Obesity a disease now? [Forum Archive]

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Obesity a disease now?

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Posted by: Stickboy

Heard on the news that officials want to declare obesity a disease. Here's my problem with that.....

1. The goverment has put out the food "pyramid". I never did agree with it, for various reasons, but the primary being that I think it's using flawed and misleading logic in the way it is presented.

2. Now MY tax dollars have to treat someone who can't figure out that MickyD's and the like aren't serving healthy food? This is akin to that guy that tried to sue fast food places for "making" him fat. (I know that we are already paying for obese people's health problems, but if WE have to pay for gym memberships and whatnot, why can't they?)

3. If the goverment really cared about peoples health they would rid some of the food industries practices. They would give major tax breaks to organic producers, and the ranchers that raise grass feed beef ONLY since that's the natural diet for these animals anyway.

I dunno....I am off base here? Sorry if this sounds like a rant. Just torks me off that they would even consider this a disease when it's really a matter of willpower and education. If you have kids in school that eat a school lunch, take a good look at what they serve. Not exactly the healthiest stuff you can eat.

Posted by: donescobar2000

I agree with you bud. I dont think its a disease also. I know when I was fat (morbidly obese) I would eat shit. I got tired of it and got my ass in the gym because I saw myself and did not like what I saw. Its ridiculous that the government would help these people who do not have willpower to do the same. I understand that moral may be down but still its not a thumbs up in my book.

Posted by: Prince

Posted by: NeedMuscleMass

anyone down for a group lawsuit to sue burger king cuase they got us fat?

Posted by: Mudge

I wonder if laziness, lack of motivation, and passing the buck are diseases too.

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally posted by NeedMuscleMass
anyone down for a group lawsuit to sue burger king cuase they got us fat?

Let's get Twin Peak and we'll do a class action!

Posted by: OceanDude

I use to think similar things as you all about it all being attitude, laziness and nutrition. There is truth in this thinking up to the point that a person permanently damages one’s metabolism. At which point (barring psychological disorders) obesity begins to look like a true disease since it just cascades out of control as mobility and metabolism slow down. If you read the literature there is a clear indication that after exceeding a certain threshold of excess weight one’s metabolism can be permanently damaged and it may become impossible to get the body to ever again select fat tissue as the preferred fuel. There are also various studies that link obesity with childhood feeding and how heavy the mother was at gestation and what she ate. We really need a whole lot more study since it is clearly better to never get overweight in the first place. It’s extremely hard to lose weight and keep it off if you get over certain thresholds (typically about 20 lbs overweight) since one’s metabolic set point changes and the adipose tissue actually becomes like a new organ that adapts in ways not fully understood. Once insulin insensitivity sets in (pre diabetes and insulin insensitivity are one of the most common aliments in this country) about the only natural way to improve things is with resistance training. But there seem to be limits on how far this will revert the condition. Other than that option it’s a life long regiment of special drugs and very narrow diet intake to hold it all in check. So for a guy that is not big on taxation in this case I am all in favor of putting up the red flag and calling it a disease. This moniker it will lead to more budget being spent to help an extremely large majority of US citizens. It’s certainly money better spent that many many other programs and hopefully it will result in money being taken from those other wasteful programs that serve only small special interest constituencies.

Posted by: Mudge

I dont believe that everyone eats out of controll portions that is overweight, but numbers would not be increasing so rapidly if laziness and diet didn't have something to do with it.

Poor diet and lack of excersize are part of todays society.

Posted by: NeedMuscleMass

This should be discouraging enough to not eat fast food, which helps make America the most over weight nation.

The Fast Food Nation:The Darkside of the All American Meal by Eric Schlosser

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
I dont believe that everyone eats out of controll portions that is overweight, but numbers would not be increasing so rapidly if laziness and diet didn't have something to do with it.

Poor diet and lack of excersize are part of todays society.

Mudge, I agree with your final statement about poor diet and lack of exercise (or activity). But I think it is an unfair generalization to call all these people lazy. “Physical Inactivity” is the more scientific and objective view and proper term in my opinion. “Laziness” implies all sorts of bad things like its all fundamentally their choice to be lazy. It may be for some but many others are just at their limit to get by everyday doing the modern work routine and come home to tend to family matters etc. Still others are just nutritionally ignorant and are clueless that they are being fed things that are killing them (both in proportion size and in formulation and absorption rate). I don’t think it is so much laziness as it is our “modern” lifestyle and lack of time. There have always been lazy populations all through history that were not as obese as we are - abundance and the enhanced taste and freshness of food is also much greater now. Really though, exercise is a luxury anymore with an information and serviced based economy. People are literally working themselves to death to pay the bills and posses more material things. So greed or the unhealthy desire for possessions is a part of this too. To get more time out of the day many workers take fast 10 minute lunches from the junk food machines or drive throughs and eat junk that is only one step removed from poison (e.g. trans fats, corn syrups additives, sugars, sodium, hydrogonized and saturated fats). It use to be that humanity got all its exercise automatically in conjunction with their jobs – mostly farming and manual labor. Since the kinds of work in this country have shifted predominantly from labor to information and service (e.g. phones, computers, desk work etc.) we lost the ability to mostly get free activity as a byproduct of our labor. Clearly we need to rethink if this is a better model for society in the long run if its going to wipe out the population. The ones that are healthy are the ones that either have time to do supplemental exercise or have a way to incorporate exercise into their job routines (or even on the job or on the way to and from it). Of course there are also those that have very high metabolisms and have much more margin for error when it comes to nutritional macro nutrient, caloric and activity imbalance.

