Refeeds and Leptin [Forum Archive]

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Refeeds and Leptin

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Posted by: Jodi

Refeeds and Leptin

Refeeds are typically done while cutting; that is, creating a caloric deficit so your body is forced to rely on fat as an energy source. Most people on any low carb diet---i.e. less than 1 gram per pound of bodyweight per day----or implementing any extreme caloric deficit should incorporate a refeed.

Refeeds are used to raise Leptin, refill muscle and liver glycogen, as well as providing sanity release from dieting as your body is temporarily thrown into a state of metabolic balance. Please read Par Deus's first article on Leptin and its benefits:
http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/ma...D=51&issueID=3

A Quick, Layman’s Explanation of Leptin:

Leptin is considered an anti-starvation/metabolic balance hormone. As your Leptin levels decrease, the signal is sent to inform that your body is going into starvation mode. As your body goes into starvation mode we all know what happens---your fat loss slows down immensely or in some cases to a screeching halt. So in order to kick fat loss into gear again, you need to raise Leptin.

Common sense dictates that the body seeks balance, and if you endeavor to upset that balance---you have to outwit your body. We were built for survival, and unfortunately for the fitness/bodybuilding-oriented folk, “survival” didn’t mean 170 pounds of ripped mass at 6% bodyfat.

I can’t count have many people have asked this the question of why they lost fat after cheating. They have been so good and clean on their diets for weeks and results slowed down, they got frustrated, they cheated and 2 days later woke up lighter and leaner than before the cheat. Main reason right there, they raised Leptin. Raising Leptin levels will give your body the kick-start it needs for the next few days to keep you out of starvation mode as you diet. As long as your body is out of starvation mode, the faster the fat loss, and the less likely you are to lose LBM, while suffering on all counts in the process. Like I said above, this a brief explanation and there is so much info on Leptin so please read Par’s articles for a more detailed and scientific explanation.

Eat Your Way Out of Metabolic Hell

So, now you are probably thinking, "How do I increase Leptin?” Ready for this...........Eat lots of Carbs. I'm not necessarily talking slow burning carbs here either folks.

I know, most of you reading this right now are thinking

is she talking about? Simple explanation: The way to raise Leptin is to actually spill over into your fat cells.

Yes, I said it, SPILL OVER!! In order to fill your muscle glycogen you need carbs, once your glycogen stores are full, you are now spilling over into your fat cells. 1 Step Backwards for 2 Steps Forward. Remember folks you can't get fat in 1 day. This is not a new method of fat loss either. Bodybuilders are doing this everywhere and with fantastic results. A Refeed Day is NOT and I repeat NOT a cheat day. There are rules to this that should be followed to avoid gaining fat during the refeed

Typically a refeed is done every 4-5 days, although the frequency of the refeeds can be adjusted to suit the person. The lower the caloric deficit you've managed to create, and the lower your BF%, the more often you should refeed. Why? Because your leptin levels plummet as your calories drop and your bodyfat decreases; remember, we want to stay out of starvation mode.

How do you know when you should refeed more often, or less often? Unfortunately, it’s a personal process of trial and error; no two people are alike, and the general refeed plan is just that---general. If you find yourself constantly obsessed with food, and if you’re losing a significant amount of muscle and strength, you may have to refeed more often (perhaps every 2 to 3 days).

A refeed may also be shorter or longer in duration. For instance, some prefer to refeed for 24 hours, in which case they may consume anywhere from 25 to 50% above their maintenance caloric intake. For shorter refeeds, such as those that last for 6 to 10 hours, people often do not count their calories; rather, they pack down as much as they can within the designated time-frame to ensure that their fat cells have a hefty bag of new fuel to stoke the metabolic furnace with.

Appropriate Foods For a Refeed

During your refeed, you should aim for around 1G of protein per Pound of body weight, keeping your sources of fat to a minimum, so you are only taking the fats that are in your proteins and carbs. Now, here is the fun part: CARBS!

Yes, lots and lots and lots of carbs. Not necessarily brown rice, sweet potatoes and oats here either:

Bagels
Pasta
Rice
Bread
Cereal
FF/SF Ice Cream
Pancakes
Waffles
Crackers

Yes, all the things we crave

If its low fat or fat free, have at it! Remember, no additional fats.

You should keep fructose to a minimum though. Sticking to 50-100G [for fructose, probably lower, like 25%] for the day is plenty. Remember sucrose is 50% glucose and 50% fructose so seeing that we need to watch our fructose, staying away from sucrose (table sugar) is probably best. Yes, in order to elevate our levels of leptin, we want to spill over muscle, not liver glycogen.

Wrapping It Up---For Now

Now, don't bother stepping on the scale the next day---you will be heavier. Remember, carbs make you hold water but in a day or two it will be all gone and your body will burning fat like mad again.

Some of you being scared of other carb sources may opt to refeed with slow burning carbs and that's fine. Just keep in mind its going to take a hell of alot more oatmeal to raise Leptin than 1 bowl full, and if you’re doing a relatively short refeed, you may want to reconsider your food choices; a short refeed absolutely requires a drastic increase in your calories, as well as the consumption of refined carb sources.

The fiber in the slow burning carbs can be counter-productive when trying to raise leptin, that's why we use refined carbs. Refined carbs raise Leptin much quicker and you won't feel like a stuffed pig all day for having to eat 3C of oats to equal what 1 bagel could have done. And for those of you who are scared, it’s up to you to look at the entire picture, especially in light of how the body seeks balance. Then, if you truly understand the issue, you will no longer fear the calculated nature of a refeed, even if it requires you to consume those foods that are typically----at least in your mind----forbidden.

Anyone carb cycling does not need to follow this refeed. Reason being is because the carb cycling diet uses the High Carb days (every 2 days) to raise Leptin.

I plan on adding more to this as I go. This is just the beginning.

I'd like to thank Dante for his edit's to this write up.

Posted by: Monolith

Nice work!

RE: carb cycling... you say slow burning carbs arent as effective at raising leptin levels, which is why carb cycling uses "refeeds" every 2 days. Could the carb cycling diet be tweaked to use something like a high carb, no carb, low carb, no carb, high carb, and then use those "tastier" carbs on the high carb days?

Posted by: Jodi

I'm sure you could, anythings possible. However, I think it would disrupt the diet. During a refeed you are watching your protein and keeping fat low. During carb cycling your protein and fat remain consistant throughout, no matter what day your on.

That is my thought anyway, I would like to hear TP's thought as its his diet concepts and he know more about it than I.

Posted by: MeLo

Jodi, so refeed helps you to lose more fat,faster than if you stick to a strict diet 24/7? that would be good!

Posted by: atherjen

AWESOME outline of refeeds Jodi! Well put together I must say!

Posted by: donescobar2000

Quote:

Originally posted by MeLo
Jodi, so refeed helps you to lose more fat,faster than if you stick to a strict diet 24/7? that would be good!

Refeeds are taking a step back to move 2 steps forward. My cutting cycles include refeeds or carb ups. It really depends on what diet I am doing. 2.0 refeeds are more like a carb orgy. Excuse my french. I can easily consume 1400 grams of carbs.

Posted by: MeLo

1400 carbs???!?! that's 5600cals from carbs alone!

btw, im planning to lose 5 more lbs to make my bf% even lower. right now im on my first week. is it wise to implement the refeed on the first week?

Posted by: MeLo

btw... im only 15. i still can grow taller etc... should i incoperate a refeed more often and slash my calories by too much?

Posted by: MeLo

my stats are 15 year old male 6-0 170lbs

Posted by: Leslie

Are you doing a no/low carb diet?

Posted by: MeLo

no, im currently having at 1g of carbs per pound. I thought playing enudrance sports like basketball and its training 3 hours 4 times a week, i need more of them...

my schedule are : Monday:Practise/Gym(upper body)
:Tuesday: Plyometrics
: Wednesday: Practise/Gym(Leg)
: Thursday:Plyometrics
: Friday: Practise/Plyometrics
:Saturday: Practise/ Practise(Double training session)
:sunday: off

Posted by: Premo55

1g of carbs per pound of bw is still low carb. If you feel you're feeling lethargic in the gym, do a refeed once a week.

Peace.

Posted by: jetguy

Happy New Year Everyone;

Very new to this forum.

I have gone up and down in both weight and size throughout the years, went from 285 lbs and a 51 inch belt to 195 and 31 inches, BUT, with my schedule and all I went back to 270 and 43 inches.
My question is this, I started with Hydroxicut (I don't have an empty bottle for the correct spelling), and it worked wonders, the US stuff I picked up on overnighters that can't be bought here in Canada, Has anyone used the "Canadian" stuff and found good results?.
Time to start back on the road to health before the airline spends another bunch of money on a new uniform again (ha! ha!)

JetGuy

Posted by: TheGreatSatan

So I do a refeed how often per week? Is it based on how low carb you're doing? And how long is the refeed? One meal, 1 day or two?

Posted by: TheGreatSatan

Oh, and do I refeed on down days or does it matter?

Posted by: donescobar2000

What is your BF% and current weight. Also how much carbs are you ingesting per day?

Posted by: Jodi

If your energy is low and cravings are high, that is usually a good indication of your body requiring a refeed.

