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Do you follow a religion

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Posted by: Robboe

If so, why?

Because of fear, or because of faith?

I'm always curious to people's beliefs. My time is limited now, but i'll try and keep a float with this thread.



Posted by: naturaltan

nt scribbles in his notepad TDC has opened up a whole can of whoop ass ... hope he survives ... note to self, ducking when you hearing the cry of the religious ...



Posted by: Robboe

Don't cry for me, Argentina, I'm well versed. Not to worry.



Posted by: craig777

Hey TCD, for the first time in 24 years of lifting I had to pray to the porcelin god last Saturday doing legs with Jill.

Is that a religion



Posted by: butterfly

I'm staying fffaaarrrr away from this one



Posted by: DaMayor

No, I think this would be worth the discussion.

Kick it off there, TCD. (I want to hear this)



Posted by: Var

I was raised Roman Catholic, lost faith in most of it during my teenage years, and started reading up on Eastern religions. Now I'm in my mid 20's and still don't have a clue. I really like the ideals of Buddhism (being man based, rather than God), but have yet to find a religion that feels like the whole truth to me.
There's my two cents for you TCD.

<edit> Oh yeah...I think for me it's both fear and faith. Of course if there's no afterlife, I won't be around to worry about it anyway.



Posted by: flexy

yes. bodybuilding.



Posted by: Jodi

Oh boy! This will be fun to watch



Posted by: Var

I love debates about religion. Always a firey topic. Seems like the IM'ers are timid about this one though.



Posted by: kuso

Originally posted by Var
I love debates about religion. Always a firey topic. Seems like the IM'ers are timid about this one though.
I think a few remember the shit storm at another board about it is all.....personally I don`t mind at all...debate away.



Posted by: Rissole

Yeah, i'm a Christian. Been one for about 10yrs now.



Posted by: Dale Mabry

I subscribe to my own perswonal beliefs. I do not know what they are yet, gimme a couple hundred more years and I will be able to tell you more. I find nothing wrong with religion if that is the particular philosophy you follow, just stay away from little boys and I don't have any issues with you.



Posted by: J'Bo

Well here comes J'Bo ready to start shit once again

i was born a ukranian catholic and really i have no idea what that means....all i remember is having to be dragged out of the house on Sunday morning in a frilly little dress and pig tails....we had to go into this horid church that had tiny little doors (like in that kids movie that still frightens me) and creeky floors and smelled like bleach...we had to listen to someone speak about who knows what and color....then we begged our dad to take us for ice cream and we always went home for crackers and cheese instead
after about 3 years we all stopped going cause everyone whined too much.

about 2 years ago i decided to make my grandmother happy and go to see what church was all about once again.
*please dont bash me for saying this its only my impression on the church i was at*
i could not believe some of the things these people were saying and it made me very sad to hear...i left wondering if children should be explained religion more instead of brain washed and led to believe that one churches or one priests way is the correct way.

last year my father was getting remarried and wanted to have a church ceremony with his new wife (who had never been married before)....they werent allowed to go in because he was divorced and he would have had to have his first marriage anoled (however you spell it)....he refused because that would have meant that i was never born....i commend him.

after that i began to search inside myself for strength and power rather than going to listen to someone preach about something that doesnt mean anything to me. i have found it and have found a religion that isnt comprised of me chanting "i give my life to you" and so forth....

sorry for getting deep.




Posted by: Dale Mabry

Last year, my nephew had some sort of religious event occur on his 1st birthday, I think it was a christening. So, once the ceremony finished, we were all in the lobby and some friend of my borthers in-laws went to my nephew and said, "Hello little Adam, now your not a little pagan anymore."

I just thought that was a funny little story.



Posted by: J'Bo

yah well apparently my little brother was a bastard til he was 3....i never understood that until now (2 years later) and he whines all the time just joking. he is my and soul.



Posted by: S.O.S

most of my family is Irish and Chatolic. Now, i do believe in God or some form of a higher power but i dont believe in church or most any form of organized religion that wants you to come to some building every week and pray for what they consider to be your sins. I dont know what God is or what the purpose of life is but i dont belive most religions do either. while most of the ideas in any religion are good the way they try to make you belive one religion is going to lead you down a path to salvation any better the another religion is wrong. while i find nothing wrong with people going to church or temple or whatever i dont like it when they start a discussion on religion and get mad when you dont believe the same as them. now i am not educated enough on all religions to consider them all the same nor am i planning on learning more about them. i am just going to live life the way i want, hopefully make the right chooses acorrding to what i beleive is right, and be able to properly correct mistakes i might make. but this is just my opinion.



Posted by: Prince

TCD, why didn't you include:

If not, why?

I do not follow any religeon, cause I think they're all a load of crap!



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

I won't get too deep into my personal beliefs, because they are mine and they are personal. But the original question and how it is phrased, shows how "personal faith" and "religion" are usually misunderstood. People can easily adhere to a faith, but unfortunately, the misinformed lump them into a religion. I've seen some religious people do some really stupid stuff...they are human afterall. But I have also known some very devout, good people overlook much of my stupidity too and not judge me for it either.



Posted by: I Are Baboon

I was born and thrust into Roman Catholicism. I do not practice the religion, but I remain in it out of obligation to my family, who certainly practice more than I do. I go through the motions during the religious holidays, but to me it's just a bunch of rituals. I find it ludicrous to belive that, if there is an afterlife, my fate will be decided upon whether or not I go to church on Sundays and confess my wrongdoings to a priest. Load of crap if you ask me.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by Prince
TCD, why didn't you include:

If not, why?

I do not follow any religeon, cause I think they're all a load of crap!
Let me ask you this then. How did we get here?

If you answer is evolution...you have a religion. Evolution requires just as much faith as Christianity.

My intent is not to fuel this debate but to point out, everyone has religion and everyone has a god...not the God of the Bible always. Saying that there is no god indicates that you have infinite knowlege to KNOW that there is no god.



Posted by: Prince

Originally posted by Pepper
Let me ask you this then. How did we get here?

If you answer is evolution...you have a religion. Evolution requires just as much faith as Christianity.

My intent is not to fuel this debate but to point out, everyone has religion and everyone has a god...not the God of the Bible always. Saying that there is no god indicates that you have infinite knowlege to KNOW that there is no god.
You are putting words into my mouth.

The original question asked was: "Do you follow a religeon?"

I never said that there is no god, I said that I do not follow any religeon and I think they're all a load of crap.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by Prince
You are putting words into my mouth.

The original question asked was: "Do you follow a religeon?"

I never said that there is no god, I said that I do not follow any religeon and I think they're all a load of crap.
OK, I got you now. You are correct, I was putting words in your mouth.



Posted by: kuso

Originally posted by Pepper
Let me ask you this then. How did we get here?

Evolution requires just as much faith as Christianity.
Let me first start by mentuoning the fact that I`m quite drunk......BUT....how does evolutionn require faith when we are surrounded by fossils etc maping it out? Sounds more like evidence than faith.



Posted by: shortstuff

Ok my two cents- I don't belive in god as a the christian or chatholic or whaever believes in god. I do follow a set of morals that would go along with a christian or western religious belief. But I do have my own variations. My biggest thing with the whole religios as it seems everyone else here does, is that the churches make too much of a deal about exactly what faith you are and that all others are not the correct one and they will go to hell. I think that is a bunch of crap.

I don't belive in heaven or hell in the biblical sense but that when you die your spirit does move on to a better place.

This is not a opinion of someone who has never know a religion or been raised in one, but I was raised and baptised episcapol and then went a lutheran church for some time, never got into it, at tha stage of life in your preteens and teens when you listened to no one. I have seen the southern baptists, the four square or non denominational churches, the catholic, and some of my best friends are mormon and jewish. So I have had my eyes open to very different views on this subject.

But I do belive that things happen for a reason and that reason is beyond our control and who or what makes this so, we can never know.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by kuso
Let me first start by mentuoning the fact that I`m quite drunk......BUT....how does evolutionn require faith when we are surrounded by fossils etc maping it out? Sounds more like evidence than faith.
The fossil record does not support evolution. In fact, the biggest enemy of the theory of evolution is the paleontologists.

There is very little evidence to support evolution.

I read a book called "Darwin on Trial" by an attorney (and not written from a Christian perspective) that does an excellent job of outlining why evolution is such a ridiculous theory absent the belief in a creator.

I'll stop now, I can talk about this for days.



Posted by: J'Bo

oh oh here we go.......TCD is sitting back starting to giggle now



Posted by: kuso

Originally posted by Pepper
(and not written from a Christian perspective)


a ridiculous theory absent the belief in a creator.
Sounda to me like a Christian perspective that doesn`t want to be labeled as such. If I hve a chance I`ll look the book up though

Anyone anti religion has the sources to back their claim though, as anyone religious has them to back thiers.



Posted by: shortstuff

I would love to see the background on the author, obviously he is not going to write how he was raised and what his beliefs and thoughts and views are in the book outloud, but to look at his background could give someone an insite to how the book was written, and being a lawyer he is ab;e to argue his point a bit more effectively then the lay person



Posted by: kuso

Originally posted by shortstuff
I would love to see the background on the author, obviously he is not going to write how he was raised and what his beliefs and thoughts and views are in the book outloud, but to look at his background could give someone an insite to how the book was written, and being a lawyer he is ab;e to argue his point a bit more effectively then the lay person
Great minds think alike



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by kuso
Sounda to me like a Christian perspective that doesn`t want to be labeled as such. If I hve a chance I`ll look the book up though

Anyone anti religion has the sources to back their claim though, as anyone religious has them to back thiers.

My point is that anyone who states "There is no god" is making just as much of a leap of faith as, say a Christian.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by shortstuff
I would love to see the background on the author, obviously he is not going to write how he was raised and what his beliefs and thoughts and views are in the book outloud, but to look at his background could give someone an insite to how the book was written, and being a lawyer he is ab;e to argue his point a bit more effectively then the lay person
Darwin on Trial
Phillip E. Johnson
Graduate of Harvard and U. of Chicago.

Here it is on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books



Posted by: kuso

Originally posted by Pepper
Darwin on Trial
Phillip E. Johnson
Graduate of Harvard and U. of Chicago.

Here it is on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
Need we go firther than Amazon then?

" While the book presents a skewed view of the scientific process, occasionally losing all pretense of objectivity, it may be of value to lay readers seeking a creationist perspective on evolution."



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by kuso
Need we go firther than Amazon then?

" While the book presents a skewed view of the scientific process, occasionally losing all pretense of objectivity, it may be of value to lay readers seeking a creationist perspective on evolution."
I'd like to see this fossil record you are talking about!


If you'll read that book, I'll buy it for you and then you can comment on it first-hand.



Posted by: kuso

Originally posted by Pepper
I'd like to see this fossil record you are talking about!

In general I was speaking of course....though from my limited knowldge the Aboriginal for instance ( or older fossiles ), doesn`t fit anywhere into the bible.....and I think it is the bible that most have problesm with .

Originally posted by Pepper
If you'll read that book, I'll buy it for you and then you can comment on it first-hand.
How could I refuse that LOL

I did take a look at some of the other reviews though ( not only the offical Amazon review I quoted ) and it seems more of the 5 star raters rate many similar books the same way....if you get my drift.


Anyhoo.....I`m not arguing whether or not god exsists......



Posted by: Pepper

Darwin's Black Box is good too, but I found it much more difficult to read b/c it is more technical. Actually, some of you guys may like it better.

It talked about the building of amino acid chains, etc. I found my self reading chapters over and over.



Posted by: trinsdad

Aristotle once said when questioned about the belief of God, "The only thing I know for sure, is that I know absolutely nothing is for sure."

If fit for me.

I cannot prove one way or the other to know anything "for certain" I guess thats why they call it faith.

I will have to wait and see.



Posted by: shortstuff

I LOVE YOUR VIEW ON THAT TRINSDAD



Posted by: trinsdad

Thank you, lets hope that if there is a God..that he was understanding enough to know that we are fallible humans.





Posted by: bludevil

I'm a baptist.
To answer the original question, I'm religious because both I fear god and I have faith their is a god. Before I got saved I felt the same as many people on this board. Actually I thought the bible was just some book some organized goverment wrote hundreds of years ago to help keep a peacful civilization. But I've had a few personal things happen to me that made me have a change in heart. I started attending church and just felt something in my heart. So, I decided to get saved and baptized. I can tell you (only my opinion, not forcing anything on anyone) that once I got saved, I could feel god working for me and through me. It was and still is amazing, I can pray for certain things and within a short period the prayer is answered. The prayer thing has happened to many times to just be coincidental. I absolutely believe that Jesus Christ was god's son, who died for our sins, and if we ask for his forgiveness then we will be saved. Again, this is my opinion and belief. Not trying to push anything, just answering the question.



Posted by: J'Bo

well i believe that when people are troubled they look for answers in something or someone greater than them.....whether it be a role model or god (who ever that may be).....as a general rule look to those you admire and learn from them.



Posted by: shortstuff

good point J- oh i am being tortured at work WE HAVE DONUTSQ!!!!!!



Posted by: DaMayor

Religion was created by man, for man. Unfortunately, in some cases it has become a business rather than a shared belief system, which is what has turned people like Prince off. And I agree, or understand, to some extent. Of course, this is not to say that all churches are bad, or that all religion is a waste of time.
The key word here is faith. Now, my Grandmother's definition of faith might vary drastically from mine, but all in all, it is faith that keeps us all afloat. Whether you believe that Jesus was the son of God or just a man, or that Allah is the only God, whatever.....It is our belief and trust in that innate "good" that is housed deep within us that directs and guides us. Not beautiful architectural structures with steeples that stretch into the clouds, not great speakers who inspire us via their extensive theatrical training, not beautiful harp music or a gelded offerring plate overflowing with bills. It's about pressing on when you've asked a question and received no answer, and believing that your kids will do a better job with this world than you have, and maintaining confidence that when it is all over, and you take your last breath, that the light at the end of the tunnel will be more than your brain powering down.
While the movie Stigmata was perhaps not the finest film to ever hit the screen, it did introduce me to the writings of St. Thomas, which were (indirectly) quoted:

"The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone. Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there."

