Thoughts on an M1T/4DERM stack [Forum Archive]

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Thoughts on an M1T/4DERM stack

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Posted by: DOMS

OK, I've read up on hormone, PHs, PCT, and protecting the liver.

I've come up with the following cycle and I'm looking for some input.

Weeks
___________0_______ 1_______ 2 _______3 _______4 _______ 5 _______6
___________|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|
M1T ________________|-----------------------------|
4DERM ______________|---------------------------------------|
Milk Thistle _|-----------------------------------------------------------|
Howthorn __|-----------------------------------------------------------|
Nolva

Amounts per day:
M1T: 5mg oral per day for the first week and 10mg per day for the next two
4DERM: 400mg spray per day
Milk Thistle: 1000mg per day
Hawthorn Berry: 1500mg per day
Nolva: 40mg if gyno shows up

So, what do you think?

Thanks for any advice.

Posted by: musclepump

You should take Nolva PCT regardless of gyno symptoms.

Posted by: DOMS

Starting from the second week until the end of the last?

Posted by: musclepump

You start PCT once you're off all of your gear/PH/PS. Once you're completely finished with your cycle of M1T/4Derm, start your Nolva/Thistle/Hawthorne.

Posted by: DOMS

Shouldn't I take the milk thistle and hawthorne the whole time. Including a week before I start any PH? Isn't the point to protect the liver while taking PH?

Posted by: musclepump

You can. A lot of people take Milk Thistle before their cycle to build up their liver enzymes, then go off during their cycle because taking it on cycle "May" reduce the effect of what you're taking. Some people are cool with that. Personally, I'm going back on Milk Thistle once I'm done.

Keep in mind M1T isn't a Pro-hormone, it's a steroid. And with that, it's one of the toughest on the liver.

Posted by: DOMS

Would the hawthorne pose the same problem as the milk thistle?

Posted by: musclepump

Potentially. I'm not sure there's any solid evidence it detracts from effectiveness, or maybe there is, but you should be fine by just taking it post cycle. As long as you're not taking some crazy amount your liver will survive.

Posted by: Pirate!

Start PCT with nolva at around 60 mg/ and taper down to around 30 mg/ day if using the research liquid kind. Milk Thistle can be used during cycle, and should definitely be used during pct, too. If you are going to run the 4-derm for 4 weeks, I'd start the week before and then end it when you end the M1T. PCT starts the next day. You won't get gyno from 4-AD.

Posted by: Tha Don

man do some more research, that cycle has a lot of faults

you can run a search for 'M1T' '4derm' and 'cycle' and look for a thread that I posted with my proposed cycle to get a better idea of what a good M1T 4-ad cycle should look like

no milk thistle while on M1T, its a waste of money IMO, just take plenty of it during PCT, hawthorne can be taken from day 1 till end of PCT

all the other info you need is in my thread

Posted by: Tha Don

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...1t+4derm+cycle

check that out

Posted by: QuestionGuy

keep in mind M1T isn't a Pro-hormone, it's a steroid. And with that, it's one of the toughest on the liver.[/QUOTE]

does this count for 1-T also ???? 1-t can't aromatize into estrogen so that means gyno is out of the question too right ?

Posted by: musclepump

Quote:

does this count for 1-T also ???? 1-t can't aromatize into estrogen so that means gyno is out of the question too right ?[/

1-Testosterone cannot aromatize into estrogen, that is correct. But no, gynocomastia is not out of the question. After your cycle is finished your nuts aren't working; they're shut down from your externally administered T. But, still, your body is trying to average out it's test/estrogen ratio; thereby increasing estrogen production. You don't get gyno FROM M1T or 1-T, it's rather a by-product of the bodies own reaction. Even if you don't get gyno, as some PH/PS are "safer" than others from gyno, you always want to run a solid PCT and keeping Nolva in that is just smart business.

Posted by: topolo

well said muscle!

Posted by: musclepump

thank ya.

