Textbooks Or Supps? [Forum Archive]

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Textbooks Or Supps?

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Posted by: Dr. Pain

Seriously?

I'm in a unique quandry.....

It's back to school here......and I'm busy as all hell this week and next......

I have students coming in a "Blowing" a good portion of their financial aid on supps. Now I'm in business to "make money"....and we do lecture on FOOD being the Number One SUPP....I have no problem selling them Creatine and Protein....but

...I'm not their parents (and don't want to be, some are to stupid to take supps).....I'm not the supp police....however...all the damn advertising in the Muscle Mags....makes the young people think supps are "Magic Bullets"...if a Pro endorse's it..."It must be good"......and don't even get me started on fucking prohormones.....

As a former college prof......I'm conflicted......I know what huge portion a person's training can have on their life.....and I'm not talking about the "washouts" whose parents made them go to college and their Idea is just to party

But, and I know I'm rambling......

Sidenote: I don't like to sell "shit".......and I always try to steer people to the best product possible for their needs.....but I couldn't stay in business selling only quality products (many of my clientele trust me, and they do buy the quality products on my suggestion)....but the power of ADVERTIZING is so overwhelming, I have to carry a lot of Junk :end Sidenote

....Where do you draw the line? GNC doesn't give a fuck, or know much (here)...and if I don't blindly sell it to them, they will?

Opinions???

I know it's vague...but what would you do?

DP

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
Sidenote: I don't like to sell "shit".......

DP

do you sell "shit"?

if you're in business to make money then you sell them what they want. If they ask your advice then you tell them what is worth taking and what is not, but I would not give unsolicited advice.

Posted by: dg806

Yep Prince hit it on the head. Sell it and give advice when asked!
Most people think they know everything anyway!

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
do you sell "shit"?

if you're in business to make money then you sell them what they want. If they ask your advice then you tell them what is worth taking and what is not, but I would not give unsolicited advice.

That's what we do, and/but unfortunately we are over zealous with honesty and advice.....

Unfortunately...80% or more of the supps out there are SHIT...and there is NO WAY around it! You can't be "In Business" w/o the shit! LOL

BTW...I'm only speaking of Ergogenic Aids...not supps in General!

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Originally posted by dg806
Yep Prince hit it on the head. Sell it and give advice when asked!
Most people think they know everything anyway!

DUMBASSES!

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
That's what we do, and/but unfortunately we are over zealous with honesty and advice.....

Unfortunately...80% or more of the supps out there are SHIT...and there is NO WAY around it! You can't be "In Business" w/o the shit! LOL

BTW...I'm only speaking of Ergogenic Aids...not supps in General!

Well then, it sounds like you have a moral dilema with the business you are in, so maybe you need to reevaluate that.

You just answered you own question: "80% or more of the supps out there are SHIT...and there is NO WAY around it! You can't be "In Business" w/o the shit!"

if you want to stay in business give your advice sparingly in regards to what is shit and what is not.

Posted by: Max. Q

DP; That is a tough situation, but like here in the forums just put out the information and if they don't listen or fail to comprehend that the advice you've given is solid, then it shouldn't be your concern.

Let it be known, because of what you've preached over and over again in the forums, I've learned which products are quality and which one's are unnecessary. This has resulted in saving my money, using it on more beneficial items like FOOD!!

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally posted by Max. Q
DP; That is a tough situation, but like here in the forums just put out the information and if they don't listen or fail to comprehend that the advice you've given is solid, then it shouldn't be your concern.

Let it be known, because of what you've preached over and over again in the forums, I've learned which products are quality and which one's are unnecessary. This has resulted in saving my money, using it on more beneficial items like FOOD!!

So, how do you run a supplement business and advise people that food is the best supplement?

That sounds like a quick recipe for going out of business.

You must believe in what you're selling or you should not be selling it. Right?

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

So, how do you run a supplement business and advise people that food is the best supplement

Sell the supplement business and buy a grocercy store?

Posted by: Max. Q

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
So, how do you run a supplement business and advise people that food is the best supplement?

That sounds like a quick recipe for going out of business.

You must believe in what you're selling or you should not be selling it. Right?

What I mean is instead of buying certain supplements, I am able to save that money and use it to buy food. I didn't say that I would advise others to buy food instead.