I was Baptist, now I'm Methodist. It doesn't really matter. It is simply about doing the right thing.




Posted by: J'Bo

Originally posted by shortstuff
good point J- oh i am being tortured at work WE HAVE DONUTSQ!!!!!!
cant breath......cant see.....donuts........need donuts.



Posted by: J'Bo

ps my god is Vin Diesel



Posted by: bludevil

Originally posted by DaMayor
Religion was created by man, for man. Unfortunately, in some cases it has become a business rather than a shared belief system, which is what has turned people like Prince off. And I agree, or understand, to some extent. Of course, this is not to say that all churches are bad, or that all religion is a waste of time.
The key word here is faith. Now, my Grandmother's definition of faith might vary drastically from mine, but all in all, it is faith that keeps us all afloat. Whether you believe that Jesus was the son of God or just a man, or that Allah is the only God, whatever.....It is our belief and trust in that innate "good" that is housed deep within us that directs and guides us. Not beautiful architectural structures with steeples that stretch into the clouds, not great speakers who inspire us via their extensive theatrical training, not beautiful harp music or a gelded offerring plate overflowing with bills. It's about pressing on when you've asked a question and received no answer, and believing that your kids will do a better job with this world than you have, and maintaining confidence that when it is all over, and you take your last breath, that the light at the end of the tunnel will be more than your brain powering down.
While the movie Stigmata was perhaps not the finest film to ever hit the screen, it did introduce me to the writings of St. Thomas, which were (indirectly) quoted:

"The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone. Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there."

I was Baptist, now I'm Methodist. It doesn't really matter. It is simply about doing the right thing.
Nice Post



Posted by: shortstuff

He is HOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Need I say more, hello Fast and Furious and then XXX(wonder why they really called it that LOL)



Posted by: J'Bo

cause he used to be in XXX movies.....opps that was just one that we made ........hot doesnt even describe that creature from heaven....intensifys when you are a horn doggy too

pst ss you thirsty on this stuff? cause i have downed 3 liters already



Posted by: shortstuff

OMG between that and all the EC and yohimbe and everything I seriously go through about 2 gllons if not more a day (bathroom break every 15-30 minutes LOL)

Oh I need a poster of him over my bed and him in my bed!!!!



Posted by: J'Bo

there is a thread on here just about vin.
i will bump it for you.
i am getting the one of him in the shower.................ahhhhh moment. must leave to get batteries now



Posted by: shortstuff

Ok tell me where I can get it and I am so going to love that thread!



Posted by: DaMayor

From religion to donuts to Vin, horn doggy, and EC....Yep, I think we've covered all the bases.



Posted by: shortstuff

hey to some people food is their religion, look at the state of the uS among other countries and their reliance on food to turn to.



Posted by: DaMayor

Ah, you mean, like, a dessert deity?



Posted by: DaMayor

Goulash God?



Posted by: DaMayor

Supernatural Supper?



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by DaMayor
Religion was created by man, for man.
Because of cross-references between the many, many religions, this can only be seen as correct. Personally, i also agree.

How do people from certain religions feel about the way their gods and prophets are presented in other religions? For instance, in christianity and all those related, Jesus Christ is the Son of God - quite a point of authority as far as the whole bible thing goes, however in muslim he is merely (a term i use here comparitively) a prophet.

There are clearly flaws in logic and continuity for all religions. In fact, the faiths are based on writings of many hundreds of years ago. There is no solid proof that any of it actually took place, so when people say they believe because of faith, is it not more because they fear what will happen to them if they don't believe and it turns out to be true? They fear what will happen? In this case, is fear and faith not interchangable?

Do people live in fear of their God(s) and not in love of them? Why choose to follow a way of life that induces fear?

Have you ever considered that religion started out basically like the current police forces of the world as a means to keep law and order, but using that which cannot be explained as a means to induce fear into the people so they follow the rules?

Maybe when certain followers disliked various rules, they broke from convention to start their own religions but included the gods, stories (noah's ark is not confined to christianity and cathlocism alone) and apparations of their previous religions?

Or maybe they migrated and took their religions with them but twisted them for their own benefit? Could this explain why there is a different populus regarding the various religions? (i.e. more muslims in the middle east and asia etc...)

So the ten commandments are pretty much the "stanard" of most religions - ten laws to abide by or else you will have to face the fury of your God. So you'd expect that once you broke one, you're done for, right? Oh course not! You can reconcile your sins and be cleared.

Hmmmm...This is suspect to me. Maybe the religions worked at first, but once someone believed their ticket to heaven was gone they just got worse? Maybe reconciliation is just a means of restoring order once it has gone? There is always a possibilty and all that jazz.

It worked for a long time, but since science is more prominent these days, more and more people are looking less to the "heavens" since more and more can be explained scientifically. For example, the dinosaurs. No mention of them in the bibles or kurrans, eh? No two triceritops boarded the Ark in Noah's tale eh? Could that be because back then they didn't have the scientific techniques to discover the dinosaurs? Would God not have let on about them? Were they his first "model" of life before thinking "fuck it" and starting again?

I was christened as a child and up till the age of about 15-16 as a regular church goer. Not because i believed (i rarely paid attention anyway) but because i knew it made my dad feel better. I did it out of fear of hurting his feelings, not faith in God. Since science has become more of an interest to me, i don't believe at all. I DO think there must be some sort of super-being somewhere, but that he has nothing to do with the abundance of religions on earth. I DO think that a man called Jesus once lived and was the focal point of the bibles. Whether his "miracles" were achieved because he turned out to be the first hashman or whatever, i dunno.

The only reason i follow the ten commandments (because i do for the most part) is down to consideration of others and fear of the (heavy) hand of the law. I fear losing freedom in this life, nevermind damnation in another. I like how religion started the idea because he has worked to keep law and order, however, it has also caused problems when people are almost "too extreme" in their beliefs that they are willing to harm themselves or others in the name of it. Case point: 9-11, done in the "name of Allah." Would Allah really approve of such an act?

I just don't understand why people follow lifestyle's based on fear of something they have no solid evidence exists. Is that "faith" or just stupidity?

Answer some of my Q's, and don't ruin this thread.



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

Kuso, you are such a drunk moron.

Just because something conflicts with the common secular view, does not mean it was written by a Christian not claiming to be. Christains are not the only people that do not believe in the evolution of man...another common mistake.

NOW GO SOBER UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh and hop on AIM sometime you slacker. lol



Posted by: shortstuff

Have any of you read the series of books about the end of the world and prphets and, dang it I can not remember the name of them, any one know??



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

Originally posted by trinsdad
Thank you, lets hope that if there is a God..that he was understanding enough to know that we are fallible humans.
I think that is all of our hope and many of our beliefs trinsdad.

One thing I noticed about your response, and maybe I am taking what you said too literally or analyzing what you are saying too closely. But you mentioned that you hope the "God"(Big G) knows that we are fallible humans. Well since you are using a Big G I am ASSuming you speak of the God of the Bible. It does not take a Christian to know, of course God knows we are fallible, that was the reason for Jesus in the first place.

As for TCD's reference to Jusus when it comes to other religions, that brings up a VERY good point. And one that I will never understand. How can Islam or any other not Christian faith(no slam on Islam or any other faiths so save your flames) believe that Jesus was a prophet and a great man? Because if he was not the Son of God as he said he was, then that would make him the biggest liar that ever lived. So therefor, how could he be a prophet...much less a good man? How could anyone say a liar was a good man or religious leader? Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying Jesus was a liar, but rather how can people believe he was a good man, if they do not believe He was who He said he was? That would make him a liar correct?

As for Christians living in fear, you need to read the Bible and understand the reference and context that fear is used. I know you have access to it yourself, so I will not insult your intellegence by typing it for you. Everyone wants answers but do not want look for them.

Religion and faith are still being too intertwined though. Some great aswers though. some sound like they were taken straight out of some college sophamore philosophy classroom. Not all but some.

As far as people looking more to science and less the "heaven" as you put it. You are right, because you can just as easily twist science to create the effect you want. It is tangible, and that is ideal for those that lack any kind of faith in anything. Don't forget Christianity was the basis for the early scientist whos laws and finding are still the foundation of science today.

Great discussion though. Hopefully it stays somewhat civil. The only trouble with threads like this, it always invokes people to speak their passion and then they are lynched for being rigid and unbending in their views. But then again is that not what principles are all about? lol



Posted by: Rissole

Originally posted by tidalwaverus
18 For (36) the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (37) suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because (38) that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For (39) since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (40) being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not [3] honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (41) futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


22 (42) Professing to be wise, they became fools,

I choose to beleive in Jesus Christ. Life is all about choosing
Tidal, you could've taken the verse numbers out



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

Originally posted by shortstuff
Have any of you read the series of books about the end of the world and prphets and, dang it I can not remember the name of them, any one know??
Left Behind. Great series, whether you read it strictly as fiction or insight to Revelations.



Posted by: shortstuff

read it as both but reapproved my thoughts on religion being BS



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

Originally posted by shortstuff
read it as both but reapproved my thoughts on religion being BS
Care to share why?

Also, you could not read it as both. you either read it as a believer in the Bible or you do not not...but not both.

I agree, much religion is BS, but I'm sure our definitions of religion differ.



Posted by: shortstuff

i find it hard to believe in all that, i guess some people believe yes I believe no, i will stop so i don't give uneducated answers.



Posted by: DaMayor

I choose to beleive in Jesus Christ. Life is all about choosing
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

However, it is also perfectly understandable for any thinking man or woman to question their, or any form of, religion. Religion was always a major factor in my upbringing, as with 99% of people living in the South. (Most of which are Southern Baptists)However, I have always questioned certain aspects of religion, and will continue to do so until my dying day. The important thing is that we (or I) never lose sight of the big picture.....which is what I attempted to describe earlier.

The Bible as a Historical Text...
I once had a literature prof. who said that the Bible was perhaps the greatest historical work known to man....and nothing else. At the time, I paid little attention to the comment, but as time went on, I found myself questioning his statement.
The Bible is only as good as the interpretor. Those who follow the Bible literally, word for word, are missing the point. True, some of the lessons taught should be taken literally, yet the majority of the message within is expressed via symbolism.
Like Rob said, the leaders during biblical times were just that...leaders. Priests were political figures as well as spiritual, and often had exclusive access or prayer rights with God. It seems only logical that they would have used this "privilege" in order to curtail the behavior of the people when they strayed beyond what was considered 'socially acceptable'. Fear is a great motivator...an excellent tool for those who know how to use it, yet destructive for those who don't. Most of this type of goverment ocurred in the old testment, and later we are introduced to a more loving God in the new testament.
Back to the general topic.
Convenience motivated interpretation of Religion.....
As with every other aspect of our lives, we often rearrange information to our benefit. Humans are selfish creatures by nature. I don't think we react due to fear as much as we do for convenience.
The Ten Commandments.....
My money says that Moses was the smartest guy in the crowd, who was a bit more in touch with his conscience. This is not to say that he wasn't inspired from above. Since I was not there I cannot dispute this. However, I do think that the Ten Commandments were written based on experience. In other words, all of the things that consistently didn't sit well with the old conscience were written down in an attempt to guide those who were, for whatever intellectual reason, unable to control themselves. Odds are we'd write something similar today.
Jesus, son of God or Prophet?......
This is the one that is cause for many cautiously posed questions for me personally. Based on the information that is being discovered every day, I often wonder who this man really was. Since this is a volume unto itself, let it suffice to say that regardless of whether he was born of a mortal or omnipitant being, his lessons and life were the message....and that is what is important.



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

Thanks for your honestly shortstuff.

Naturally people become defensive and unfortunately, hostile on these topics. But if you ask anyone here that knows me, I'm NEVER defensive or hostile.

These topics tend to stay more civil when we say we don't believe in or agree with someone else's beliefs, rather than call them BS.

That would be like me saying saying your avatar is BS, when I could just as easily say that I don't agree with your choice of bra color. lol BTW, nice avatar and nice back shot.



Posted by: shortstuff

well thank you, i don't want peoploe to think I am just prejudiced and not open minded, I am very and that is how I came to my conclusion, so thank you for the honesty.



Posted by: DaMayor

This is just a discussion, not a dispute. Just knocking around ideas.
Oh yeah, sorry for the book Trouble is, it ain't finished yet.



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

Well put DM



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

Well halleluah, someone has finally come to this board(shortstuff) and not mistaken what I said and called me names within the first ten minutes that they met me. Kinda refreshing.



Posted by: shortstuff

he he look at another thread i did do that today at someone else LOL



Posted by: Dero

Originally posted by BUSTINOUT
Well halleluah, someone has finally come to this board(shortstuff) and not mistaken what I said and called me names within the first ten minutes that they met me. Kinda refreshing.
I could call you names....
IF YOU REALLY WANT!!!
IF YOU REALLY NEED IT!!!




Posted by: BUSTINOUT

watchit hippie boy.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
For example, the dinosaurs. No mention of them in the bibles or kurrans, eh? No two triceritops boarded the Ark in Noah's tale eh?
This point is debatable. There is a reference in Job to a "behemoth." (SP?)

I have trouble interpreting Genesis and I get in trouble constantly at my church b/c I intepret the Hebrew word "yom" in Genesis to mean either a 24-hour day or a period of time. Don't get me wrong, I believe the theory of evolution is one of the most unsupported scientific theories of all time. I am not motivated by a desire to reconcile the Bible with evolution. Evolution is absurd.

However, if "yom" means a period of time, we have an easier time with the dinosaurs and the apparent age of the earth.

I am a Christrian. I believe that before the foundation of the world, God chose me and therefore I believe. I believe in the Bible. I believe God sent Jesus Christ to die for MY sin and those who believe in him will inherit the kingdom of God (Heaven.) Those who do not, will not. That message may be offesive to some, but it is the Gospel and I believe it.