Posted by: TheGreatSatan

Quote:

Originally posted by donescobar2000
What is your BF% and current weight. Also how much carbs are you ingesting per day?

18%
221lbs
35 grams each day

Posted by: donescobar2000

How long do you run on 35 grams per day? Meaning in a week.

Posted by: TheGreatSatan

five days

Posted by: donescobar2000

on that 5th or 6th day you can go up to 1400 grams of carbs this assuming you are glycogen depleted. If you want to be safe I would probably cut it to lower. This is due to you BF%. Maybe go for 1000 grams or untill you are satisfied.

Posted by: TheGreatSatan

I assume clean carbs? Non sugar right?

Posted by: donescobar2000

Quote:

Originally posted by TheGreatSatan
I assume clean carbs? Non sugar right?

Anything that is lowfat. I would stay away from breads because all it will do is bloat you. Some is okay but not all bread. Sugar is fine. Just limit fructose (fruit and in some packaged food) to no more than 50 grams. Enjoy a box of cereal.

Posted by: TheGreatSatan

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

Posted by: donescobar2000

NP

Posted by: Jodi

Quote:

Originally posted by TheGreatSatan
I assume clean carbs? Non sugar right?

Please re-read this thread from the top

Posted by: Muscleparasite

Hey, on low carb days can I eat a high fat protein like sausage if my carbs are lower than 100 grams? I am carb cycling at 11%BF.

Posted by: TheGreatSatan

Yes. You'll just have to make sure you're burniing it up. On refeed days avoid the fat.

Posted by: nourisha

that's awesome info. hey check out this site [url]edit[url] it's new but it has some good info on it about health and fitness.

Posted by: KillerAbz

Thank you, I am printing this one out actually...

Posted by: KillerAbz

Posted by: Spottieottie

I just refed yesterday and I felt so fat. But today I feel great and ready to get back on track

Posted by: ecomcorp

thanks Judi this explains a lot to me, i have hit a plateau on carb cycle for a week - 9 day about now and i didn't understand why. But now i undersatnd thats it because i have scard of the high carb day i thought it would be smart to eat only moderate carbs on hight carb day , but now i know why it wasn't working.

i will try this new approach this time , hope it will work i am aiming for a nice six pack for my b-day it my b=day present to myself lol.

Posted by: pepito33

I ate more than 5000 kcals of carbs yesterday and I didn't feel stuffed nor satisfied ;( I stopped because I was eating like crazy, my stomach was like a bottomless pit

Am I a freak or what? Should I keep on doing these mega-refeeds, should I refeed more often or should I just control the beast that lies in me

BTW I'm on a 1500 kcal/day cutting diet (not taking into account fiber calories, so we could say it's about 1800 kcal/day). I'm thinking of keeping my refeeds at 3000 kcals, any thoughts on this?

Thanks a lot and see you around.

Posted by: patbuck

Here a good link explaining Leptin:
http://www.theministryoffitness.com/.../article18.htm

But there they say that Fructose is to be taken.

Quote:

Carbs should come from simple sources, e.g. Sucrose, Glucose, Fructose, Maltodextrin, etc.
Refilling liver glycogen is important during the refeed, so try to take some Fructose at each meal, e.g. Bananas, Grapes, Pineapple, Dried Apricots.

TIPS:
- For EFA's, just take some Flax (10-20ml) plus some Olive oil. The rest of your dietary fat will come from carbs.

- It is thought that fish oil supplementation reduces insulin secretion, so take no fish or fish oil on your refeed day(s).

- Take Zinc and Vitamin E supplements, as Zinc deficiencies are highly correlated with low peripheral and central leptin levels, also, supplementation of vit E in healthy individuals increased their plasma leptin levels. [2]

Posted by: KillerAbz

Hmm, in a zone...

Posted by: gabrielle9999

I'm a little new to this.... is there any type of diet to follow where refeeds can be done only when weak or having cravings? I don't know my bf

yet and eat a pretty balaced diet of carbs, calories, proteins, ect.

Posted by: Jodi

That sort of defeats the purpose. You want the refeeds before you become too weak because at that point you are probably already entering starvation mode. The point is to stay out of starvation mode so your doesn't think it dieting and therefore you burn fat faster.

Posted by: M.J.H.

Great article!

Posted by: mikah

Hi Jodi!! That is a fanastic article. Ive already recommended it to a few gals and they are incorporating refeeds with great results.

My question to you -
Me being 5'3 117 about 18% BF. Looking to lean but not really 'add' more muscle..I can handle a little, but Im pretty satisfied with the amount I already have.
I took a month off cutting after a long cut and probably a 10% BF loss.
Now Im back for the attack with this plan..
3 LO days (75 carbs) 1200-1400 cals
1 HIGH day (200 grams) about 1800 cals

#1 How is that? Should I eat refeed style , do you think..with higher GI carbs?

#3 Am I refeeding too often ??

Posted by: Jodi

Thanks Mikah

As your bodyfat lowers you need to refeed more often. If your energy levels are dropping then that could be a good sign you need to refeed more often. Just make sure its really your energy that is low and you are not just having carb cravings. It takes approx. 3 days for sugar cravings to go away.

A typical refeed is done with high gi carbs but if you are too nervous then stick with slow burning carbs instead.

Posted by: jaim91

How is it possible that refeed don't undo the good stuff you've already done by carb cycling?

Posted by: Pooloo

Question, would refeeding be an aid to someone who's skinny-fat? I'm 145lbs (down from 157, 5"7' male 22 yrs old) but still have fat on my stomach/sides of chest after doing a 1700 calories-a-day thing. I do weights for different muscle groups 3x times a week then cardio 3x a week (HIIT). I've tried alot of other things but have had no success getting rid of those last areas

Posted by: juggernaut

let me get this straight;

You're saying that it's okay to jack up the carbs in a major way for one day straight, as long as they are refined, low in fat and within a 10 to 12 hour time limit? Well, crank out the pancakes and maple syrup momma, cause here I come!!!!!!!

EVEN when I am dietng low carb, for a contest? This sounds to good to be true! Is it?

Posted by: Jag

hi all,

i'm so glad i came across this article. i read the "mind & muscle" version but got severely lost somewhere through the second paragraph.

this laymans version is much better & i thank you.

i'm an endo/meso bodytype & have a tendency to put on fat quickly. all info i've read says low calories & lots of cardio

but right now i'm eating low carb for 3 days with lots of protein, healthy fats & platefuls of fibrous veges.

this is fantastic for me. i'm dropping bodyfat slowly & i'm not hungry.

the fourth day i eat high G.I. for the whole day with very lean proteins thrown in to meet requirements.

results are the best i've had with any diet.

Jag

Posted by: Jodi

I'm glad the article helped you

Good luck on your plan!

Posted by: sara

No additional fats? No Nuts??

Posted by: Jag

Quote:

Originally Posted by sara

No additional fats? No Nuts??

sara,

if your question is directed to me then No, i try & exclude all fats on the refeed day.
sometimes i might get it in the form of burgers or fries but i found what worked best for me was really high G.I. sugary foods.

i love the chocolate & snack aisles of the supermarket on refeed days. i can eat 2,000 calories just walking from one end to the other.

Jag

Posted by: sara

Choclates contain fat

Posted by: Jag

Quote:

Originally Posted by sara

Choclates contain fat

my most humble apologies to all.

turns out that i DO have fats on my refeed day.....doh!!!!

Jag

Posted by: jaim91

If you didn't know chocolate had fat in it, you have bigger problems, lol.

Posted by: joey2005

i heard jodi says if you are not feeling weak,hungry,need energy while workout...then refeed is not neccesary...?

Posted by: sara

Depends on your goal

Posted by: mkmadsen

would a refeed, if it were done twce a week (every 3-4 days) be more beneficial as one meal in the day or throughout the day? Would it be best at night or during the earlier part of the day? Also, Jodi, you mentioned that foods such as rice and sweet potato are the carbs needed for a refeed, but those are more of on the low GI scale, what kind of foods are best for a refeed? Thanks for any help!

Matt

Posted by: Jodi

I think you need to re-read the article.

I said brown rice and sweet pototaes should not be used for a refeed. Also, a full day refeed is more beneficial than a carb up. You can't replace glycogen or raise leptin in one carb up meal.

Posted by: mkmadsen

Thanks, I read that part wrong

Posted by: Ozz

Ok I have read this article from top to bottom but I am still sketcky when you refer to:

"You should keep fructose to a minimum though. Sticking to 50-100G [for fructose, probably lower, like 25%] for the day is plenty. Remember sucrose is 50% glucose and 50% fructose so seeing that we need to watch our fructose, staying away from sucrose (table sugar) is probably best. Yes, in order to elevate our levels of leptin, we want to spill over muscle, not liver glycogen."

I am guessing this is in some way of gauging the amount of carbs you are to consume. I am currently on the 40-30-30 diet my weight is 185lbs height 5-10 dont know my bf. I was wanting to know the amount of carbs I need to consume on these refeed days.

Posted by: Jodi

You don't need to know. Its a refeed day. Eat!

Posted by: thatguy

If we're eating 1-1.5 g of carbs per lb of body weight every day while cutting, we most likely won't need a refeed, correct?

