Originally Posted by PreMier

Interesting. What exactly constitutes 'gelatin'?

Originally Posted by PreMier

Whats the reason for DXM? Sleep?

Originally Posted by Dante B.

From your recently abandoned journal:

Selegiline in non MAO-B selective doses along with a PEA source (Chocamine, for example) works quite well for me; a selegeline transdermal is currently being pushed through the FDA pipeline.

Find that people who are atypically depressed are generally incapable of finding any middle ground in perception and action: hyper, then totally burnt out/up, down/manic, suicidal/ back and forth. Then you get the often debilitating psychosomatic symptoms.

Has been the way for me since I was a kid - plagued with migraines (when younger at least), severely phobic (had to have rail guards on the bed because I was afraid of falling out), obsessive, and so on.

Cognitive behavioral therapy can work quite well. When you're active, you have to prevent yourself from getting so carried away that you get burnt out. Stop yourself from getting too far ahead of yourself when you're energetic and active, and you'll reduce the severity of the downs. I was born a sprinter, not an endurance athlete, apparently.

So when you're feeling great, that's when you have to be mindful of your surroundings and internal process.

Something to consider. If you're like me, then you'll also find alcohol to be pure poison, in any amount. I avoid it, because even a few drinks is enough to severely depress my system with a carry-over effect pouring into the next day; even if I don't get drunk, my system is trashed nevertheless.




NMDA receptor antagonists. But as several people pointed out, you'll also reduce the subjective effects of focus and energy. So there's a trade-off.

Dep, PEA and nicotine keeps it going for me. Along with a stoic oulook on life - though, that's my approach, and I can't tell someone to "be stoic!"

Originally Posted by Monolith

Interesting to hear some feedback on the dep + PEA. How does it affect your mood? I mean, is it on par with a good anti-depressent, or is it along the lines of amphetamine? I'm curious, since i think it was in Novicks deprenyl article that he likened PEA to an endogenous amphetamine.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

What do you mean by "good antidepressant." Few things positively and noticeabley affect me. I like Dep and PEA because it's strong enough to make a difference, but mild enough so as not to elicit negative reactions (I avoid amphetamines and such, because I wouldn't be able to control myself - a recent experience with meth reminded me of that).

PEA isn't orally available without an MAO-B inhibitor.

As far as mood, I'm simply more balanced. But I have other personality quirks that I don't want to get into, so what works for me, and what I experience, isn't necessarily going to be the case for others even if general symptoms are shared.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Dep has been studied for atypical and major depression - there's renewed interest in MAOI's (selegline, maclobemide) that don't carry the risks associated with the classic inhibitors; with transdermal delivery you avoid the potential for tyramine reactions with non-selective doses.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Exactly. I learned to control myself during my highs so I wouldn't put myself at risk. I'd take on so much, read through so many books (etc), then later put myself in a position where I was incapable of doing anything.

I rely on meditation (far beyond mere relaxation techniques) to keep everything moving, without letting myself get out of hand; I accomplish far more when I spent my time meditating, instead of researching drugs. If you know what you're doing, you can teach yourself to induce trips and trances, among other things. Your body is a pharmacy, and your brain is in charge of the prescriptions.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

No. Because I rarely drink - alcohol isn't a feel-good drug for me. Since I no longer work for Avant, I rarely spend my time looking into supplements and strategies. I'm out of the loop.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Also:

Have you ever read The Discources of Epictetus, and the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius?

As with the Bible, merely reading the books won't do you any good if you're a saint on Sunday and a forgetful sinner the following week. Whenever you're high or low, read through them and apply the thoughts to yours, then yours to theirs - see if there's a constrast between what you 'know' and what you're doing. Stoic philosophy was the ancients' cognitive therapy. So it's not something to simply read and discuss, like the Christians who talk to talk about the good book and spend their time drinking and fucking like infidels. An active approach to well-being doesn't end when you leave the psych's office, or shut the medicine cabinet.

It's a constant process. Years ago when I was twenty (I'm 27, now), stoic philosophy made a great impact on me: how I perceived, acted. But, it's something that has to be continually applied and renewed; emotions, reactions and thoughts have to be repeatedly stripped down before they spin you in circles. When I run on autopilot, and act as if I "know" what I need to know, I soon forget, confusing knowing with believing, ending up where I began.

