of the most economic orals. I'd do 2-3 caps per day spaced with emails. If going transdermal I would go with 6 squirts 2x per day of 4Aderm. That way it would last you a month.


Posted by: Mikes1

Using the suggested dose of 1-ad, the bottle lasts 20 days. Is it better to use 2 bottles(40 days) or 1.5 bottles(30 days) or 1 bottle?


Mike


Posted by: 1Fast400

You have 3 options:

3 pills per day 1-break/1-lunch/1 dinner bottle last 20 days
4 pills per day same except two closest to working out 2 bottles=month

6 pills per day same but 2 3x per day 3 bottles=month


Posted by: Mikes1

Are 20 day cycles long enough?

P.S. I liked the letter you had in the last package i received from you.


Posted by: dg806

Quote:
Originally posted by 1Fast400
1-AD is the best oral product out there period.




This is a common misconception. If you stack 300mg of 1-AD vs 300mg of an oral 1-test, the 1-AD will always come out on top. The liver destroys most of the oral 1-T product.



90% of people will see better results with 1AD as opposed to any other 1-T product. You don't understand the science as to why these products work.
Mike, doesn't 1-ad have a double bond that make makes it the liver where 1t doesn't?


Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote:
Originally posted by 1Fast400
1-AD is the best oral product out there period.

This is a common misconception. If you stack 300mg of 1-AD vs 300mg of an oral 1-test, the 1-AD will always come out on top. The liver destroys most of the oral 1-T product.

90% of people will see better results with 1AD as opposed to any other 1-T product. You don't understand the science as to why these products work.
I'll certainly defer to your knowledge on this Mike. But if thats true than you suck for letting my by VPX.

Also I thought that oral 1 Test (I'll use this instead of 1T to prevent the confusion) converted at around 15%. I thought 1AD, 4AD, and even boldione were about the same.

And at what percentage does 1AD convert to 1Test?

In other words, what % of 1AD gets into the blood, and what % of that is converted to 1 Test?


Posted by: 1Fast400

Nobody knows and anyone (here this big cat) that makes up numbers on absorbtion is stupid. They are guesses at best.


Posted by: dg806

But we do know that transdermals get more in the blood than orals!


Posted by: dg806

Quote:
Originally posted by Twin Peak
I'll certainly defer to your knowledge on this Mike. But if thats true than you suck for letting my by VPX.

Also I thought that oral 1 Test (I'll use this instead of 1T to prevent the confusion) converted at around 15%. I thought 1AD, 4AD, and even boldione were about the same.

And at what percentage does 1AD convert to 1Test?

In other words, what % of 1AD gets into the blood, and what % of that is converted to 1 Test?
The gains you got off of VPX were outstanding! I don't think you would have seen any more with 1-ad......
And don't confuse the absorption of orals and transdermals together.


Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote:
Originally posted by dg806
The gains you got off of VPX were outstanding! I don't think you would have seen any more with 1-ad......
And don't confuse the absorption of orals and transdermals together.
1) I believe most of my gains were the extremely increased calories. None of my lifts were personal bests. Since being off all size gains have all but evaporated.

2) Clearly I don't. But my points are the same.


Posted by: dg806

Quote:
Originally posted by Twin Peak
I'll certainly defer to your knowledge on this Mike. But if thats true than you suck for letting my by VPX.
You didn't believe me


Posted by: dg806

TP, I would try a good 4/ad product while you can. The increased estrogenic activity is best for mass!


Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote:
Originally posted by dg806
You didn't believe me
Well, Iknow you are joking, but it is not about BELIEF. Its about understanding.

1) You simply said, 1AD is better than 1Test, I point we have come full circle on.

2) Mike elaborated. He added that 1AD has more bioavailability than 1Test, in oral form. He stated that 1Test is broken down by the liver more so than 1Test.

3) I think we all agree that 1Test transdermally is better than 1AD.

Okay, so that is all that has been discussed. Lets assume that I believe Mike's point in (2) above. So what? What I really want is proof that it is more bioavailable. And, not only does it need to be more bioavailable but it must be so to a greater extent than the loss in conversion.

So after thinking about this some more, and the fact that I "don't understand the science" (which I readily admit), I'd like some proff to back up Mike's point. And I must admit to being slightly troubled by Mike's point, juxtaposed with his final post which says there are no numbers.

Mike -- if there are no numbers or even approximations, HOW DO YOU KNOW? Seriously.

I would think that the formulas of ultimate 1Test in the blood should look something like this.

Oral 1 Test, mg in blood = (mg taken) x (% passed through liver)

Pretty simple.