Posted by: Jodi

Most people won't need a refeed correct. However, the leaner you get the more often you need to refeed and if you are really lean, then you should incorporate a refeed.

Posted by: thatguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodi

Most people won't need a refeed correct. However, the leaner you get the more often you need to refeed and if you are really lean, then you should incorporate a refeed.

By "really lean", do you mean 5-7% BF?

Posted by: Jodi

Close to competition lean.

Posted by: jaim91

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodi

As your bodyfat lowers you need to refeed more often.

why?

Posted by: SJA

Because your leptin levels degrade over time while dieting. You need to revive them or you will begin to catabolize muscle. Keep in mind that everyone has different refeed timing and amounts. You need to experiment.

Posted by: jaim91

So essentially, what is more effective, carb cycling, or refeeding every 4 days?

Posted by: Achilles

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaim91

So essentially, what is more effective, carb cycling, or refeeding every 4 days?

It depends on what for diet your on

Posted by: jaim91

If you're on a normal 2500 calorie a day diet with about 45% coming from carbs, 40 from protein and 15 from fat

Posted by: MeLo

quick refeed question.

Many people say the count their calories when they do a refeed, while many here says they don't.

What are you take on this?

Second, a person with 8-9% bodyfat looking to get leaner, what would be a appropable refeed frequency.

Posted by: Jodi

Sorry - I just saw this

The goal is to spill over your glycogen. This will raise leptin and refill your glycogen stores so no, counting is pointless.

An appropriate refeed is to keep your fats as low as possible and on this one day even skip your EFA's - just get plenty of carbs. When I'm dieting and using refeeds, I do 50% complex and 50% simple carbs.

Posted by: cpush

Jodi, when you refeed, what total % of your calories are coming from carbs?

Posted by: Jodi

I don't count. It's pointless to as your goal is to overfeed anyway. I just make sure I get appox. 1G protein per lb of bodyweight and keep the fat low and then eat carbs.......alot of carbs.

Posted by: FranktheTank

by simple you mean the carbs we all like to eat?

Posted by: Emma-Leigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by FranktheTank

by simple you mean the carbs we all like to eat?

Yup - as long as it is low fat and relatively low in fructose (you need some fructose on a re-feed, but not a lot - and you want to keep it under about 50g) then you can eat up...

So things like kiddy cereal, FF bagels, breads, FF waffles, FF pancakes, FF muffins, FF biscuits, FF ice-creams, pasta, white (or brown if you want) rice, oats etc etc... All good re-feed foods.

Posted by: FranktheTank

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

Mmm sounds good to me. Would I be able to eat these on a high carb day as well, or only if I am doing a refeed? Cause Emma you know Im currently Carb cycling.

Posted by: Jodi

No, I wouldn't do this on high carb days while carb cycling. This is mainly for people that do keto style diets.

Posted by: Moses

Hi Jody

I just want to clarify the difference between refeeding and carb cycling high days:

From what I read, if the carb content on days are around the 25% cal intake range, it does not qualify for a "re-feed" as described above. Rather there should be a carb high day with the standard complex carbs (oatmeal, brown rice etc at 50% or so). If the carb content on regular days are extremely low (to the ketogenic stage) then you should refeed as described in your original post. Is that correct?

Also, with the refeed, should any adjustments be made to the exercise schedule? Does it really matter what day / workout the refeed lands on? I am referring to a week schedule of both cardio and resistance training and an off day.

Lastly, in one of Twin Peak's posts, he refers to a supplement LeptiGen (http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/pr...p?productID=5). Any comments about this supplement?

Thanks!!

Moses

Posted by: Jodi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moses

From what I read, if the carb content on days are around the 25% cal intake range, it does not qualify for a "re-feed" as described above. Rather there should be a carb high day with the standard complex carbs (oatmeal, brown rice etc at 50% or so). If the carb content on regular days are extremely low (to the ketogenic stage) then you should refeed as described in your original post. Is that correct?

Yes, this is positively correct

Good job.

Quote:

Also, with the refeed, should any adjustments be made to the exercise schedule? Does it really matter what day / workout the refeed lands on? I am referring to a week schedule of both cardio and resistance training and an off day.

Some people like to workout on refeeds in hopes to help keep fat gain to a low. However, personally, I like to workout the next day because that is when I have the most energy.

and the best workouts.

Quote:

Lastly, in one of Twin Peak's posts, he refers to a supplement LeptiGen (http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/pr...p?productID=5). Any comments about this supplement?

I used this supplement. It's a supplement that you don't actually notice effects from until the end of your cut. However, during cutting, Leptigen is great from keeping hunger pangs away!

A good thing while cutting.

Posted by: Thunder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodi

No, I wouldn't do this on high carb days while carb cycling. This is mainly for people that do keto style diets.

Refeeds are just for keto diets?

Posted by: Jodi

Did you read my article?

People on low carb diets and keto diets.

Posted by: Thunder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodi

Did you read my article?

People on low carb diets and keto diets.

No

What if someone is on a moderate carb diet but low cals? Would you suggest them in that case?

Posted by: Moses

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodi

Some people like to workout on refeeds in hopes to help keep fat gain to a low. However, personally, I like to workout the next day because that is when I have the most energy.

and the best workouts.

Hi Jodi

Thanks for the quick response!!

It seems like its a personal preference for the high carb day or refeed whether the workout is on that day or after. However, I am assuming that most people refer to "workout" as resistance training. What if the workout that day is a cardio session? Will having a high carb day on a cardio day be ineffective? or does it matter?

I'm not sure if it makes a difference but I currently do my cardio in a fasted state early AM with my 1st meal 1 hour after. If this would be my high carb day, I would be also at 5% below my maintenance cal intake. Normally I am at 30% below. I'm not sure if by doing intense cardio, the high carb day's effectiveness will be reduced. Again, fat loss is my primary goal.

Thanks!!

Moses

Edit: I should note that I am also doing my resistance training in the morning also in a fasted state (with small dose of protien right after workout, and complete meal 30 mins after). However, after reading many carb cycling articles, they suggest that a high carb meal both *precede* and follow the resistance workout. Would you also suggest this to make the most out of a "high" day as the next day to follow could possibly be cardio, then an off day (for ex. Fri - high carb/weights, sat - lowcarb/cardio , sun low/carb-off...3:1 cycle)

Posted by: Jodi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder

No

What if someone is on a moderate carb diet but low cals? Would you suggest them in that case?

Maybe you should read it.

I would suggest them to increase their cals, not have a refeed. Someone that has been on a low calorie diet for a while can't expect to just have a surge of calories, from a refeed or for that matter even a huge increase in calories, and not expect to have not gained fat. Low calorie diets are not the way to diet.

Posted by: Jodi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moses

You are getting too anal

It's your choice. Try it out all ways and do what works best for you.

Posted by: Moses

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodi

You are getting too anal

It's your choice. Try it out all ways and do what works best for you.

Haha

Very true. Master the basics then the details they say. Ill do just that, try it out all ways!

Thanks!

Moses

Posted by: Thunder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodi

Ok, my use of the word low was not appropriate. I'm aware that low cal diets are not the way to diet, although I don't believe someone can get fat in one day regardless of circumstances.

Guess I don't see why a refeed can't be used on a moderate carb diet. Then again, my use of the term 'moderate' is rather ambiguous. I'll give it a read.

Edit - well written.

Posted by: FranktheTank

quick question for high carb days....

i always have plain oatmeal on my low days and was wondering if having maple and brown sugar oatmeal on my high days is bad?

also, basically i can have the carbs i want on high days (except bread) as long as it does not have high fructose corn syrup in it or a lot of carbs coming from sugar right..?

Posted by: jillybean

So long story short I have severe reactions to sugar these days. It started soon after my 2nd baby-with caffeine-now sugar. After winding up in the hospital for a 'panic attack' I gave up all stimulants-now my dr. says I have to give up sugar due to its effects on my heart/body. So low carb looks like the way to go for me-I've just started today. So my question is-how will I have energy to exercise be it running or weight training? What carbs can I eat and when-I'm all confused but I realize I can't eat sugar anymore-so I've discovered stevia for when I get a sweet tooth--also if I do have fruit I have to combine it with protein/fat-like apples with peanut butter-sugarfree ofcourse! Any input would be appreciated--also I can't take any suppliments due to the stimulation effects on my body which lead to my 'panic attacks'-I don't think they're panic attacks but I just think it's my body rejecting the stimulants be it caffeine or sugar.

Posted by: MeLo

welcome to IM jillybean.

Firstly, you dont need stimulants on a cut. You need to avoid sugar because of your condition, however, that shouldnt stop you from eating complex carbohydrates.

The list of apporpable carbohydrates can be found in the sticky in the nutritin forum.

Keep avoding caffiene and sugar since your body doesnt need them to survive anyway.

For your refeed, eat complex carbohydrates too. You may need to refeed for a longer time.

Unless you are 200lbs or more, i would start with 250g of carbs to start with. Don't jump into a keto/low carb, you will not be able to stick to it.

From 250g/day, you can cut calories slowly...going down to 200g will give you another deficit of 200 calories when you plateau. Until you are eating less than 1g per pound of bw, i would stick with have a couple of cheat meals(2) a week.