So, take the time when you have it to sit down and analzye your thoughts; stoicism is merely a useful tool to help you reduce and reintegrate them - it doesn't give you the answers, it allows you to soundly arrive at your own.

Originally Posted by Arnie's left nu

Hey monolith, what does a 3/0/2 tempo mean?

Originally Posted by Monolith

On the eccentric portion of a lift (e.g. when lowering the bar to your chest on a bench press), you lower with a "count" of 3. The 0 marks the length of the pause at the bottom of that eccentric motion. The 2 marks the speed of the concentric portion (pushing the bar from your chest).

Originally Posted by Arnie's left nu

yeah, i knew it was something like that. thx

Pretty detailed stuff. Are you trying to gain mass and lower bf% at the same time?

Originally Posted by Dante B.

It's not a matter of controlling emotions - rather, reviewing thought content and circumstances. It's easy to control your emotions when you're too tired to do anything. When you're on amphetamines, or when you have a manic upswing, then you have an accurate test of your skills.

That's not an insult - just have to keep things in perspective. When I observe people on drugs, I often think that those who appear wise and sane aren't so out of design and willpower, but only by chance. Give a shy person enough coke, a person who's normally perceived as being respectful and kind, and you'll see that he wasn't the creator of his default state. It was an accident, a reaction - but not a creation. So he has no control when the chemicals shift in another direction.

It isn't an either/or - sitting down pondering absurdities that aren't of relevance to who you are and what you want isn't philosophical thought; it's a disease. Just as acting "in the moment" doesn't have to be a blind state of acting that's divorced from an understanding of intentions and outcomes.

But it certainly takes time and practice to know and experience that balance. When people (speaking in general) complain of "thinking too much," I translate that as: "spend too much time dwelling on irrelevant bullshit."

When I'm talking about taking the time to think, I'm not talking about dwelling on bullshit. And everything is bullshit if you can't make use of it, and if it doesn't hold the prospect of making you better for pondering it.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

No. I don't believe in reading books when it comes to meditation, beyond the basics which you likely can find on the 'net (breathing techniques, so on). Then you have to take it from there, on your own. It certainly is daydreaming for most - what would you expect, a person who's a fool in thought to be wise in practice and action? Interpreting a rich experience for what it is, even if they're a fool? As it happens with the typical acidhead - they claim to have learned, but have nothing to show for it; the problem wasn't the experience, it was the interpreter. So I avoid all of those books, for that reason. I figured it out on my own.

In general, just think of this:

When you're high, or in a good mood, can you feel the areas of your brain (even if not in region-specific detail) that are active or suppressed? And contrast that to what you're feeling when you're anxious or miserable?

Remember those patterns - just as the thoughts of something that pleases you (a loved one, a song, going to a favorite hang out spot in an hour) evokes a noticeable and distinct reaction and image. When you're meditating, recall those patterns, the different regions that were active or suppressed in a moment that you can recall. If you can't recall any specific moments, then the next time you're incredibly anxious, depressed, or, excited, take note of what you're feeling and where - as you would with a headache (e.g. "I feel pressure up front," "there's a sharp pain in the middle.")

Then, when your thoughts shift (something that takes you from miserable to elated, or elated to depressed), feel what's going on in your head; feel, I didn't say think about it. As you would change what you're thinking about (e.g. "I shouldn't let this get to me, in two hours I'm going to hang out with Bob and I won't be worrying about this nonsense')," learn to do the same with the patterns.

In certain states, you can actively manipulate different regions of the brain; transcendental meditation is very real, although the reasons, purposes and experiences told by others is most definitely often sheer nonsense (certain areas of the brain have been identified with out-of-body experiences and the like - it doesn't come to follow that a person's experience isn't real, just because they attribute it to "universal consciousness," the hand of God, or inter-dimensional peregrinations).

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Who told you to be a stoic? It's not an end, or a goal. What, you think that stoicism only serves a purpose if you wish to transform yourself into fucking Spock?

It's something for yourself, to do what you will with it, regardless of what other people do or don't understand. It shouldn't be used to deaden your emotions. Rather, when you're excited or depressed, then you know if you're suffering or experiencing joy for the wrong reasons. It's to clarify perceptions and reactions, not eliminate them.

