Push/Pull split [Forum Archive]

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Push/Pull split

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Posted by: HoldDaMayo

I read Dante mention something about a push/pull split, which is similar to what I'm doing now i think... Where can i get some good info with more details about this workout routine?

Thanks guys...

Posted by: plouffe

I know of a push/pull method to make crystal meth? That's all i can think of..

Posted by: gr81

be more specific about what you are asking. Most of the movements done for chest and back are pushing and pulling movements, is that what you are talking about?

Posted by: HoldDaMayo

I did some research online and found out pretty much what I was looking for... Basically I am going to start a Push/Pull routine:

Week 1

Mon:Pull
Wed:Push
Fri:Pull

Week 2

Mon:Push
Wed:Pull
Fri:Push

I'm going to try it for 6 weeks... it's time for me to switch up my routine...

Posted by: plouffe

hmmm....

Posted by: HoldDaMayo

what do you think? I'm always open for some advice... I just tend to see better results when I train very hard and have more days rest for recovery, this just seems to fit what I was looking for in a workout... I have been doing

Mon: back/bicept
Wed: chest/tricept
Fri: lower back, abs, shoulders

I like the Mon/Wed/Fri lifting days, I am always looking for the best workout to fit my Mon/Wed/Fri workout days...

I am not an expert, I try and educate myself by reading, I have read some good things about a push/pull split routine... But, I am ALWAYS appreciative of feedback, especially from very experienced lifters/trainers...

Posted by: JerseyPaul

HoldDaMayo, I love ya man but it's biceps and triceps .

Just keeping you straight.

Posted by: yellowmoomba

Quote:

Originally posted by HoldDaMayo
what do you think? I'm always open for some advice... I just tend to see better results when I train very hard and have more days rest for recovery, this just seems to fit what I was looking for in a workout... I have been doing

Mon: back/bicept
Wed: chest/tricept
Fri: lower back, abs, shoulders

I like the Mon/Wed/Fri lifting days, I am always looking for the best workout to fit my Mon/Wed/Fri workout days...

I am not an expert, I try and educate myself by reading, I have read some good things about a push/pull split routine... But, I am ALWAYS appreciative of feedback, especially from very experienced lifters/trainers...

I usually do a weekly PUSH/PULL/LEGS routine which I really like. Since you like M/W/F this would work.

Here is a sample of my routine from my journal. I do a different abs workout with each

11/25/03
PUSH DAY

Bench
235 x 5
235 x 4
235 x 2

45' Incline DB
95 x 5
95 x 4

Dips (BW +75lbs)
5
6
6

DB Shoulder Press
70 x 5
70 x 5
70 x 4

Incline Fly
70 x 3

Side Raises
40 x 5
40 x 5
40 x 5

CG Bench Press
185 x 3
155 x 5
155 x 5

Single arm cable reverse pushdown
70 x 6
70 x 6
70 x 6

ABS
Trunk Pulldowns
125 x 15
125 x 15
125 x 15

Swiss Ball Crunch Twist
10
10

Bridge 30 seconds
Sideways Bridge 30 seconds (each)

PULL DAY 11/26/03

BACK

Pullups (BW +45)
7
6
6

Supinated Grip Pullup (BW +45)
5
4

Lawnmowers
140 x 6
140 x 6

Hammer Low Row
300 x 5
300 x 5
300 x 5

BICEPS

EZ Bar Curl
115 x 6
115 x 5
115 x 6

Seated DB Curl
45 x 5
45 x 5
45 x 5

TRAPS

Shrugs
365 x 6
365 x 6
365 x 6

Upright Row
130 x 6
130 x 6
130 x 5

ABS
Hanging knee raises
12
12

Leg Day
11/29/03

Squats
225 x 12
225 x 10
225 x 8

Extentions
225 x 12
250 x 10
250 x 8

SLDL
225 x 10
225 x 10
225 x 10

Machine Leg Press
250 x 15
250 x 15
300 x 8

Calve Raises
90 x 15
90 x 15

ABS
Trunk Pulldowns
120 x 15
120 x 15
120 x 15

Good Luck!