Maybe you dont have a choice of dessert becasue of the sugar. Still, a moderate serving of pizzas(about 4 large slices per cheat meal) looks good.

Posted by: Jodi

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillybean

So long story short I have severe reactions to sugar these days. It started soon after my 2nd baby-with caffeine-now sugar. After winding up in the hospital for a 'panic attack' I gave up all stimulants-now my dr. says I have to give up sugar due to its effects on my heart/body. So low carb looks like the way to go for me-I've just started today. So my question is-how will I have energy to exercise be it running or weight training? What carbs can I eat and when-I'm all confused but I realize I can't eat sugar anymore-so I've discovered stevia for when I get a sweet tooth--also if I do have fruit I have to combine it with protein/fat-like apples with peanut butter-sugarfree ofcourse! Any input would be appreciated--also I can't take any suppliments due to the stimulation effects on my body which lead to my 'panic attacks'-I don't think they're panic attacks but I just think it's my body rejecting the stimulants be it caffeine or sugar.

Actually, I think refeeding is a bit advanced for you right now. First you need to develop a healthy diet and get sugar out of your diet. I would suggest starting here

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...ad.php?t=21113

Posted by: jillybean

Thanks you guys for replying. I plan to avoid sugar which kinda sucks and kinda doesn't. I grew up on sugar-always binged on it-as a skinny kid and thin adult now I had no reason to stop-but now I do and since now I have 2 kids under 3, I have to take it seriously. I really want to start working out and eating healthy-but low carb since I do and feel so much better when I do. I'm glad I can still eat whole grain oatmeal! I can't eat breads so much as they affect the way I feel. But I do plan on never giving up pizza-after all I'm a NYer!! But I think I'll go 4 days without pizza/breads-then as a 're feed' day I'll have my pizza! Something to look forward to. But now I will dedicate myself to working out-I used to run a lot but stopped due to knee problems-will start lifting weights again and speed walking. I do Billy Blanks Ultimate Boot Camp dvd-have any of you tried it-cardio/weights all in one-awesome! Nice to meet you all!!

Posted by: jillybean

Hey all-Merry Christmas--or to be more politically correct, Happy Holidays!! Anyway I mostly stayed away from sugar today although did manage to have a handful of m&m's and 1 cookie--the other cookies I made were whole grain oatmeal raisin without sugar but with Stevia-ever hear of it-very sweet and all natural sugar substitute. So my question is-I have lots and lots of carbs today and plan on going low carb tomorrow and for abt 3 days and then have some carbs-then repeat that cycle-well I also started running again today-did 5 miles and want to continue so I can run a marathon in May and the NYC marathon in Nov.--what shd I eat in order to have energy to run and train? Low carb-doesn't that mean low energy? Chat soon!

Posted by: jasonwilks

lots of cool info in this thread, thanks!

Posted by: msunid83

I've been using TP's CC for a while now and I really enjoy it. In the future I would consider dong some type of refeed diet to switch it up however. So inbetween refeed days I would essentially do low carb days on my workouts and no carb days on my rest days and eventually refeed (3-4 days)? Or should I make my workout days even less that 1g/lbs BW? Thanks.

Posted by: BigDyl

What about leptigen by avant labs. Would that replace this refeed day?

Posted by: Emma-Leigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDyl

What about leptigen by avant labs. Would that replace this refeed day?

No.

Posted by: pinkinmiami

First of all hello to everyone.

I'm new to the forum and I haven't been able to tear myself away from reading your threads since I created my account this afternoon - there's so much great information here. I'm looking forward to putting a lot of this to work for me.

WTG!

Posted by: Afroninja

Hi All

Im around 23 stone at the moment, and have been for at least the last 5 years or so. My maintenance calorie intake should apparently be around 3800 per day. However for the last 7 months ive only been consuming around 1500 or so per day. Even in the last 5 years theres no way ive ever got anywhere near that 3800 a day level. Even with a fair amount of cardio (walking, badminton, cycling etc) ive lost virtually nothing over the last 7 months. I dont eat any sweets, crisps, ice cream, tea, coffee etc and never really have done as i dont have a sweet tooth at all.

Now, after finding this leptin link (to me anyway) it may explain a hell of a lot about my situation. Is it possible that ive created auch a calorie deficit that ive been in perma-starvation mode for at least the last 7 months (and possibly a lot longer)?

If this is the case, would this refeed plan get my body out of starvation mode and start actually burning the fat off for once? Or does someone my size need to look at a completely different approach?

Thanks for reading.
Ian

Posted by: msunid83

you should find your maintenence level and go for a less drastic caloric deficit that provides slow and steady weight loss of about 1-2 lbs per week. it is possible that you have been in starvation mode, but I highly doubt that you wouldn't loose weight if you actually were eating only 1500 calories per day. Make sure you are anal as hell at least at first when counting calories to be sure you are actually on the right track. Don't just guess. If you eventually get down to a lower BF % and are having trouble with plateaus then refeeds can be helpful. Good Luck

Posted by: Double D

Thats a fantastic post.

Posted by: Afroninja

Thanks for the reply, however no-one ever seems to believe that i only eat 1500 a day.

Breakfast is either a couple of crumpets at 215 cals, or branflakes with semi-skimmed milk (250 cals) or a ham omelette (240 cals). I have a couple of wholemeal pittas during the day, one at 11am and one at 2pm. One plain pitta is 144 calories, 4 slices of ham is 44 calories, or half a tin of tuna is 110 cals. So one pitta is at most 254 calories, plus whatever is contained in a tomato/lettuce and cucumber. Snack when i get in at 5pm consisting of either some seafood sticks (160 cals) or banana/apple (200 cals) and then dinnner at 8pm is 150g lean mince (200 cals) and a tomato based sauce (40 cals max).

So add that lot up and its actually less than 1500. Im not doing this on guesswork (what use would that be?) . Never snack during the day and only ever drink water. So unless 5 litres of water adds up to 3000 cals a day, i cant explain why the weight wont shift.

Posted by: Jodi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afroninja

Hi All

Im around 23 stone at the moment, and have been for at least the last 5 years or so. My maintenance calorie intake should apparently be around 3800 per day. However for the last 7 months ive only been consuming around 1500 or so per day. Even in the last 5 years theres no way ive ever got anywhere near that 3800 a day level. Even with a fair amount of cardio (walking, badminton, cycling etc) ive lost virtually nothing over the last 7 months. I dont eat any sweets, crisps, ice cream, tea, coffee etc and never really have done as i dont have a sweet tooth at all.

Now, after finding this leptin link (to me anyway) it may explain a hell of a lot about my situation. Is it possible that ive created auch a calorie deficit that ive been in perma-starvation mode for at least the last 7 months (and possibly a lot longer)?

If this is the case, would this refeed plan get my body out of starvation mode and start actually burning the fat off for once? Or does someone my size need to look at a completely different approach?

Thanks for reading.
Ian

Can you tell me all your stats? Age, weight in pounds

, height and what your meals at 1500 cals look like now.

Posted by: Afroninja

Im 29 years old, around 6 ft tall and 23 stone converts into 322 pounds. My meals are been described in greater detail in the post above yours

Most calorie websites suggest my maintenance level is around 3400-3800. The one linked to on this site actually thinks it should be 5000

There is no way ive gone anywhere 3500 a day for the last 5 years (at least). And 7 months of 1500 a day along with exercise has lost virtually nothing whatsoever. This is why i think i may need to kick my metabolism in the nads

Either through this refeeding, or simply increasing how much i eat a day.

Cheers
Ian

Posted by: drew_c

Great thread

Posted by: SpeedyReedy5

Great Post Jodi would you suggest a lo/no carb diet?

www.allthewhey.com
Discount code "Rob05"

Posted by: drew_c

Well I said it was a great thread awhile ago but now I'm finally going to try implementing this technique into my diet routine. Been hanging around a 155-160lb plateau for awhile now. BF is roughly 12% and I've been averaging a bit less than 1g per 1lb of body weight (carbs, probably 85%-95% "clean) for probably a year, though my BF % has dropped quite drastically in that year (due to moderate carbs/calorie restriction/cardio/resistance). Hopefully this will give me the boost I've been searching for. And the cereal I'm going to eat will be a nice change of pace, once a week or so, pending results that is.

I have recently increased the frequency and intensity of my resistance training and that has led me to feeling a lack of energy and drive so I'm hoping this is a solution to that. I kept my same lower carb diet in place as I increased my workouts so I'm really thinking I might have a Leptin issue.

The only problem is that I have done random carb spiking in the past (just due to cravings and lack of energy) and have found it quite hard to have any type of effective cardio session on the same day. I just tend to feel like sitting around and being fat and lazy for a day.

Thanks again

Posted by: Double D

Jodi are refeeds really necessary if you are incorporating cheat meals every 5th day or so? Please tell me I didnt overlook that?!?!

Posted by: Mista

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double D

Jodi are refeeds really necessary if you are incorporating cheat meals every 5th day or so? Please tell me I didnt overlook that?!?!

Personally I think you would be ok if your cheat is high carbs. And your not doing really low-no carbs on all days

Posted by: Jodi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double D

Jodi are refeeds really necessary if you are incorporating cheat meals every 5th day or so? Please tell me I didnt overlook that?!?!