In my opinion the biggest factor leading to obesity in our country is the: 1) lack of time and integrated physical activity, 2) abundance of extremely bad formualted foods that are designed to be highly pleasing to the palate and 3) the minute by minute bombardment of food advertising in all forms of media (tv, radio, papers, magazines, internet etc.) that a person is exposed to daily (not to mention peer influences that cascade the media exposure on the job and at home). I also suspect taht there is a cross correlation between the lack of time, stress and the calming effect food initially gives people.

Bottom line - People are stressed, over worked, professionally targeted for food addiction and have damaged metabolisms. Most have little time available to fight back on their own to health or get educated and are basically under seige. Most will not escape this cycle without help.

Posted by: Stickboy

Hmmm, good point, but I still don't see it as a disease. Even if they do end up classifying it as such.....when do you start treatment? Pointless if it's later in life when the wieght problem has already caused other health problems. (Diabetes, Hypertension, etc.)

So, you'd have to start treatment in the childhood years and it would not simply work. Why? Because parents would still let their kids slam down twinkies and soda. Because the school lunches are NOT healthy (IMHO, based on the menus my kids bring home), and even if you made them so they kids would just go buy a bag of chips, a candy bar and a soda from the machines that schools HAVE put in, etc. and avoid the cafeteria.

I think laziness is part of it, but it's being taught to a certain extent (learned behavior). Look at any 12 year that is obviously obese, then take a look into how they are being raised. Oftentimes, they come home, drink a soda, eat some junk food, and sit down playing video games until it's time to eat. Even if the parents give a healthy meal, they'll let the kid drink soda with it. Either that, or they pick up something at the local chicken and burger joint for dinner 4 out of 7 nights.

So in that (not so) hypothetical example, is it a disease, or is it abuse?

Posted by: Stickboy

Obviously, I didn't see your your reply above mine when I posted, OceanDude. More of a reply to your first post in this thread.

Posted by: Mudge

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
“Laziness” implies all sorts of bad things like its all fundamentally their choice to be lazy.

I look at humans in a half empty perspective most of the time. Example; No parking within 30 feet of thier apartment building, so subject drives around the entire apartment complex more than once waiting to find parking nearby as if someone is going to leave. Now they could have parked outside of the complex which is a 4 minute walk (I know that for sure), but instead spent more time, sitting in thier car, going in circles because they are so lazy that they are willing to WORK for it!

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by Stickboy
Hmmm, good point, but I still don't see it as a disease. Even if they do end up classifying it as such.....when do you start treatment? Pointless if it's later in life when the wieght problem has already caused other health problems. (Diabetes, Hypertension, etc.)

So, you'd have to start treatment in the childhood years and it would not simply work. Why? Because parents would still let their kids slam down twinkies and soda. Because the school lunches are NOT healthy (IMHO, based on the menus my kids bring home), and even if you made them so they kids would just go buy a bag of chips, a candy bar and a soda from the machines that schools HAVE put in, etc. and avoid the cafeteria.

I think laziness is part of it, but it's being taught to a certain extent (learned behavior). Look at any 12 year that is obviously obese, then take a look into how they are being raised. Oftentimes, they come home, drink a soda, eat some junk food, and sit down playing video games until it's time to eat. Even if the parents give a healthy meal, they'll let the kid drink soda with it. Either that, or they pick up something at the local chicken and burger joint for dinner 4 out of 7 nights.

So in that (not so) hypothetical example, is it a disease, or is it abuse?

Children are making their own misinformed decisions and doing stupid things in ever increasing numbers. Their parents and supervision are letting them get away with it and in some cases encouraging it (drugs, sex, poor nutrition). Some of the common factors in all these self destructive behaviors irrespective of age are: lack of maturity, lack of responsibility, lack of self control and ignorance or indifference to the consequences of the behaviors. The line between adult and adolescent behavior has become very blurred and many adults are reverting back to irresponsible childish behavior. The children, lacking proper role models and good examples do what all the other kids and their parents do. So this problem is clearly more than just obesity since it transcends an entire spectrum of societal problems that are largely behavioral related (with a lot of encouragement from what I would call the misery merchants). In essence our entire society could be diagnosed as very sick and diseased on many simultaneous fronts other than just obesity. But there are too many issues for us to consider here. Triage is necessary for those that actually want help but the selfish and stubborn would rather infect all of society than give up their freedoms to make pigs of themselves and worse.

I am told that many schools have actually taken Physical Education out of the curriculum. If this is true many kids will be doomed to physical mediocrity, poor self esteem and lack of overall confidence. When I was in school we had required physical activity almost every day – and it was rigorous and very demanding. The coach would make us all run fairly long distance laps right at the start of class (and more if we were not paying attention to instruction). He encouraged us to go as fast as we could so we would have more time to do the more fun recreational things sooner (e.g. soccer, swimming, football, basketball etc.). There was an important lesson in priorities in all this too – “do difficult things first and play later”. It taught us the universal principals of motivation, sacrifice and reward. We had a lot of fun.