Posted by: Dante B.

Here's an example of my current split, cut and pasted from another board. I'm training around several injuries/ailments, which is why my routine is more machine oriented at the moment.

Day 1: Push
Chest:
4 sets of HS wide bench.

3-4 sets of forward dips. It hits your chest harder if you lean forward, and it helps if you do this on the pull-up/dip machine.
Quads:
[I'll be going back to sumo squats, ROB-style, in a few weeks.]
4 sets of one-legged leg presses---wide
4 sets of one-legged leg presses---close

Calves:

Various movements on the leg press machine. I love training calves this way. I'll do regular presses, then presses with my knees bent (is similar to doing a seated raise), and reverse presses (pushing with my heels).

Some of these are supersets. I change it up whenever I like.

Shoulders:
[I started doing dumbbell presses again, but my shoulders are acting up so I have to pull back for now]

Cable rotator cuff internal and external: 4 sets each

Machine lateral raises: 2 sets. I prefer dumbbells, but for now this spares my shoulders as well as my bicep tendons.

Reverse pec deck: 3 sets. I always used dumbbells, but I absolutely adore the machine version now, when done correctly (and unlike many people, I didn't swing on the free weight version).

Triceps:
[Still having issues with my elbows, and I haven't been able to train my triceps with heavy compound movements for many weeks. I adore skull crushers, and close-grip benches, but they are counter-productive for the time being]

HS dips: 4 sets. It helps if you keep your body in an upright position.

4 sets of reverse presses on the lat pulldown. Depending on how I position my arms, this allows me to work my triceps without stressing my elbows.

Day 2: Pull
Back/Traps

[Tendon issues are currently preventing me from doing anything with a pronated grip]

HS reverse grip pulldown, one arm at a time: 3-4 sets. Saves my lower back.

HS reverse pulldown, leaning back: 3-4 sets. I use this, as the HS low row doesn't accommodate a curl grip. Dumbbell rows with a curl grip are incredibly awkward, if you use enough weight.

HS shrugs: 4 sets The dumbbells aren't heavy enough, and I prefer to shrug with my palms facing my sides. Eventually, I'm going to use a barbell with the plates loaded on one end.

Hamstrings:

[This is my weak area, so I've been using the exercises that allow me to feel the hams contracting the most. I love good mornings, but my lower back is out of it for now]

HS shrug SLDL: 4 sets. Unlike using the free weight version, you can alter your foot positioning in such a manner that more stress is places on your hams, but not your back.

Leg curls: 4 sets

I also throw in several sets of abductor/adductor.

Biceps:
[For over a month I couldn't perform curls, or any heavy free weight movements because of my tendons. Now I can, but not with a pronated grip]
Barbell curls: 2 sets shoulder width, 2 sets wide.

Reverse curls on a lat pulldown: 4 sets. This is the only way I can do any reverse grip curls.

Grip work/forearms:

Wrist curls, regular and reverse: 2 sets each

2-3 sets of cable-grips

COC grippers at home, after my workout.

Abs:

Side bends using a barbell with the plates loaded on one end, gripping the bar just under the collar.

Whatever I'm in the mood for, in order to train abs. I don't go for reps, I train my abs heavy.

Posted by: HoldDaMayo

thanks for the info... especially the spelling info...

Posted by: Dante B.

I'm going to be writing up a thorough post on push/pull training soon, but for now here is a modified email that I sent to someone.

Anyhow, push/pull.

This can be done in many ways, speaking in terms of sets, reps, volume, rest intervals and exercise order. For now, you may wish to take a more conventional approach in terms of reps and rest periods (6-8 reps, a minute in between).

People have a totally backward stance on dieting---in terms of placing emphasis on the diet and calories, where instead the primary emphasis should be on training approach. Down the line, we can alter it with a hybrid approach: ROB-style---Rest Only Briefly, 20 to 30 seconds in between sets---- and conventional in terms of rest periods.

It can also be split into Day 1A, Day2 A, and Day1 B Day2 B, speaking by way of being able to perform more exercises for a particular part, if you're trying to bring it up.