That depends on how many grams of carbs you are talking.....

Posted by: Double D

Hum......taking in throughout the entire day? If so its around 100-120. Very low.

Posted by: Jodi

I meant how many carbs on your cheat meal days

Posted by: Double D

Hum.....very good question. I truely dont know. I normally dont go crazy, but I do get full. If I have pizza its like 3-4 pieces. And pizza is my fav so its the norm.

Posted by: P-funk

why pizza? You should be trying to keep your fat down when you are pounding in carbs like that.

Posted by: Double D

Yeah I know P, but I dont incorporate refeeds, but rather cheat meals. I was thinking of starting refeeds and kicking the cheat meals.

Posted by: Jodi

Depends on your goals DD.

You can still have a refeed thats a semi-cheat meal too. For instance, breakfast, have bagels or pancakes or waffles. Dinner go to an italian place and have pasta. Just watch the fat.

Posted by: Blooming Lotus

Quote:

Originally Posted by patbuck

Here a good link explaining Leptin:
http://www.theministryoffitness.com/.../article18.htm

But there they say that Fructose is to be taken.

Hey Jodi?..?..
Really good article.
It seems that alot of different ppl are approaching refeeds differently here although, after reading both the sausage and pizza questions, with the above post, it seems like the refeed is about creating a certain... bowel and intestine tract glyucal viscosity... like a syrupy consistency for a glyco reload and speedy bowel thing which would also do the other leptin thing right?. Would that be true to say?
I do sausages to refeed myself. .. sometimes alone .. like a whole pack in 24 hrs or one serve with bread ( and white is sometimes better would you believe) if I can do a no -sugar cordial or something .. It kind of comes down like a creatine I guess.( after it kills me trying to get rid of it from my body).
Long story short, have hep c. dying. too many carbs or fat and I'm trouble. tiny. Looking at b.b. at a bigger weight than I've maintained most my life and thinking creatine/ glutamine combo with maybe yam as my main other carb source. Sometimes I can get away with wholemeal bread ( either dry and seperate or with butter/ low sodium tomatoe sauce and with or without lettuce and no fat cheese or my plainold eggwhite and no fat milk sog that I love so much or something..maybe with vegimite and or tomatoe..peas and corn ).. or sometimes I just do a hell oily lamb or fattyrump juust for the fat(

) or I eat it raw nearly and think that itt kinda glyucs up thesamish with some consensed fruit..
So question is.. If I stay on a long term competition diet pace low carb and bring in some yams and glutamine / creatine and flat taurine hits 2x per refeed cycle.. can you see off the top of your head why that wouldn't work to keep me gaining ?Anyone??

Posted by: ivesy191

incorporate a refeed even if say ive been on a 40/40/20 diet consuming consistant 246 grams of carbs a day with ralatively low body fat.

Posted by: Blooming Lotus

I thought the idea was to use it to change gears in your metabolism aas part of your regular eating regime regardless of what else was going on?

Posted by: KingCarnage

I have a very high metabolism, i'm what a lot of people call a hard gainer.

At 24 i'm the biggest i've ever been, 155 pounds, but I cannot physically eat enough to balance out my calorie burning. I would not mind having some fat on me as I built muscle but I cant get it to form.

I am currently attempting 5 meals a day with a total of 3500 calories but one meal may take me over 3 hours to force down. Food quickly becomes disgusting to me and I cant even swallow though I know i have stomache room.

In short I think I have too much Leptin naturally and I want to decrease it or increase my resistance to it. Do you find this adviseable and how can it be done?
Every article on the topic talks about increasing leptin which I feel would only hurt me.

Any info or tips would be apprecieated. thanks.

Posted by: xonlythestrongx

good idea with the refeed

Posted by: Daladas

my maintenance level is around 2300cals. Lets say i reduce cals to about 1500 with no carbs as humanly possible for a period of 3 to 5 days while consuming 1-1.5g protein per pound. would the refeed day help? compared to a clean carb up

Posted by: Biggly

Kingcarnage, get yourself a large bag of peanuts and nibble em all day. That's about 2500 calories right there...

Posted by: masonstorm

Hi guys,

I am currently around 4-5% BF 5"8 170lbs. I'm on a TKD diet 6days/week of intense workout (HIT etc) and hitting somewhere close to 1750 cals a day with 30 low GI Pre and 57 High Gi/more complex mix from Universal Torrent.

I am incorporating refeed days on saturdays and a cheat meal post workout on tuesday night just for sanity (mostly nutella on half a white bread...No fries or anything...Bloat hell...) and boosting leptin a little (i know a single meal won't do much though).

i was wondering the Fat limit you're talking about for the refeed day. Cause Pancakes waffles and biscuits here in belgium are not really fat free (close to 15-20% fat) usually and FF food is pretty hard to get here except those diet stuff

so my goal is to limit myself to that 20% limit. DO you think that's way over the top for a whole refeed day?

Posted by: Biggly

Not at all, the only thing you really need is the carbs and calories. You don't need to increase your fat intake. The idea is to trigger your body into storing a little fat by overdoing the carbs, just enough to fool it into thinking there's no starvation issue.

Either that or I'm misreading your question?

B.

Posted by: masonstorm

No you got it right. I do understand the concept. I am not increasing the fat on purpose, it's just a matter of food choices for the refeed. Usually in the week the macros are 50% prot 40% Fish/olive oil fats and 10% carbs (aimed at the workout timeframe).
Since the refeed foods you mention are all FF sources, i was guessing to stay under some 70% C 20-25% prot 5-10% F
I went to the supermarket and bought a whole lot of carbs for the next refeed and managed to stay under the 10-15% fat limit so I guess it will be perfect! Pancakes/cereals/processed bread/baked chips/basmati etc. two full bags right there..I can"t imagine everything going in...

Would drinking a couple of tablespoons of vegetable glycerine help carb assimilation? I read an article on T-nation about a precontest carbup

Posted by: heliboy

Nice guide dude. Thanks for writing it.
__________________

Posted by: nickfromgeo

Did I understand it correctly?

If I use cutting diet, in every 4-5 day I must eat much more carbs?

Posted by: Biggly

That's about it, just to trick your body into thinking that carbs are available.

B.

Posted by: Lacoste

Hello all! I started dieting a while back, and mixed with exercise, lost about 15 pounds. I am now 5'9" 143 pounds. I just started lifting weights a bit over a week ago, and became more interested in improving my diet. My goal is to eventually burn off the extra fat around my lower abdominals, and get that six-pack popping.

I posted my diet here 2 days ago, and realized I was eating too many carbs, and very low fat (but very sufficient protein). All of the carbs I eat are low GI though (whole-wheat breads, bran cereal, berry fruits, whole-wheat pasta). I recently started a diet that is much lower in carbs, substituting whole-wheat turkey breast sandwiches with canned tuna (no bread), and substituting all-bran cereal with eggs.

Do I need to be refeeding too? I love the idea of one day a week of lots of hi GI carbs, and generally speaking I already eat very low fats. Enlighten me

Posted by: rassivo

good article dude!!!thanks for sharing with us!!

Posted by: Biggly

Lacoste - no, generally you do not need to refeed on the diet you describe.

The general idea is that you trick your body into NOT thinking there is a major carb shortage. This prevents your body doing the various things it does which would nullify that.

As soon as you've tricked your body into thinking carbs are plentiful, you starve it of carbs again.

You on the other hand have simply reduced your carbs, which is generally a good thing, but refeeding would serve no great purpose. Your body is not responding to a lack of carbs because you're already eating some. It's only when you go seriously low or cut carbs altogether you need to refeed.

Hope that helps.

Rassivo - Please contribute a bit more to the conversation or resist the impulse to post.

B.

Posted by: massage101

lactose intolerance could effect the way milk is digested as well whey protein help me allot lol

Posted by: Skib

these refeeds are going to take some getting used to... i've been cutting for a while and it's been going fairly well but this past week i've really dropped the cals and carbs and after 7 days of strict eating i was starting to feel really sluggish, lethargic and craving carbs like mad so last night i decided it was time to do a refeed... i smoked a little bit of pot for some inspiration and got a big bowl of linguine chicken alfredo into me, followed by some PB and jam on half a pita, followed by a decent size bowl of mini wheats, then a bowl of vector and finally a bowl of oatmeal crisp... i went against jodi's advice and stepped on the scale this morning and was a couple pounds heavier but wow, i feel like crap! i feel like i just threw my entire last weeks progress out the window! haha

hopefully i've got some more energy over the next few days and see the fat loss accelerate again!

one thing i'm confused about is some people (jodi) say you want to go over your maintenance cals but other people say if you're cutting you still want to maintain the deficit but just swap fat cals for carb cals... which one is it? cause i definitely did not maintain my caloric deficit last night :P

Posted by: Biggly

Weight alone is not the issue, which is exactly why not jumping on the scales is advised when doing this.

Look in the mirror instead, get your tape measure out, check your 1RM - but ignore the scales because yes, they WILL show a big difference when you refeed, most of which is water, not fat.

B.