Just like you said: "if you're in business to make money then you sell them what they want. If they ask your advice then you tell them what is worth taking and what is not, but I would not give unsolicited advice."

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Thanks Max and Everyone!

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
So, how do you run a supplement business and advise people that food is the best supplement?

That sounds like a quick recipe for going out of business.

You must believe in what you're selling or you should not be selling it. Right?

I run it the way I run it! With honesty, intregrity and full representation. We give warning on any and every product we know about, When asked, or many times w/o promting....we tell a person that they DO NOT want a particular product or products, esp the shit ones....and you know what........

They come back, they tell their friends and relatives, they move and still call us for supps, the Medical and Pharmacueticul community trust us.....and people tell us all of the time that they come to us out of trust and respect!

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
I run it the way I run it! With honesty, intregrity and full representation. We give warning on any and every product we know about, When asked, or many times w/o promting....we tell a person that they DO NOT want a particular product or products, esp the shit ones....and you know what........

great, if that's the case why did you pose this question in the first place?

furthermore, if you tell customers to not take the "shit ones" why even carry them?

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Cuz.....we are talking $$$ that should be spent on Textbooks, not shitty supps........the rest of the discussion was about the general public...

Posted by: kuso

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
great, if that's the case why did you pose this question in the first place?

furthermore, if you tell customers to not take the "shit ones" why even carry them?

Thats exactly what I thought, and really DP....what right do you have to even worry about HOW they are spending their money.

Business is busines....you are in it to make money WITHOUT blindly ripping off the customer, hense, if they ask you tell, if they think they are making an informed choice after reading FLEX, so be it.

Posted by: w8lifter

Quote:

Originally posted by kuso
and really DP....what right do you have to even worry about HOW they are spending their money.

WTF is that supposed to mean....he can't vent about how he feels?

Everyone else does around here.

Posted by: kuso

Quote:

Originally posted by w8lifter
WTF is that supposed to mean....he can't vent about how he feels?

Everyone else does around here.

Vent away....I`m saying though, as a business man his primary concern should be the amount they spend in his store, and possibly at competitors stores.........not what they spend in something unrelated.

Posted by: Dr. Pain

This is a fine line, Prince......I can tell you what I learned in ALL of my MBA education, 2 Golden Rules:

First Golden Rule:

"Find Imperfections in the System and Exploit them!"

See, I just saved you a shitload of money and time...I even almost got expelled for adherring to the "Golden Rule"

I used, voidable contracts to domin8 a Stock Market Trading Simul8tion.......I ripped the college (Computer Lab) off of Computer time (back when you had to 'Buy it"), for my Business Consulting and Electronic Data Accounting Firm, we also used the free "Long Distance" in the Teacher's Lounge...as Grad Assistants for Business dealings.....etc

But what you learn is Business is NOT what you learn in Business School......When I taught Small Business Devolpment, an Upper Divion College class here (as an Associ8 professor)....I taught Business as it occurs in the "Real World"...not in books, if you want to Play HArdball, you'd better have ALL of the Bases, the Ball and the Bat......cuz just like in BB, there is always a Bigger Dog than you, that can play harder and rougher....sort of what you guys are talking about. How do you ever win? Don't play THAT GAME!

Second Golden Rule: Wealth Maximazation

You know what I say...FUCK THESE RULES!...It's about helping people, caring, doing the right thing!

They had classes focusing on the "New" concept back then of, "Social Responsibility".....Ha! That ment dump your chemicals in Lake Erie, and then build a YMCA on the banks for the communities you just Fucked!

You guys make money the way your consciousness dictates, I'll do it my way......if I can help someone with there bodybuilding goals w/food....then if the get sick, have a problem....they come to me......it always seems that truth, kindness and caring are returned monetarily w/interest LD

DP

Posted by: Prince

I agree DP, but the thing that is ironic here is that you are contradicting yourself.

Why run a supplement business if you really do not believe in what you are selling? Why not close up shop and be a nutrition conselor, or open a health food store?

Secondly, it's not your duty to worry about what anyone spends their money on. If some college kid wants to buy supps, so be it.

Lastly, why are you taking such a defensive tone?

and w8lifter, we are just responding to DP's post, nothing more, nothing less, I think DP can handle himself.