Instead of being "happy," "anxious," "sad," and whatever else. Why? Who knows, not even you. Then you have no control over the experience, the perception, or the ability to transform a negative experience (or situation) into something else, or the capacity to sustain a positive high. You're simply taken back and forth with circumstances that you don't understand and can't control - you just react. Why? Who knows, not even you. That's where stoicism plays a role.

And I understood your rant Trust me, if I went off, I could outrant you any day. I'm not sure if that's something I should be bragging about.

Hopefully I'm not hijacking your journal - started off with the intent to drop some basic observations, and leave.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Let's restate this:

Would a psychiatrist prescribe thorazine to a person who was temporarily down after the loss of a job?

Simple put:

If you're happy with who you are, what you're doing, and what's happening at the moment, why fix what isn't broken. Even if I don't agree with that person's life or conception of good living, if they're happy, then that's all they need to know.

If you're "living for the moment," constantly burning yourself out and dealing with consequences that you can't handle and didn't expect, do you have a problem?

If you spend so much time thinking and worrying about this or that, but never experiencing the moments you wish you live, is there a problem?

If so, in either case, what should you do?

Originally Posted by Dante B.

That goes for thinking, and anything in general. Even if something is good for you, you have to know why - in action and belief - not just in words, if you're going to make use of it.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

You only need to go as far as necessary to achieve the desired results. A person who's happy in general, but a little stressed, is better off with simple relaxation techniques. They have no reason to go deeper, just as a person who's slightly depressed isn't in need of lithium.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Great! I'm glad you figured that out - relevance. What you learn through meditation is to be applied to what you're perceiving and experiencing daily. Unlike the acidheads who speak of their "wonderful and enlightening trips," acting and suffering like the fools they are when they're not tripping. What's learned is what's applied. Knowledge without an application isn't knowledge.

On a day to day basis, the overall goal is to avoid being overwhelmed by things that shouldn't get to you - to identity problems as they occur, without being paralyzed with anxiety. Simply, to experience and control a moment without losing focus of intentions and outcomes.

How far you have to go into the process is determined by the severity of your problems.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Definitely. Which is rather unfortunate.

I spoke of meditation in general, as a technique, as with cognitive therapy. There's no reason to go too far into something if you're generally happy with what you have now; anything more would be masturbation, or useless, like the fucking acidheads and their trips, or the melding with the universal consciousnesss balderdash.

Trip after trip, but what to show for it?

The statement in essence is:

You do have some control over your life and experiences - perceptions and reactions. Certain techniques allow you to realize that potential and meaningfully apply it.

I'm certainly not telling you to avoid prescription drugs and psychiatrists. I want that to be clear. I despise the "pychiatry is a bunch of bullshit" movement. But, there are things you can do on your own, as an adjunct to treatment.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Yes.

Your emotions, though; your life, your goals. Think of stoicism merely as a tool. For what end you're applying those tools is for you to figure out. But a sculptor, whether a creative genius or a fool, won't get far without a chisel.

If you're not happy with what you've thus far created, then you have to reassess your approach and the contents of your toolbag. You wouldn't do so just for the sake of it.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

So long as I'm not messing up your journal. As I said, I'm not preaching. I generally don't even like to discuss any of this, beyond the basics (recommending cognitive therapy, etc).

My approach has nothing to do with: Man, this is so far out! Check it out dude!!!

Do what's necessary, and only what's necessary in relation to your goals and circumstances. You wouldn't give your friend a hit of acid if he simply wanted to cool down with a beer after a hard day of work.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

I should add that my direct purpose isn't to achieve these states - rather, it's an indirect method where I learned to combat suicidal ideation, severe panic attacks, and other debilitating psychological states; situations where I can't afford to spent too much time in the hole. My body and mind have been shot to shit over the past months, I've lost 50 fucking pounds because of it - muscle, not fat - so obviously I've been forced to take a more intensive approach again.

So, your practice and approach runs only as deep as the sanity you're endeavoring to retrieve or sustain. Efficiency is the ultimate goal.

Originally Posted by JerseyDevil

Damn, it's good to see you posting at IM again Dante.... And like I said in the past Mono, you are much more articulate then many people here realize.

"I took my dog Brownie for a walk. He pooped on my neighbor's lawn" has so much more meaning now .

Originally Posted by Monolith

The supplements/drugs...

