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Opinions on 2nd cycle.


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Posted by: Michael D

Hi. I am considering running another cycle even though my first was pretty crappy as far as gains go. 25mg/day dbol weeks 1-5, 500mg/week for 7weeks and 750mg/week Enan for weeks 8-12. Then 6 weeks of Nolva.

I am thinking of Sustanon this time along with Deca(for my joints). I don't want to do eod injects so Sustanon seemed to be a choice with its shorter esters(compared to Enan). Would I still need to do an oral to kick things off? What is the minimum deca dosage for joints I could get away with?

My last shot was at the end of July. If I do another one, I was thinking of starting it around Dec or Jan.

Any suggestions on dosage. I am 6'2" @ 185lbs. Thanks.


Posted by: ZorroAzul

IMHO, on the testosterone I'd just go with 750/week 1-12 or 500/week 1-12, your call..... no need to up the dose @ week 8... K.I.S.S. works wonderfully!

or maybe 500 test/week, 400/deca.... so you won't get that much test side effects.

of course, run HCG during cycle, 500 iu E4D. shoot it with a slin pin.


Posted by: Mudge

Dbol rocks my world even at 25mg (which is what I was doing last). Sustanon has shorter esters so anal people do EOD injects with it, where as enanthate can be shot 1-2 times weekly as opposed to 3.5 times weekly, again it all depends how anal you are.


Posted by: deeno

i second that...no need to up the dosage...
750mg/week IMO is more then you need, especially for ur second cycle..
stick with 500, i think u'll see the same results...


Posted by: LAM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael D
Hi. I am considering running another cycle even though my first was pretty crappy as far as gains go. 25mg/day dbol weeks 1-5, 500mg/week for 7weeks and 750mg/week Enan for weeks 8-12. Then 6 weeks of Nolva.

I am thinking of Sustanon this time along with Deca(for my joints). I don't want to do eod injects so Sustanon seemed to be a choice with its shorter esters(compared to Enan). Would I still need to do an oral to kick things off? What is the minimum deca dosage for joints I could get away with?

My last shot was at the end of July. If I do another one, I was thinking of starting it around Dec or Jan.

Any suggestions on dosage. I am 6'2" @ 185lbs. Thanks.
the tiny amouts of the short esters in Sust don't make a difference. Most people find keeping blood levels easier with enanthate or cypionate vs Sust.

you say your gains were crappy. why was that ? did you not eat sufficeint calories ?


Posted by: TrojanMan60563

Hey Mike D....I've heard that you can get the Deca joint lube effect off as little as 200-300mg per week. I've read that the best way to take deca is 2mg per pound of body weight. So for you I would say 300-400mg should do the job. I would only run it 10 out of the 12 weeks your on. If your going to run Enanthate anyways. If I'm not mistaken Deca has a longer ester then enanthate. So to aid in recovery time I would stop a couple weeks before the test. I forget what test amount you used last cycle but I think 600mg of enanthate is a good dose for a second cycle. I've thought of doing a cycle like this for my second cycle.

1-12 600mg enanthate
1-10 400mg deca
1-4 30mg naposim

run HCG for the last three weeks 500iu E4D
Nolva 40mg ED for first week of PCT. Then lowering the dose to 20mg for the next 5 weeks.

This looks to me like a solid simple cycle. First I have to finish my first cycle where I left off. My plans are in a month or two to run prop for 12 weeks all by itself.


Posted by: ZorroAzul

Trojan I second everything except why use the HCG E4D on the last 4 weeks only?? I rather avoid the problem instead of treating the symptons...and I do not know how well 500iu E4D will work to TREAT testicular athropy. I know it does prevent it, but as far as treatment I've always read 3,000 iu, then 2,000 iu E5D the 2 weeks before PCT.


Posted by: LAM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deeno
i second that...no need to up the dosage...
750mg/week IMO is more then you need, especially for ur second cycle..
stick with 500, i think u'll see the same results...
ditto...750 mg/wk is a lot of test for a 185 lber...