Posted by: DOMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

man do some more research, that cycle has a lot of faults

you can run a search for 'M1T' '4derm' and 'cycle' and look for a thread that I posted with my proposed cycle to get a better idea of what a good M1T 4-ad cycle should look like

no milk thistle while on M1T, its a waste of money IMO, just take plenty of it during PCT, hawthorne can be taken from day 1 till end of PCT

all the other info you need is in my thread

Thanks for the link.

From what I can see, the differences are:

- four weeks instead of three
- you would use a higher dosage of M1T
- you would use a slightly higher dosage of 4DERM

I see that originally you would use metacort but then switched to Nolva.

This will be my first cycle so I thought I'd start with a lower dosage of M1T. As for the milk thistle, I've read in many places that milk thistle is a really good idea as M1T is very hard the liver. The worst of the PHs. Plus it's not very expensive, and better safe than sorry. You also didn't mention the hawthorne berry. This is to control the high blood pressure that is common from doing an M1T & 4DERM cycle.

Any specifics that you would recommend that I didn't cover?

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfs3

Thanks for the link.

1 negative with taking milk thistle while taking M1T is that the milk thistle helps the liver break down the M1T which is what you don't want while on M1T as its already anabolic (dosen't need to be broken down) so personally I don't see the benefit of taking it when taking M1T, your better off using more of it PCT to help your liver recover... it can't help your liver recover if your taking M1T at the same time

I did mention the hawthorne...

Quote:

hawthorne can be taken from day 1 till end of PCT

I agree its best to start with a low doseage, I'm planning 5mg a day, then if needs be go to 10mg and so on... working it up slow, i've heard low doseages work great for some, and many others feel they need 20mg+ so just have to see what the effects are like and take it from there

i'd also recommend looking into...

ALA (for liver protection + antioxident)
Vitamin B complex/B6/B5 (for energy, liver, acne and prostate)
Saw palmetto (for prostate)
Tribulus (prostate)

all of those can be taken on and post cycle

you'll have to keep us posted on how things go

Posted by: musclepump

Quote:

M1T is very hard the liver. The worst of the PHs.

So much so that it's NOT a Pro-Hormone. It's a steroid. If you're one of those guys trying to justify supplements by saying, "I'm not on roids, but thank you," you will be by taking M1T.

And skip the met, go straight to Nolva, imo.

Posted by: DOMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by musclepump

I know it's a steroid. I've taken to not calling it that in the supplement forum. I asked a question about having a vesectomy and using steroids (because that's what M1T is) and caught crap for asking about steroids in the supplement forum; Even though there are tons of threads about M1T here.

Posted by: DOMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

ALA (for liver protection + antioxident)
Vitamin B complex/B6/B5 (for energy, liver, acne and prostate)
Saw palmetto (for prostate)
Tribulus (prostate)

Thanks for the info!

As for the vitamin B complex, I've seen quite a few supplements that are built around a B complex. Are any of them worth taking over the basic B complex pill?

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

you'll have to keep us posted on how things go

I'll start a thread here and detail my day to day observations.

Posted by: Pirate!

Again, I don't see gyno being a problem post-cycle. Gyno from this stack on cycle is extremely rare--unless you do way too much 4-AD. Three weeks on M1T is long enough for a first cycle. You won't need more than 300 mg/day of 4-AD in two doses, if even that much. Yes, start the M1T low and work up to 10 mg/day. You probably won't see any additional benefit to 15 mg/day, but that might increase the sides.

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfs3

Thanks for the info!

As for the vitamin B complex, I've seen quite a few supplements that are built around a B complex. Are any of them worth taking over the basic B complex pill?

I'll start a thread here and detail my day to day observations.

i wouldn't waste money on any fancy vitamin B complex supplements, I just bought 1 from my local health store as its on special offer, just a standard high strength tablet should do fine

yeah definately do a thread on your cycle, its extremely informative to look at plus us guys can give you feedback and advice on what is happening, i'll certainly be putting up everything from my cycle on here

peace

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