1AD, mg in blood = (mg taken) x (% passed through liver) x (% successfully converted to 1T

So, for example, lets assume the following numbers. 200mg of each taken. Each passes through the liver at 15%. 1AD converts to 1Test at a 50% rate. Thus:

Oral 1 Test, mg in blood = (200) x (0.15) = 30 mg

AD, mg in blood = (200) x (0.15) x (0.50) = 15 mg

That is my point. Now if 1AD passes at 50% or 75% and converts at a higher % than my guess, or if 1Test passes at 1% or 2 %, than obviously the numbers change.

But my point is, if we don't know the numbers, or approximations, than we don't know the results.

So Mike, are you speaking from knowledge on these numbers? Or from general knowledge on Biochem passed on from Pat, Par, or others, or from real world experience (i.e. legions of your customers feedback)?

Honestly, I'd value all three insights applying various degrees of reliability.


Posted by: dg806

TP, i have been looking for a thread this weekend that talks about absorption and conversion. Haven't found it yet, but i'll keep looking. It may not be 100% accuarate like Mike says, but it is as close as we will get right now.


Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote:
Originally posted by dg806
TP, I would try a good 4/ad product while you can. The increased estrogenic activity is best for mass!
Three bottles of 4 ADerm just iching to be used....


Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote:
Originally posted by dg806
TP, i have been looking for a thread this weekend that talks about absorption and conversion. Haven't found it yet, but i'll keep looking. It may not be 100% accuarate like Mike says, but it is as close as we will get right now.
If you are looking for that Big Cat article, Mike all bet said that he pulled those numbers out of his ass.


Posted by: dg806

No this was on BDC..................I still can't find it.


Posted by: dg806

Quote:
Originally posted by Twin Peak

2) Mike elaborated. He added that 1AD has more bioavailability than 1Test, in oral form. He stated that 1Test is broken down by the liver more so than 1Test.
If you look at a 10% conversion of 1-ad, 300mg taken daily would be 30mg converted in the blood.
For a transdermal absorption rate of 40%, if you get 200mg 1-test daily, that would be 80mg daily. More than double. Now I have seen where Par said eventually the transdermal would go through the liver. Not sure at what point and how much breakdown. So the 80mg may be lower.


Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote:
Originally posted by dg806
If you look at a 10% conversion of 1-ad, 300mg taken daily would be 30mg converted in the blood.
For a transdermal absorption rate of 40%, if you get 200mg 1-test daily, that would be 80mg daily. More than double. Now I have seen where Par said eventually the transdermal would go through the liver. Not sure at what point and how much breakdown. So the 80mg may be lower.
First, unless you have a source, those numbers are no better than mine or Big Cat's.

Second, you are missing a critical step of 1AD, unless you are assuming that it passes throught the liver at 100%; but I don't think that is what you are saying.


Posted by: dg806

Quote:
Originally posted by Twin Peak
First, unless you have a source, those numbers are no better than mine or Big Cat's.

Second, you are missing a critical step of 1AD, unless you are assuming that it passes throught the liver at 100%; but I don't think that is what you are saying.
The numbers are what most agree on wheather right or not?? And for 1ad, I'm assuming that after everything is done you get 10% converted from the original 300. Not knowing what % breakdown you have, I'm not speculating. I've heard 10-13% conversion.


Posted by: Twin Peak

Oh, so you are saying that 10% of the 1AD is ultimately converted to 1Test in the blood. Fair enough, but it still seems like all speculation.

And still it doesn't address 1Test oral bioavailability. For that I have "heard" 15%, which Mike is saying is BS.


Posted by: Twin Peak

I am going to post this over at Avant and see if we get any more help, since we are obviously banging our heads against a wall.


Posted by: Vale Tudo

Ok well it looks like I will be stacking the ERGO's 1-AD with the Androdiol Select 300 Product also from ERGO. and when i come off of the two i will be using tribex to kick my natural test levels back up. should I use the 4-AD the entire cycle alomng with my 1-AD or just during certain times? and what side effects should I see like hairloss, shrunken nuts, or acne? What do you guys think of this stack?


Posted by: Twin Peak

I'd use 6-Oxo rather than tribex. How long will your cycle be?


Posted by: Vale Tudo

7 weeks it looks like this:

Week:1 3 caps per day
Week 2: 4 caps per day
Week 3: 5 Caps per day
Week 4: 6caps a day
Week 5: 6-7 caps a day
Week 6: 4 caps a day
Week 7: 2 caps a day
Week 8: start tribex

How much of the 4-ad do you think i should be using during this cycle?


Posted by: Twin Peak

Depends on why you are taking the 4ad. If you are taking it merely to counteract the lethargy and increase water retention for added strength you only need minimal (I have heard 100-200mg). If you are looking at it as a separate and quite powerful androgen then between 400-800 mgs. My next cycle will be 600, myself (4Aderm transdermal).