To answer your question. I think any school administrator or parent that lets a marketer talk them into putting in vending machines and serving junk food in school should be found guilty of child abuse and wanton abandonment of custodianship. This is clearly an encouraged abuse. It becomes an infectious disease (mental) as soon as an adult custodian starts to rationalize that it’s a child’s right to have the freedom to choose which poisons he should take at the same time the schools collect revenues from the sales.

Posted by: ponyboy

I'm reading "Fast Food Nation" right now - an excellent read. My sister read it before she gave it to me and said she won't ever eat fast food again unless it's totally her last choice.

As for obesity being a disease, my mode of thought on this is that is is more a mental disease than physical. I agree partially with what OD said about the metabolism being altered, but I also believe strongly that this doesn't occur until the subject is about 200 pounds overweight, not 20. There are dozens of examples of people out there who are 100-200 pounds overweight who do manage to adjust their metabolism and lose weight and have a healthy lifestyle in the long run. I am a big believer in the ability of the body to adapt to whatever you throw at it, no matter what condition you are in.

As for the whole society thing, I think this all starts with education, reinforcement by the government and proper parenting skills. There is no government agency (at least here in Canada) that does anything for physical fitness. Even the Ministry of Health has no clue about proper guidelines and they do nothing to reinforce the fact that exercise and proper diet can help you be not only in better shape, but happier and help you live longer. As with many other things in life, too many parents want a quick fix and don't actually want to parent their children at all, schools don't want to take the time because pay for teachers is pathetic (or can't because they are overcrowded) or they are getting bought off by food companies. It's a really horrible situation.

Personally if and when I have children it's going to be a tough call whether or not I even send them to public school at all.

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
I look at humans in a half empty perspective most of the time. Example; No parking within 30 feet of thier apartment building, so subject drives around the entire apartment complex more than once waiting to find parking nearby as if someone is going to leave. Now they could have parked outside of the complex which is a 4 minute walk (I know that for sure), but instead spent more time, sitting in thier car, going in circles because they are so lazy that they are willing to WORK for it!

Mudge, it is all too easy to take this perspective and it’s even more sobering if one has drunk the other half of that glass (it contains sugary sodas and alcohol). We all see this kind of behavior. The concept of working hard to be lazy is intriguing and brings to mind the equations of work I was taught in school. Who does more work – a person who walks across the room or a person who presses against a wall for hours on end on an immovable object? The answer is all in the definition of work. Work is only accomplished when a force is applied over a distance. In this case the person who actually accomplishes something by walking across the room produces more work than the person who exerted himself and moved nothing (and produces zero work). So Amen brother – it’s infinitely better to do some work rather than just spin your wheels and go nowhere in life. But I encourage compassion for those that are shackled to the wall by the chains of poor self esteem, lack of self control and held down by people that are hell bent on maintaining that enslaved condition to make a profit on tending to the jailed.

By the way, the most nauseating example similar to what you described is watching a healthy person sitting in a large luxury automobile pull up to a handicap parking space, place a purchased or borrowed handicap flag on the mirror and walk that shorter distance to go buy beer and chips from the grocer. The only thing worse is watching an actual 400+ lb handicap person propelling their blob of a body down the junk food isles on electric carts with attached food baskets in tow. It makes me want to vomit every time I see it and its now become a common sight.

Posted by: NeedMuscleMass

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
I am told that many schools have actually taken Physical Education out of the curriculum. If this is true many kids will be doomed to physical mediocrity, poor self esteem and lack of overall confidence. When I was in school we had required physical activity almost every day – and it was rigorous and very demanding. The coach would make us all run fairly long distance laps right at the start of class (and more if we were not paying attention to instruction). He encouraged us to go as fast as we could so we would have more time to do the more fun recreational things sooner (e.g. soccer, swimming, football, basketball etc.). There was an important lesson in priorities in all this too – “do difficult things first and play later”. It taught us the universal principals of motivation, sacrifice and reward. We had a lot of fun.

I go to a Catholic school and we only have gym once every 7 school days for 2 periods (80 minutes minus time needed to change). So that about an hour of gym every 7 school days so there could be a week without gym at all.

But it gets better.

Since this is my senior year we are no longer required to take gym. We are given the option to go to "Senior bowling" at a nearby bowling ally ever 7 school days. Its fun and all but I'm sure for a good portion of the 350 kids in my grade gym would be there only expercise.

PE is getting taking out of the schedule so theres more time for computer classes and other useless classes that are being required by New York State.

Posted by: Mudge

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
But I encourage compassion for those that are shackled to the wall by the chains of poor self esteem, lack of self control and held down by people that are hell bent on maintaining that enslaved condition to make a profit on tending to the jailed.

I do have compassion, 2 of my better friends are overweight, come to think of it, most of my better friends have always been overweight. Some of them being pot smoking hippies who eat like crap all day long, one a diabetic, and one who routinely doesn't go to the gym for long stretches of time and cheats on her diet all too frequently until once every 6 months or so she revisits the idea of 'getting in shape for real this time.'

