Caffine=Fat? [Forum Archive]

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Caffine=Fat?

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Posted by: IronSlingah

I was wondering if ure body uses caffine as a form of energy before going to the glycogen becuase if it does wuddent this inhibit fat loss?

Posted by: Mudge

Caffeine makes the body act like a diabetics, so really it is not recommended for dieters.

Posted by: OceanDude

I am one of the weird ones that recommend that people get completely off caffeine. I personally can correlate rapid fat increase at a point in my life when I started drinking coffee heavily. I am of the belief that it interferes with insulin production and hormonal functions which are key for natural bodybuilders. I did some research and did find a number of very interesting articles that pretty much ratify my hunch.

In the recent Diabetes Care study (2002 Keijzers, GB, et al 25:2, 364-369), it was suggested that caffeine decreased insulin sensitivity even in healthy individuals. In that study, caffeine reduced insulin sensitivity by 15%. It was theorized that the decrease in insulin sensitivity could occur because the drug increases levels of free fatty acids, as well as the hormone epinephrine.

Almost a dozen other studies produced similar findings.

Rob Faigin, author of Natural Hormonal Enhancement, wrote something about caffeine that I found extremely insightful. Rob wrote:
"Contrary to popular belief, caffeine does not give you energy - it lends you energy (the same applies to all other stimulant drugs, as well). The energy it lends you, you must pay back. Consequently, if you have more energy in the morning as a result of ingesting caffeine, you will have less energy in the evening. This can be very disadvantageous for people who train late in the day."

Very good article here about coffee/caffeine for serious body builders that pretty much condemns it.
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/showthread/t-395.html

Summary:
Caffeine intake (in all of its forms) decreases whole body glucose disposal (carbohydrate uptake) by 15-30%.

2) Caffeine intake decreases skeletal muscle glucose disposal by 50%.

3) When consumed with a standard carbohydrate breakfast, caffeine decreases insulin sensitivity, leading to large increases in blood insulin…
4) Caffeine decreases insulin sensitivity for at least three hours…
…In this case, many people are probably walking around all day with impaired insulin sensitivity. If you're a coffee drinker you should realize that you're living your life like a diabetic except during the times that it could actually be diagnosed. When you go to the doc to see why you're so fat or you feel like crap (if you have any glucose or insulin tolerance problems), what do you have to do? You have to fast overnight and avoid coffee! So 99% of your waking life you're functionally diabetic and that 1% of the time when it really matters and can be diagnosed, you're not. No wonder experts suggest that 50% of North Americans are diabetics who aren't diagnosed as such.

5) In one study, four groups were used to evaluate the effect of caffeine and glycemic index on insulin sensitivity.

• The first group got decaf and a low-GI breakfast. They saw a normal blood glucose and insulin response.

• The second group got decaf and a high-GI breakfast. They saw a bigger insulin and glucose response in the blood.

• However, when the low GI group got regular coffee with breakfast, their blood profile was worse than that of those who got the high-glycemic breakfast and decaf. Therefore coffee/caffeine can turn a low glycemic meal into a high glycemic meal!

• Finally, the group that drank coffee and had the high-glycemic meal ended up looking like diabetics.

6) One interesting hypothesis generated at the seminar was as follows: In terms of insulin sensitivity, caffeine alone is worse than coffee and obviously (as seen above) coffee is worse than nothing. However, some people believe that certain substances in coffee (specific quinides) can actually increase glucose disposal and improve insulin sensitivity. While the quinide content of coffee isn't strong enough to counter the effects of the caffeine, the quinides in decaf coffee may actually increase glucose and insulin tolerance. This hypothesis still needs to be tested and proper doses have yet to be discussed; however, keep your eyes out for this research in the near future.

So the final word on coffee and caffeine is this — stay the heck away from it! The only way to minimize the damage it causes may be to drink your coffee with a very low carbohydrate meal and eat only low carb meals for the next few hours after your coffee intake. I know, I know, it now sucks to be a coffee drinker! But giving up your java may bring you some great health and physique benefits.

