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Polygraph and M1T

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Posted by: CRASHMAN

Well, for a fire department that i am applying at, they do a polygraph test to see if you have ever done anabolic steroids and other drugs. Because m1t is being classified as a steroid soon and the polygraph is after the ban date will i fail? or because its not an anabolic steroid (on the list) right now will it not matter? or will it even matter at all, because it's not a steroid its a pro-steroid?

peace of mind type thread.

I'd like to know soon



Posted by: seven11

oh shit man never thought about that... so by the way how long is m1t detectible in the body cuz im planing on using it in march.. and the ff test is in feb a year later



Posted by: seven11

and good luck with your test bro



Posted by: Rocco32

Just don't take the M1T after the ban date, you'll be fine. That's my plan for my poly.



Posted by: seven11

so um could any one anwser my Q plz, i just wanna know how long will m1t be detectible in the body



Posted by: Rocco32

I have no idea seven. You may have to start your own thread for that.



Posted by: CRASHMAN

Quote Originally Posted by rock4832
Just don't take the M1T after the ban date, you'll be fine. That's my plan for my poly.
see thats how i looked at it. It's not an anabolic steroid(classified) when i took it



Posted by: CRASHMAN

Quote Originally Posted by seven11
so um could any one anwser my Q plz, i just wanna know how long will m1t be detectible in the body
wouldn't be over 5 months max because dianabol is out of your system in 5 and i'm pretty sure test is out in 3 months (real steroids) so i don't see why it'd (a methyl like diana and a test like er.. um test lol) hang around and linger



Posted by: ZECH

M1T is a real steriod now even before being banned. So the point is can you lie good? I have never heard of a Fire or Police department asking if you have ever taken steriods and even going to the trouble of testing. Why does it matter?



Posted by: Dale Mabry

Just make sure you are nervous the whole time, it will mess up the test.



Posted by: CRASHMAN

Quote Originally Posted by dg806
M1T is a real steriod now even before being banned. So the point is can you lie good? I have never heard of a Fire or Police department asking if you have ever taken steriods and even going to the trouble of testing. Why does it matter?
just some things i hear down the grape vine whether i go ask my dad isn't really an option



Posted by: shutupntra1n

I would just be honest. You can't go wrong with being truthful. Ask the dept or administrator. Tell them that you purchased supplement products previously over the counter through a GNC or whatever and want to know how to answer when asked therefor not interfering with the test.



Posted by: CRASHMAN

Quote Originally Posted by shutupntra1n
I would just be honest. You can't go wrong with being truthful. Ask the dept or administrator. Tell them that you purchased supplement products previously over the counter through a GNC or whatever and want to know how to answer when asked therefor not interfering with the test.
That's a good idea. Man, girls use this honesty thing that always works guys are like, "hey, how the hell can i get around or trick this?"



Posted by: DOMS

http://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-034.shtml



Posted by: Luke9583

Quote Originally Posted by seven11
so um could any one anwser my Q plz, i just wanna know how long will m1t be detectible in the body
Youu did nothing illegal. Tell the truth.



Posted by: ZECH

If you tell the truth and they don't allow for steriod use, you are screwed out of a job.



Posted by: BoneCrusher

As long as you are gear free after the ban, and as long as what every you have done in the past was not on a banned list, then you have nothing to hide. Be straight and live straight ... it will show. You're OK man don't sweat it.

My question is how hard is it to find enough people to become firemen that have never smoked pot?



Posted by: camarosuper6

The polygraph isnt exactly all its cracked up to be. I would NOT tell them. Once its documented, its gonna follow you forever.



Posted by: shutupntra1n

Quote Originally Posted by dg806
If you tell the truth and they don't allow for steriod use, you are screwed out of a job.
Steroid in the manner of the chemistry. But until the ban is in effect, this item to the average Joe was not an illegal steroid. I think Crash should get clarrified what they are asking. Don't read into it so deaply Crash. If they asked you if you ever got a speeding TICKET and you never did but you speeded before would you say yes?



Posted by: camarosuper6

I wouldnt worry so much about the legal implications as the integrity ones. PD's and FD's are huge on judging moral character by our actions. Right or wrong, I can guarantee you that a dept will look down on something like this, its the nature of the beast.



Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote Originally Posted by shutupntra1n
Steroid in the manner of the chemistry. But until the ban is in effect, this item to the average Joe was not an illegal steroid. I think Crash should get clarrified what they are asking. Don't read into it so deaply Crash. If they asked you if you ever got a speeding TICKET and you never did but you speeded before would you say yes?
That is a very poor comparison. Let's assume that you have sped, but never got a ticket for doing so. If the question is:

"Have you ever received a speeding ticket?" Then you can truthfully answer "no." But of the question is:

"Have you ever sped?" Then the only truthful answer is "Yes." Anything else and you risk failing the test.