If someone really wants it, they will find a way. If they would rather sit there and complain as if its impossible, I have a hard time feeling sorry for them for very long at all.

Posted by: HoldDaMayo

I wonder how much this debate has to do with what political party you associate yourself with... it seems the average republican would say... they aren't helpless, they should be helping themselves... but a democrat would say they are a product of their society, possibly upbringing... and in need of government programs to correct...

Maybe I'm off base, but this discussion reminds me alot of many political discussions I've had...

Posted by: NeedMuscleMass

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
I do have compassion, 2 of my better friends are overweight, come to think of it, most of my better friends have always been overweight. Some of them being pot smoking hippies who eat like crap all day long, one a diabetic, and one who routinely doesn't go to the gym for long stretches of time and cheats on her diet all too frequently until once every 6 months or so she revisits the idea of 'getting in shape for real this time.'

If someone really wants it, they will find a way. If they would rather sit there and complain as if its impossible, I have a hard time feeling sorry for them for very long at all.

I've found pot smoking does not lead to eating bad. The "munchies" are just as easily satisfied with ff yogurt or an apple.

I agree with you. I cant possibly feel bad for people who complain and complain for attention but do nothing to better themselves. Health and fitness is something only you can change not the people around you.

EDIT: Just saw Hold's post. That theory probably is not far off from the truth. I'm only 17 and still havent decided republican or democrat. I'm republican in the sence of business but democratic when it comes to support for welfare and social security.

Posted by: Mudge

Quote:

Originally posted by NeedMuscleMass
I've found pot smoking does not lead to eating bad. The "munchies" are just as easily satisfied with ff yogurt or an apple.

Of the potheads, one is a male with a normal bodytype girlfriend (also a pot head), one is a female who is just plain big (6'1" maybe 260 and topheavy), they all eat virtually the same average people food type diet. All young so average people food meaning beer and pizza.

Posted by: naturaltan

I do sympathize with those who are overweight and it is a medical issue.
I cannot sympathize with those using the no time excuse.
I cannot sympathize with those who are overweight and not eating properly
I can sympathize with those who are overweight, eating properly, going to the gym and seeing slow results and wanting to give up.

Posted by: NeedMuscleMass

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
Of the potheads, one is a male with a normal bodytype girlfriend (also a pot head), one is a female who is just plain big (6'1" maybe 260 and topheavy), they all eat virtually the same average people food type diet. All young so average people food meaning beer and pizza.

Guess it depends on the person, like everything else.

Posted by: Mudge

I would be pretty discusted with myself to eat like that, I was close enough a few years ago and I just can't eat like that.

Posted by: Dero

Quote:

Originally posted by HoldDaMayo
I wonder how much this debate has to do with what political party you associate yourself with... it seems the average republican would say... they aren't helpless, they should be helping themselves... but a democrat would say they are a product of their society, possibly upbringing... and in need of government programs to correct...

Maybe I'm off base, but this discussion reminds me alot of many political discussions I've had...

The way I look at it...No,you are NOT off base!
Anything that OD tackles has to do with politics,sorry dude I call them as I see them.
For once OD,don't mix politics and health!!!

My view!!

Posted by: katie64

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
I use to think similar things as you all about it all being attitude, laziness and nutrition. There is truth in this thinking up to the point that a person permanently damages one’s metabolism. At which point (barring psychological disorders) obesity begins to look like a true disease since it just cascades out of control as mobility and metabolism slow down. If you read the literature there is a clear indication that after exceeding a certain threshold of excess weight one’s metabolism can be permanently damaged and it may become impossible to get the body to ever again select fat tissue as the preferred fuel. There are also various studies that link obesity with childhood feeding and how heavy the mother was at gestation and what she ate. We really need a whole lot more study since it is clearly better to never get overweight in the first place. It’s extremely hard to lose weight and keep it off if you get over certain thresholds (typically about 20 lbs overweight) since one’s metabolic set point changes and the adipose tissue actually becomes like a new organ that adapts in ways not fully understood. Once insulin insensitivity sets in (pre diabetes and insulin insensitivity are one of the most common aliments in this country) about the only natural way to improve things is with resistance training. But there seem to be limits on how far this will revert the condition. Other than that option it’s a life long regiment of special drugs and very narrow diet intake to hold it all in check. So for a guy that is not big on taxation in this case I am all in favor of putting up the red flag and calling it a disease. This moniker it will lead to more budget being spent to help an extremely large majority of US citizens. It’s certainly money better spent that many many other programs and hopefully it will result in money being taken from those other wasteful programs that serve only small special interest constituencies.

Bullshit..............I'm livining proof that's a crock........ JMHO.....

Posted by: Mudge

Here is a study on some eating habits:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...findwhyussofat

Posted by: HoldDaMayo

I think that's part of the problem... the other part HAS to be discipline... and I think you can relate that to how many single mothers there are out there... how many teen pregnancies... it's the same problem... people don't care about what possible consequences their actions might have, as long as they are satisfied for that minute... I believe by far this is the worst human trait...

Posted by: katie64

Sorry OD, that was rather harsh from me..........

Posted by: Stickboy

OD makes some good points - I just don't necessarily agree with them all.