Posted by: Pepper

I should point out that by evolution, I am not talking about what is refered to as micro-evolution. The best example of micro-evolution would be the polar bear. Clearly, white bears have an advantage in the polar regions so white bears survived.....

this type of species adaptation does clearly happen.

However, a fish sprouting wings or legs ...ah....no!



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
If so, why?
Because of fear, or because of faith?
I enjoin this discussion not to debate but to state a portion of my beliefs.

Little can be expressed in written word to adequately convey my feelings here. So I am compelled somewhat beyond prose and more toward imagery and metaphor to convey some small part of this. Suffer me if you will.

Yes I do [follow a Religion] just like everyone else does (if you think you are not then you are deceiving yourself). I do so because I hold with conviction that the very nature of humankind is much more than can be readily fathomed or conceived from a parochial and temporal state of physical and intellectual insight; and I thereby reject the religion of secularism or humanism and endeavor to follow Christian traditions and teachings.

An intimate link with The Divine Creator is available to those who do not distract themselves. This is the Source of my conviction. I assert this axiomatically from a perspective that I trust and personally know to be true. Rather than grasping for equality with God as one would pick an apple in the garden I have come to realize it is much more polite and proper to trust that the garden grows for a purpose. And there is always the high hope we may be invited to share in a complete banquet rather than sit outside the gates in cold isolation clutching stolen fruits; fruits that appeal only to a particular and narrow taste or current fancy (thesis) de-jour.

My intellect, for the portion that I have been granted, is stunned into reverent silence by the magnificent order present in Creation. It screams with deafening majesty – can’t you hear it too? It’s inconceivably infinite in grandeur, beauty and mystery; and this is only from what is discernable to human perception. No doubt there is boundless more. This dichotomy between perception and “What Is” hidden ignites inspiration and brings a fiery twinkle to the eyes of any inclined to seek out truth. And the awareness of that dichotomy and the admission of imperfection is perhaps the great sieve that separates the goats from the sheep. I have come to believe that indifference or the pious devotion to uninspired human explanation (which stems from infantile humanistic logic) always leads to vanity, self worship (the big modern false god and religion of self), and eventually self-destruction. Not all things in Creation are causal or explainable solely from the physical dimension. The only bridge of logic I offer here is that God is Truth and God is manifest in Spirit; and the Truth must be consistently manifest in all things past, present and future; and Truth consistently exists in both physical and spiritual dimensions. So truth centered logic that considers spiritual dimensions can be instrumental – but it takes more. Yes this requires the gift of Faith – so ask for it!

I embrace a Fransiscan perspective. The Moon light compliments the eye’s fiery twinkle; and the Moon’s illumination is a soft reflection received from the Sun (concept borrowed from St. Franci's “Brother Sun, Sister Moon”); and the Sun is but a small but purposely placed point of twinkling light in the Cosmos. The Cosmos is but a single reflection from a single facet of the Creator’s Will. Dare we even speak casually about such Majesty? Fear you ask? Wrong question.

I believe that we are beckoned to fruitful participation as beloved and oftentimes errant “children” to join as part of a Divine Family; to do our part to advance a Divine Will. I am compelled in much the same way that a child is drawn to the embrace of its parents; with a desire to learn, to grow and to find ways to gain approval or favor. Is Faith a part of this? Yes. I have faith and trust that I will be assisted to grow and to be more than I currently am so that I may more instrumental to actions that serve a divine purpose and honor my Heavenly Father.

Back to fear. Is Fear a part of this? It really transcends fear. It’s more like profound respect and thankfulness for being offered the opportunity to participate in this wonderful Creation. Mistakes are forgivable (and corrected – sometimes painfully). Fear is only relevant if one fails to accept the divine invitation through willful and malicious rejection or if one becomes useless. Such a person then only adds to the entropy of the great dump (called “Hell” in the current vernacular). Hell by definition is to be completely isolated and shut off from God and all his Love, Mercy and Grace and any person or heavenly being that loves God – a very scary and lonely thought. But true fear exists only in the absence of God - and God is with us here and now. So I don’t focus on fear since I am focusing on keeping in God’s favor and infinite mercy and forgiveness. If I am receptive to God as his child then it is his job to get me home. What is there to fear if I have faith? God can't fail me if I don't choose to walk away from him. Even if I wander off - he will always send his shepherd to find me as long as I do not hide myself and reject even this act of compassion.



Posted by: katie64

Originally posted by DaMayor
Religion was created by man, for man. Unfortunately, in some cases it has become a business rather than a shared belief system, which is what has turned people like Prince off. And I agree, or understand, to some extent. Of course, this is not to say that all churches are bad, or that all religion is a waste of time.
The key word here is faith. Now, my Grandmother's definition of faith might vary drastically from mine, but all in all, it is faith that keeps us all afloat. Whether you believe that Jesus was the son of God or just a man, or that Allah is the only God, whatever.....It is our belief and trust in that innate "good" that is housed deep within us that directs and guides us. Not beautiful architectural structures with steeples that stretch into the clouds, not great speakers who inspire us via their extensive theatrical training, not beautiful harp music or a gelded offerring plate overflowing with bills. It's about pressing on when you've asked a question and received no answer, and believing that your kids will do a better job with this world than you have, and maintaining confidence that when it is all over, and you take your last breath, that the light at the end of the tunnel will be more than your brain powering down.
While the movie Stigmata was perhaps not the finest film to ever hit the screen, it did introduce me to the writings of St. Thomas, which were (indirectly) quoted:

"The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone. Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there."

I was Baptist, now I'm Methodist. It doesn't really matter. It is simply about doing the right thing.
Great post DM, thanks and I completely agree....



Posted by: bekahleigh23

Originally posted by Pepper

I am a Christrian. I believe that before the foundation of the world, God chose me and therefore I believe. I believe in the Bible. I believe God sent Jesus Christ to die for MY sin and those who believe in him will inherit the kingdom of God (Heaven.) Those who do not, will not. That message may be offesive to some, but it is the Gospel and I believe it.
this pretty much sums up my belief I grew up in an Assembly of God church, protestant. I attended a christian based private school for 3 years 3,4,&5 grades. People probably see me as a non-practicing christian...but I feel i don't have to go to church to be close to God. God and I have a relationship, no one understands it better than him and I. I believe Jesus Christ is my savior. I believe what I believe because of faith not brain washing or fear. I feel a connection with God, and until you feel it...you wouldn't understand. I pray everyone will eventually find that connection and relationship...it is the only relationship sure to last eternity!!!



Posted by: ram84

Pepper,
I was wondering if you have heard of Dr. Kent Hovind? (www.drdino.com). He talks about dinosaurs and the age of the earth.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by ram84
Pepper,
I was wondering if you have heard of Dr. Kent Hovind? (www.drdino.com). He talks about dinosaurs and the age of the earth.
No, I have not heard of him, but I will check him out.

I like this on his site already:
I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution.* My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief.
Amen, brother, Amen!



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by tidalwaverus
Most people want to draw near to God when something bads happens.

TCD are you and your family OK?
I don't want to draw near to him (he who does not exist).

I jsut read FireStorm saying that porn is against his religion/belief and was quite astounded.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
I don't want to draw near to him (he who does not exist).
Then how did we get here?



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by BUSTINOUT
As for Christians living in fear, you need to read the Bible and understand the reference and context that fear is used. I know you have access to it yourself, so I will not insult your intellegence by typing it for you. Everyone wants answers but do not want look for them.
Feel free to explain.

It is an opinion that ultimately all people who follow a religion do it in fear of suffering the wrath of their "god" in the afterlife.

Religion and faith are still being too intertwined though. Some great aswers though. some sound like they were taken straight out of some college sophamore philosophy classroom. Not all but some.
My post?

My post was written off the top of my head last night. I live in the UK and don't know what "sophamore" even means. A schooling term? Also, philosophy is not part of the curicculum in British schools. I've never sat a philosophy class in my life.



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by Pepper
Then how did we get here?
tidalwaverus seemed to indicate that this thread originated from me wanting to draw near God.

At least that is how i interpreted it.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
tidalwaverus seemed to indicate that this thread originated from me wanting to draw near God.

At least that is how i interpreted it.
OK, I may be confused b/c I have not read every post since last night...so...

but I was asking, if you do not believe in God (or a god,) how do we exist?



Posted by: Robboe

I believe in the big bang theory creating matter.

This gave rise to the elements we're familiar with today. Over time things got more complex. Then, i'm not sure how or why, but mitochondria formed or appeared. These lead to single-celled organisms and bacteria and such. Between then and now, evolution.

At least, until something else more believable is discovered, this is the best theory.

If you scroll up a couple of my posts, you'll see my stance on a superbeing or higher power. I just don't see truth in any man-made religion currently in existence.



Posted by: Pepper

Darwin's theory was that each species developed a trait that made the new species superior to the old. The new survived, the old did not. Correct?

Riddle me this:

How is 5% of a wing or 5% of an eye (note: not 5% vision, but 5% of an eye) an advantage? A developing wing would possibly have been a DISADVANTAGE, but hardly an advantage. 5% of vision would be an advantage but how does a growing eye provide advantage? And if it does not, Darwin's theory is wrong.

Vision and flight just do not require eyes and wings, they require many other "traits" to be of any use. Were these traits developing (randomly) while the eye was developing? And if so, why? How is a neuro-transmitter to the brain an advantage with no working eye?

Darwinism has real problems and when those problems are ignored or overlooked, Darwinism becomes a religion and NOT science. There is little empirical evidence to support evolution, that is not science.



Posted by: DaMayor

Okay, I've got one for y'all. Now, this is pretty far fetched, but something to consider. (keep in mind that this was born of a drunken debate back during my college days)

What if evolution and/or the big bang, and Jesus' were all connected....all part of a project so vast and complex that we just don't have the intellectual (or psychological) ability to comprehend? Obviously, Jesus wasn't from around here...So, where was he from? (Son of) God, right? That's what we are told in the Bible. But where is God? We're taught that he resides in Heaven. Where is Heaven? Up in the clouds? Beyond the clouds? Perhaps somewhere near the outermost borders of the furthest Galaxy? See where I'm going? Yeah, it's weird...fasten your seat belts...
What if the planets, and the stars, the earth, and mankind were all part of an experiment performed by a being so advanced technologically that we could never understand [his] methods or motives? Wouldn't this, to some degree, bring together the various theories that have been disputed for years? What if we are all part of another's trial and error? What if the Big Bang was simply a miscalculation? Oops! Wrong formulation! Boom.
What if Evolution was driven by factors purposely introduced into the equation as time went on?
What about Jesus? Could Jesus have been a representative of God? Think about the Holy Trinity...Father, Son and Holy Ghost(spirit)....could Jesus have been a representation of God in human form? Something we could relate to, and hopefully, learn from? Part of a distant race, again, more advanced both technologically and spiritually than we? (Yes, I'm talking about E.T.'s) Wouldn't this explain his good deeds, his ability to heal, raise the dead, levitate, etc.?

What if we live in a big old ant farm......and we're the ants?

Just something to consider.....I don't pass out pamphlets on this.





Posted by: DaMayor

*IM members everywhere scratch their heads*



Posted by: ZECH

There is no use in me explaining how God created everything in Genisis because someone will debate it. But here is a good quote.
(God to Job) "Where where thou when I laid the foundation of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding"



Posted by: bludevil

I only have one other statement to make, why do almost 99% of people who don't believe in God who are on death row or people who just found out they are about to die suddenly start praying to God for him to forgive them. I think if people would think with their heart and not their head they would have absolute faith that their is a god.
If these so-called non-believers really don't believe then why do they have a sudden change of heart on their death bed.



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

bd, good question. I think you hit the nail on the head, but it not only applies to people about to be put to death but everyone about to suffer consequences for their actions. Where people get this impression that they can do anything and everything they want whether it hurts others or not, and expect to get the same rewards as those that lived by the "rules" boggles my mind. Bunch of welfare minded "entitlement mentality" cases. But I cannot say that I would not do the same if I were not a Christian and I thought I was about to enter eternity in a very scary place. So I cannot speak for those folks.

One question I have for all those that are always asking "if there is a god, why do these bad things always seem to happen to me". Answer me this...why is it the only time you even remotely address god is when things go bad, yet you don't give him a second thought while things are going good. Just another example of people loving to take credit, but always looking to place blame. News flash...actions have consequences...god or no god.

TCD, no I do not care to explain...read closer...look it up yourself. But just as sort of a condensed version here. Not everyone is motivated by fear and pain. Many Christians worship because they believe they have been shown mercy and grace. They try to live a Godly life out of love for God for what he has done for them. Not always fear. Have you ever had a teacher or a coach that was your biggest nightmare when you did not play by the rules or follow instructions? But they were the best teacher or coach you could ever have when you did as instructed. And in most cases you even learned more when you actually listened. Did you obey that teacher or coach out of fear? In some ways yes...you want to pass the class don't you? You want to make the team and play 1st string don't you? HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fear motivates many of us. We get better educations for fear of failing and becoming homeless or whatever. Then there are those that feel that even though they did not play by the rules and go to scool and study, they should get the same results and rewards as those who did. So yes, everyone is driven by fear in some way and to some degree.

As for me referring to your post as sophomoric...

I was actually not even meaning you because rarely do you post a reply that would resembling anything quoted from a professor. That is not a jab at your aducation level at all. Just most of the time you have more of a hit and run appoach. Throw the contoversial topic out there and watch the fireworks...yet contribute very little substance to the topic started. So, no. I was not referring to you. I do however think it is a good topic to discuss. When people can agree to disagree it is always a good thing. It is when people shoot down and flame others for their beliefs, yet offer none of their own, that makes threads go to crap...fast.



Posted by: DaMayor

In defense of TCD, he has said several times recently that he is short on time. I think he's responding when he can......
(I believe he can spar well enough not to need the hit and run approach.)

Dude's just busy......