Here's the basic split. Reps should be in the range of 6-10, with rest about a minute or so in between. Nothing should be purposefully taken to failure (occasionally you will fail if you add more weight to the next workout, and can't hit as many reps, but that's okay).

Total sets can be anywhere from 6-8 with larger parts, and 4-8 with smaller ones (depending on what you wish to bring up). For now, we'll do 6 to 8 sets in general.

[You can choose the exercises as you wish, as I suggested the following for a certain individual. Choose primarily compound movements, setting aside whatever you may be limited to by nature of injury.

For now I'd simply choose two to three exercises per part, and if you're trying to bring up a given area and wish to use more exercises, split it into Day1A and Day2A, and Day1B and Day 2B. So for example, on push day for quads, you may do squats and leg extensions on Day 1A, and sumo squats and one-legged leg pressed on Day1B]

Day 1 Push

Chest: 3 sets of HS wide bench
3 sets of Dips with a forward lean (better on the dip/pull-up machine, as it's much harder, but much better for your chest if you lean forward).

Quads: 3-4 sets of one-legged leg presses with a close stance.

3-4 sets with a wide stance

Calves: I love doing calves on the leg press sled. 2-3 sets of regular presses.

2-3 sets with your knees bent, as this mimics a steated calf raise, and saves time.

2-3 sets of reverse presses, pressing with your heels, lifting your toes off the platform.

Two of these exercises can be super-setted.

Shoulders: whatever you need for internal/external rotations, doing 2 sets each

2 sets of lateral raises
2-3 sets of whatever pressing movement of your choice.
2 sets of reverse pec deck

Triceps: 3 sets of skull crushers and 3 sets of dumbbell presses with a hammer grip. Lay down on a bench with two dumbbells, hold the dumbbells over your head with your arms straight, and with a hammer grip [palms facing each other], and lower the weight down to the sides of your head while keeping your elbows and your upper-arms straight.

Day2 Pull

Back/Traps
2 exercises for back, 3 sets each.
Shrugs of whatever kind (love the Hammer Strength shrug), 3 sets

Hamstrings:
4 sets of one-legged leg presses with an elevated foot position.
3 sets of lying leg curls. [If you don't have back problems, start off with 3-4 sets of SLDL, or good mornings, and follow it with the one-legged elevated presses]

Biceps:
2 sets of barbbell curls.
2 sets of wide-grip barbbell curls
2 sets of reverse curls (prefer doing these with a lat pulldown cable, grabbing the bar, bending over, and pulling as though you were reverse curling).

Abs: Whatever you want, two to three exercises for 3 sets each. It should be heavy, with 4 reps so as not to build your waist. Weighted crunches are good, in addition to weighted side-bends with a barbbell (load one side of the bar, stand along side it, and grab the bar right under the collar on the loaded side)

Forearms/grip, if you wish to. It is good though, to train your grip.

Repeat. At first, you may wish to do this 2 days on, 1 day off. When I'm actually doing well, I'll take days off whenever I need it, sometimes lifting for 6 or 7 days in a row. Again, moderating the volume and avoiding purposeful failure is key to being able to train frequently---which is the essense of learning and adapting, as that is what strength and hypertrophy is, learning adaptations.

Any of this can be rearranged, as it is highly adaptable if you're trying to concentrate on certain areas more so than others, in which case the exercise selection and order can be varied.

Again, volume can be lowered or raised as needed, especially if you wish to emphasize one part over another. As you are not training to failure, it's easier to recover, as frequency is the key here. In terms of dieting, if we do part of this ROB-sytle, we can still maintain strength, while also creating a condition where positive partioning is in action, and you don't have to count calories as much.

Try this at first, and in several weeks, we can even split it into Day 1A and B, and Day 2 A and B, if one day is going to be used for a more ROB-style approach, with the other for a more conventional approach. It can also be split up this way if a different selection of exercises is going to be used on each day (e.g quads on day1A: squats, leg extensions--quads on
day1B: One legged leg presses, wide and close).