Laziness is an adjective. Nothing more than a word to describe a behavior. Are some people lazy? Of course they are. Are some of them obese....sure. No need to take offense at a general comment.

Motivation. If people are truly unhappy with themselves, the can and WILL change the behavior (unless someone can prove to me that overeating is an addiction). Unfortunately, some that are obese lack this. Perhaps depression sets in about the situation, and kills any motivation to change things?

I disagree about the 20 lbs overweight subject. There are too many people that have become shining examples of health after being massively overweight. Genetics may play a part here.

In my mind, there is no way obesity is a disease. The US has become a socieity where nothing is no one's fault. There is always something else to blame. Except yourself.

It's a damn shame really.

Posted by: katie64

Quote:

Originally posted by Stickboy
OD makes some good points - I just don't necessarily agree with them all.

Laziness is an adjective. Nothing more than a word to describe a behavior. Are some people lazy? Of course they are. Are some of them obese....sure. No need to take offense at a general comment.

Motivation. If people are truly unhappy with themselves, the can and WILL change the behavior (unless someone can prove to me that overeating is an addiction). Unfortunately, some that are obese lack this. Perhaps depression sets in about the situation, and kills any motivation to change things?

I disagree about the 20 lbs overweight subject. There are too many people that have become shining examples of health after being massively overweight. Genetics may play a part here.

In my mind, there is no way obesity is a disease. The US has become a socieity where nothing is no one's fault. There is always something else to blame. Except yourself.

It's a damn shame really.

Good Post

Posted by: Dale Mabry

Quote:

Originally posted by Stickboy
The US has become a socieity where nothing is no one's fault.

Yeah, even poor grammar.

Posted by: katie64

Quote:

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
Yeah, even poor grammar.

Are you a english teacher, I missed it, lol

Posted by: Stickboy

Quote:

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
Yeah, even poor grammar.

LOL. Never speak incorrectly again.

I will be here to remind you when you do.

Posted by: Dero

Uh-oh!!!
I am in deep trouble then!
There goes my front!!!
Yes,I agree with all the points you have made Stickboy!!
It is so easy to put the blame on somebody else,imagine all the obese people that are now going to blame it on anybody but the right people THEMSELVES!!!
"I cannot lose any weight,it is the fault of the government"will be the excuse that obese people will have rolling out of their mouth!!
Obesity is NOT a disease,it is a way of life,a way that leads to bad health.I see so many obese people around here,yes in Canada and where do they all gather???At the fast food chains,in front of vending machines,they gather and have meetings and the topic usually is,how can we make money off the government with our fat...?
Sorry,there is SOME sarcasim in this post.

Ok,that aside,I think that obesity is something that grows in each of us,if we DO NOT take care of ourselves!!!WE and only WE can prevent obesity from spreading.This place is not the place that needs preaching,hell,look at all of you lovely people!!!
It's out there,in your every day lives,at the office,at school,on the streets,EVEN AT THE BARS!!!

Do you need that extra bite?
You think that food is good for you?
You are going to take a cab for two blocks??????
How many times,have any of you stopped yourself from saying that to somebody else?
I think if we let it out we will prevent the GOVERNMENT from wasting $$$ on a non medical/psycological desease!!!
OD,don't get me wrong,some of the points you have made are good,but some of them are so way off base.

Posted by: BUSTINOUT

Careful dero. You actually sound like a Republican(according to HDM's) post. lol

Posted by: Dero

Ha,ha... I would have to be a citizen of the country, to be such a beast!!!

I say politics,smolitics!!!(can I say that Stickboy?)

Posted by: BUSTINOUT

It doesn't hurt to dream. lol

Posted by: BUSTINOUT

wanna trade?

Posted by: Dero

Depends what you wanna trade??

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by katie64
Bullshit..............I'm livining proof that's a crock........ JMHO.....

Uhmm Kaitie, I'm confused by your statement. You are not intending to say you are a crock of bullshit are you? You don't look like that to me. Can you elaborate?

-OD

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by Dero
The way I look at it...No,you are NOT off base!
Anything that OD tackles has to do with politics,sorry dude I call them as I see them.
For once OD,don't mix politics and health!!!

My view!!

Dero, why should you think it somehow inappropriate to ignore politics in the context of health and fitness? As for myself I have not explicitly expressed any particular political party’s name or agenda. Why should you call for silence and seek to censor my right to have a political view (which I have not even expressed) when it’s a fundamental right for all Americans to have one? Sorry, to me you are sounding like big brother or someone who thinks they have more rights than I do. Don’t be so naive to think that national policy and the legislation enacted from political motives have no impact on your health. This wrong headedness would have us deny that the large bureaucratic agencies like the FDA (which banned ephedra and forced the concept of the food pyramid and its high amounts of fast carbs down are throats as healthy) and other bad political decisions don’t exist. Look at the numbers bubba. Ever since the government (both Democratic and Republican) declared war on obesity the obesity rate has risen exponentially. It’s the same failed effect we saw with a certain political party declared war on poverty and built more slum housing, increase welfare and record high codependency and quadrupled the poverty levels to unprecedented levels. Ignore the lessons from the past and the bad politics and we all suffer the same result.