Multi vit, extra calcium, extra magnesium, extra vit C, extra B complex.
300mg bupropion (wellbutrin) ED
150mg venlafaxine (effexor) ED
20-30mg adderall 3x day
50-60mg dextromethorphan (DXM) 1x night (not dosed concurrently with adderall; on an opposite day/night schedule)

May be adding selegiline (deprenyl) in at 5mg ED, but "deprenyl mk II" (rasagiline) is supposed to finally get FDA approved at the end of this year, so i might just wait for that.

May be adding in memantine (namenda) in at 10mg ED as replacement for DXM.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Do you want me to tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing and enjoying? I can't.

I can only point out the flaws in your own thinking, when you're talking about your vision of happiness.

If you're content to sit down, sit. If you're happy staying there, stay. If you want to go out and mix it up, do so.

Once you articulate (at least to yourself) what you desire, and what you're aiming for, then you'll see if your actions are taking you in the right or wrong direction.

Unless you're going to tell me that you're happy sitting down pondering the meaning of life, even if you're upset that you're single and alone. But what if having friends and a social circle is one of your distant goals?

Originally Posted by Dante B.

What if you're sitting down pondering the meaning of life for weeks on end, forgetting your responsibilities at work?

Originally Posted by Dante B.

If you're happy with what you're doing, in any stage, dealing with the consequences, fine. If you're happy on your ass, but not happy that you're starving, where did you go wrong?

Originally Posted by Monolith

How do you determine the "true" baseline for which to try and center your emotional spectrum?

Originally Posted by Dante B.

But if I want to be clear-minded and free of distraction, am I contradicting myself if everyone distracts and angers me?

Yes. Then I have to see what I'm reacting to, and if my response is appropriate. I couldn't answer, "Yes, it is appropriate," if it's followed with, "but I've been so upset for the past two weeks, I haven't been able to concentrate on my homework."

You can't fabricate an outlook on life or a system of belief. Don't confuse me on those terms. All I can point out is the steps to arrive at your own.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

How you view yourself and what you expect of yourself is a reflection of how you perceive others and the world around you. How you define intelligence, respect, and other related aspects of personality and worth determines how you act.

If people define "intelligence" as the human equivalent of an encyclopedia, it won't surprise me if you follow accordingly after tacitly accepting those terms.

We all act for our own good; few of us know how we've defined "good."

Originally Posted by Monolith

How far do you think you can go? And isnt the temptation to find out almost overwhelming?

Originally Posted by Dante B.

All you could attempt to point out is the contradiction, if any, between my actions and expectations.

"I want to see how far I can go with this drug," followed by, "man, I'd really like to get out of this field and find better work." If this man spends too much time on cloud nine, it isn't likely that he'll be acting upon those goals; there's no relation between what he wants and what he does. Whatever he "does," is irrelevant, if we look at it in the context of what else he desires.

Even if his actions are beneficial and necessary, it may not be so if we consider the frequency and extent of those actions. One drink is nice if I want to relax, should I go for the entire keg?

What's necessary is what's needed to achieve a defined end. What you consider the proper end for you as an individual is irrelevant to me; just as my ends are irrelevant to you, or should be.

But, we can discuss steps.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

I medicate myself with my goals in mind. I wouldn't use, say, LSD, just for the fuck of it - again and again. To see how far I can push it - push what? To where? Without any goal in mind?

Then you can critize my actions in relation to a goal.

Originally Posted by Monolith

I'd recognize my current state as the proper one, with no urge to remove myself from that mindset. How do you manage to force yourself into recognizing that suicidal hole as an improper one?

Originally Posted by Dante B.

If you have a valid reason to feel a certain way after given circumstances, does it follow that your subsequent reaction in intensity and duration is proper?

Unless you're telling me and telling yourself that you're happy living in that hole, and that it serves a purpose. What are you reacting to? What are you thinking and feeling when you're suicidal?

"This person did that to me." "I wanted this and received something else instead."

Even if your point is valid, I doubt you'll argue that your response necessarily is.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Feel that way, according to whom? For what reasons?

"I'm not supposed to be sad, because the man on the TV is happy with his large house and the white picket fence. I have those things, but I'm not happy."

Even with:

"I worked hard to put this project in motion, but everything collapsed and no one recognized the validity and value of my input."

Perhaps so. Then what will you do? Is there another way around it? If not, another avenue? Did you do everything you could, even in how you presented those ideas?