Posted by: Michael D

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAM
the tiny amouts of the short esters in Sust don't make a difference. Most people find keeping blood levels easier with enanthate or cypionate vs Sust.

you say your gains were crappy. why was that ? did you not eat sufficeint calories ?
I figured with Sust, I would see a quicker gain but I guess not. And I don't know why my gains sucked. I should have eaten more but even my strength only went up 30lbs on the bench. I did get sick about 3 times on the cycle so that didn't help. In all, I put on 15lbs of bodyweight but lost 10 of that and that was keeping my calories up and my workouts intense. That is why I am not even sure whether I want to run a cycle but am getting some opinions now to be prepared later.


Posted by: deeno

for your next cycle, record what you eat and calories that you take in...if it needs tweeking im sure the guys on the forum will have no problems helping you out...


Posted by: JerseyDevil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael D
I should have eaten more but even my strength only went up 30lbs on the bench. I did get sick about 3 times on the cycle so that didn't help. In all, I put on 15lbs of bodyweight but lost 10 of that and that was keeping my calories up and my workouts intense. That is why I am not even sure whether I want to run a cycle but am getting some opinions now to be prepared later.
Did you do some PH cycles before trying gear? A lot of people who have had PH experience beforehand, including myself, don't get quite the increases of someone with completely fresh androgen receptors. I did 3 M1T cycles before a test prop cycle, and my bench went up 35 lbs... I was happy with that though. I gained 17 lbs, which I kept 10-12 lbs so far.

I concur with Zorro. I'd use the hcg 250iu's E3D throughout the cycle. Start it maybe two weeks in, and continue two weeks after your last shot.


Posted by: Michael D

I did buy one bottle of testabol but decided after that to go with the good stuff directly after.

And definately will be using HCG this time.

BTW, I was looking over some earlier posts and and it seems there may be some confusion. I upped the dosage my first cycle but hadn't planned on it with my second one.


Posted by: Pirate!

I intend to do this for my second, although I might go for 12 weeks--instead of 10:

Test enanthate weeks 1-10, 250mg twice weekly
Deca weeks 1-10, 200mg twice weekly
Dbol weeks 1-4, 30mg ED
Nolvadex weeks 1-12 10mg ED(or femera .25 mg ED)
HCG weeks 1-12, 250iu's twice weekly
Nolva weeks 13 & 14, 60mg ED
Nolva weeks 15 & 16, 30mg ED


Posted by: TrojanMan60563

Hey Pirate I was only planning on running the HCG for 3 weeks due to I read that you can cause problems if you run it too long or in too high of doses. I can't recall exactly what high dose or long use does, but it sounded unpleasant. I could swear I read that it shouldn't be used for longer then 3 week stretches.


Posted by: Pirate!

There are different theories on it, but the latest research I have read suggests that low doses are most important for not killing your leydig cells. Also, preventing atrophy is preferable to rectifying it after the fact. I'm no expert on it, but I have read a lot on proper HCG protocal (from HRT doctors). I'm sure Mudge can give you references.


Posted by: TrojanMan60563

Yeah I hear ya....I would start sooner if I noticed a change in testicle size. Otherwise I would wait closer to the end of the cycle.


Posted by: LAM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateFromHell
There are different theories on it, but the latest research I have read suggests that low doses are most important for not killing your leydig cells. Also, preventing atrophy is preferable to rectifying it after the fact. I'm no expert on it, but I have read a lot on proper HCG protocal (from HRT doctors). I'm sure Mudge can give you references.
High doses of HCG are safe but only for short periods of time. many people use the following protocol for PCT.

Week 1 : HCG @ 5,000 iu/wk & Nolva @ 20 mg/ED
Week 2 : HCG @ 5,000 iu/wk & Nolva @ 20 mg/ED
Week 3 : HCG @ 2,500 iu/wk & Nolva @ 20 mg/ED
Week 4: Nolva @ 20 mg/ED
Week 5: Nolva @ 20 mg/ED


Posted by: Pirate!