Fundamentally, everyone that does not stick their head in the sand should be clearly able to see the two big competing philosophies that shape our laws and personal existence and our health and well being. One is based on a big tax and spend government that promises to trust it to take care of us all from the “womb to the tomb” but fails due to its own bureaucracy and incompetence. The other philosophy is a minimalist government that recognizes the failures, inefficiencies and waste of large government and seeks to promote personal freedom along with personal responsibility. It stead of government controls it relies on market forces and demand as an expression of the people’s will to shape our life (and has its own weaknesses). I definitely have a preference for one general philosophy over the other but I didn’t intent to get into that here. My opinion is most bodybuilders tend to favor being independent and responsible with their life and health and do not want a lot of government intrusion. Let the chips fall where they may on where a person prefers to be on the political spectrum since I have problems with both philosophies. But don’t start talking out of both sides of your mouth by trying to deny me my freedom to have an opinion about how I want to live and control my own life and help my fellow man or I am going to start calling them as I see them – you are sounding like a classical liberal and hypocrite.

Love & Peace Bro - let's all stick our heads in the sand and sing kum-ba-yah.

OD

Posted by: katie64

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
I use to think similar things as you all about it all being attitude, laziness and nutrition.

I believe this to be true....

Quote:

There is truth in this thinking up to the point that a person permanently damages one’s metabolism. At which point (barring psychological disorders) obesity begins to look like a true disease since it just cascades out of control as mobility and metabolism slow down.

Are you saying this is only in the mind of the person, obesity is not a disease, it's a condition, one of which people choose to allow for themselves (medical conditions excluded)

Quote:

If you read the literature there is a clear indication that after exceeding a certain threshold of excess weight one’s metabolism can be permanently damaged and it may become impossible to get the body to ever again select fat tissue as the preferred fuel.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, I totally disagree with this, I have a friend she is in her early sixties, she started walking 4 yrs. ago because she was over8, she changed her diet and walked, after just under 2 yrs, she reached her goal of w8 loss and health, she has maintained her healthy body since then, I am almost 40, I have been over8 for the past 6 yrs, but my excess w8 is due to medication (medical) /not eating (stalling my metabolism)/and pure lack of motivation..........when I say I am living proof, it means, I am losing w8 because of a healthy diet and training, reconditioning my body, it's psychological to the point of changing your perspective on what you want in your life, a healhty life style or one of a life long obesity problem and all that goes with that. I am a third of the way to meeting my goals, I would be further along but I stopped eating and training this summer.

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There are also various studies that link obesity with childhood feeding and how heavy the mother was at gestation and what she ate. We really need a whole lot more study since it is clearly better to never get overweight in the first place. It’s extremely hard to lose weight and keep it off if you get over certain thresholds (typically about 20 lbs overweight) since one’s metabolic set point changes and the adipose tissue actually becomes like a new organ that adapts in ways not fully understood.

Again I do not agree with the beginning of this statement, I gainined 60lbs with both my boys and 40 with my daughter and lost it all back to 127lbs, my normal w8, my children are not over8, my daughter is teeny tiny exactly as I was growing up, my boys are very healthy, I always tell my kids when they measure their bellies and say Mom I'm fat, haha, I say you grow out then up, out and up and when the get the hiccups, they're growing,

, they think it's funny, old wives tale........

And I know nothing about adipose tissue

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Once insulin insensitivity sets in (pre diabetes and insulin insensitivity are one of the most common aliments in this country) about the only natural way to improve things is with resistance training. But there seem to be limits on how far this will revert the condition. Other than that option it’s a life long regiment of special drugs and very narrow diet intake to hold it all in check.

We have tons of literature on this, people again have a choice as to how they want their future health to be, again a sign of laziness and lack of motivation for changing their lifestyle, we do have OE (Overeaters Anonymous), a very simple and basic program, we also have retreats for people to go to, to learn how to change their life style, again this boils down to a choice, you know they say alcoholism is a disease, I can not say one way or the other on this, but for me it's about choice, I've chosen not to have a drink or drug for 18 years because I know what it did to me, it is the same for food, I know how I feel if I don't eat, there are eating disorders (pyschological in my opinion), I do not have an eating disorder, my thing was, I'm never hungry........not a disease

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So for a guy that is not big on taxation in this case I am all in favor of putting up the red flag and calling it a disease. This moniker it will lead to more budget being spent to help an extremely large majority of US citizens. It’s certainly money better spent that many many other programs and hopefully it will result in money being taken from those other wasteful programs that serve only small special interest constituencies.

There already is a huge amount of money spent to educate those that are obese, private money, I admit it can be confusing for some, including me at first, but I believe if people have a willingness to learn and change their attitude to one of meekness, then a wealth of information is giving to them freely, as it has been to me, this actually is one thing that shows people helping people, powers of example are everywhere for those that choose to change their lifestyle.

Posted by: katie64

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
Uhmm Kaitie, I'm confused by your statement. You are not intending to say you are a crock of bullshit are you? You don't look like that to me. Can you elaborate?

-OD

I did apologize for this statement

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by katie64
I believe this to be true....
...