Other Links:
http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/inf...s/caffeine.htm

http://www.diabetes.ca/Section_About/caffeine.asp

Posted by: dymas

OceanDude - good post man! Made for some good reading.

Just curious though, all those weight-loss pills like Xenadrine or whatever aren't those just caffeine in a highly concentrated form? Never taken any of those pills but from seeing some co-workers take it there heart rates went up which probably made them burn more calories. They also felt their "core" body temp get warmer. These happen to also be side-effects (direct-effects?

) of caffeine.

Just curious what you thought since you seem to have done alot of homework on the subject

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by dymas
OceanDude - good post man! Made for some good reading.

Just curious though, all those weight-loss pills like Xenadrine or whatever aren't those just caffeine in a highly concentrated form? Never taken any of those pills but from seeing some co-workers take it there heart rates went up which probably made them burn more calories. They also felt their "core" body temp get warmer. These happen to also be side-effects (direct-effects?

) of caffeine.

From what I am reading I am inclined to accept the notion that caffeine simply “lends” you energy temporarily (like going down hill on a country road) then takes it back as you come up the other side. If you don’t change your metabolic set point it’s a net zero gain in my opinion since there seems to be some evidence that the body wants to “balance” energy levels.

Posted by: Snake_Eyes

I dunno, I'm all for caffeine. I don't think Berardi makes his case that well. Beta-agonist activity is known to reduce fat through a variety of mechanisms, and I'm not sure I buy the "energy deficit" idea.

Consider the other side of the argument:

Caffeine, as a b3-adrenergic agonist, improves lipolysis in white adipose tissue:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Caffeine upregulates expression of uncoupling proteins:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Water with caffeine increases fat oxidation more than Oolong tea:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Caffeine improves lipolysis and fat oxidation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Caffeine reduces fat stores (and cures cancer

):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Caffeine increases hormone-sensitive lipase in muscle:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Caffeine-mediated insulin secretion is dependent on high glucose concentrations:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Caffeine shows insignificant insulin-enhancing propertes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Coffee consumption is associated with a lessened risk of Type II diabetes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Exercise reduces the effect of caffeine-mediated insulin resistance in muscle:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Posted by: Pepper

Now showing: OceanDude v Snake_Eyes, Part II

Posted by: Prince

I will not go into any lengthy detail since that has already been done!

I love caffiene!

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
I dunno, I'm all for caffeine. ...

There has been entirely too much fallibility consistently demonstrated over the years from incomplete scientific study in the entire area of nutrition and fat loss. I also question motive. Many studies have been motivated and funded by special interest organizations (such as the large coffee producing companies) that are inclined to publish only those findings that are of benefit to their own interests. Excepting for purely scientific endeavors (which are usually few due to lack of neutral financial sponsorship) none are motivated to present or advertise contrary findings that are not to their personal or organizational gain.

With regards to caffeine/coffee, the undisputable finding is that it influences insulin or insulin sensitivity. I say indisputable since advocates of both antagonistic views in the arguments try to simultaneously claim this effect as “good” and “bad”. With effect irrefutably thus established we are then back to the topic of religion.

I have found a current mechanism that is wholly natural and independent of drugs which consistently works well for me in the objective of fat loss; and it does not include coffee. For myself then I have already decided that coffee is not for me. Others can of course do as they wish.

You have before you fire and water – stretch forth your hand and chose your portion.

Posted by: Snake_Eyes

Originally posted by OceanDude
There has been entirely too much fallibility consistently demonstrated over the years from incomplete scientific study in the entire area of nutrition and fat loss. I also question motive. Many studies have been motivated and funded by special interest organizations (such as the large coffee producing companies) that are inclined to publish only those findings that are of benefit to their own interests. Excepting for purely scientific endeavors (which are usually few due to lack of neutral financial sponsorship) none are motivated to present or advertise contrary findings that are not to their personal or organizational gain.