Yeah, I am going with 250 iu twice a week on my first cycle and will see how it goes. I probably won't start for atleast two weeks though. I know that high doses for the three weeks is the more traveled route.


Posted by: JerseyDevil

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAM
High doses of HCG are safe but only for short periods of time. many people use the following protocol for PCT.

Week 1 : HCG @ 5,000 iu/wk & Nolva @ 20 mg/ED
Week 2 : HCG @ 5,000 iu/wk & Nolva @ 20 mg/ED
Week 3 : HCG @ 2,500 iu/wk & Nolva @ 20 mg/ED
Week 4: Nolva @ 20 mg/ED
Week 5: Nolva @ 20 mg/ED
According to Swale, the HRT doc, this method is a bad way to go due to the fact any more than 500iu of HCG per day causes too way much aromatase activity. It is far better, and cheaper, to run small doses throughout the cycle.


Posted by: Pirate!

Swale's PCT protocol

I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

Thought this would shed a little light on all the HCG questions during cycle.


Posted by: LAM

what does he say about using HCG as part of PCT ? I know guys who have been competing for the past 20 year and follow the HCG/Nolvadex protocol that I posted with no adverse effects..


Posted by: Mudge

One thing to comment on, how much aromatase activity do you think occurs on a gram of test

I do feel AI helps me with recovery, but who knows.


Posted by: Pirate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAM
what does he say about using HCG as part of PCT ? I know guys who have been competing for the past 20 year and follow the HCG/Nolvadex protocol that I posted with no adverse effects..
I don't know. He discusses it on a forum called CEM. I've read some debates he has been in, but I can't seem to find what I am looking for right now.


Posted by: JerseyDevil

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAM
what does he say about using HCG as part of PCT ? I know guys who have been competing for the past 20 year and follow the HCG/Nolvadex protocol that I posted with no adverse effects..
He doesn't like it. In down home talk "It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on."

I've read other posts of his, that I can't seem to locate, but he was more adamant about not waiting until the testes have shrunk before starting treatment. The protocol you described Lam definitely works, but like I said it is more expensive and creates a lot of estrogen. Low dose shots throughout, are less expensive and prevents the problem before it starts....

Even AFTER a cycle, and if your testicles shrink, then he recommends 250-500iu's a day until they come back. I know because that is exactly what he recommended to me in a PM. I did a 10 week cycle, no problem. But I'm on HRT and much to my surprise a few weeks after the cycle and on maintenance Androgel, my balls shrunk big time. I followed his advice and within about 10 days of 250 iu's ed, they are fine. I will never do another cycle without 250 iu's of hcg E3 or 4D. As Barney Fife used to say... nip it in the bud Andy!


Posted by: TrojanMan60563

I think starting HCG right from the start is a waste. I would wait until atleast mid cycle to start. It takes a while for your balls to shrink up.


Posted by: JerseyDevil

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojanMan60563
I think starting HCG right from the start is a waste. I would wait until atleast mid cycle to start. It takes a while for your balls to shrink up.
I'll probably start it 2-3 weeks in. Like I said, you want to start it before they start to shrink. A 5,000iu vial will last you 10 weeks with twice weekly 250iu shots.


Posted by: TrojanMan60563

JD that sounds reasonable. IYO whats the difference between 250iu twice a week vs 500iu E4D.


Posted by: Mudge

The idea is to use the minimum neccessary.


Posted by: TrojanMan60563

Mudge is 500iu E4D considered a high dose?


Posted by: Pirate!

I think the dose would depend a lot on what you are running. I would probably only use 250 iu twice weekly for 500 mg test. But if you throw Deca 400 in the mix, 250 EOD sounds better (but only if I felt this much was necessary at the time). I was thinking about starting the HCG at least 2-3 weeks in and running it for 10 weeks like JD said, so a 5000 iu would last until PCT starts on a ten weeker.



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