Posted by: masonstorm

don't worry about the weight gain, carbs pull 2.7g of water inside a muscle cell. I hardly see a spillover happening with only a few hours of carbing (I hardly see your diet to be in jeopardy with only a few hours of junk eating).
just avoid HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) or other sources of fructose for a refeed in excess (although in the beginning of the day fruits are okay because it helps stabilise glucolytic enzymes, aka the absorption of the rest without turning the excess carbs into fat)

Also the whole point is not only to put leptin levels high but also to kick your thyroid production because days and weeks of recstriction make the t3 levels to plummet and the metabolism to slow down.

as a side note, one other thing i found to be effective as hell when i crave carbs, or junk food: 1gm of metformin hcl (glucophage), no weight change at all, no bloat, nothing. Just on occasion. But this is another story since i found a study that showed that metformin ingestion blunted the leptin response to eating (as well as insulin).

when the hormone environment is adequate, fat loss is greater than ever.

Posted by: Skib

i felt so disgusting i skipped breakfast this morning haha... i was actually still too full to eat anyways... i'm back on track now though and am heading to the gym shortly... hopefully i notice some more energy tonight... nobody's answered my Q about what to shoot for calorie wise on refeed days... eat above, below or at maintenance?

Posted by: Skib

these refeeds definitely work... i stuffed my face with carbs the other night and felt like shit the next day but 2 days later i'm back down to the weight i was at (not that weight matters that much) and look and feel tight and am energized again!

Posted by: Biggly

There ya go

Regarding calories, surely it's here on the thread somewhere earlier?

Anyway, regardless of what you're 'meant' to do, I generally suggest aiming noticably above normal maintenance for the refeed itself. The whole idea is to blunt the body's natural responses by convincing it there's no shortage, even a surplus, right? So the last thing you need is an actual shortage.

It's not a re-nibble, it's a re-feed, sorta thing.

B.

Posted by: Skib

what i'm stuck on is the whole concept of needing to create a 3500 calorie deficit per week in order to lose a pound of fat... if i'm eating well above maintenance calories once a week or even more often than that for my refeed how is it that i'm going to see fat loss?

Posted by: Biggly

Your body burns the fat during the week, due to the absence of handy carbs. However beyond a certain point it will dig in and find alternatives, hormones go crazy etc. The refeed is just to prevent that happening so you can continue burning fat.

Remember the very act of digging fat from within the cells and converting it back to fuel is itself going to burn a few cals along with various other subtle effects (such as exercising!). Bottom line this cycle forces your bod to actually dig that fat out and burn it - so your main aim is just to not let those fat cells fill up again. That's not gonna happen on one day of eating carbs with a body already starved of carbs.

If you haven't, and I know it's kinnda long, I'd suggest re-reading the thread from the beginning because I think it's all pretty much explained in there.

B.

Posted by: Skib

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggly

If you haven't, and I know it's kinnda long, I'd suggest re-reading the thread from the beginning because I think it's all pretty much explained in there.

No, I probably will, I find the whole refeed concept very interesting. Thanks for you input Big.

I know a refeed day is slightly different than a cheat day, but to scarf down all those carbs feels like a cheat day to me. I don't overly crave saturated fat, so if I can break the low carb insanity by stuff my face with a bunch of carbs then that's perfect!

Posted by: Biggly

Then you're gonna love it

Posted by: itsmeinshape

exactly

Posted by: samadamsboyee

Might have to try this concept

Posted by: thorough

hello ive read this thread alot lately.
im 155(LBM about 140) pounds at 5'11'' and have reached a plateau in my weight loss in the last couple months. i still have some fat on my midsection and lovehandles. when they used the machine it said i had 6% bodyfat but i know those arent acurate so i would say im closer to 10%
tried my first real refeed today. how the hell do you get 1200 grams of these in a 5 hour period? today ive ate 2 bowls of raison brain at about 100 grams. another 50 grams from wheat thins. a whole bag of low fat tortilla chips with salsa which was close to 200 grams. i then had low sugar low fat ice cream which was only another 100 grams max. thats only 450 grams which is at least 4x my normal daily carbs. its only been 7 hours and im going to store to see what carb dense foods will get me closer.
any more carb dense foods i could eat that wont fill me up as much?

Posted by: masonstorm

I don't think you need as much as 1200 grams to refeed or get the effect on leptin and thyroid stimulation. how come guys like toney freeman or other pros carb up with no more than 600 a day of carbs.

you can get 1200 grams in 48 hours which is much more viable and reasonnable. I did have a couple of months ago 1000 grams in one day but this is overkill. I'm over 185 for 5'8 and my BF is close to 5 right now. I am most of the time in mild to strong keto (ketostix 3/day to check) I workout everyday and I don't think I need carbs even though I have 1h of cardio/day.

there's a really nice read from t-nation you can have about the difference between refeed, loading and cheating maybe this helps.

I don't think 1200 is something to shoot no matter your size.

T-Nation.com | 5 Reasons for Failed Body Transformations

maybe this helps
M

Posted by: thorough

^thanks. i got that number from an article i found here My Journey 2008: Refeeds and Cheat (Free) Meals
it was refering to a 24 hour period actually. my bad

i actually got up about 600 grams yesterday. i cant believe how much stuff i ate!

Posted by: Skib

how long should one wait to do their first refeed once they've started cutting?

Posted by: tucker01

Depends on level of body fat, and how low your calories/carbs are.

Typically 3-7 days

Posted by: Biggly

Thorough, if you're willing to go hard and heavy, have you considered the anabolic burst?

I tracked my own results with Biggly and it does work, at least the way I did it. It's not easy and most will give up but if you have the willpower...?

B.

Posted by: Liftman

Nice post this supports the old Dan Duchane Body Opus program.

I use a modified BodyOpus diet and workout program and it works for me. This is the only diet I have done where I can maintain muscle mass and loose (a lot) fat.

This is what I do and it works great. I usually get to about 245 in the winter (no cardio and lax on the diet), then I use this to get ready for summer or a show. Usually end up around 225 @ 6% BF and takes me about 10 to 12 weeks. If I would just stay leaner in the off season I wouldn’t have to diet as hard.

Monday –
Diet 1600 cals a day (60% Fat/ 39% Prot/ 1% carb Ratio), 130 grams fat, 160 grams protein, less than 10 grams carbs (so only trace carbs from cheese and cream in my coffee)
Training – Half my upper body. 3 – 4 exercises for majors and 2 – 3 for minors muscle groups. All muscle groups get at least one exercise that is heavy and low rep, then the rest are mid to high rep. Cardio on this day is 30 min run.

Tuesday –
Diet - Same as Monday.
Training – Leg Day. 3 – 4 exercises for quads and 2 – 3 for hams and calves. Again all muscle groups get at least one exercise that is heavy and low rep, then the rest are mid to high rep. Cardio on this day is 30 min run.

Wednesday – I do a urine ketone check when I get out of bed. If I’m not in ketosis I use the same diet as Monday and Tuesday. If I am in Ketosis I drop some of the fat, keep protein the same and add in just a few fresh greens like broccoli, or asparagus or a roman salad.
Diet 1600 cals a day (50% Fat/ 39% Prot/ 11% carb Ratio), 88 grams fat, 160 grams protein, less than 50 grams carbs and only green veggies.
Training – The other half of my upper body. 3 – 4 exercises for majors and 2 – 3 for minors muscle groups. All muscle groups get at least one exercise that is heavy and low rep, then the rest are mid to high rep. Cardio on this day is 30 min run.

Thursday & Friday
Diet Same as the Wednesday diet.
Training – Abs and Cardio 40 to 60 min run.

Saturday (Train hard in the morning then eat carbs all day .)
Diet – 1 hour before training have about 40 to 50 grams of carbs to boot you out of ketosis. This will switch you back to running on carbs again for just a few hours so you can squeeze the last of the glycogen out of your muscle bellies. I like to have apples.
Training (first thing in the am) – Total body workout. Every body part gets high rep for 4 to 5 sets. I used to get in a rotation at the gym using every pin selector machine (like most gyms they have a machine for every body part) do one set then move to next machine with as little rest in-between as you can handle. It will take about 2 hours and you will feel like crap. Now days I have been training Strongman equipment for my total body workout. It is hard, takes about 3 hours and it is very entertaining.

Diet, Re-feed or Carb-up plan. This will start around 10 or 11 am as soon as you are done with your workout, even before you shower. Eat every 1 to 2 hours. High simple carbs but avoid fructose. The reason we avoid fructose is because it stores in the liver AND on Monday when you go back to 0 carbs you don’t want that stored in your liver as that will slow your decent into ketosis.
Meals 1 thru 4 – Simple liquid carbs (glucose) with just a bit of whey mixed in every hour. Each drink should be 1 gram of carbs for every pound of lean muscle tissue you have. So for example if you are 225 & 10% bf you will have about 202.5 lbs of lean tissue therefore these drinks should be around 200 grams of carbs, 10 to 15 grams of protein and 0 fat. So in 4 hours you are taking in 800 grams of simple carbs. Now this isn’t a ton of fun because you are getting carbs but you are not chewing anything yet. LOL! To be honest with you I NEED to chew on something so I will buy a fat free angle food cake eat just a bit of it with every drink.
Meals 5 thru 8 (every 1.5 hours) – switch to simple carb solid foods, fat free, and low in fructose & sucrose. Each meal should be about 0.75 grams of carbs for each lb of lean body mass. So using our example above each meal will be about 150 grams of carbs 15 grams protein and 0 fat if you can.
Meals 9 thru 12 (every 1.5 hours, meals 11 & 12 may end up being mid-night snacks depending on when you go to bed) Keep eating simple carb solid foods, fat free, and low in fructose & sucrose. Each meal should be about 0.5 grams of carbs for each lb of lean body mass. So now we are looking at about 100 grams of carbs 15 grams protein and 0 fat if you can.