Posted by: Dr. Pain

It's the moral side of good business, nothing more, I'm defensive because it's it's aggravating for me to see profit as the driving force...this is fucking up the world....what you buy, what you think is told to you, directly or indirectly.

If you look at the replies, that is what some of you are saying!

DP

Posted by: DanK

I don't think you can do much about people spending their money on supplements instead of textbooks, people have their own set of values.

Helping people buy the best supplements on the other hand shouldn't be to hard, simply setup a special display for the supplements you consider to be in that 20% that aren't shit, string up some flashy christmas lights or whatever you feel it takes to allow people to note them, a sign that says this is what you feel are the best of the best etc. People are free to ignore you or take your advice, without anyone feeling like you are pushing information on them they don't want or need. It'd probably be a good idea to have those seperated into the top 20% also in the regular locations according to how your store is organized.

It's a lot of work (especially if you carry a LOT of selection and you probably do) but if it helps you sleep better knowing you are probably helping more people buy quality goods then it should be worth it.

Posted by: w8lifter

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince

and w8lifter, we are just responding to DP's post, nothing more, nothing less, I think DP can handle himself.

I know he can....I just didn't know what "what right do you have" meant. ...and I still don't really....why doesn't he have a right to care...it may not be his place, but he certainly has to right to

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Thanks DanK!

Good Suggestions....

The marketing is not a problem....funny that you mention Christmas lights however, we do that becaue my wife is into Feng Shui (omg help me now, lol)

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
It's the moral side of good business, nothing more, I'm defensive because it's it's aggravating for me to see profit as the driving force...this is fucking up the world....what you buy, what you think is told to you, directly or indirectly.

If you look at the replies, that is what some of you are saying!

DP

okay, maybe, but not too long ago you were mad that ephedra was going to be made illegal and this was a major profit for you. Do you honestly believe that taking ephedra is the healthiest way to lose weight? and you know as well as I that 90% of the people that buy this supp probably eat like shit and don't even work-out, they think it's a magic weight loss pill.

but honestly I think you're in the wrong business then because for the most part supplements are marketed with lies to begin with.

it sounds like you should be a nutrition advisor or personal trainer so you can make money helping poeple and still feel moral about how you make your money.

or, only sell supplements that you truely believe in, but if you did that you would probably go out of business!

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Good Point Prince......but anyone buying ECA for me gets a lecture from me or my employees...many many sales have been diverted to Fat Loss Speeches and products that are more useful.

As is always the case, if they are going to buy it anyway, we sell it. Got to pass a Drug Test, we have yor stuff.....

There is a difference between morality and being Judgemental!

It's difficult to compete with the Tabloids and Oprah for quality information, but if I don't do it, who will?

See I am productive and useful, morals and all.

Posted by: w8lifter

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince

but honestly I think you're in the wrong business

....I'm telling ya....BBP

Posted by: Dr. Pain

I went to a book store today

Overwhelmed as usual, I picked out some books for Ya'll

w8: The Paleo Diet

Short Version of the PD:

Eat all meats
Eat all non-starchy veggies, and some fruits
Avoid Dairy
Avoid Legumes
Eat Fat

Chapter two, was "How to "Hunt" food in the Supermarket"

mmafiter: There actually is a Grapling mag

GP: Get Big with Static Contraction (constip8ed too)
DP: Qigung and Medical Term Dictionary
TCD: How Alcohol Supresses Testosterone (made that one up)

Oh...and my favorite, I wouldn't give this book to anyone......73 Exercises and how to do them Correctly...OMG, the worst form I've seem outside of the gym

Posted by: w8lifter

and not a single smilie

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Interesting statement in the Paleo Diet

Said: If you change you macros to Protein from Meat, and carbs fiber from fruits and veggies only.....no change in calories or exercise...you will lose 10-15 pounds of fat in 6 months

DP

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
I went to a book store today

Prince: Business for Dummies

I think you need to read this one!

Posted by: kuso

I dare anyone to read this thread from the start and make any fucking sense out of it at all.

I just have and the only thing I`ve come away with is the feeling you (DP) were originally just fishing for a compliment on being such an honest, up standing guy, and managing to squeeze in, once again, that you have an MBA.....