Carry on, gentlemen.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by DaMayor
In defense of TCD, he has said several times recently that he is short on time. I think he's responding when he can......
(I believe he can spar well enough not to need the hit and run approach.)

Dude's just busy......

Carry on, gentlemen.

Another "defense," there have been no fireworks. Been a surprisingly civil discussion.



Posted by: DaMayor

Very true, and very fortunate.

(although I'm surprised I didn't get nailed for my last hypothesis. )



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by DaMayor
Very true, and very fortunate.

(although I'm surprised I didn't get nailed for my last hypothesis. )
I am holding my fire since you are a fellow "hick."



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by Pepper
Darwin's theory was that each species developed a trait that made the new species superior to the old. The new survived, the old did not. Correct?
That's the survival of the fittest theory.

Darwin theorised loads, not just once. And he's not the only one to theorise about evolution.

The remainder of your post really is a riddle, cause i have no idea what you're talking about.



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Pepper
I am holding my fire since you are a fellow "hick."

"Lock and load... fire in the hole..."



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by bludevil
I only have one other statement to make, why do almost 99% of people who don't believe in God who are on death row or people who just found out they are about to die suddenly start praying to God for him to forgive them. I think if people would think with their heart and not their head they would have absolute faith that their is a god.
If these so-called non-believers really don't believe then why do they have a sudden change of heart on their death bed.
Fear.

Quite a good example actually, well done.



Posted by: Robboe

By the way, i'm not expecting someone who truely believes to suddenly just think, oh yeah, Rob's right. Let's forget the whole thing. That would mean more or less giving up an entire lifestyle, and not many like change.



Posted by: DaMayor

Originally posted by Pepper
I am holding my fire since you are a fellow "hick."
I prefer to think of myself as a redneck visionary.



Posted by: DaMayor

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
By the way, i'm not expecting someone who truely believes to suddenly just think, oh yeah, Rob's right. Let's forget the whole thing. That would mean more or less giving up an entire lifestyle, and not many like change.

Really, I mean, who are you to play God?


In reference to your previous comment, "fear.", are you sure that it is fear that motivates a death row inmate? Or is it admission of fallibility? (which could also be interpreted as 'fall ability'.)



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by DaMayor
In reference to your previous comment, "fear.", are you sure that it is fear that motivates a death row inmate? Or is it admission of fallibility? (which could also be interpreted as 'fall ability'.)
Hmmm...i suppose desperation is also a factor.

They fear the wrath of the (if any) afterlife.

They look anyway for salvation, even somewhere they've never looked before.



Posted by: DaMayor

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Hmmm...i suppose desperation is also a factor.

They fear the wrath of the (if any) afterlife.

They look anyway for salvation, even somewhere they've never looked before.
Do they really fear the 'wrath' or punishment in the afterlife....or do they mourn the life they are about to lose?

Secondly, could it be that they are giving in to the 'good' within themselves before death? Y'know, it could be said that it's much easier to live a 'normal', no holes barred sort of life than it is to lead a religiously guided life.



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by DaMayor
Do they really fear the 'wrath' or punishment in the afterlife....or do they mourn the life they are about to lose?
Yeah, probably a bit of both, but you can also pretty much guarantee that anyone who releases that their lives are going to meet a premature end will mourn the life they're about to lose, whether it be from execution or accident (falling out a plane for example).

Not every death row prisoner finds God before execution remember. Some are cold and heartless.



Posted by: ZECH

To hit on BD's and BO's post a few back............
I think most people have the attitude that they can take care of themselves and do not have time for a God or go to church. This works until actions are no longer up to them or they cannot control what happens. That is when they begin to ask "Why them" It is also then some turn to God in some form. I think weather everyone admits it or not, they want to think that they will be taken care of when they die. And I have seen several atheist turn to God before dying. Now if they believed all their life that there was not a God, what made them turn at the last minute?? Could it be the presence of God persuading them??



Posted by: ZECH

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

Not every death row prisoner finds God before execution remember. Some are cold and heartless.
The Bible says that a person can turn from God one too many times. God only promises one chance. But Thankfully he gives most many!! But if you turn on him too many times he can leave and you will never feel the presence of God again. That is when your heart turns cold. I have heard a guy testify before that he wanted to get saved but he had turned from God too many times before, and he could not get saved. Now that must be a sad and scary feeling. With today's world the way it is, I would hate to know I was not under God's wings and his angels care!



Posted by: Robboe

Are you saying that you "sense" (my word, not yours) protection from God?



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

I love how yall are taking into account the differing cultures and religious attitudes of the world, instead of just contemporary America, when making these sweeping generalizations of human nature and beliefs.

Christianity isn't the only religion in the world by a long shot, so its useless to point out how prisoners "turn to God" on death row when they've been raised in a Christian society. Do you think the same applies to people in Asia or India? I highly doubt they run to the Bible.

This is far too broad and overarching a debate for such simplistic viewpoints.

Regarding evolution. Anyone that thinks there's no evidence for it, or that can't grasp the concept of macro-evolution, either doesn't understand biology and its related processes as well as the sheer amount of time involved, or is simply refusing to see the facts lain before them. Probably some combination of the two.

The Bible portrays God as a selfish, sadistic liar.....no being that is truly the source of love and compassion could act as that. Free will? Free will and suffering are intertwined. God wants us to choose him? That mere fact by necessity creates suffering. There's no way to argue around that fact. God wants us to choose, then that means He created suffering and is allowing it to happen.

That's not the embodiment of love. And frankly, I want no part of a being capable of that cruelty.

Fortunately I don't believe that's the case. There's a lot of historical backing for the concept of a gnostic Christianity, the belief that God is the internal consciousness. Our spirits and the concept of God are indistinct. This ideology requires no man in the sky, no system of punishments and rewards, no explanation for evil or good. All it requires is acceptance of one's self and that relationship with the supreme reality of the universe.

There's no creator force required. Everyone seems to assume the universe required some force of external creation. That's yet another example of limited and simplistic thinking. The theistic concept of God is no explanation; it simply pushes the concept of "first" from the physical universe. If an eternal God is easy to digest, why is it so far-fetched that the universe is spontaneous? In any event, there is something that came from nothing. So the creator idea isn't a valid argument.



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by dg806
... And I have seen several atheist turn to God before dying. Now if they believed all their life that there was not a God, what made them turn at the last minute?? Could it be the presence of God persuading them??

This could be possible. But, regardless of who or what causes this such a soul is forced to finally look at the sobering reality that THEIR BODIES ARE MORTAL and soon to perish. No amount of intellect and no amount of superior rational thinking they ever had or professed to have is going to be able to change the fact that they have absolutely no power over death. I speculate that they then “hedge their bets” and ostensibly convert. I suspect that they figure if there is nothing beyond death then there nothing to be lost or gained whereas no matter how long the “odds” – a shot at immortality is infinitely superior to having someone remember them as a “die-hard atheist” for one or two generations at best (a rather short lived immortality). What remains known only to God is if such souls truly “repent and convert” with a contrite heart and are granted access to his Salvation or not. There are various Christian scriptures that suggest that “…not everyone that calls me Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven”. These at times seem to be contradicted by others that say “…everyone that calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Context is important here; especially given the recurring theme that “…God will not be mocked” and “…God is a God of Justice & Mercy”. My personal believe is that God shows mercy to all who ask up to the final moment – no matter how many times they have sinned. I also believe that there is intercession by the saints and perished loved ones even at the instant of death when the person can not make the decision due to physical condition. According to most Christian religious dogma (and my belief) Jesus has the final authority to make the supreme and final binding intercession for all that he chooses to call his no matter how severe and “legal” the charges presented by Lucifer. No human can fathom God’s mercy. But mercy could conceivably be anything such as consuming their souls as if they never existed to prevent eternal punishment or being assigned to a lesser “estate” in heaven or a “cooler” part of hell (purgatory) – this is where different religious dogma and traditions differ. Frankly these minor details (dogma be right or in error) are not that important to me – since I Trust in the Lord.



Posted by: ZECH

I also believe that there is intercession by the saints and perished loved ones even at the instant of death when the person can not make the decision due to physical condition.



OD, there is a verse in the bible that says "there is one intercessor between man and God - that man is Jesus Christ".
As catholics believe in praying to Mary, different religions have different beliefs. I believe if this was the case, we would all live like hell and then at the last minute accept God. And you still have to account for your sins after you get saved!



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by dg806
... I believe if this was the case, we would all live like hell and then at the last minute accept God. And you still have to account for your sins after you get saved!
Nah, how many people routinely go out of their way to take advantage of their friends, brothers, parents etc. then ask for forgiveness and then do it all over again and again? Excepting for mentally ill or substance abuse kinds of cases fortunately there are really not too many people like this - at least not mature adults. I think most people believe that Sin and offensive behavior has a price. Such a person at some point just won't care who they offend anymore and not bother to ask for forgiveness - they choose to become step by step (for lack of a better word) completely "evil"(well "almost" completely). Most Christian religions believe while there is Life the spark of God still exists in such a person). Asking for forgiveness to an evil person is seen as weak and empowering an individual that they hate or have no respect for. In less severe cases we commonly just call this a selfish person. That's why Christians teach that we still must forgive our enemies even if they don't ask it.

By the way, there is a common misperception that Catholics pray to Mary as if she were the intercessor to God. This is not doctrinally accurate. They believe that Jesus is the sole intercessor in accordance with the levite tradition (extending through the sons of Aaron as the only truly legitimately ordained high priests), of the High Priest acting in accordance to the order of Melchizedek (a very interesting tradition and tie in to the old testament). Catholics do not "worship" Mary so much as they venerate her as they do the other Saints (and there is a difference). The idea is to ask her to use her special relationship with Jesus and God to join her own "pure and acceptable" prayers with theirs (kind of like prayers on steroids ). She just happens to be very popular (especially with the women), followed by St. Joseph, St. Peter, St. Jude and name sake Saints and all the thousands of others. In fact Catholics commonly will ask for "all the heavenly hosts to join in prayer" for dire emergencies and special catastrophic kinds of issues (like world peace and aversion of natural disasters, war etc.); this includes all the Saints, the angelic beings (Cherubim, Archangels etc.) it is seen as communion and fellowship between heaven and earth not seperate deity worship.



Posted by: buff_tat2d_chic

Originally posted by shortstuff
Ok my two cents- I don't belive in god as a the christian or chatholic or whaever believes in god. I do follow a set of morals that would go along with a christian or western religious belief. But I do have my own variations. My biggest thing with the whole religios as it seems everyone else here does, is that the churches make too much of a deal about exactly what faith you are and that all others are not the correct one and they will go to hell. I think that is a bunch of crap.

I don't belive in heaven or hell in the biblical sense but that when you die your spirit does move on to a better place.

This is not a opinion of someone who has never know a religion or been raised in one, but I was raised and baptised episcapol and then went a lutheran church for some time, never got into it, at tha stage of life in your preteens and teens when you listened to no one. I have seen the southern baptists, the four square or non denominational churches, the catholic, and some of my best friends are mormon and jewish. So I have had my eyes open to very different views on this subject.

But I do belive that things happen for a reason and that reason is beyond our control and who or what makes this so, we can never know.
Wow!! Well said. I couldn't have said it better. I didn't think there was anyone who thought like I did.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes


Regarding evolution. Anyone that thinks there's no evidence for it, or that can't grasp the concept of macro-evolution, either doesn't understand biology and its related processes as well as the sheer amount of time involved, or is simply refusing to see the facts lain before them. Probably some combination of the two.

I have heard this charge for years and have yet to see one fossil record or any other evidence to support evolution. I think it is the evolutionist desire to have a "god-less" creation has lead them to the religion of evolution. What facts? Name one thing we KNOW about evolution?



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by OceanDude The idea is to ask her to use her special relationship with Jesus and God to join her own "pure and acceptable" prayers with theirs (kind of like prayers on steroids ).
Is there a Biblical basis for this? That is not a sarcastist question by the way, I am seriously asking. My thought is that there is not, but I am open for correction.



Posted by: Nigeepoo

My tuppenceworth.

I think intelligent life is inevitable if you wait long enough and have enough "happy accidents". I think 15,000,000,000 years is a suitably long period of time. There have been multiple extinctions on this planet over the last 4,500,000,000 years. If things had turned out just slightly differently, we wouldn't be here today discussing whether we were created or not. Just like on billions of other planets out there.

I think (nobody can provide proof or solid evidence, either way) that there is almost certainly no supreme being. On my death-bed, I may change my mind - just in case. If it turns out that there is a God, I hope He has a sense of humour!



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by tidalwaverus
TCD just for the sake of agruement if Jesus deciples stole his body then he was not God it's all a lie.

Their is no resurection or God and we are Fools

Eat and drink for tomorrow you die!
Huh?



Posted by: ZECH

Originally posted by Nigeepoo

I think (nobody can provide proof or solid evidence, either way) that there is almost certainly no supreme being. On my death-bed, I may change my mind - just in case. If it turns out that there is a God, I hope He has a sense of humour!
We are not out to prove without a doubt God is real. God would not let you understand how he made the universe. And if you wait, like us Baptists say, you will bust Hell wide open!



Posted by: ZECH

Oh and for those of you that don't believe that there is a heaven or hell...............
That is like trying to make a decision. If you can't decide, you still have made a choice!



Posted by: Prince

Heaven and Hell! LMFAO!

that is one of the biggest crocks of shit that Christians perpetuate. (no offense)



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by dg806
We are not out to prove without a doubt God is real. God would not let you understand how he made the universe.
And you know this how?



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by Prince
Heaven and Hell! LMFAO!

that is one of the biggest crocks of shit that Christians perpetuate. (no offense)
Why would we be offended by you mocking the Bible that we believe dearly?



Posted by: DaMayor

Y'know, to say that one knows anything with absolute certainty is the epitome of arrogance. Whether it be the issue of God's existence, Evolution, our lone existence in this universe, or the best recipe for pancakes.