Posted by: Dante B.

I should also add that, on average, a workout of this nature should take anywhere between 45 minutes to an hour. If you're going beyond that, either cut down your sets, or lower the rest periods.

Posted by: Tha Don

okay

i don't get this routine at all man

this will put size on?

firstly if i'm training 7 days a week when will i have time to grow, isn't that overtraining slighty??

secondly, how will i get bigger when the weights will be a lot lighter? and i'm not training to failiure?

I ain't saying it ain't good, i just can't understand it, the logic of totally ripping each bodypart in a heavy session once a week, and then leaving the rest of the week for growth seems to make more sense to me

if your serious about this you can PM me and explain in more detail, i'd like to know the theory behind your logic

peace

Posted by: Dante B.

Quote:

Originally posted by young d
if your serious about this

No, I'm not serious. I came up with this routine after smoking one too many rocks of crack. I'm sure it shows. But I'll try to explain it away, just to save face.

Quote:

this will put size on?

No. In most cases, you'll end up looking as if you were on the Body By Buchenwald diet. But that's the look that's in!

This routine can be used for bulking, cutting, powerlifting-----anything. It's just a matter of how it's modified.

Quote:

firstly if i'm training 7 days a week when will i have time to grow, isn't that overtraining slighty??

I didn't say to train 7 days a week. At first, I'd start off with 2 days on, 1 off. And as volume and intensity is key, if you avoid burning out your CNS, you can train witih greater frequency.

Losses in strength often have nothing to do with the muscle itself; rather it is CNS-related. And if your CNS is compromised, you can't function efficiently, in which regards you can't properly stimulate your muscles (try lifting weights while you're drunk, as an example in concept).

In other words, people typically confuse the lack of progress, or the loss of size or strength with a purely muscular phenomen.

Quote:

secondly, how will i get bigger when the weights will be a lot lighter? and i'm not training to failiure?

Who said that the weights will be a lot lighter? There are many ways to do train, and do a push/pull. Lifting the heaviest weight possible---in terms of the invididual---doesn't necessarily mean that you're creating an optimal environment for hypertrophy.

If so were the case, we'd all take 10 minute rests, and train like powerlifters. Actually, if we trained like powerlifters, we'd all look like bodybuilders, if the matter was as simple as that.

The same goes for failure. What makes anyone think---in general, that is---that failure is necessary for growth. If that were the case, volume routine such as GVT would never work.

If you are using progressive resistance, and training with some greater or lesser degree of frequency, progress can be had. I do, however, think failure to be necessary if you're doing the conventional one-bodypart-per-week split.

Why? Because so much time is passing after a given bodypart is directly trained, that you have to create as much damage as possible. It's also that very reason that makes the entire concept absolutely ridiculous, and often counter-productive, if at least not as productive for the average trainer.

Quote:

I ain't saying it ain't good, i just can't understand it, the logic of totally ripping each bodypart in a heavy session once a week, and then leaving the rest of the week for growth seems to make more sense to me

What is the process of adapting, but learning. And through what means does a person learn. Is it not stimulation, and frequency? Unlike how the typical person approaches lifting and hypertrophy, the all or nothing, annihilation training approach is not the best method suited for the typical person. And by typical, I don't necessarily mean average, or beginner, either.

Posted by: Dante B.

I was just having some fun with you, BTW.

I'm really not that much of an asshole. I said "that much," which isn't to say that I'm not at all.

Posted by: Tha Don

its cool man

check this out...

before i started doing each BP once a week splits, I was on a split like this...

I split my body into 2 days:
Day1-Chest and Back (and a little Abs)
Day2-Arms and Shoulders (and a little Legs)

I would work out every other day, and each workout would alternate between the two sessions.

I've always felt that this has worked for me better than a once a week for each BP split!

Problems with it are... i'd always be working out on a different day each week, so its hard to plan things, and my workouts would be around 1:15 to 1:30 long

I'm really thinking about doing something like this again, i feel HST might work for me because of this... i just seem to respond to frequent training better, maybe not in terms of strength, but definatly in terms of size!