Posted by: dg806

Quote:

Originally posted by kuso
I dare anyone to read this thread from the start and make any fucking sense out of it at all.

I just have and the only thing I`ve come away with is the feeling you (DP) were originally just fishing for a compliment on being such an honest, up standing guy, and managing to squeeze in, once again, that you have an MBA.....

Yep, that's about it in a nutshell I think!
DP, I think Prince and Kuso have good points. Your feelings (if they are what you say) are overriding your business. And that is bad money wise. I know you want to make money or you wouldn't have it. Maybe you really need to do some soul searching and see what it is you really rather do..............supp store or nutritional advisor/trainer.

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Thanks Kuso, no it was a honest and sincere reaching out for opinions, I WAS suffering from some doubt, maybe some guilt over taking money better spent elsewhere....it just migrated that way when I felt pressed for defending my business practices....

What I see is that there is a touch of "ruthlessness" in the business sense in some people.......I have my idea of "balance", others have their's......

But once again you proved the "You Suck"...and that "Ferret Magazine" was an appropriate choice for you!

DP

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Originally posted by dg806
Yep, that's about it in a nutshell I think!
DP, I think Prince and Kuso have good points. Your feelings (if they are what you say) are overriding your business. And that is bad money wise. I know you want to make money or you wouldn't have it. Maybe you really need to do some soul searching and see what it is you really rather do..............supp store or nutritional advisor/trainer.

Yes...there is and always has been much conflict.....

For instance....until I learned more...I went about 15 years thinking mega doses of Vitamns (esp B's) was stupid shit. For instance......if you are deficient in somethig.....are you THAT DEFICIENT? I brought this up constantly as I consulted for those in the Industry!

It also bothers me knowing the inside politics of some companies and their business practices....

If you think what is on the label is really in the botle....or in the quantity and quality claimed...THINK AGAIN

Just like you can shop at Walmart, K-mart, Sears, and Higher end stores.....most manufacturers have about 3-5 grades of any material to choose from, and priced accordingly

Like some of the people here who think profit is the goal....what grades do you think most choose to put in your supps?

DP

Posted by: kuso

Well, you reached for, and got some opinions.

If you`d prefer to just have me insult you back I can go that way too, that way you could try to belittle me and make yourself feel great.

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
I think you need to read this one!

I was taught by the best idiots, they all wrote their own freakin textbooks, all the Big Guns....unhappy mother fuckers ...all of them!

I don't think the collective brain power amonst all of them would hand back a hundred dollar bill they saw someone drop.

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Originally posted by kuso
Well, you reached for, and got some opinions.

If you`d prefer to just have me insult you back I can go that way too, that way you could try to belittle me and make yourself feel great.

No...I liked the opinions that came w/o BS...they are much appreciated...even looking past some...I got what I asked for.

As for insults.....I'd say we are balanced here....it never makes me feel better.....

DP

Posted by: kuso

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain

As you insults.....I'd say we are balnaced here....

I`m sorry...even?? Please take the time to show me where I have insulted you here??

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Posted by: kuso

If that was insulting to you, then tough shit........your sudden change leaves me feeling I`ve ferreted out the truth

Posted by: dg806

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
....what grades do you think most choose to put in your supps?
DP

I have always believed you get what you pay for and that is true is what ever your buying(Clothes, sports equipment,electronics)...............

Posted by: Prince

I think we need a group hug!

to say that you're not in business for a profit is contradictory, UNLESS you are financially set (multi-millionaire) and you are truley running a business to help people and give yourself a feeling of worth.

if you owned a casino or a bar then I could see reason to feel guilty or morally responsible for irresposible people blowing their money, but selling supps is just a retail business like any other. You have the goods that people want, so they come in and buy them, it's not your duty to worry about what they should or should not be spending it on.

NOW, if you told people "take this pill and you will lose 30 pounds the first 2 weeks", or "take this pill and you will gain 20 pounds of solid musle", then you would have reason to feel guilty...but I assume you would never make any outrageous claims.

My conclusion is what I have said all along, you need to figure out if running a supplement business is really what you want to do. From what I know of you and what you have said in this thread I would say that you are having some serious doubts.