Posted by: Prince

Originally posted by Pepper
Why would we be offended by you mocking the Bible that we believe dearly?
you shouldn't be, it's my opinion and I am entitled to it.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by Prince
you shouldn't be, it's my opinion and I am entitled to it.
You are always entitled to your opinion. That is even more true here of all places.

So, no one should ever be offended by someone else's opinion?

Sorry, calling the Bible "crock" is going to offend Christians.



Posted by: Prince

okay, well I get offended when a Christian tells me I am going to hell because I do not believe in Jesus Christ.

so who is right?



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
I love how yall are taking into account the differing cultures and religious attitudes of the world, instead of just contemporary America, when making these sweeping generalizations of human nature and beliefs.

Christianity isn't the only religion in the world by a long shot, so its useless to point out how prisoners "turn to God" on death row when they've been raised in a Christian society. Do you think the same applies to people in Asia or India? I highly doubt they run to the Bible.
Well then tell those that follow those faiths to speak up. Christians are going to address Christian beliefs. That's where people look stupid is when they address beliefs they have only read about or heard about from some knowitall freshmen prof.



Posted by: BUSTINOUT

Originally posted by Prince
okay, well I get offended when a Christian tells me I am going to hell because I do not believe in Jesus Christ.

so who is right?
It's not always about being right...as much as that may hurt.

I guess the point pepper is trying to make here is maybe a little tact is in order here. Especially as someone that would like to see their own board carry on somewhat civil conversations.

It's kinda like me saying "Your mom is a bitch...no offense".



Posted by: JerrymeMorales

Just like Dave Dramain said in one of his songs to God....

"You've made me turn away"

That's my relationship with God....



Posted by: Prince

Originally posted by BUSTINOUT
It's not always about being right...as much as that may hurt.
If someone's feelings get hurt that easily then they should avoid reading or participating in a thread like this. They may even want to reconsider being on the internet at all.


I guess the point pepper is trying to make here is maybe a little tact is in order here. Especially as someone that would like to see their own board carry on somewhat civil conversations.
I do not think that expressing my opinion about Christianity is uncivil, I did not personally attack anyone. Had I said "Pepper you're a fool for believing in Christianity" well that would be offensive and maybe uncivil.


It's kinda like me saying "Your mom is a bitch...no offense".
Actually that would not offend me at all, you do not know my mother.



Posted by: Prince

Originally posted by tidalwaverus
I don't think anyone here ever said that to you?

Correct me if I'm wrong
I do not believe that anyone here said that, but my mother has said it to me.



Posted by: DaMayor

*jumping the fence again*....I wonder how many others have chosen not to practice 'religion', whether Christianity or otherwise, because they had it shoved down their throat?

There's that pesky human nature thing again!



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

Originally posted by Pepper
I have heard this charge for years and have yet to see one fossil record or any other evidence to support evolution. I think it is the evolutionist desire to have a "god-less" creation has lead them to the religion of evolution. What facts? Name one thing we KNOW about evolution?
Life started out simple and became more complex over time. Its pretty much that cut and dry.

If you can't get that from the fossil record, then as I said you're either not understanding what's going on or are refusing to accept the facts. Mankind is not an aberration in the records we have; instead, our development is a logical progression give the ancestor species.

The creationist stance that evolution isn't proven is really grasping at straws. Its like standing in clearing and saying that you're not in the woods because there's no trees. It's a really weak argument.

I also see that you chose not to address my points about the God of the Bible being a sadist at worst, or at the very least FAR from all-powerful in the best case.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
If you can't get that from the fossil record, then as I said you're either not understanding what's going on or are refusing to accept the facts. Mankind is not an aberration in the records we have; instead, our development is a logical progression give the ancestor species.
Give me a break, Darwin himself said the fossil record did not support him. What is funny to me is that you insist on belittling those who oppose evolution as simpletons, yet you cling to a theory that has NO PROOF. Who has their eyes closed?

I am not refusing to accept the facts. I have read book after book on this subject and even the evolutions will concede the fossil record is NOT supporting their position.

Christians are not the enemy of evolution, paleontology is. Link me to a report of a fossil finding that supports evolution. Show me the facts that I refuse to accept.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes

I also see that you chose not to address my points about the God of the Bible being a sadist at worst, or at the very least FAR from all-powerful in the best case.
That is because this is a matter of faith. I do not want to engage on this type if issue with someone I do not know. I will tell what I believe (that your comments are in total contradiction to the Bible) but what good would it do? Your comments are so off-base and offensive, that there really is no point.

What I will engage on is the theory of evolution. A theory under massive attack lately. I think there are many scientists who would be relieved if you delivered these facts that I refuse to accept.

This is why I call evolution a religion, in invokes the same reactions as a religion. Arguements that contain unsupportable statements of facts and "feelings" but no scientific proof.



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

So there's nothing in the fossil record showing a progression from simplicity towards complexity, then.

If you're limiting your scope to Darwin then you're vastly missing the point and sweep of the theory.

Since you ask for evidence, feel free to look up any of the following:

The dawn of Homo sapiens. Randerson, James. New Scientist, 2003, Vol. 178 Issue 2399

Charting the Evolutionary History of Life. Sugden, Andrew M.; Jasny, Barbara R.; Culotta, Elizabeth; Pennisi, Elizabeth. Science, 2003, Vol. 300 Issue 5626

Palaeontology: Combing the primate record. Martin, Robert D.. Nature, 2003, Vol. 422 Issue 6930

Magnetostratigraphy of Late Cenozoic fossil mammals in the northeastern margin of the Tibetan Plateau. Song Chunhui; Fang Xiaomin; Gao Junping; Nie Junsheng; Yan Maodu; Xu Xinhai; Sun Dong. Chinese Science Bulletin, 2003, Vol. 48 Issue 1

Out of Africa with regional interbreeding? Modern human origins. Satta, Yoko; Takahata, Naoyuki. BioEssays, Oct2002, Vol. 24 Issue 10

Using the fossil record to estimate the age of the last common ancestor of extant primates. Tavaré, Simon; Marshall, Charles R.; Will, Oliver; Soligo, Christophe; Martin, Robert D.. Nature, 4/18/2002, Vol. 416 Issue 6882

Determinants of extinction in the fossil record. Peters, Shanan E.; Foote, Michael. Nature, 3/28/2002, Vol. 416 Issue 6879

The genetical history of humans and the great apes. KAESSMANN, H.; PÄÄBO, S.. Journal of Internal Medicine, Jan2002, Vol. 251 Issue 1

That's just back over the past year and a half. I can go back further if you'd like. Curiously none of them are stating that the fossil record does not support them; in fact, several of those involve finds that make the picture more complete. Additionally, new genomic and proteomic applications are making it more and more possible to trace genetic linkages. Its no mistake that humans and chimpanzees share 98% of our DNA.

Its also not valid reasoning to call a point false when its true depth is unknown. The fossil record might be incomplete for now, but that most assuredly doesn't render it meaningless or unsupportive of evolutionary theory.

However, I doubt any of this will serve as proper evidence. The argument style presented here seems to place high value on emotive showboating and name-calling as opposed to presentation of facts and logical thinking.

I again reiterate my point that you do not have a clear grasp of the topic at hand to be arguing in such a manner. That's not meant as an insult. Its simply meant that quite frankly, you aren't informed on the topic.

To compare evolution to religion is ludicrous. Being a scientific theory, evolution relies upon physical evidence to make its assumptions. Religion does not, regardless of the fervor either generates. At the end of the day, evolutionary theory can be codified and reliably, repeatably tested. Religion cannot.

My comments are off base and offensive? How is asking you to clarify a quite relevant and relatively indisputable point offensive to you? If you get angry from such questions, perhaps you should re-evaluate your devotion to your faith....which is supposedly a system of tolerance, love, and forgiveness. I find it exceptionally funny how the most "devout" of the Christian faith are always the first to begin the name-calling and aggressive behavior.

Now if you'd care to refute any of the points I made above, or any of the literature I quoted a sample of, feel free. I will gladly debate you on any of those points. However I won't play into emotive diatribe the basis of which is biased facts and outright falsehoods you've seen fit to display so far.



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Pepper
... Name one thing we KNOW about evolution?
Here is a one truth - archeologist's have in large numbers evolved into plausable liers.

There are many liars and egomaniacs in their ranks. There are countless episodes of them lying to their own community or committing incredible fraudulent “new” discoveries over the last 100 years.



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Pepper
Is there a Biblical basis for this? That is not a sarcastist question by the way, I am seriously asking. My thought is that there is not, but I am open for correction.
Firstly Pepper, s I am certain you know the Bible should not be viewed as a “recipe book” for every single incident in life. In fact Jesus was very much against the Pharisees and Sadducees for turning Judaism into an impossible tangle of rules and regulations that tripped up and made the kingdom of God impossible for any man to attain unless he was a legal and religious scholar. Recall the complaint Jesus received about doing good works and healing on the Sabbath and how he warned them that they would be better that they were not born in the final judgment for making it so hard on the simple ones. This is why in the new testament he basically tore the old covenant in two in much the same way as the curtain was torn in the temple at the instant of his death (thus completing the imagery of the sacrificial lamb replacing the sacrifical offering of Abraham in the old covenant) and formed a new covenant based on jsut two fundamentl principals: 1) Love of God and 2) Love of fellow man (neighbor). He basically said that we made it all too complicated and it was not pleasing to God in the way that man had let the law evolve (there is the evolution word) and become perverted and unmerciful in the old form.

But, Indeed there are many examples Pepper. The Wedding Of Cana. The bridal party told Mary of the situation where they ere about to run out of wine. Mary then asked her son to assist in helping the bridal party's family to save them from humiliation or embarassment. When he replied "it is not yet my time" she lovingly re-petitioned for his assistance and he finally enjoined her request. There are other example s too that specifically invite God’s people to join in prayer together and to promote a "community" of prayer rather than just always use solely a personal prayer or petition: Such as when Jesus asked his disciples to pray with him in the garden at Gethsemane and when Jesus declared “when two or more of you gather in my name rest assured it shall be granted onto you. So you see we have both a personal as well as a community relationship to God. In fact we are all united as family in this regard. Just because the Bible does not specifically state that Pepper and OceanDude can pray together does not mean that OceanDude can not ask for one of my Family to join with him in prayer. Fundamentally this would not be consistent with the great command “to love one another”.



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Prince
you shouldn't be, it's my opinion and I am entitled to it.
As Lucifer, Cain, Judas, Hitler & Sadam were entitled to theirs .



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
I also see that you chose not to address my points about the God of the Bible being a sadist at worst, or at the very least FAR from all-powerful in the best case.
Why are you surprised? Where you attempting to provoke a heated response? Some may be praying for you rather than trying to return the hatred.

By the way, it's interesting that you would embrace a Gnostic position here. Do you expect people to “buy” this (your words). Somehow I do not think a person who spews so much hate for other’s beliefs is going to make any points here. You present for consideration a religion that asserts that God (or “one” of the gods) became “jealous” of man’s creation and that man’s partaking of the forbidden fruit made him equal to God and this is the reason for all the evil – God’s jealousy of man. Basically you have espoused a religion from the perspective of the snake in the Garden of Eden. Gnosticism, also focus on how it’s all a big lie and conspiracy committed by men which in my opinion is all designed to cause a conflict between the sexes (an attack on Love) and focusing on power in religion rather than on spiritual dimensions. Gnostics believe that the part about Eve persuading Adam to eat the fruit is a lie propagated by jealous men (jealousy is a recurring theme in gnostic doctrine). They assert that “Adam” was inferior to Eve and was destined to be the superior of the two. Ultimately Gnostics focus on Eve evolving to the supreme power and men were to be lesser in stature. No Snake_Eyes, with your bombastic entrance I don’t think you have much credibility here with most. But hey, what ever blows "your" skirt up. Bottom line – no matter what anyone believes or does not believe it will not change what really is; whether you "buy" it or not.



Posted by: Robboe

Pepper, the whole idea of evolution is that it's happend over millions of years. You're not going to find one fossil that directly proves it. Basing your decision whether to believe it on something like that is just dumb.





Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by tidalwaverus
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."


TCD we were not there but alot of people were, they all lied?
You don't know for sure that any of this actually happend. You've just read an age-old book that describes it. People have the ability to write fiction, you know.

Harry Potter is a book, does that make him real?



Posted by: Nigeepoo

Why does everything have to be "truth" or "lies"? If someone says something that you believe to be incorrect, do you call them a liar, or do you state that you believe them to be incorrect?

I believe that some of the facts stated in the bible are correct.

1) Are you saying that everything in the bible is correct?
2) How many times has the bible been translated and re-translated?
3) Is it possible that there may be mis-interpretation of words in the bible?
4) Is it possible that the people who created revision 1.0 of the bible got some facts wrong?



Posted by: Prince

Originally posted by OceanDude
As Lucifer, Cain, Judas, Hitler & Sadam were entitled to theirs .
so, you're putting me in the same category as "evil people" because I think that Christianity is a joke?



Posted by: Pepper

Snake Eyes,

What the heck are you talking about? Where have I called anyone names? It is like we are in two different discussions.

All I have said is that evolution is far from proven and is a matter of faith for its "believers."

If you want to debate the evidence for evolution, I'll be glad too. You have been far, far more insulting than ANYONE in this thread and I am really not wanting to continue.

Ignorant, uninformed, emotional, simpleton
Pepper



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
Its also not valid reasoning to call a point false when its true depth is unknown. The fossil record might be incomplete for now, but that most assuredly doesn't render it meaningless or unsupportive of evolutionary theory.
This is a good point. One that Darwin made in his own defense to the lack of a fossil record. I am obviously too dense to understand the articles you provided, but I will do my best.

What's interesting about your posts is that they are clearly crafted to irritate and, in a way, insult in order to elicit an emotional response. I am somewhat embarrassed that I fell into that trap last night. However, I did not get angry, I simple stated that it was not worthwhile to engage on that topic.

I LOVE debate. Always have. But I will not debate someone who so intent on being insulting.



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

Originally posted by OceanDude
Why are you surprised? Where you attempting to provoke a heated response? Some may be praying for you rather than trying to return the hatred.