With regards to caffeine/coffee, the undisputable finding is that it influences insulin or insulin sensitivity. I say indisputable since advocates of both antagonistic views in the arguments try to simultaneously claim this effect as “good” and “bad”. With effect irrefutably thus established we are then back to the topic of religion.

These paragraphs contradict each other. In the first you're saying that you can't believe studies because they're tainted by financial motives, and in the second you're saying that the insulin-modulating properties are indisputable.

You couldn't know that unless it was taken from relatively recent research.

I have found a current mechanism that is wholly natural and independent of drugs which consistently works well for me in the objective of fat loss; and it does not include coffee. For myself then I have already decided that coffee is not for me. Others can of course do as they wish.

I never said coffee. I said caffeine.

The fact of the issue is that caffeine is a strong beta-AR agonist, that it does affect insulin in ways which probably aren't bad, and it stimulates Ca++ release in the muscle which can aid in production of contractile force.

Its also been proven time and again to affect body composition in a positive fashion.

If you want to use it, fine, if not, fine, but don't go off on some philosophical trip of mental masturbation when the plain facts are right there.

Posted by: sara

coffee

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
These paragraphs contradict each other. In the first you're saying that you can't believe studies because they're tainted by financial motives, and in the second you're saying that the insulin-modulating properties are indisputable.

You couldn't know that unless it was taken from relatively recent research.

If you want to use it, fine, if not, fine, but don't go off on some philosophical trip of mental masturbation when the plain facts are right there.

Why must you always be so obnoxious and confrontational over every single small thing? If I am your bird I mean to shift my bush. Get some style - please.
Why is it so difficult to comprehend such a simple statement? I really don’t care if you agree or not but I’ll belabor my point one single time more to help you comprehend.
Consider two parties competing for ideas in a hostile way (each with their own private motives opposed to the other) – call them party “A” and party “B”. If “A” asserts “Red is good because it makes me feel good” and “B” asserts “Red is bad because it makes me feel bad” then a neutral third party “C” can logically conclude that ostensibly “Red makes people feel both good and bad”. Assuming that there is no out and out fraud and only a non-objective basis for the comparison Party C can simplify this and further deduce “Red effects how people feel”. Party “C”, in the absence of other knowledge can not however logically conclude that “Red does not influence how people feel”. In this discussion this is precisely what I concluded from multiple diametrically opposed research camps – coffee/caffeine influences insulin and/or insulin sensitivity. There is no inconsistency in this. Am I going to have to get into Boolean logic theorems on everything I post to explain these things?

Posted by: Pepper

Quote:

Originally posted by sara
coffee

Why?

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by Pepper
Why?

Pepper, as a practical point the best information I have been able to find suggests that the level of caffeine present in coffee is probably not too significant if its less than 2-4 cups per day. This will be of some comfort to those that lack the will power to sacrifice that morning cup of java.

Personally I use to drink like 5-6 "cups" per day of large "mug" sizes - which is really more like 10 cups of coffee or more (really strong stuff too). I was able to stop "cold turkey" in a single day with only a mild headache for that first day or two.

Posted by: sara

Quote:

Originally posted by Pepper
Why?

why drink something that you'r body don't need? it's like you'r cheating you'rself!

coffee

Posted by: Jodi

Because we enjoy it Sara.

I see nothing wrong with coffee. I've been there done that. Got rid of coffee all together and I tried switching to decaf and now I drink 1-2 cups a day in the morning and there is no difference in my fat loss with or without it. Soooo I might as well enjoy my cup of Jo' is how I see it.

If I was competing then I could see getting rid of it come close to competition but I'm no so screw it. Enjoy

Posted by: DaMayor

Quote:

Originally posted by Pepper
Now showing: OceanDude v Snake_Eyes, Part II

Posted by: Pepper

Quote:

Originally posted by sara
why drink something that you'r body don't need? it's like you'r cheating you'rself!

coffee

For me, when I ONLY eat/drink things I need, my diet has gone off the deep end. What about ingredients that have no nutritional value but make the food taste better...sweeteners? moderate salt? Salad dressing?