AS far as degrees go, I do not even know how that came into this discussion. I am working on my Master's in Business Management now, so what. My bachelor's is in Liberal Arts with a emphasis in psychology, philosophy and sociology and I have spent the last 7 years working in Information Technology. The reason I mention all of this is because I spend all of my free time discussing bodybuilding, fitness, nutrition, etc and working out.

Now isn't that ironic? My point is I have no formal education or degree in the field I work in, nor in the field that I spend my free time in, yet I consider myself quite knowledgeable in both.

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Prince, your right...and I'm sorry this thread got out of hand...my apologies to all.

I have always been conflicted about this business, but "bottomline" (a business term and why this turned to business savvy and terminolgy) is that I can do far more good than harm.......the problem is allowing people to "hurt thmeselves"....whether it be physically from dangerous or bad supps or financially......we have on many occassions...taken customers aside and said...."What are you doing here?"

Also, what I was saying is that I have notched/figured out a way to have both, I do make a good living from "Doing the right thing" when I can....and looking the other way when I can't. The "Eduacation versus Supps" need for opinions was/is real....it's one thing I have not come to terms with. Have no doubt that I know what I'm doing Business wise.....

Some people have no value of money, hell yes, give it to me, some say they care or are straped.......we suggest minimalism, only what you absolutely need, most are in between.

Just FYI........my business is for sell, has been for a while.......and not because I want to do anything else.......I've even offered to remain as an employee to prospective buyers. The reason we have our store on the market, is the same reason we didn't work much for the first five years of our son's life. We have only a little time left before he leaves the nest....and working sometimes 9-10 hours days and 6-7 days a week.......well.....there are many things worth more than $$$.

DP

p.s. Your last comment has a common ring.....I've taught Physical Education at the University level w/no formal training in PE or Education....lol

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Quote:

Originally posted by dg806
I have always believed you get what you pay for and that is true is what ever your buying(Clothes, sports equipment,electronics)...............

You're very right, but I just want to make a comment about this:

Let's look an Internationally known product....call it CELLCRAP to protect the innocent

This product is made by a jobber, then shipped to warehouses and distribution centers, the Company only sees the $$$

3.5 pounds of dextrose bought in bulk (as everything here) 20 CENTS A POUND ....$.70

420 grams of the cheapest creatine money can buy...say $8-9 per kilo....$4

Misicule amount of ALA and Taurine, if it is even in the product, cheapest available $.30

Bottle, lable assembly, packing, labor $.60

So we are at $5.60 plus FOBD shipping......maybe $.40

Now Advertising should be a fraction of the cost on this product....but since they made it as cheaply as they could, let's say advertising/promotion of this product is $.50 a unit

This $6.50 product then has the margin jacked out of it before the distributor get's it, distributor marks it up 25%, but settles for less to be competitve...and by the time it reaches the consumer, it's SRP is $59.99

What a crock of shit, or should I say canister of shit!

Point is, quality can be deceiving!

Posted by: Prince

with most products you get what you pay for, meaning the more expensive product is typically higher quality...but as with everything in life there are exceptions to this "rule", supplements are definitely one of the rule breakers and MuscleTech is not the only company that does this.

DP, this is interesting though because awhile back you said that my multi-vitamin that I get from Sam's Club is garbage and you said I should spend more money on an expensive multi-vitamin. Even though you have no idea what brand of vitamin I get from Sam's Club it seemed that you made this judgement based on the fact that it's relatively inexpensive.

Posted by: Dr. Pain

Or....maybe I have seen what Sam's Club has to offer........and know that there is a world of differnce?

DP

Price doesn't not equal quality........Believe or not, a Company, their business ethics , business plan, mission statement, internal politics, production managers, and quality assurance dept. determine quality. The Bean Counters and Financial people such as myself...usually undermine "Top Quality" but pointing out how to cut corners and save $$$. It's usually an awesome CEO that put's his foot down...and says, no, you can show us how to be more efficient, w/o sacrificing quality.

A general rule, the larger and more seqmented the Corportaion, is looking at your Sam's Club purchase as $$$ to it's "Profit Center" or Vitamin Division...and dicates your quality or lack there-of

Posted by: kuso

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
"Eduacation versus Supps" need for opinions was/is real

Now that could have been a decent thread, but I guess your ego/superiority complex had to rear if head.

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