If you add it all up for me that about 1800 grams of carbs (7200 cals) it looks like a lot and it is but it works as long as you have done the work during the week and got into ketosis. I got qualified for nationals in 1998, (wow that was 10 years ago how did that happen) using this diet. I was 228 at 5’11”. In the last few weeks I was doing about double the cardio listed above but still on conventional low fat low carb high protein diets I had to do two 90 min cardio sessions a day to get contest ready. Plus the best I could do before this diet was 215 to 220 on stage.

Sunday
Training – None
Diet – Eat a clean balanced diet of complex carbs, medium protein and low fat. Eat 6 to 7 meals. Should be around your old maintenance cals but don’t get to hung up on this day, just avoid high fat and try not to eat any sucrose or fructose. So old style dieting here works great, oatmeal, brown rice, whole grain pasta, ect
Try to have your last meal done by 6 pm, then just before bed have a simple carb drink of about 50 grams of simple (glucose) carbs. This will spike your insulin levels and start to drive out all those happy carbs from the blood stream.

This works for me, maybe it will work for you.

Posted by: cpush

Why do most carb cycling plans never put a _no_ carb day after a high carb day. Is it a bad idea to go no carb day after a refeed?

Posted by: Built

I just do "high" and "low".

Unless you're on a specific set plan like UD2.0 or PSMF with refeeds, it doesn't matter. The bigger deal is to coordinate the diet with your training.

Posted by: GeorgeForemanRules

how do i refeed in a keto diet.

Posted by: imcleish

I've been on a low carb diet (under 50 g/day) for a few months now. I just find that I prefer the meats, vegetables and nuts to anything else. I'm at 8% bf and trying to lean down, but have been stuck lately. I usually have a cheat meal once/week but I don't really put an emphasis on hitting the carbs too heavy (although sometimes it happens that way). I was skimming through a book written by Vince Gironda where he suggested a high carb meal every 3-4 days and I then made my way over to this thread.

My question is, is it more beneficial to have a high carb meal say twice/week when on a keto/low carb diet or once/week all day? I personally like the twice/week thing better but was wondering what everyone's take is on it. Also, is there a certain # of carbs I should try to hit in this one meal? I had my first refeed today and I had a 16 oz mashed sweet potato mixed with organic applesauce and cinnamon and some gluten free pancakes made with almond milk. Ended up at about 300 g carbs, 10 g fat and trace amounts of protein. I just replaced one of my regular meals with this today. Will probably do the same Friday. I felt sick afterwards I ate so much......

Posted by: NJ-Surfer

Quote:

Originally Posted by imcleish

I've been on a low carb diet (under 50 g/day) for a few months now. I just find that I prefer the meats, vegetables and nuts to anything else.......

What does a <50g/day carb meal plan look like? From the veggies, nuts, protein shake, and little bit of milk in my diet the lowest I get is ~90-100g carbs/day (see attached). I don't have any sugar or breads. Just wondering what you eat to get this low. If anyone can share their details I'd much appreciate.

Posted by: imcleish

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJ-Surfer

I pretty much eat broccoli, avocados, coconut oil, shredded coconut, steak, grass fed ground beef, chicken, asparagus, spinach, eggs and organic sausage/bacon. I don't do dairy or protein shakes which saves me a few grams. I pretty much have a piece of meat, 3 or 4 cups of broccoli and fill the rest in with coconut oil, shredded coconut, olive oil and an avocado once/day. I probably am lucky to get 30 g of net carbs/day.....

Posted by: PhatLiLPanda

Hey guys, i was wondering what would be a appropriate refeed for someone like me.
Im 5'11, 170 pounds and around 18% body fat.
However my situtation is different then most others. Recently, ive been on a 4 month low carb diet <80 carbs a day. When i was on my low carb diet i took in about 1500-1800 calories a day even though my maintence is ~2500-3400 depending on if i have work that day or not and 4500 if go the gym/work as well (according to my bodybugg). I sorta believe that i was starving myself and putting my body into starvation mode so now its hard for me to lose weight even though i go to the gym everyday, and upped my calories to ~2500 a day (which is about a 1000 deflict) with <170 carbs day. My question is should i still just do the 1 day refeed or should i add another day or 2 to rejump my metabalism so i can kick my body out of starvation mode.

thanks guys!

Posted by: rubika

Hello,
I am newbie in this forum site.
Thanks.

Posted by: theCaptn'

subbed

Posted by: Big Smoothy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

how do i refeed in a keto diet.

I remember you being on a very low carb diet in the past (if I remember correctly) but by saying you're on a Keto diet I assume you are on a 0 carb diet, correct?

It must be working for your goals because you're doing it.

How is it?

Posted by: Miknal

So how does alcohol affect leptin?

I am assuming it is not good...

Posted by: pluckjoe

Great post and some quality replies. Thanks for the info

Posted by: lknmuscle

this is a huge help - thanks

Posted by: Curt James

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeForemanRules

how do i refeed in a keto diet.

Palumbo's keto diet calls for six meals per day. I assumed the refeed during keto was the high carb meal he recommends as a substitute for meal 6 once per week.

Just read the article and I guess I've been messing up, though. My cheat or refeed includes EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING, not just bagels, pasta, rice, bread, cereal, ice cream, pancakes, and waffles. I started my last cheat off with microwave popcorn and a Special Dark chocolate bar. Then came the lasagna, a glass of wine, chicken parmesan, and a sundae!

Tomorrow is my cheat meal and it's going to be Outback Steakhouse with my family. I'm going to embarrass them by ordering the menu.

Posted by: Curt James

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miknal

So how does alcohol affect leptin?

I am assuming it is not good...

You still here?

Alcohol ingestion decreases both diurnal and nocturnal secretion of leptin in healthy individuals

CONCLUSION Ingestion of moderate amounts of alcohol has an inhibitory effect on leptin secretion in normal subjects.

Posted by: canadairon

Refeeds are about done while cutting; that is, creating a caloric arrears so your anatomy is affected to await on fat as an activity source. Most bodies on any low carb diet. (i.e.) beneath than 1 gram per batter of bodyweight per day or implementing any acute caloric arrears should absorb a refeed.

Refeeds are acclimated to accession Leptin, bushing beef and Liver glycogen, as able-bodied as accouterment acumen absolution from dieting as your anatomy is briefly befuddled into a accompaniment of metabolic balance.

Leptin is advised an anti-starvation/metabolic antithesis hormone. As your Leptin levels decrease, the arresting is beatific to acquaint that your anatomy is activity into starvation mode. As your anatomy goes into starvation approach we all apperceive what happens your fat accident slows bottomward badly or in some cases to a arrest halt. So in adjustment to bang fat accident into accessory again, you charge to accession Leptin.

Posted by: michelhussey

It really depends on what diet I am doing. 2.0 reseeds are more like a crab orgy.I can easily consume 1400 grams of crabs. During crab cycling your protein and fat remain consistent throughout, no matter what day your That is my thought anyway, I would like to hear Tip's thought as its his diet concepts and he know more about it than I.

Posted by: Built

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadairon

Refeeds are about done while cutting; that is, creating a caloric arrears so your anatomy is affected to await on fat as an activity source. Most bodies on any low carb diet. (i.e.) beneath than 1 gram per batter of bodyweight per day or implementing any acute caloric arrears should absorb a refeed.

Refeeds are acclimated to accession Leptin, bushing beef and Liver glycogen, as able-bodied as accouterment acumen absolution from dieting as your anatomy is briefly befuddled into a accompaniment of metabolic balance.

Leptin is advised an anti-starvation/metabolic antithesis hormone. As your Leptin levels decrease, the arresting is beatific to acquaint that your anatomy is activity into starvation mode. As your anatomy goes into starvation approach we all apperceive what happens your fat accident slows bottomward badly or in some cases to a arrest halt. So in adjustment to bang fat accident into accessory again, you charge to accession Leptin.

Was this a google translated passage. canadairon?

Posted by: JPN

thanks awswome

Posted by: amy12

Refeeds:

Refeeds are typically done while cutting; that is, creating a caloric deficit so your body is forced to rely on fat as an energy source. Most people on any low carb diet that is less than 1 gram per pound of bodyweight per day or implementing any extreme caloric deficit should incorporate a refeed.

Leptin:

Leptin, part of the cytokine family, is synthesized primarily by your adipose tissue, with a small contribution coming from the skeletal muscles and brain. The synthesis rate of leptin is mostly controlled by both numbers of body fat cells as well as size of your current bodyfat cells.

