PLEASE tell me you guys are kidding.

Look, anatomically, the biceps IS two muscles. But they share insertion points. So structurally, you cannot isolate the "inner" or "outer" portion. We've all through the course of our lifting careers "felt" like we were doing something, and we can even convince ourselves that we SEE changes. But I'm telling you that it isn't possible anatomically.

no, i'm definitely not kidding.

if i use a close grip, for example, i am not able to peak my bi's at the top of the movement as i am able to when i use a wide grip.

whats so incomprehensible about that?

this is the same arguement that alwasy comes up about inclines not building "upper chest". well guess what. if i were to completely cut out inclines, my upper chest would shrink.

Don't believe me? You don't believe you can isolate a certain part of a muscle? I'll prove it.

take both your hands and "guard your balls" (pardon the expression) as if you were in a wall in soccer. now, flex your pecs as hard as you can. the bottom half and the outer part of my pecs flex real tight and get real hard. but the upper pecs merely tighten a little bit.
now, stick out your arms at a full arms length like you just pushed somebody. flex your pecs as hard as you can. now, my upper pecs flex real tight and get hard, and the lower portions merely get a little tight.

if that doesnt explain something, i don't know what does...

OK, here's a quick discredit to the soccer idea. You're taking a situation where you're rotating your shoulders forard and down. What does this do to your pecs? If your front delt applies downward pressure to your pec, which part of the pec will obviously seem more solid or "used?" Right, the bottom. This doesn't mean in any way that you're isolating a lower pec. Anatomy doesn't lie.

Now as far as incline pressing hitting this mysterious "upper chest", I've said this before but I'll repeat. Genetically, speaking, your front delt may insert very well, or to translate, it may insert under your pec. Yes it happens, no it isn't uncommon. Now physiology says that when you're doing an incline press, you cause a greater recruitment of your front delt than you would in a flat or decline press. And as we all know, stimulation equals hypertrophy. And since you may or may not be one of those people whos delt inserts high, I argue that your delt is growing and pushing up and out on your pec, creating the appearance of an "upper chest." And anatomy and physiology would both agree with me. Unless we're to believe all of a sudden that science is bullshit?

I agree totally... What is all this about making a muscle grow in diffenent ways.. a muscle either all grows or not at all.

UZi9
I know that Saturday fever is very knowledeable (I mean it), but I'm going to have agree with Uzi9 as well.

So you agree with the guy who agrees with me? Good deal.

So you agree with the guy who agrees with me? Good deal.

gopro would tell you that angle of your wrists is causing greater recruitment of the brachialis, which lies under the biceps. By building the muscle that's under your biceps, you would cause your bicep to elevate or "peak."

I don't believe the angle of the wrist can cause that, but I think the idea, in general, is correct. But "peak" has nothing to do with "inner" or "outer."

All I can say is that if I stopped doing incline presses, my upper chest would shrink & get weaker as would my middle & lower chest if I stoppe those presses.

I would lose my bicep peak if all I did was barbell curls.

Don't believe me?

I'm doing 245lbs on incline presses for about 5 reps.

If I stop doing incline presses completely for 6 weeks, come back & ask me how much I could incline bench if I started up again?

I'd be lucky if I could incline bench press 185lbs for 5 reps after 6 weeks of no incline presses of any kind.

yes, you would probably lose some strength, you could say that about any exercise though. but there is no reason that you would lose your "upper pec".

How about when varying your grips while lifting standup barbell curls?
What is your thought on that?

are just saying a narrow or wide grip on a straight barbell? I think you should grap it about shoulder width, or where it feels most comfortable.

if you're talking an ez-curl bar that could make a difference because the bar is cambered which will change the rotation of your hand.

Also I had mentioned that it is important to change your exercise regularly so that your body does not adjust to the same movement.

ok, well, for all you non-believers that you can isolate a part of the muscle, explain this to me......

i only started doing legs 2 years ago. they are my best growing bp. the entire first year or so of doing legs, i pointed my toes outwards. EVERY single exercise, be it squats, leg presses, hacks etc. i pointed my toes/feet outwards.

wouldnt you know......the inside of my quads blew up. they grew great. only problem is the outside of my quads didnt grow.

i changed my footing on all my ex's, so that i now use a narrow stance with feet pointed forward, or even a tad bit inward, and, wouldn't you know.....DAH DAH DAH DAH..............the outside of my quads grew.

explain that to me........

(by the way, the EXACT same thing happened with my calves. i used to only do toes pointed straight or out, and the inside grew. now i do pointed in, and the outside is catching up.....)

Now Saturday...What do you mean when you say that the muscle shares the same insertion point? And if you are correct that the various grip positions should not have any affect what-so-ever on targeting specific muscle points when they share the same insertion point then it would not cause any adverse affects either by altering your grips. And in saying that, in a chance that the grip placement does make a difference, then you have better odds of achieving more uniform growth.