Another thing, who says my body doesn't need it? Ever tried doing taxes all day and stay awake without some caffiene?

Posted by: sara

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pepper
For me, when I ONLY eat/drink things I need, my diet has gone off the deep end. What about ingredients that have no nutritional value but make the food taste better...sweeteners? moderate salt? Salad dressing?

have you tried mint tea? that always helps me

Another thing, who says my body doesn't need it? Ever tried doing taxes all day and stay awake without some caffiene?

[/QUOTE
no but I hope I will soon

Posted by: OceanDude

I'm with you Sara. As a natural kind of body builder I want as few things as possible to have to manage - the fewer hormonal factors to deal with the simpler and better it is for me. Since I have an abundance of will power I just don't have any inordinate desire to drink coffee anymore – just quit cold turkey one day. I also hardly ever use any external seasonings anymore (except natural anti-oxidants like garlic and the like) or things that stimulate strong aromatic responses and hunger signals. I am actually kind of amazing myself at how easy it was to beat the few minor fast carb addictions I previously had. I am now at a state of only eating for the sake of nutrition rather than for pleasure as I use to.

Posted by: Mudge

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
From what I am reading I am inclined to accept the notion that caffeine simply “lends” you energy temporarily (like going down hill on a country road)

Sounds good to me, remember it is a DRUG not a food - and the body will adjust after time to where its effects are lessened. This is one of many, many things which supposedly raises serotonin levels only temporarily.

For better or worse my observation on scientific study, is that there is a plus and minus in equal or non-equal parts. Alcohol is good, but it is bad, and so on. I also believe there is bias in science, of course somewhat making it not science, but educated and "motivated" guessing or tweaking of results at best.

Posted by: sara

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
I'm with you Sara. As a natural kind of body builder I want as few things as possible to have to manage - the fewer hormonal factors to deal with the simpler and better it is for me. Since I have an abundance of will power I just don't have any inordinate desire to drink coffee anymore – just quit cold turkey one day. I also hardly ever use any external seasonings anymore (except natural anti-oxidants like garlic and the like) or things that stimulate strong aromatic responses and hunger signals. I am actually kind of amazing myself at how easy it was to beat the few minor fast carb addictions I previously had. I am now at a state of only eating for the sake of nutrition rather than for pleasure as I use to.

you have a journal hear that has you'r meals?

Posted by: Jodi

You guys have to learn to enjoy life. BB and dieting is not suppose to control you, your suppose to control it.

Live a little!

Posted by: y2gt

Quote:

multiple diametrically opposed research camps

Quote:

Am I going to have to get into Boolean logic theorems on everything I post to explain these things?

Hey OceanDude-
Are you an engineer or physicist?

You sound like my professors back in college, i studied mechanical engineering! I'm joking around.....Keep posting those interesting links!

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by sara

you have a journal hear that has you'r meals?

No Sara I do not. I pretty much just have a single guiding principal that I follow for food: 1) eat 6x per day, 2) never exceed about 500 cals in any single meal, 3) Strive for a balanced macro nutrient profile close to 40/40/20 (protein, carb, essential fat), 4) work in a high volume (but low cal) portion of veggies and fiber within the carb domain, 5) use lean cuts of meats for protein and supliment with EFAs after they are cooked. That and drinking lots of water and taking some other suppliments.

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by y2gt
Hey OceanDude-
Are you an engineer or physicist?

You sound like my professors back in college, i studied mechanical engineering! I'm joking around.....Keep posting those interesting links!

Mostly engineering/computer science y2 but trained also in a fair amount of physics, science, mathmatics, etc.. Also have business degrees but I try to keep that quiet

...

As a ME you might enjoy this:
Q: "How do you make steel wool"?
A: "Sheer a hydraulic ram."

Dry, bad humor ... sorry

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