Katie,
Thanks for the clarification and congratulations on your impressive accomplishments. I too am a “success story”. At 47 I was shocked to wake up to the reality that I was 230 lbs and 31% BF. In High school, ages ago by your standards, I was the classic skinny guy at 135 lbs. I never felt that I was that bad out of shape until I read a book that basically told me I was “obese” – in the same category as all those people that were really fat at 300+ lbs. I didn’t think I was that bad but there were the numbers right there on my scale and calipers. Since that revelation over a year ago I became committed to getting back in shape and ended up losing 54 lbs of fat and putting on 16 lbs of muscle and got to 11% BF (currently 189 lbs). But then I realized it was very hard to do any better. After much though, study and effort I concluded that this is not all a condition of age but its due to a change in the body’s metabolic set point. There is no laziness or lack of intense desire to do better on my part. It is extremely difficult for me to get much better because I believe my prior overweight condition damaged my ability to completely regain and keep a higher metabolic set point. In that sense I had a disease that appears to have done irrepairable damage. We all know we must eat enough to prevent loss of lean tissue and to keep strength so I can't simply increase activities even more and reduce calories - the bio system has changed. Maybe in my case the disease is mental for thinking its possible to get a full 6 pack at an age over 40? But believe me when I say I want it and I am not lazy and I am nutritionally very educated and motivated. So, I read more and more and studied and researched medical studies and worked even harder and formed some of the opinions based on research that I have expressed here. I have spent countless hours pouring over medical research.

Given that context you might understand where I am coming from – we have both “been there”. The “problem” with being fitness conscious after coming off of a prior state of obesity is that we want perfection. And that I think is where the subtle differences in opinion exist in this discussion. I believe that obesity is a condition that can be caused by disease (both mental and physical) and also by factors that are not necessarily a true disease (e.g. simple overeating, nutritional ignorance and inactivity). In some extreme cases, perhaps not nesessairly in the majority, I believe it is a genuine disease. There is a point of obesity for some where the body can reach a point where it is physically impossible to eat “normal amounts” of food and still get it absorbed and used by the tissue (due to insulin insensitivity). Forget how a person got to that state but consider what is happening biologically when the organs can not produce and use insulin correctly. At that point obesity is the outward sign of a true disease. It comes down to perspective. Which end of the rope is the end? Which is the disease and what is the effect? Don’t mean to sound flippant but what came first the chicken or the cholesterol?

-OD

Posted by: katie64

Yes, I guess it takes knowing a person a little better than presuming they are just ignorant or lazy..........my difficulty was also in the respect of expecting perfection, but for me it ends up in failure, part of the learning preocess of oneself, typical quick fixes obviously don't work, therefore learning patience and researching how the body works is imperative for future health....... It's difficult to assume anything when it comes to people and their physical and/or mental difficulties, we are all different, that is one thing I have learned here, what works for me may not work for you......................did you understand any of that

lol

Glad your back OD, I admire your intelligence and willingness to see the other side of things

Posted by: Prince

OceanDude, a very small pecentage of overweight and/or obese people are in in that condition due to genetic factors.

Posted by: kbm8795

Gosh...that could make them....a small, special interest group.

Posted by: bandaidwoman

I actually see this as an opening for more lawsuits like the one in Ohio.
Like most physicians struggling with an ever-fatter patient population the medical community is walking a fine line between two extremes.

On one side are the lawyers. Earlier this year, an internist in Ohio lost a wrongful death lawsuit involving an obese smoker who died of a heart attack. The jury awarded the family $3.5 million in part because they felt the physician did not do enough to help the man lose weight. The case is being appealed.

Similar cases are pending elsewhere in the United States. And public interest lawyers who are going after fast-food companies for possibly playing a role in the obesity epidemic have said physicians, too, may become targets if they don't do enough to help their patients slim down.

On the other side are members of the fat acceptance movement. These are people who fight to be accepted at the size they are, even if that size is defined medically as a serious health risk.

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Organizations such as the National Assn. to Advance Fat Acceptance and the International Size Acceptance Assn. fight against discrimination on the basis of size in all walks of life, including the exam room.

"There's a lot of anger and mistrust of the medical community within [this] community," said Allen Steadham, director of ISAA. "The weight in and of itself is not a dangerous medical condition. We don't see obesity as a disease."

NAAFA goes so far as to issue guidelines for physicians and other health care professionals on how fat patients should be treated. The organization does not want patients to be automatically weighed. If they do step on the scales, it should be in private.

A doctor can be sued for being callous towards obesity by weighing them in the hall and sued for not doing enough to address it. (whatever that means..ie: not recommending bariatric surgery? Not prescribing wt loss medicines, not referring to a nutrionist? counseling and advocation of good dietary habits and increase in exercise isn't enough.

It's a win win situation for the lawyers.

Posted by: Stickboy

What exactly can a doctor do about if the patient refuses his advice? Nothing. He can't legally make someone improve their health. It's a shame to see doctors being sued because "he didn't do enough to get his patient to lose weight".

I guess kidnapping the patient, chaining them to a treadmill and forcing them to eat healthy will be an acceptable practice in the near future to avoid a lawsuit, eh?

Posted by: OceanDude

Its not as bad as it sounds. Many of the Doctors cry wolf and refer their patients to their other co-partner's health clinics and diagnostic centers and insist on exhaustive and comprehensive testing. The huge bills are then submited to insurance providers for payment. The patient usually gets hit with hefty co-pays and denials then learns he has to pay the difference. Many Doctors' make a ton of indirect money at the same time they publicly cry wolf about law suits and medical malpractise insurance rates. It's all part of the game for a lot of them.