Perhaps you misunderstand. There's no hatred in my tone. Simple inquisitiveness. And what I'm encountering in return is more emotional showboating without the point being addressed.

Which is leading me to believe you don't have an answer.

By the way, it's interesting that you would embrace a Gnostic position here. Do you expect people to “buy” this (your words). Somehow I do not think a person who spews so much hate for other’s beliefs is going to make any points here. You present for consideration a religion that asserts that God (or “one” of the gods) became “jealous” of man’s creation and that man’s partaking of the forbidden fruit made him equal to God and this is the reason for all the evil – God’s jealousy of man. Basically you have espoused a religion from the perspective of the snake in the Garden of Eden. Gnosticism, also focus on how it’s all a big lie and conspiracy committed by men which in my opinion is all designed to cause a conflict between the sexes (an attack on Love) and focusing on power in religion rather than on spiritual dimensions. Gnostics believe that the part about Eve persuading Adam to eat the fruit is a lie propagated by jealous men (jealousy is a recurring theme in gnostic doctrine). They assert that “Adam” was inferior to Eve and was destined to be the superior of the two. Ultimately Gnostics focus on Eve evolving to the supreme power and men were to be lesser in stature. No Snake_Eyes, with your bombastic entrance I don’t think you have much credibility here with most. But hey, what ever blows "your" skirt up. Bottom line – no matter what anyone believes or does not believe it will not change what really is; whether you "buy" it or not.

You're rapidly showing the limits of your thought processes. Confining one's self to any limited viewpoint is a pre-requisite for ignorance.

That's only half of the gnostic viewpoint, and in typical narrow-minded pseudo-Christian fashion, you're throwing out the baby with the bath water. The essence of gnostic thought is that there IS no external God, and yes, the God of the Bible is a liar and a sadist, which follows *exactly* with the behavior that being laid out.

Also if you follow the story more you'll realize that Christ himself was a gnostic; he espoused no old man in the sky. Only the link between the soul of man and the soul of the universe, the internal spark of consciousness that was God. This is dated from gospels that predate those included in the Bible. But as per the ignorance of those unable to comprehend anything but a vengeful God in the sky, that knowledge was suppressed.

And even then, you're still trying to pin me as being "bad" for espousing "a religion from the perspective of the snake in the Garden of Eden." To you, I'm sure that carries quite the negative connotation. To me, it means I don't agree with something written in a book. There's no connotation of good and evil other than the actions performed by the players. So if it means I agree with the snake/Lucifer, then so be it. Right is right, regardless of brainwashing.

Frankly the idea is a lot more reasonable and acceptable to me than a judgmental asshole that wants to sit in the sky and tell me how bad I am when he created billions of people to suffer for eternity. You want to start comparing people to Hitler and Saddam? How's that for a mass murderer?

But my point is not to attack. My point is to clarify. I don't have to get defensive about the topic because frankly I'm sure in my position. I don't have "faith;" I've experienced my connection personally. It seems by the very fact of arguing and becoming upset, you're showing your own insecurity. If you believe as strongly as you say, it shouldn't be an issue to address this calmly and with rational answers. Yet none have been forthcoming.

I've learned to accept such behavior from the followers of theistic religions. There's no rational basis for that belief, other than the rampant socialization involved....in other words, do what you're told and don't think outside of that context. There's most certainly more to the universe than what we see in this world....but things are not so poorly designed that a sadistic madman is at the wheel. So essentially, there are no rational reasons, no coherent explanations for the behavior of the God you follow....and you're showing the fallacy of your belief by getting angry at someone asking questions.

Its not because I'm spreading hate...its because you're not used to anything outside the context of your belief system. Especially one that challenges that belief system, and does so in a way you can't counter. So you react with anger. And the flaws of the ideology become clear as day.



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

www.gnosis.org

And that wasn't name-calling towards anyone here. It was a reference to those original members of the forming Church that couldn't grasp the concepts being espoused, and thus chose to suppress the knowledge.



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Prince
so, you're putting me in the same category as "evil people" because I think that Christianity is a joke?
Oh no Prince. I would never make a judgment such as that about a person I know nothing about. I was simply agreeing with you that there are many excellent cases in history that reinforce the generally held belief that a person is entitled to his opinion. But I also implied with the example that opinions often have consequences that affect more than just the “individual”. There was also a secondary implication that we should be careful then how we form our opinions and express them. By the way, some people admire those people I listed but I see you judged them to be "evil" yourself. I tend to agree with your opinion on this.



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes



...You're rapidly showing the limits of your thought processes. Confining one's self to any limited viewpoint is a pre-requisite for ignorance.

...in typical narrow-minded pseudo-Christian fashion, you're throwing out the baby with the bath water.

... and yes, the God of the Bible is a liar and a sadist

... But as per the ignorance of those unable to comprehend anything but a vengeful God in the sky, that knowledge was suppressed.

...And even then, you're still trying to pin me as being "bad" for espousing "a religion from the perspective of the snake in the Garden of Eden."

...So if it means I agree with the snake/Lucifer, then so be it. Right is right, regardless of brainwashing.

...Frankly the idea is a lot more reasonable and acceptable to me than a judgmental asshole that wants to sit in the sky and tell me how bad I am when he created billions of people to suffer for eternity.


...I've learned to accept such behavior from the followers of theistic religions. There's no rational basis for that belief, other than the rampant socialization involved....in other words, do what you're told and don't think outside of that context.

....but things are not so poorly designed that a sadistic madman is at the wheel.

....and you're showing the fallacy of your belief by getting angry at someone asking questions.
Snake_Eyes, every sophomoric, petty and trite argument that you have made is rather amateurishly but consistently crafted to the purpose of provoking an emotional response. You come across as almost jealous or hateful of the concept of a Christian God or have some kind of paranoia about religious “conspiracies” in general. But I suspect it’s more simply the case that you probably just hunger for attention and greatly desire to force a dialog and rebuttal in much the same way a child misbehaves with its parents to get their attention. You would do better in this regard to work on your style some. There is really no point in further dialog with you since: 1) I have no interest in “selling” you anything, and 2) You are not “buying” anything (is being an intellectual pauper with no apparent ability to buy or sell synonymous with “narrow mindedness”?) and 3) You have not yet demonstrated any evidence of intellectual or spiritual insight on the subject and 4) You seem hell bent on arguing for the sake of arguing and 5) You already have all your own answers and 6) I have no time to waste nor any interest in administering spankings. Your discourses are shot full of two-dimensional and shallow deception, deceit and insincerity. More sophistication is needed. Frankly you bore me. If you can change your style and say something intelligent or demonstrate some other form of enlightenment I may choose to enjoin further adult dialog with you in the future. In the interim, trust me, I am not at all “upset” or “angry” or “provoked” – just slightly annoyed by your lack of style and really just plain bored silly on my end. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you will get much higher quality responses and meaningful dialog from people if you try less to provoke and more to encourage two-way adult dialog.



Posted by: Pepper

Well said, OceanDude



Posted by: kuso

I hope that reply didn`t take you 84 minutes to write lol



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

So be it then. If you're willing to engage in the very behaviors you're accusing me of, then there's no room to discuss this matter any further.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Nigeepoo
Why does everything have to be "truth" or "lies"? If someone says something that you believe to be incorrect, do you call them a liar, or do you state that you believe them to be incorrect?
Isn't being incorrect the same as not being true? And not being true is also false? aka a lie.

1) Are you saying that everything in the bible is correct?
Yes everything is true.
2) How many times has the bible been translated and re-translated?
A few. http://www.carm.org/evidence/rewritten.htm
3) Is it possible that there may be mis-interpretation of words in the bible?
http://www.carm.org/evidence/rewritten.htm
4) Is it possible that the people who created revision 1.0 of the bible got some facts wrong?
Possibly a couple of words but not facts.

Ok since I have jumped in here, I am a Christian also. I go to a Pentecostal church. I have stayed out of this thread to avoid getting into a lengthy typing match with some, but this seems like it has been a civilized thread.

So far there have been some really good points made. I would like to add one.

Being a Christian means being Christ like. Which in turn means following the rules set forth by God in the bible. It means at a minimum following the ten commandments to it's fullest, and then some, Such as living by the bible and following it's plan for having an eternal life in heaven.

In order for any of this to be believable you must first, believe the bible as a whole and not take a verse here or chapters there and then use that as a basis for your "religion".



Posted by: Prince

Originally posted by Tboy
Yes everything is true.
Really? How do you know?



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Nigeepoo
quote:
Why does everything have to be "truth" or "lies"? If someone says something that you believe to be incorrect, do you call them a liar, or do you state that you believe them to be incorrect?

Originally posted by Tboy
Isn't being incorrect the same as not being true? And not being true is also false? aka a lie.
I must agree with Nigeepoo on his rhetorical question. Pragmatically, few if any things within human perception can be known and experienced perfectly as truth. For humans most things are simply approximate models of truth to greater or lesser degree that serve our fundamental needs. Some other things are just blatantly incorrect misunderstandings propagated maliciously (a true lie) or through carelessness as truth when they're really conjecture. In the scientific community there is even a precise mathematical expression for this in many equations called ”epsilon” – or statistical “uncertainty” or “error”. In theology it’s the age old concept of “imperfection of man” raising its ugly head. To tie it into this discussion the notion of “epsilon” or “uncertainty” is metaphorically similar to the Athenians "statue of the unknown god" that the apostle Paul spoke so eloquently of. The Greeks, being fairly intellectually advanced essentially pre-admitted to human fallibility but had the cleverness to “cover their bases” religiously (for fear of slighting any god they were unaware of). Back to “uncertainty”. Many scientists will assert that this is a built in “reality” to all Science since humans can never fully observe something without actually effecting or changing it’s state or outcome. This stems from Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal . This principal basically dooms all human attempts at perfect “god like” understanding of the physical universe to utter folly. This small but extremely important principal has in fact given rise to all manner of theological and spiritual linkage in Science. In a manner of speaking it scientifically proves that there is fundamentally built into all of existence an unsolvable Mystery that strongly suggests (if not proves) to me anyway – a higher authority or being. We see this when dealing with things at the sub-atomic level where anti-matter and matter can simultaneously create itself to “balance the equations of man” and then just as suddenly self annihilate as we try to observe it. Now this phenomenon even emerges at the large scale cosmological/planetary level of observation. There are in fact those that argue that nothing is physically present unless there is an observer to precipitate an “event” which spontaneously brings into existence a physical thing or effect through this principal. In a manner of speaking, through uncertainty Science has “found” a basis for religion with profound implications that exist in every single particle of matter and being in the Universe.

So unfortunately I must concede his argument here - knowing full well in advance what this leads to in a religious discussion. This is the fallacy of logic and debate and why I personally do not put all my “faith” in these methodologies. We simply can not expect to gain perfect knowledge or truth from discussing anything from an imperfect set of beliefs or observations. However, I think it’s perfectly accurate to deduce that “inaccuracy” becomes a lie when it is purposely perpetuated as truth when it is known a-priori to be blatantly false or unsubstantiated conjecture. In the end I believe we all are faced with accepting any point as a matter of faith; even all scientific argument.

In fact, I posit that nothing perceived from the human dimension is absolute truth (assuming for the moment that such a thing exists) since our human perceptions are so extremely limited and subject to built in biases and imperfect abstract models. Even in mathematical & scientific areas of study in which there is a great expectation for pure objective truth we always fall well short of absolute truth. We can never perfectly “model” our theories and discoveries in ways that are consistently true in a unifying way against competing theories and discovered facts in adjacent areas of existance.



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by OceanDude
Snake_Eyes, every sophomoric, petty and trite argument that you have made is rather amateurishly but consistently crafted to the purpose of provoking an emotional response. You come across as almost jealous or hateful of the concept of a Christian God or have some kind of paranoia about religious “conspiracies” in general. But I suspect it’s more simply the case that you probably just hunger for attention and greatly desire to force a dialog and rebuttal in much the same way a child misbehaves with its parents to get their attention. You would do better in this regard to work on your style some. There is really no point in further dialog with you since: 1) I have no interest in “selling” you anything, and 2) You are not “buying” anything (is being an intellectual pauper with no apparent ability to buy or sell synonymous with “narrow mindedness”?) and 3) You have not yet demonstrated any evidence of intellectual or spiritual insight on the subject and 4) You seem hell bent on arguing for the sake of arguing and 5) You already have all your own answers and 6) I have no time to waste nor any interest in administering spankings. Your discourses are shot full of two-dimensional and shallow deception, deceit and insincerity. More sophistication is needed. Frankly you bore me. If you can change your style and say something intelligent or demonstrate some other form of enlightenment I may choose to enjoin further adult dialog with you in the future. In the interim, trust me, I am not at all “upset” or “angry” or “provoked” – just slightly annoyed by your lack of style and really just plain bored silly on my end. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you will get much higher quality responses and meaningful dialog from people if you try less to provoke and more to encourage two-way adult dialog.
Well, you sure told him...

Also, i find it ironic that he bores you, when pretty much every post of yours i've read has been over-stretched, drawn-out, dull near-novel length paragraphs.



Posted by: Prince

LOL

now you're sticking up for ole Snake Boy, huh?



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Prince
Really? How do you know?
Because I believe.

How do you know otherwise?



You say that you don't follow a "religion".... ( I have asked you this before) Have you ever just got down on your knee's and prayed to be shown some insight to all this? And I mean more than a two line prayer. Do it when no one else is around if you foolish about doing it.

This would also apply to anyone else with unanswered questions.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Well, you sure told him...

Also, i find it ironic that he bores you, when pretty much every post of yours i've read has been over-stretched, drawn-out, dull near-novel length paragraphs.
I have caught flak in the past for doing this, but I agree with TCD.

The point of the post seems to loose itself after about five or ten lines of reading.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Prince
Really? How do you know?

It has also been proven to be true on many ocassions, some of it in the past few years.