Leptin's main function in the body is to play a significant role in regulating both hunger, food intake and energy expenditure. As leptin levels fall, the greater your cravings become for all those wonderful foods that you used to eat when you weren't dieting.

So if you are experiencing more intense cravings on a daily basis, take some relief in knowing that this is actually your body responding to a physiological signal, not just your mind playing nasty games with you and making your life miserable.

Along with hunger pangs, leptin also signifies a slowing metabolism. Whenever you are on a hypocalorie diet for an extended period of time, your body will begin to slow its metabolic functions in an effort to 'make due' with the amount of fuel that it is being given. Know what this means for you? Little or no fat loss. Not a good situation.

Posted by: darkknightza

7 day

Posted by: syed2011

Leptin is highly responsive to glucose metabolism and you will get benefit much more if the majority of your excess calories are coming from good sources of carbohydrates that will turn into glucose.

Posted by: Aldrich

O that's nice one and informative one post Judi thanks for sharing this info with all the member's of the forum.... And will you please share more data about the related topic....??? Thanks in advance...........

Posted by: ChrisSmithWebGuy

Brilliant

thanks for sharing this with us...

Posted by: kajal123

Wow !!!!! Its great post and some quality replies....Thanks for the nice information in this site,,,,,,good sharing.......well done,,,,

Posted by: Somnus

Excellent thread! I've been doing a keto diet for the past month or so at around <30 net carbs per day, and I do cardio 5x a week for an hour in intervals while working out 1 muscle group per day mon-fri. I've been feeling very VERY drained lately with my approx. 1500 cal intake + exertion. By the way, I'm 5' 8", 25, 175 lbs, and about 18-20% BF. Looking to lean down as much as possible with minimal muscle loss (hopefully). This whole deal with keeping leptin levels up with consistent refeeds really explains why I would hit a wall after a week or two of intense workouts while low carbing. My only solution until now was to slightly increase my carb intake on weekends, but after trying a true refeed on sunday, my energy levels were once again incredible on monday! Excellent! I had double the energy and twice the power! I consumed approx. 900 grams carbs/20 fat/130 protein and a total of 6000 calories! Jeez! Well worth the temporary bloating I'm sure, LOL. Thx for the helpful info from all of you.

Posted by: Merkaba

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somnus

Excellent thread! I've been doing a keto diet for the past month or so at around <30 net carbs per day, and I do cardio 5x a week for an hour in intervals while working out 1 muscle group per day mon-fri. I've been feeling very VERY drained lately with my approx. 1500 cal intake + exertion. By the way, I'm 5' 8", 25, 175 lbs, and about 18-20% BF. Looking to lean down as much as possible with minimal muscle loss (hopefully). This whole deal with keeping leptin levels up with consistent refeeds really explains why I would hit a wall after a week or two of intense workouts while low carbing. My only solution until now was to slightly increase my carb intake on weekends, but after trying a true refeed on sunday, my energy levels were once again incredible on monday! Excellent! I had double the energy and twice the power! I consumed approx. 900 grams carbs/20 fat/130 protein and a total of 6000 calories! Jeez! Well worth the temporary bloating I'm sure, LOL. Thx for the helpful info from all of you.

An hour of cardio and 1500 calories a day is probably the main reason you feel drained, not because of lack of carbs, per se...at least I would say. Your workout including cardio is probably what, 1000 calories? That leaves you with 500. The heart alone burns more than that.

Posted by: Somnus

The excess cardio and low cals are most likely the leading cause of feeling drained. This week I'm gonna try up-ing my cals to 2400 on cardio days 3x a week (Mon/Wed/Fri), and 1800 on weight training days (Tue, Thurs), but on Fri I'm thinking of a bit more total to fuel an exhaustive so called depletion workout. I was thinking of keeping the fat low/Protein high starting Fri morning, with glucose pre workout & gluc/prot post workout, and then same 2 hrs. later, after which I'll just carb up low fat, moderate protein, high carb.

Posted by: Hubauer

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadairon

So in adjustment to bang fat accident into accessory again, you charge to accession Leptin.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Posted by: jagbender

water weight swings just for kicks

last night after carb load 249.5
This Am 246
This afternoon after 15 mile ride 242
after protein shake , water and lunch 244

Amazing how much a body can fluctuate in weight so fast

244 is where I was before the carb load.

Posted by: Night_Wolf

I'm 167lb endomorph, I'v gone from 21%bf to about 11-12% right now in about 7 weeks. (Is my first post, I'm not begginer)
I wanna try this diet cuz it sounds fun.
Does this sound good: 50-50-50-75-75-refeed-50? (carbs).
Protein is always high and some EFAs every day.

Posted by: premo

ice cream waffles and muffins ??? is this a cheat meal / day or a refeed

Posted by: Gentleman

Ice Cream FTW.

Posted by: Dman509

hey guys,

great article and discussion! quick question though... i am 4 weeks out form a competition. should i still refeed? and if so can it be the same as past weeks or something different? thank you!

Posted by: Built

4 weeks out - probably a good time to do it, actually. How's your conditioning? How lean are you?

Posted by: Dman509

i am pretty lean. probaby around 7-6%. i am just struggling with the lower back/ab fat. i was still planning on the pasta and bagels for 6 hours friday evening. would that be a bad idea??

Posted by: Built

Isn't that a refeed?

Posted by: Dman509

oh yeah it is but i was just curious if i should switch to healthier foods like oatmeal and sweet potatoes instead of the bagels and pasta and stuff like that. since it is so close to the competition

Posted by: Built

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dman509

oh yeah it is but i was just curious if i should switch to healthier foods like oatmeal and sweet potatoes instead of the bagels and pasta and stuff like that. since it is so close to the competition

Why are oatmeal and sweet potatoes healthier?

I might suggest avoiding wheat - it bloats a lot of people, and I'm one of 'em. I refeed on white rice, dextrose, potatoes, and sweet potatoes, but that's me. This far out, it shouldn't matter. Loading up for the big dance, you'll want stuff without too much fibre. So white rice for sure.

Posted by: Dman509

ok sweet thank you

Posted by: Tomn

appreciate this info, very nice, thanks

Posted by: Grizzly Adams

Thanks for the info in here

Posted by: leestacy38

Thanks for sharing, appreciate it much.

Posted by: Gor22don33

I'm sure you could, anythings possible. However, I think it would disrupt the diet. During a refeed you are watching your protein and keeping fat low. During carb cycling your protein and fat remain consistant throughout, no matter what day your on.

Posted by: mccouch23

If I am consuming no more than 200 carbs per day on workout days (5x a week, lifting + 20 mis HIIT), and less than 80 on off days, would a re-feed be permissible on the weekend? I'm 158 lbs about 7% bf

Posted by: MidWest

Great thread thanks!

Posted by: Powermaster

Great write up Jodi. I've read that fast absorbing protein such as whey can give leptin a bump as well.

Posted by: Built

Whey boosts leptin, but that's because it stimulates insulin, not because it is "fast".

Posted by: Powermaster

Thank you Built. Is through gluconeogenesis that insulin & leptin are stimulated?

Posted by: MuscleGauge1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodi

Refeeds and Leptin

Refeeds are typically done while cutting; that is, creating a caloric deficit so your body is forced to rely on fat as an energy source. Most people on any low carb diet---i.e. less than 1 gram per pound of bodyweight per day----or implementing any extreme caloric deficit should incorporate a refeed.

Refeeds are used to raise Leptin, refill muscle and liver glycogen, as well as providing sanity release from dieting as your body is temporarily thrown into a state of metabolic balance. Please read Par Deus's first article on Leptin and its benefits:
http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/ma...D=51&issueID=3

A Quick, Layman’s Explanation of Leptin:

Leptin is considered an anti-starvation/metabolic balance hormone. As your Leptin levels decrease, the signal is sent to inform that your body is going into starvation mode. As your body goes into starvation mode we all know what happens---your fat loss slows down immensely or in some cases to a screeching halt. So in order to kick fat loss into gear again, you need to raise Leptin.

Common sense dictates that the body seeks balance, and if you endeavor to upset that balance---you have to outwit your body. We were built for survival, and unfortunately for the fitness/bodybuilding-oriented folk, “survival” didn’t mean 170 pounds of ripped mass at 6% bodyfat.

I can’t count have many people have asked this the question of why they lost fat after cheating. They have been so good and clean on their diets for weeks and results slowed down, they got frustrated, they cheated and 2 days later woke up lighter and leaner than before the cheat. Main reason right there, they raised Leptin. Raising Leptin levels will give your body the kick-start it needs for the next few days to keep you out of starvation mode as you diet. As long as your body is out of starvation mode, the faster the fat loss, and the less likely you are to lose LBM, while suffering on all counts in the process. Like I said above, this a brief explanation and there is so much info on Leptin so please read Par’s articles for a more detailed and scientific explanation.

Eat Your Way Out of Metabolic Hell

So, now you are probably thinking, "How do I increase Leptin?” Ready for this...........Eat lots of Carbs. I'm not necessarily talking slow burning carbs here either folks.

I know, most of you reading this right now are thinking

I'd like to thank Dante for his edit's to this write up.

I like that you designated slow-burning carbs from the rest. Good job. Great Post

(CLICK HERE here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Refeeds and Leptin

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