As far as incline presses and upper chest goes, as well as the ability of certain exercises affecting certain areas of certain muscles, well, you certainly know how I feel...no need to revisit. Most certainly, no need.

Also I had mentioned that it is important to change your exercise regularly so that your body does not adjust to the same movement. Saying this, I had people disagree with this as well. I thought this was a know fact.

How about when varying your grips while lifting standup barbell curls?
What is your thought on that?

gopro is the only one that is capable of this miraculous muscle isolation and shaping, mabe he is really on to something .

I do not think anyone here has big enough arms to even worry about this.

Just do fricking curls for christ's sake!

Once you get your arms to 20inches then you can start worrying about the inner and outer...

If all you do is preacher curls, you won't get the same mass & strength as you would from standing barbell curls with the 45lb bar or standing db curls using 65's in each hand.

Sure you'll build up a bit of size but standing barbell curls is the king exercise for biceps just as squats is king for legs.

I've always felt that it's important to do 3 varried curls.
1. either standing barbell or DB curls to build overall size/strength
2. a variation of hammer curls to build additional size & shape
3. either preacher or concentration curls to bring up the peak more.

This is the bicep routine I've always followed in that order & it's never steared me wrong.

No offense or anything but you mis read. I never said I'd lose bicep size if I stopped preachers or concentration curls, I said I'd loose bicep peak if I stopped preachers/concentrations not size.

As I said I can't speak for anyone else in regards to their body, their strength, & their genetics, & their possible steroid use.

I can only speak for myself.

I know my body after training for about 9yrs now.

I've learned what exercises to what to my body, & I've learned proper eating habits that everyone should have especially if they want to grow.

But I know what happens to my body when I stop doing certain exercises for a certain amount of time & what negative affect it has.

I'm not speaking for anyone else here just myself & my training experiences.

I don't want to argue, but as I said I know what exercises do what to my body for me no one else.

& in no way I'm criticising anyone here or have anything against anyone else here, but as I said I know what does what to my body.

Gopro



Who is SNF? Saturday Fever?

If that's what you mean that I guess I haven't learned anything!

But in all seriousness one thing I've learned about training & dieting & so on is that it really is an idividual thing as no 2 individuals are the same.

If you take 5 individuals & put them on the same training program & same diet plan, I bet that each will get different results. Or you might get 2 out of the 5 individuals with "SIMILAR" results but not exactly the same.

That's MO.

You can FEEL whatever you want. If you don't care to know what's actually happening, that's fine. I'm not trying to change your feelings. I'm trying to explain to you what is actually happening. If you really think I'm saying everyone is alike, you've totally misread everything I've posted. Obviously we are all different. Obviously we all have our own skeletal makeup as well as muscular makeup. These differences are what make us unique. What I've told you is why or how things work.

When you say an incline is the only way to keep your "upper chest" that's fine. It's not building this imaginary upper chest, it's building the appearance of an "upper chest" based on where your delt inserts on your skeleton. I'm not going to reexplain what I've said 4 times in the last 3 days, but you can reread it. That's great that doing incline makes you feel like you're developing an "upper chest." You're not, but if you feel you are, great.

Can the anterior delts insert at the sternum?

That's a great example.

EXCEPT THE QUADS AND CALVES BOTH HAVE SEPARATE INSERTION POINTS.

So your argument means absolutely nothing. You have said what I've BEEN saying. Muscles with different insertion points can, anatomically, be targetted. It's in the case of a muscle like the biceps or pecs that have single insertion points all around that it CANNOT be done.

I appreciate you unknowingly backing my opinion.

of course if you point your toes outward you will hit the inside of your legs, BUT that is not part of the quadriceps, you were hitting the adductors.

also, you should always squat, leg press, etc. with toes pointed slightly outward, doing anything else puts a lot of unecessary stress on the knees.

I can't believe this thread is still going on!! This may be the longest one on this topic. I refuse to get into this debate anymore.

I cant believe I missed out on this one! Where are you going, I just got here

I actually have nothing to say on this topic. Well, except SF is right.

P-Funk



Awh, come on dude, I'd like to hear your opinion?

What would happen to your upper chest if you stopped doing incline presses?
Would your upper chest get weaker & smaller or would it grow from solely flat chest presses?

& what would happen to your biceps if all you did was barbbell curls, or all you did was concentration curls & nothing else? Would your biceps still develop fully?


As for getting 20 inch arms, IMO that's only accomplishable with the use of steroids for at least 2-4yrs or more so that's out for the natural ppl.

That forces us natural ppl to train & eat our as$es off the old fashioned way.

& maybe get half or slightly more than half way to 20 inch arms.

P-Funk
As for getting 20 inch arms, IMO that's only accomplishable with the use of steroids for at least 2-4yrs or more so that's out for the natural ppl.

That forces us natural ppl to train & eat our as$es off the old fashioned way.