Posted by: dg806

TP, good post on Avant! But looks like if we don't get more responses, we haven't gotten anywhere. I guess that is where "find what works for you" comes from? I've tried Molecular's 1T and syntrax sauce. They both work. But I still believe IMHO, if I had to choose just one, as you know, I would pick 1-ad. You need to try all them at some point and form your own conclusion. I would love to see your results much like you did with VPX. It would be interesting. I know this doesn't answer the question though. If we had a way of measuring blood levels and could afford to do it, I would certainly volunteer! Just think what we could learn from it!


Posted by: Vale Tudo

thanks for the help TP, I know that i will probably be using it as an androgen, so I will have a shitload of 1-AD and 4-AD running through my body, think it is too much and unsafe? ANd what do you guys think about th side effects?


Posted by: dg806

At 600mg 1-ad daily I would shoot for 400-600mg 4/ad daily. You will get good strength and size increases from this. Like TP said, if your cycle is over 4 weeks do two bottles of 6-oxo!


Posted by: Twin Peak

I will track my One+ cycle as well, but they will onlt be 3 week cycles. 3 on, 4 off, and I will do 2 or 3.


Posted by: 1Fast400

Quote:
No this was on BDC..................I still can't find it.

I repeat, NOBODY...I don't give a fvck who they are has a clue as to what rate ANY of this converts PERIOD. The problem is people who are looked at as knowing things don't know how to say "I don't know".


Posted by: 1Fast400

Quote:
If you look at a 10% conversion of 1-ad

Please don't further ignorance on the web by throwing fake numbers out.


Posted by: 1Fast400

Quote:
The numbers are what most agree on wheather right or not??

If I get 5 stupid people to agree that 4+5=10 does that make it right?


Posted by: Twin Peak

Good comments Mike. I agree 100%. For the record, I believe my use of numbers was strictly for illustration and was prefaced by something like, "I am pulling these numbers out of my ass...."

Also, for those IM members who don't visit Avant I will sum up the result of the thread there or at least give you my mental impression synthesizing the opinions of the great minds over there.

1) No one knows, scientifically speaking whether 1AD or oral 1T survives the liver better.

2) No one knows the rate of conversion of 1AD to 1Test.

3) In theory, mg for mg, 1Test should produce better results than 1AD.

4) In the real world, 1AD has produced better results, subjectively speaking.

4) This may or may not be due to higher 1AD doses.

Mike did I miss anything? Or mischaracterize anything?


Posted by: 1Fast400

Not really, 1-AD is the best oral product, contrary to what Bill may say. It is just hard to admit you make a product that isn't as cost effective.


Posted by: dg806

Quote:
Originally posted by 1Fast400
Please don't further ignorance on the web by throwing fake numbers out.
Until you get real world proof, you have to have some kind of base number to go on. I never said it was concrete.


Posted by: 1Fast400

Quote:
Until you get real world proof, you have to have some kind of base number to go on. I never said it was concrete.

What are you talking about? You don't have to have a number. If you have no information that pertains to its conversion than any number that is thrown out is nothing more than a stupid guess. Speaking about it as if it were fact is the problem. I think Big Cat has been able to brainwash WAY to many people.


Posted by: dg806

I've never seen BC refer to any # other than in his main article. It's the other hundreds that seem to agree. Why are you so hung up on numbers? It doesn't make a crap to me one way or the other. I think all we really have to go on is real world feedback from people you can trust. And look at my post on bb.com vs. here. You can see I'm not a bb.com junkie.


Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote:
Originally posted by dg806
I've never seen BC refer to any # other than in his main article. It's the other hundreds that seem to agree. Why are you so hung up on numbers? It doesn't make a crap to me one way or the other. I think all we really have to go on is real world feedback from people you can trust. And look at my post on bb.com vs. here. You can see I'm not a bb.com junkie.
I think you both agree that 1 AD is the best oral product so lets move on. Mike, is just correctly pointing out that BC has done a very good job of sounding smart, making shiat up, and having a tons of people (myself, once, included) believe the false stuff.

He also is asking not to perpetuate the false info. On this one, DG, I have to say I agree. You did speak of those numbers as if gospel.

Further, you tried to disprove my theory (that 1T SHOULD be better) with those numbers.

Mike agreed with you and disagreed with my theory, but his opinions were based on real world feedback from many customers that were simply, 1AD performs better. This doesn't really address my theory which is based on the raw PHs rather than specific products, but its a real world answer.


Posted by: dg806

Even if the numbers were equal, you would have to take double the recommended dosage of 1-ad (300mg/day) to equal a transdermal 1test since you apply it twice daily.



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