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Also, i find it ironic that he bores you, when pretty much every post of yours i've read has been over-stretched, drawn-out, dull near-novel length paragraphs.
TCD, in prior posts I have admitted to occasional long windedness; such is needed when there is a lack of familiarity with another’s context and level of common understanding. Here I can only say that some are more efficient at boredom than others. But given your recent 722 word diatribe and admonishment to DeMayor and your present admission that you have suffered my laborious words to great length, it would seem that irony likes to dance in pairs while flirting with hypocrisy. Although you could really do me no greater compliment than suffer me thusly I find it somewhat sadistic that you would only whine as a proxy for another at the end of the dance. Alas, it is perhaps in great suffering that humor finds it’s greatest perfection – and you sir are a precious work in that regard.



Posted by: Prince

Originally posted by Tboy
Because I believe.

How do you know otherwise?
Okay, you have faith and choose to believe, BUT that is quite different than knowing that it's true or factual.

I do not know otherwise, nor would I be so riteous to say that I did, which is exactly what Christians do.

Maybe there is a god, maybe there is not, I cannot prove there is not, and you certainly cannot prove that there is.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Prince
Maybe there is a god, maybe there is not, I cannot prove there is not, and you certainly cannot prove that there is.
On the contrary, I have seen the result of prayer. I have seen people that have been healed because of prayer, aka miracles. True miracles, the ones that doctors on.



Posted by: Prince

yeah, me too on those tv shows, it's hilarious.

even if I agreed that those "miracles" were true (which we all know it's a load of crap), but for the sake of this argument...that still does would prove anything.

BUT, even if that did prove that maybe there is a higher power, it still would not prove that the bible is true.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Prince
yeah, me too on those tv shows, it's hilarious.

It's truly a shame what "TV evangelists" does the reputation of "real" Christians.

even if I agreed that those "miracles" were true (which we all know it's a load of crap), but for the sake of this argument...that still does would prove anything.
Are you telling me what I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears is not true? I'm not talking about the hocus pocus stuff you see on tv where the "preacher" goes to pray for someone then pushes them down as they pretend to faint.

BUT, even if that did prove that maybe there is a higher power, it still would not prove that the bible is true.
How so? If I can prove that God exists through miracles and actual events that were predicted in the Bible are true...

Look, You really don't know me that well nor I you. But You should know me well enough to know that I would not try to feed you a bunch of lies. I'm not like that. I also understand that some people have trouble in just believing. They need something tangible, so it's harder for some. I was born and raised believing in the Bible. So it's easy for me. I did take the time as I got older to find things out for myself.

I'll refer back to a statement I made a couple of posts up, You don't have to believe me. Try it for yourself.


p.s.

We seem to single each other out on these things for some reason



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Tboy
...Are you telling me what I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears is not true? I'm not talking about the hocus pocus stuff you see on tv where the "preacher" goes to pray for someone then pushes them down as they pretend to faint.
Tboy, just a very few simple and brief ideas for you to consider that may make your arguments more effective: From the perspective of a person who “does not believe in the Bible” (whatever that means since there generally is no scholarly debate denying the authenticity of the writings) and does not personally know you – your personal stories have probably less weight to others than do those in the Bible; assuming they have read any part of it (which is usually where most are bluffing from lacking any knowledge therein). In the Bible at least there was a consistent progression through a multitude of literary styles of history, poetry, prophesy and instruction written across many generations and penned by many separate human authors; all from different backgrounds, tribes and geopolitical motivations. There were just too many different people with different agenda in the authorship chain for it to have been any kind of plausible pan-generational religious conspiracy. In fact Christ really messed up the Zelot movement of the Jews when he came along (ref. Judas). What is generally not known to many however is that the Roman’s have a separate written and preserved record by a very important and well known Jewish historian named Josephus Flavious. We find Christ mentioned in his external writings numerous times: "Pilate condemned Him to be crucified and to die" and His disciples "reported that He had appeared to them three days after His crucifixion and that He was alive." I do not have the precise quote handy but he recorded in a separate Roman document sometime after the crucifixion along the lines of “... surely this was the Christus that was foretold of.” As a Jew and under the employment of the Romans as a Historian Josephus was not exactly a benevolent agent for Christians – so we can certainly trust things that he says that support Biblical references. The authenticity of history thus established and separately ratified from a hostile external source then reduces all arguments down to nothing more than a question of deity rather than history. This is where I would focus. Just some ideas...(sory to wax long)



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

The Muslims and the Hindu say the same things.

What makes this any more right?

On a side note, about that obsequious passage demuring to scientific theory.....please, please don't just start throwing out chunks of quantum mechanical theory without understanding the context. That paragraph made me cringe with its mis-use of science.



Posted by: naturaltan

... and 6 pages later it's still going on.



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
…On a side note, about that obsequious passage demuring to scientific theory.....please, please don't just start throwing out chunks of quantum mechanical theory without understanding the context. That paragraph made me cringe with its mis-use of science.
I would suppose that you are referring to my post and reference to Hesenberg’s Uncertainty Principal. I assure you that as a Scientist I can speak with some weight on this principal; even though I do not fully subscribe to the full gambit of quantum mechanic thought (actually, I am currently more aligned to “String Theory”). Given the prior complaint about the tedious nature of some of my posts I was compelled somewhat toward reasonable attempts at common consideration to be as brief as possible. Given the complexity of the topic there was much to consider but little pragmatic accommodation for complete dialog. Unfortunately, it is the nature of these kinds of discussion threads where we have a wildly diverse and heterogeneous level of educational exposure among participants that one must often risk being incomplete for the intellectual comfort of the uninitiated. My idea was to only present a short concept with appropriate linkage for further investigation to those interested parties without going into elaborate detail. This principal could be an entire discussion thread onto itself. So, unless you can speak with equal or greater understanding in this area I would suggest you learn to cope with whatever it is you find unsettling or start a new discussion thread so we can continue and not overly distract the others. But you still need to work on that attacking style…



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

I'll speak as I wish. Save yourself the energy of trying to appear as if you're not "attacking" or are somehow above this debate as well. You've still yet to address any point I've made and have only resorted to whining and deflecting, and yet somehow seem to try and elevate yourself to some holier-than-thou position.

Spare me. And in that spirit,

"Better than a thousand pointless words is one saying to the point" - Buddha

If you feel so inclined to write your convoluted diatribes, look into the concepts of cohesion and brevity. In other words, make a point and don't just waste space. It'd be much more impressive.

At any rate.

If you wish to expound on Heisenberg's principle, the processes of entanglement and non-locality, Schrodinger's wave function, chromodynamics, or any other sub-discipline of quantum theory, I'm more than capable of discussing it on any level you choose. The same goes for string theory in any of its incarnations as well as M-theory.

Back to the original point. The uncertainty principle does not apply to macroscopic phenomena. Nor does the wave function. Quantum mechanics, as should be obviously implied by its name, relates only to sub-atomic phenomena.

"Observer-dependent" is a misnomer. The wave function exists in the absence of interaction with other wave-particle systems. This cannot apply to the macro level as there is never a point in which an object is not interacting with another.

Using such theory as a basis for religious thought is bad, bad science, and in any event only makes the God of the Bible appear less and less likely.

If you know as much as you claim about string theory, and a comparative knowledge of human psychology and biology, you'd likely understand that a God that has similar motives and drives to a human, even assuming that a creator exists, is highly, highly unlikely.

To say otherwise is to imply that the human mind is somehow patterned after a 10 (or more) dimensional structure of hopeless complexity. Again making for bad science.

I'm sure I'll be greeted by another paragraph devoid of content and full of big words that will somehow serve to side-step the valid points I made and make me look like a vicious attacker. But that's the nature of these debates. If you can't have your beliefs challenged, don't try to claim them as infallible on a public forum.



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

They're just as sure as you are though, and can quote just as many passages from their holy books as you can.

So I ask again, what makes you more right?



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
They're just as sure as you are though, and can quote just as many passages from their holy books as you can.

So I ask again, what makes you more right?
If you are trying to make the comparison of muslims to Christians.... There is none.

mohamad was an illiterate, spastic, pedophile (yes there is proof of it) that worshiped the moon god allah. A muslim believes it is perfectly fine to kill a non believer of there faith.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
They're just as sure as you are though, and can quote just as many passages from their holy books as you can.

So I ask again, what makes you more right?
Also even the quran quotes the bible and admits that Jesus walked the earth and rose from the grave.



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by Tboy
mohamad was an illiterate, spastic, pedophile (yes there is proof of it) that worshiped the moon god allah. A muslim believes it is perfectly fine to kill a non believer of there faith.
Funniest post of the thread, this is.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Funniest post of the thread, this is.

Glad I could humor you. But its true none the less.



Posted by: Robboe

As true and funny as it was, it doesn't cease your earlier post:

Originally posted by Tboy
Because I believe.
...From being retardedly spanktastical.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
As true and funny as it was, it doesn't cease your earlier post:



...From being retardedly spanktastical.

As long as you got the point of the post, is all that matters.





Posted by: Snake_Eyes

Originally posted by Tboy
If you are trying to make the comparison of muslims to Christians.... There is none.

mohamad was an illiterate, spastic, pedophile (yes there is proof of it) that worshiped the moon god allah. A muslim believes it is perfectly fine to kill a non believer of there faith.
Allah is the same God that Christians follow.

Now, what are you feelings about the Hindu religion? Or how about Buddhism for that matter?



Posted by: Robboe

Originally posted by Tboy
As long as you got the point of the post, is all that matters.

Yeah, but it's not making you look particularly intelligent.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
Allah is the same God that Christians follow.
Not by a long shot.



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

So let me get this straight.

The Muslims are an off-shoot of Christianity, to the point of realizing Judaism and Christianity as valid religions. They even make mention of Christ as a prophet of God, though they don't consider him to be divine.

Its a generally accepted fact culturally and academically that Allah is the same being as the Judeo-Christian God.

So you dispute this because.....?



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Yeah, but it's not making you look particularly intelligent.
What part of that post said that I cared what you thought of my intellegence? I gave up on what people thought about me a long time ago. What you think about me is not nearly as important as what I think about me. Remember that and you'll live a happier life.


You are an interesting fellow (to put it nicely). You try to talk with some intelligence, but yet you still continually try to put people down with nearly every post. Your bitterness is probably due to your lack of something in your life.... I don't have a clue what it is, but I'm sure you know.

And in closing. No matter what you have to say about me, I'll still sleep every bit as good as if you had said nothing. I don't take offense to any of your ramblings.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes


Its a generally accepted fact culturally and academically that Allah is the same being as the Judeo-Christian God.

So you dispute this because.....?
Allah is considered a god by the muslims but it/he is a moon god.

God of the Bible is not.



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

What are you basing this on, since as I already said its accepted in quite a number of ways that Allah = God of the Bible.



Posted by: OceanDude

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
I'll speak as I wish. Save yourself the energy of trying to appear as if you're not "attacking" or are somehow above this debate as well. You've still yet to address any point I've made and have only resorted to whining and deflecting, and yet somehow seem to try and elevate yourself to some holier-than-thou position.
There you go again. At the first re-invitation to civil dialog you revert to a childish style of “in your face” ranting and defiance. I am quite nearly convinced now that you are incapable of getting to an adult-to-adult interaction pattern. You much prefer to assume a superior parent-to-child oration relationship but yet lack the discipline to long sustain it and rapidly degrade any dialog to a child-child interaction pattern – which I refuse to be a part of. This is precisely your problem and why few here care to be bothered with even replying to you. You have a measure of intellect but you would be much more effective if you could rein in your ego. Even Lucifer stooped to slither into the skin of the snake to give the illusion that he was arguing to the benefit of man and not to his own glory when he tricked Adam & Eve. Is your purpose to instruct, to learn, to divide or to recruit?

I also want to remind you from my initial post that I did not enjoin this thread to debate but to simply state my beliefs. I have my own personal reasons for this. At the risk of getting baited into the debate I’ll only respond to these few wormy things that are so blatantly fallacious that they scream to have their heads crushed and be put out of their misery.

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
...Back to the original point. The uncertainty principle does not apply to macroscopic phenomena. Nor does the wave function. Quantum mechanics, as should be obviously implied by its name, relates only to sub-atomic phenomena.

"Observer-dependent" is a misnomer. The wave function exists in the absence of interaction with other wave-particle systems. This cannot apply to the macro level as there is never a point in which an object is not interacting with another.

Using such theory as a basis for religious thought is bad, bad science, and in any event only makes the God of the Bible appear less and less likely.
Disagree. I don’t even need to get into the science. “Bad” is a religious concept. This is a non sequitur since you would have us believe from prior posts there is no concept of “Bad”. There is another non sequitur in your assertion (through symmetric equality) that science is not religion. This is multiply-transitive-circular on a religious concept that you used in the same discredited argument as well as on your choice to use the concept statistical “improbability” (AKA “uncertainty”) - which is the basis for MY prior statement. And since you seek to discredit this position I am not going to let you use that. In other words you just made my point in the use of the word “improbable” - thanks for agreeing with me. Was this intended as an instruction in the concepts of cohesion and brevity oh wise one?

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
…If you know as much as you claim about string theory, and a comparative knowledge of human psychology and biology, you'd likely understand that a God that has similar motives and drives to a human, even assuming that a creator exists, is highly, highly unlikely.

To say otherwise is to imply that the human mind is somehow patterned after a 10 (or more) dimensional structure of hopeless complexity. Again making for bad science.
Disagree. This whole assertion is redundant and superfluous to the previous disallowed concept of “probability” – but with the addition of one more inconsistency. Since I get to claim all the 10 dimensions of that argument I have now run out of 10 fingers to count on – but we will soon get to the Babylonian standard of 12 if I can borrow the two horns on your head (now it’s fun.). You can’t redundantly argue in terms of probabilities without reinforcing my “uncertainty” concept. It’s remarkably similar to the notion of a “benefit of the doubt” in our justice systems isn’t it? But since you previously presented for consideration Gnosticism as a religion (yet another tired example of a god with petty human like emotions - i.e. jealousy) in much the same way the ancient Greeks & Romans did with their false religion (e.g. Zeus, the whole mount Olympus contingent and their human like emotions and antics) you are once again guilty of a non sequitur and inconsistent philosophical basis. You can’t on the one hand complain that it’s improbable that a god would have petty human emotions while simultaneously expecting anyone to accept your premises that Gnosticism is a viable consideration in your prior post. Sorry you just don’t have any credibility with me (on this topic).