Because strength is a function of CNS adaption. Obviously there is a limit to the physical loading one can place on a muscle or muscles. But as I stated, you can do exercises that train the same muscle or muscles, and still lose strength in a lift you aren't performing. And that is your CNS.

& what would happen to your biceps if all you did was barbbell curls, or all you did was concentration curls & nothing else? Would your biceps still develop fully?

Just curious, how does your CNS contract to lift up a weight or even move a arm?

Would my chest get smaller if I stopped doing incline work? my answer....NO. I haven't done incline bench press in about 5 or 6 months. funny thing is my chest keeps growing....MY WHOLE CHEST!!

Yeah I would say most body builders using steroids would never admit it.

Duncans Donuts



So you're using 70lbs on your concentration curls in each hand? I guess you're barbell curling 185lbs at least?

I use 50lbs in each hand for concentration curls for about 6 reps & I curl about 145lbs for 3-5 reps slightly cheating on barbell curls.

well can you blame them when it's a felony to possess steroids?

Man, I am sorry, but every time you post I laugh at the level of mental retardation that you are able to achieve.

F*CK Johnnny I DON'T WANT TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR LIFE HISTORY AND YOUR BUDDIES AND THEIR LIFE HISTORIES

No I can't blame them. But a steroid user won't get arrested for telling his friends or other peers about steroids unless he's a cop & even so, there are cops using steroids look at Ronnie Coleman, nobody's arrested him yet.

But I guess those guys with 30+yrs experience don't know anything

But you do follow the same bicep routine as I do. Probably not (though I've done a similiar one). I don't directly train biceps like I used to

What about triceps? They make up 2/3 of the mass in one's upper arm, and most people in a gym fail to realize that that's where 2/3 of one's arm size comes from and therefore should be trained as much if not more than biceps.

close-grip, e-zbar extensions of some sort, & tricep pushdowns of some sort? All of the above

Just because I think your a moron, doesnt mean I think someone else is. I dont group people because of a similar thought that they have, like you and the nazi's.

rock4832



What a poor immature little kid you are. I guess you don't have anything better to do than put me down. I feel bad for you.

If you want to insult ppl, go back to highschool or better yet kindergarten as you just showed your true mentality.

The point of this is the grips, angles & so on, not to insult ppl.

You are also proving you don't know anything either other wise you would've answered some of my questions.

Says a lot about your character.

Terok' Nor

wow defensive aren't we?

Are we hiding something perhaps?

As for sharing life history, I did nothing of the sort, I mentioned one friend who was a constant weight of 215lbs & then all of a sudden exploded to 245lbs.

As for the 4 individuals with 20 arms I refer to, they aren't my friends, just ppl I talk to once in awhile nor do I hang out with them.

You just have to luv resident "experts" like Saturday. Are you kidding me? Of course the grip makes a difference as to which part of the muscle that is hit, i've experienced the differences many times.

Its like watching the retarded neighbor kid walk into the wall repeatedly.

I read that link. I suggest you dense as fuck retards reread it yourselves. Pay special attention to the specific wording that is used. Again, you dumb fucks have backed what I've been saying, and again idadvertently. Why do you keep doing this to yourselves?

Now this whole "bodybuilder vs powerlifter physique" and Johnny's apparently infinite knowledge and friends that cover every possible aspect in life. Despite having friends in every single aspect of life, you apparently are blind. Have you ever seen a top level powerlifter on a diet similar to a bodybuilder? One who maybe gives two shits about bodyfat and whatnot? There are a few. And quite frankly, if you don't think their physique dwarfs most bodybuilders, you're in denial. But that would be stating the obvious.

Since you've decided to ride gopro and DiMaggio (although if you actually read what DiMaggio said you'd see he says you're wrong) in your argument, as evidenced by you trying to validate what you say by saying it's what they say (which is an absolutely HORRIBLE debate technique), I figured maybe I'd let you in on something. Take a look at DiMaggio's physique. It's in his avatar. Then take a look at Phil Harrington's physique. They are about the same height and weight. And their physiques are damn near IDENTICAL! How can this possibly be using your ridiculous logic (although it's anything BUT logic)?? I mean, how the fuck can a bodybuilder and a powerlifter have identical physiques? Oh, that would be because they're two guys who diet healthy and , assumingly, very similarly.

But, I'm sure you know a guy at your gym who says you have to do curls with your ring finer pointing outward and one foot off the ground if you really want the inner upper biceps to grow. So you'll disregard this whole post, as usual, and start talking about your thyroid problem again. But that's what you do.

And next time you use a phrase like "Point made", please try to actually make a point instead of spewing shit. Thanks.

WOW! Guys, use your various grips, exercises, and angles...it works...and even if it didn't work for the reasons we believe, it sure makes training more interesting

LMAO....sleeve busting arms!! Is that a medical term? Who writes this garbage.