However if i do it again i'd modify it, less sets/exercises so it would be shorter, and slightly less rest time. This is the plan...

Monday - Chest, Back, Abs
Tuesday - Rest
Wednesday - Shoulders, Arms, Legs
Thursday - Rest
Friday - Chest, Back, Abs
Sat - C.V.
Sun - Rest
Monday - Shoulders, Arms, Legs.......and so on

I'd switch the exercises about a lot, and every now and again throw in light sessions on the friday

anyone do a similar routine or have any advice??

i'm making no real size gains on my current split, and yes i'm eating a lot so now i'm getting a bit tubby... 6pack is shit right now, time to try something diff.

peace

Posted by: dakkylmi

The push/pull is a great routine. A good place to get info about this routine is Al's gym, his site gives you many routines and he has a email that you can use if you have any questions.

Posted by: rock4832

I really like Dante's Push/Pull routine so far! It's especially good for someone with tendon problems like me because your not constantly pounding them with overly heavy poundages.

Posted by: Tha Don

i'd rather do...
chest/back
shoulders/arms

instead of...
push
pull

as when i work chest and back together, my back exercises help stretch out my chest and vise-versa, keeping my body balanced and posture good etc... i also prefer doing my torso on the same day and my arms another day, personal prefrence

i don't see how push/pull would be as effective unless your cutting

peace

Posted by: P-funk

push pull is extrmely effective. You just need top make sure you set up your program accordingly. The same goes for total body. Both can work for anyone, as long as you know what you are doing and not just going into the gym, with no game plan, and moving weight around.

Posted by: rock4832

It seems to me that if you do Chest/Back, shoulders/arms- you end up hitting the same muscles back to back, whereas with Push/Pull your only hitting that muscle once. I think push/pull will give the 48-72hour time frame to recoup. But Chest/back, shoulders/arms doesn't.

Posted by: P-funk

put a day of legs inbtween the shoulders/arms and chest/back days and you are okay......really doesn't matter as long as you have the volume set up properly.

Posted by: dakkylmi

If you are trainning 7 day a week that is too much!! Rest is very important , you need time to recover if you want to make gains.

Posted by: rock4832

Quote:

Originally posted by P-funk
put a day of legs inbtween the shoulders/arms and chest/back days and you are okay......really doesn't matter as long as you have the volume set up properly.

Yeah, that would be good! Didn't even think of that

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally posted by dakkylmi
The push/pull is a great routine. A good place to get info about this routine is Al's gym, his site gives you many routines and he has a email that you can use if you have any questions.

who said to train 7 days a week?

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally posted by P-funk
put a day of legs inbtween the shoulders/arms and chest/back days and you are okay......really doesn't matter as long as you have the volume set up properly.

yes, that is the idea, i've been told its great for adding size although personally i have not tried it, a guy down my gym told me to do this, no doubt i will try it in the near future...

monday - chest/back
wednesday - legs
friday - shoulders/arms

i'm not a big fan of 3 days a week, do prefer 4 or 5 but i'm willing to try this routine, the principle of only working the upper body 2 days a week and allowing the rest of the week for recovery seems quite good, however i prefer frequent traning, but i will try it

i guess
mon - push
tue - pull
thurs - push
fri - pull.... might work assuming you could get the intesity in your workouts, if i did it i'd probably do legs on saturday to give myself a bit more time in the already jam-packed' push/pull workouts, i'd be willing to try this too!

theres just so much to try, HST, GVT, OVT, Push/Pull, 3 days splits... 4 day splits... i just can't decide what to do, i just assuming i have to take the trial and error approach then switch between the few that work best for me?

peace

Posted by: P-funk

you can do the pursh/legs/pull split on a three on one off routine. I have done it in the past. You need to lower the voume because everything is trained twice a week. I know a lot of powerlifters that only train total body workouts three times per week and they are no doubt bigger than anyone I have seen.

Posted by: Dante B.

What PF said.

I prefer push/pull at first, for many reasons, but after that, variety is good.

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Push/Pull split

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