Suffering for what? Praise - then whose? Anyone's? "No, only acknowledgment from those I respect." How do you define respect when you're judging if someone's worth of it?

Anxiety and depression, like physical pain, are sensations. They're useful, because you wouldn't learn to respect fire and take precautions before entering a burning house if you didn't have a prior conception of the sensory consequences.

If you're burned, using morphine to dull the pain, will it serve a purpose if you haven't learned to stop putting your hand in the stove? Or if you need to, not without a glove?

It's no different with meditation. It can be used to dull pain, and to learn the source of it; both remedy and prevention.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

I apologize if this is incoherent. I'm having a difficult time relating, because I've never thought in terms of what I'm supposed or not supposed to be feeling. And I'm just out of it mentally. There's a reason why I stayed away from the boards...

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Will it? With a magic wand? No.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Something to think about when you're discussing "happiness," sadness, depression, or whatever mental state - even with yourself - or reading books speaking on such matters.

Reminds me of the women who'll wax poetic about love, and their current lover, soon after saying, "He doesn't listen, he doesn't respect me, he treats me like shit, and his eyes wander everywhere but about me."

Striving and suffering for a string of words, certainly not for ideas that are translated and understood in application and impact. The 40 year old executive who has all the ingredients for 'happiness', but wakes up one day wondering what's the damned point? Yep.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Is any of this making sense? I can keep going on and on, so you'd better tell me when to shut up if I start to ruin your journal.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

Didn't address the following - misread several statements (going off on unrelated tangents), just out of it. My practice, I gather:

...

That's understandable. It's a mistake to define, or endeavor to define, a purpose in specifics.

Examples:

"I'd be happy if I was working for this company, having this job, owning these things."

Instead: it's the essence that I define. The various processes of reasoning and doing that I enjoy - which may be applied to many ends, high and low.

Ask yourself: what do I see in the world and in people that's corrupt, and what do I see that isn't. You'll likely arrive at several answers (of your own) that you weren't explicitly aware of.

When a thought, a person, or a situation makes you happy, take a step back to analyze it. This gets back to what we said before: when you're full of life, that's when you have to be mindful of your states and surroundings.

People tend to take their happier moments for granted, "living for the moment" - not understanding what that "moment" is in contrast to the mundane. When it's over, then they're lost.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

I'm not a fan of the 'better living through chemistry' mentality, for reasons peppered about this thread.

Every positive or negative experience, even when sober, can serve the purpose. If a person's turning to acid and the like to open up the possibilities, while consistently ignoring the conscious experience, they'd be better off without the drugs.

I generally avoid recreational drugs, save antidepressants. If "conscious reality" is enough to disturb me, then there's enough information for me to learn from. I don't wait for the "happy moments," to learn.

Originally Posted by Dante B.

I simply remind myself that there are reasons why I continue to exist - that I have defined, not others - so if everything falls apart, that essence to everything I perceive and do still remains, even if I've lost the form.

Or: I know why I'm alive, and why I bother, not simply that I am and do.

If you enjoyed being a social worker, for example, and the city you worked in was burned to the ground, you'd be sad. Maybe depressed. Possibly suicidal.

But, the essence of that work remains, and there are other cities to create a form for that essence with; that essence could even be applied to other potential jobs and situations, if jobs as a social worker are hard to cross. If everything goes horribly wrong - the form collapses - the material to breath life into another one remains, even if it's difficult to gather yourself together; but at least you'll know why you're taking the trouble to compose yourself. Think of your life and yourself like that.

Certainly takes time, though, to learn to see through an intense suicidal ideation or severe panic attacks. But, it requires an actual belief, not a recital of what makes you happy.

You know what's real - to you - and what's an illusion, when the moment comes and you stop yourself from pulling the trigger.

Repeat the delusion, and it will be just a matter of time before you're cowering before the jury again. I'm not a fan of the "cry for help" camp. They're asking for a reason to live - they're not simply stating, "I know why I'm here, but I'm having difficulties getting on track and staying there." Even with these people, they may be suffering for the wrong reasons - rather, what they consider "happiness," is the cause, because it's irrational and unattainable.

A TV image, a string of words, which they've never translated. "Mikey likes it! But I don't. Why don't I, why can't I. Everyone else does. Or they seem to. Or that's what they tell me. The problem is me I guess."