OD

Posted by: bandaidwoman

let's get one thing straight. Doctors get no kickbacks from ordering diagnositic tests. Legally it is not allowed. If a back surgeon somehow owns a MRI facility, he cannot refer any of his own patients to subsidise his MRI facility. In georgia the average plumber makes more than the average doctor, yet malpractice premiums are skyrocketing past what a doc can earn for a living. Two general surgeons here at the facility have already left the state when ST Paul, their malpractice carrier decided it wasn't profitable to be in malpractice. Both have never been sued successfully, both work 95-100 hours a week making no more than 140, 000 and the malpractice premiums were 160,000. They packed up and left.

REMEMBER, IN THE HMO CAPITATED SYSTEM, DOCTORS GET PAID A FIXED FEE AND LESS IS PAID TO A DOCTOR FOR OrDERING MORE TESTS. The more a doctor orders in terms of tests, the less he or she makes. There is no financial incentive for ordering tests. A doctor gets punished for ordering tests, but tests need to be ordered... because many times they are necessary, and many times the patients demand it despite protests.

In West Virginia, there are no cardiologists, since malpractice premiums are above what any cardiologist could make. If you have a heart attack, hope you get a good internist and a fast driver to an out of state hospital.

By the way the average doc in Georgia makes $90,000, the average chiropracter (who doesn't have to get up in the middle of the night makes $100,000, and the average plumber makes $110,000 (at least he has to get up in the middle of the night!

) Of course they don't shoulder the medical school loans which are now averaging over $100,000. Not that docs are hurting, but there are easier ways to make the same amount.
Most still love what they do.

PS. pediatricians in South Georgia make $40,000 a year. My Orkin pest guy makes more than that.

By the way, the aveage orthodontist with a 35 hour work week makes $350,000...just to give some perspective.

Posted by: OceanDude

Quote:

Originally posted by bandaidwoman
let's get one thing straight. Doctors get no kickbacks from ordering diagnositic tests. Legally it is not allowed...

Fair enough BandAidWoman. I was not necessarily referring to legal activities. And please don’t misread me – I am not at all unsympathetic to the political, and legal morass that physicians and surgeons now currently find themselves in. What was once one of the most respected professions in the nation is now becoming closer and closer to the contempt and 7th hell that most of the vulgate would consign lawyers to if given the chance. I see it for what it really is – class envy but we all seem under siege in that department these days. In fact, some of my best and closest friends are physicians. One is an elite brain surgeon, highly regarded by his peers. He is contemplating bailing out rather than caving into mediocrity and being forced by hospital policy to resign his independent control and wellbeing of his patients to managed health care clerks. He tell s me sobering stories of how people with little more than high school degrees look up formulas in insurance books and routinely challenge his diagnosis and procedures he uses to save a persons life and often deny approving expenses for minor tests that would insure that major surgery could be avoided or recovered from sooner.

I guess it’s a mad world out there for all professions and common folk these days. I just happened to know of some enterprising doctors that get indirect fees by setting up trust corps and “investing” in very high end medical equipment that is then leased to colleagues in the diagnostic community. Technically they are not legally partners but they are certainly in a position to agree to whatever lease terms they see fit and provide quid pro quo reciprocation when it comes to referrals. I personally don’t have a big problem with it as long as the rates are comparable with others and the procedures are not completely bogus. I guess I may be guilty of extrapolating and over generalizing. It is probably wrong to think that a large number of doctors are this smart and business savvy and able to find the many legal ways to participate in both ends of the market.

-OD

Posted by: Prince

I wonder how much the average Plastic Surgeon makes!

Posted by: bandaidwoman

Quote:

It is probably wrong to think that a large number of doctors are this smart and business savvy and able to find the many legal ways to participate in both ends of the market

You are right! Most docs just want to go to work and fix people up. In fact, most have very little business saavy and legal smarts....unfortunate in this day and age.

Doctors are like any other profession.... there will always be the disreputable or greedy ones that continue to taint and tarnish what I believe is the greatest calling in the world.

I feel for your neursosurgeon friend, one of the most reputable cardiologist I know retired early when insurance plans started to deny payments for many of his tests. He said he just could not convince the Medical Director of the HMO (a retired dermatologist) why a dopamine stress echo was a better test for an individual than a stress thallium. He could not stomach bbegging and pleading for the rest of his professional career with idiots.

Posted by: Flex

Quote:

Originally posted by naturaltan
I do sympathize with those who are overweight and it is a medical issue.
I cannot sympathize with those using the no time excuse.
I cannot sympathize with those who are overweight and not eating properly
I can sympathize with those who are overweight, eating properly, going to the gym and seeing slow results and wanting to give up.

exactly.

obesity is NOT a disease whatsoever. except for those unfortunate people who have genetic predispositions to carrying lotsa fat.

the biggest problem is that people don't care enough to do anything about it. they eat shit, don't exercize and get fat. then they wonder why???

the other thing is, many people just do not care that they are obese. most would like to change it, but won't.

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