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
...I'm sure I'll be greeted by another paragraph devoid of content and full of big words that will somehow serve to side-step the valid points I made and make me look like a vicious attacker. But that's the nature of these debates. If you can't have your beliefs challenged, don't try to claim them as infallible on a public forum.
I’m still looking for those valid points so I can make sure I don’t side step them by accident? Oops. I don’t see any valid points? Guess not - discussion over.



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

Originally posted by OceanDude
There you go again. At the first re-invitation to civil dialog you revert to a childish style of “in your face” ranting and defiance. I am quite nearly convinced now that you are incapable of getting to an adult-to-adult interaction pattern. You much prefer to assume a superior parent-to-child oration relationship but yet lack the discipline to long sustain it and rapidly degrade any dialog to a child-child interaction pattern – which I refuse to be a part of. This is precisely your problem and why few here care to be bothered with even replying to you. You have a measure of intellect but you would be much more effective if you could rein in your ego. Even Lucifer stooped to slither into the skin of the snake to give the illusion that he was arguing to the benefit of man and not to his own glory when he tricked Adam & Eve. Is your purpose to instruct, to learn, to divide or to recruit?

I'm really getting to the point of telling you to flat out shut up, because this circular reasoning bullshit is getting ridiculous.

I feel bad for anybody that does try to actually talk seriously on a subject with you, because apparently its quite impossible as you'll simply throw three pages of meaningless drivel at them that supposedly tells them they're being childish.

Disagree. I don’t even need to get into the science. “Bad” is a religious concept. This is a non sequitur since you would have us believe from prior posts there is no concept of “Bad”. There is another non sequitur in your assertion (through symmetric equality) that science is not religion. This is multiply-transitive-circular on a religious concept that you used in the same discredited argument as well as on your choice to use the concept statistical “improbability” (AKA “uncertainty”) - which is the basis for MY prior statement. And since you seek to discredit this position I am not going to let you use that. In other words you just made my point in the use of the word “improbable” - thanks for agreeing with me. Was this intended as an instruction in the concepts of cohesion and brevity oh wise one?

Don't argue semantics. Bad science is improper science, simple as that. I don't care how you want to try and dress it up with big words, it doesn't change the meaning of my point. Myopia gets you nowhere.

If you want to use science properly, then do so. Don't use unrelated points to prove your argument and I won't call you on them.

And YET AGAIN you don't act on any of the points, you merely try to side-step with meaningless, overly complex banter.

Disagree. This whole assertion is redundant and superfluous to the previous disallowed concept of “probability” – but with the addition of one more inconsistency. Since I get to claim all the 10 dimensions of that argument I have now run out of 10 fingers to count on – but we will soon get to the Babylonian standard of 12 if I can borrow the two horns on your head (now it’s fun.). You can’t redundantly argue in terms of probabilities without reinforcing my “uncertainty” concept. It’s remarkably similar to the notion of a “benefit of the doubt” in our justice systems isn’t it? But since you previously presented for consideration Gnosticism as a religion (yet another tired example of a god with petty human like emotions - i.e. jealousy) in much the same way the ancient Greeks & Romans did with their false religion (e.g. Zeus, the whole mount Olympus contingent and their human like emotions and antics) you are once again guilty of a non sequitur and inconsistent philosophical basis. You can’t on the one hand complain that it’s improbable that a god would have petty human emotions while simultaneously expecting anyone to accept your premises that Gnosticism is a viable consideration in your prior post. Sorry you just don’t have any credibility with me (on this topic).

Did this paragraph even say anything? I'm serious. If it did, there was no meaning readily apparent.

All I could gather was that you don't think I'm being consistent in my viewpoints. I most assuredly am, since you've never once bothered to ask what exactly I believe.

My stance on the topic is simple. You mis-applied science to justify religion. I called you on it. You complained, saying you understood quite well. I proved otherwise. You still won't address my questions.

I’m still looking for those valid points so I can make sure I don’t side step them by accident? Oops. I don’t see any valid points? Guess not - discussion over.

I just love the self-appointed arrogance demonstrated here. Refusing to acknowledge something doesn't mean its not there.

You've still yet to answer anything I've asked regarding Christian thought, only continuing to write your long, content-free passages that only lead the discussion further and further away from the topic.

I'm not the only one that has beef with Christian ideology. If this is the prevailing Christian mentality in the world, its no wonder that faith is slowly and steadily dying. If Christianity wants to survive, its going to have to evolve past this mentality.

Asking questions about your religion does not imply offense. It seems you and all of your contemporaries feel this way however; maybe its some holdover from the "do as your told and don't think" days. But that doesn't cut it any more. If you can't come up with reasonable, logically consistent answers, you're only going to lose more and more followers.

But maybe that's meant to be.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
What are you basing this on, since as I already said its accepted in quite a number of ways that Allah = God of the Bible.
I think you completly missed the boat when I said that allah and God are not the same. even the muslims don't think so.

And to my knowledge muslim is not a shoot off of Christianity. They simply drew the bible in to help add merit of some sort to the quran, which was written to suit mohamads fancy as he saw fit. He also rewrote it serveral times to allow him to murder, pillage and take other mens wives.



Posted by: Tboy

Snake, TCD and others,

Here is what it boils down to... I'm going to heaven when the time comes. It's your choice to believe or not to believe in heaven or hell. It is also your choice were you will spend eternity. It would be extremely sad to know that someone tried to tell you about it and you closed mindedly turned them down and scorned their attemps at doing so.

I and others could sit here and try to explain the Bible and God to you guys till I'm blue in the face, To what
result?? You would still not believe.

It's true I can't sit here and point God out in a crowd and say "see that's him. Now do you believe?" I also can't go back in history and find the people that wrote the Bible and show them to you. The Bible can stand on it's own by the prophecies or predictions that have happend, also many other history books can concur with the Bible to prove and support it's word. Also many, many people can tell you what they "feel" when they pray to God.

Have you every felt the wind? Could you see it? Could you touch it? How did you know that it was there? You saw the results of the wind, but never the wind it self. The same is true with God. I really can't explain it further than that. I can show you scriptures in the Bible to help you understand it, but first you have to believe in the Bible.

Before you knock me, try it for yourself... What have you got to loose? Six feet of dirt on your head when you die? What have you got to gain? To me the choice would be simple.



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

I look at it this way.

I'm going to live my life as a good person, in touch with my inner light and the connection it brings me to all things in this world and above this world.

When I die, if I encounter the being you call God and he turns me away from his paradise, then I will be happy to go. Why? Because that being is corrupt and evil.

If he would turn away good people over a matter of dogmatic triviality, then that's a being I want no part of. That's no better than any fascist propaganda dealt by a fallible human dictator. And its certainly not the characteristic of a being claiming to be the source of love and compassion.

So I will live my life as a good, caring person who fights for truth and for right. If God chooses to punish me for that, then so be it. But just bear in mind, that's no perfect being if that's the case.



Posted by: Prince

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
I look at it this way.

I'm going to live my life as a good person, in touch with my inner light and the connection it brings me to all things in this world and above this world.

When I die, if I encounter the being you call God and he turns me away from his paradise, then I will be happy to go. Why? Because that being is corrupt and evil.

If he would turn away good people over a matter of dogmatic triviality, then that's a being I want no part of. That's no better than any fascist propaganda dealt by a fallible human dictator. And its certainly not the characteristic of a being claiming to be the source of love and compassion.

So I will live my life as a good, caring person who fights for truth and for right. If God chooses to punish me for that, then so be it. But just bear in mind, that's no perfect being if that's the case.


Good Post!



Posted by: Snake_Eyes

Edit: This was originally in response to Pepper's comment about my words being outrageous and blasphemous.

In your context, I'm sure it is.

But as I've been trying to state, I don't see the universe within those confines.

I'm using the standard of logic, reason, and simple compassion for life to determine my standards of "good" and "evil," not what's laid out in the Bible. My own feelings of kinship towards other beings, towards nature, and towards the universe as a whole, determine my morality....not words from a 2000 year old dead culture.

And by those standards, God's standard to enter Heaven is what is outrageous to me.

If he tells a good person to go away over trivial matters, and yes that's what they are, then he is not the all-loving embodiment of compassion.

That's the whole point of this argument. If God is allowing ANYONE to suffer because they don't "know" him, that's not divine judgment...that's a childish tantrum.

You see what I'm saying as outrageous and blasphemous, because you're only looking at the situation in the context of your beliefs. I'm looking at it, trying my best, from an objective standard.

That's where my thoughts on the issue are coming from...introspection and a compassionate heart. And they're telling me that something is massively wrong with the ideology of sacrifice and punishment.



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
Edit: This was originally in response to Pepper's comment about my words being outrageous and blasphemous.

In your context, I'm sure it is.

But as I've been trying to state, I don't see the universe within those confines.

I'm using the standard of logic, reason, and simple compassion for life to determine my standards of "good" and "evil," not what's laid out in the Bible. My own feelings of kinship towards other beings, towards nature, and towards the universe as a whole, determine my morality....not words from a 2000 year old dead culture.

And by those standards, God's standard to enter Heaven is what is outrageous to me.

If he tells a good person to go away over trivial matters, and yes that's what they are, then he is not the all-loving embodiment of compassion.

That's the whole point of this argument. If God is allowing ANYONE to suffer because they don't "know" him, that's not divine judgment...that's a childish tantrum.

You see what I'm saying as outrageous and blasphemous, because you're only looking at the situation in the context of your beliefs. I'm looking at it, trying my best, from an objective standard.

That's where my thoughts on the issue are coming from...introspection and a compassionate heart. And they're telling me that something is massively wrong with the ideology of sacrifice and punishment.
Sorry, I deleted my post b/c I decided to just stay out of it. I did not realize you had read it. I will re-post it as close as I can remember it later today (when I have more time.)

I don't like doing that, but I thought I had done it quick enough. My bad.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
When I die, if I encounter the being you call God and he turns me away from his paradise, then I will be happy to go. Why? Because that being is corrupt and evil.
I don't know your age but I assume you have job. I also assume that you have a boss. Suppose your boss sets forth rules that say: Monday is white sock day. In order to get into work, you must wear a pair of white socks. There is no leeway to this rule.

Would that make him unfair or unjust? It's his company. He can do with it as he sees fit right? Everybody I know and have known all my life has had at least one pair of white socks, or the means of getting a pair. So it should not be a problem for anyone to comply. Correct?

The same could be said about have a chance to be with God. Everybody has been given the chance/choice of complying with the rules set forth in the Bible for getting into heaven. (crude point, but hopefully you get the jest of it)

If he would turn away good people over a matter of dogmatic triviality, then that's a being I want no part of. That's no better than any fascist propaganda dealt by a fallible human dictator. And its certainly not the characteristic of a being claiming to be the source of love and compassion.
The Bible states that God is a fair and just God.

When your mom and/or dad took you home from the hospital just after birth, why did they take only you? Because you were the only one there that was their child. Was that fair to all the other babies? No, but you had met the criteria that they had set forth at the time of them leaving the hospital. The Bible has also made it quite clear what it takes to be a child of God and to be part of the home coming of his children.

So I will live my life as a good, caring person who fights for truth and for right.
Thats great. You are already a step ahead of most people.

If God chooses to punish me for that, then so be it.
For your sake, I hope he doesn't.



Posted by: Prince

Hey Tboy, so what about the millions of poeple (such as Asians) in this world that have never even been exposed to christianity and it's bible?
For example Buddhists, are they all going to hell?



Posted by: Pepper

Originally posted by Prince
Hey Tboy, so what about the millions of poeple (such as Asians) in this world that have never even been exposed to christianity and it's bible?
For example Buddhists, are they all going to hell?
The Bible states that "general revelation" in nature is enough for believe in God. This is a difficult question, though, and the exact answer is one we may not know until "the day" comes. I do believe that viewing creation is enough to know there is a god, how that jives with trust in Christ, I don't know. I think this just underscores how important it is to get the Word out there, in every way possible.

I do know that churchs everywhere are sending missionaries to all parts of the world to spread the Gospel. We are commanded to in the Bible. A huge percentage of our church budget goes to funding missionaries.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Prince
Hey Tboy, so what about the millions of poeple (such as Asians) in this world that have never even been exposed to christianity and it's bible?
For example Buddhists, are they all going to hell?
Actually, there are lots of missionaries all over the world that are preaching and teaching the word.

There have been tribes found, in really remote places that missionaries have found, worshiping God. They could not explain how they knew to do so, just it was always done that way.

About the Buddhists, it's not my call. Nothing I say could will it one way or the other. I do know they are one of the most peacefull "religious" groups of people found anywhere.

This scripture
"Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.”
(Matt 24:40-42)
Leads me to believe (my belief only) that 50% of the worlds population will go. I don't think (my belief again) that litteraly every other person will go... but 50% over all.

(as a side note if anyone is interested in talking about this to someone locally, I could hook you up)



Posted by: Prince

so, basically your answer is that christianity is riteous and if one does not believe in it they're wrong.



Posted by: Tboy

Originally posted by Pepper
The Bible states that "general revelation" in nature is enough for believe in God. This is a difficult question, though, and the exact answer is one we may not know until "the day" comes. I do believe that viewing creation is enough to know there is a god, how that jives with trust in Christ, I don't know. I think this just underscores how important it is to get the Word out there, in every way possible.

I do know that churchs everywhere are sending missionaries to all parts of the world to spread the Gospel. We are commanded to in the Bible. A huge percentage of our church budget goes to funding missionaries.

I posted nearly the same thing you did without even knowing it.



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