Likewise, for Crash, if the question is:

"Have you ever been arrested for using an anabolic steroid?" OR "Have you ever used an illegal anabolic steroid?" Then he can truthfully answer "No."

However, if the question is simply "Have you ever used an anabolic steroid?" Then he can only truthfully answer "Yes."



Posted by: BoneCrusher

Quote Originally Posted by Twin Peak
That is a very poor comparison. Let's assume that you have sped, but never got a ticket for doing so. If the question is:

"Have you ever received a speeding ticket?" Then you can truthfully answer "no." But of the question is:

"Have you ever sped?" Then the only truthful answer is "Yes." Anything else and you risk failing the test.

Likewise, for Crash, if the question is:

"Have you ever been arrested for using an anabolic steroid?" OR "Have you ever used an illegal anabolic steroid?" Then he can truthfully answer "No."

However, if the question is simply "Have you ever used an anabolic steroid?" Then he can only truthfully answer "Yes."
Help me out here people ... I'm not sure but I'm sure youse all are ... is M1t considered an AS before the ban? It did not think it was classified as such.



Posted by: musclepump

It's a steroid. It was just able to get through a loophole before.



Posted by: Twin Peak

It is an anabolic, androgenic steroid. It is just not an illegal one. Yet.



Posted by: BoneCrusher

I understand it was an AS ... but how was it listed by the FDA? If it was not classified as an AS or was classiefied as a legal AS by the FDA at the time CRASH was taking it... then M1t was not actually a steroid he would be required to ethically provide disclosure on. See my point? Ethics are cut and dried. There is no almost pregnant. If M1t was classified as an AS and under the controlled substance act restrictions then our boy here is screwed. If not than he has a very fine future as a fireman in front of him. That CRASH is good people with a good state of mind and should be allowed in goes without saying.

This would be my guide ... JMHO CRASH.



Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote Originally Posted by BoneCrusher
I understand it was an AS ... but how was it listed by the FDA? If it was not classified as an AS or was classiefied as a legal AS by the FDA at the time CRASH was taking it... then M1t was not actually a steroid he would be required to ethically provide disclosure on. See my point? Ethics are cut and dried. There is no almost pregnant. If M1t was classified as an AS and under the controlled substance act restrictions then our boy here is screwed. If not than he has a very fine future as a fireman in front of him. That CRASH is good people with a good state of mind and should be allowed in goes without saying.

This would be my guide ... JMHO CRASH.
You are very far off the mark. Reread my first post above. Its not about ethics, its about truthfully answering a question.

M1T is chemically and pharmacologically as steroid. If the question simply is "have you used a steroid" you cannot reconfigure that question into "have you used an illegal steroid" or "have you used a substance classified as a steroid by the FDA". That is nonsense.



Posted by: shutupntra1n

Well the dept that is testing him I'm sure is not assuming he is an anobolic steroid expert. What I was saying was that he needs to have clarrified what they are asking instead of assuming what they are asking. TP, it was not a poor comparison, I was simply saying that he needs to know what they are asking before he answers the quesiton. My point that is... to someone like you or me, we understand the measures of M1t and such but some average Joe attempting at employment for a FD is not going to sit there and break down how anabolic a product was if it was legal at the point of sale. My better knowledge tells me they are referring to illegal substances. Why would they ask you about over the counter products. That has no point. The bottom line is that you should have clarrified what they are considering a steroid. I know idiots that consider lots of stuff drugs, including creatine. Know the question before you answer. As far as your moral character, I would just be honest. I don't agree that you will be looked down apon by having taken a legal substance which is why I believe they are asking about illegal AS. Not products such as M1t.



Posted by: shutupntra1n

Quote Originally Posted by Twin Peak
You are very far off the mark. Reread my first post above. Its not about ethics, its about truthfully answering a question.

M1T is chemically and pharmacologically as steroid. If the question simply is "have you used a steroid" you cannot reconfigure that question into "have you used an illegal steroid" or "have you used a substance classified as a steroid by the FDA". That is nonsense.
BC is making the same point I am. If the department says have you taken an anabolic steroid they are going to give the examples before asking... such as... and then at that point Crash should answer honestly. How many test takers are coincidently PH/PS experts such as yourself You are being critical b/c of your current knowledge. I know National Level BB that use AS and still know shit about M1t.

I would just find out what they are labeling anabolic and answer honestly. Lying at that point will be the most dishonest factor. Thank god it's against the law to administer a polygraph in NJ for employment



Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote Originally Posted by shutupntra1n
BC is making the same point I am. If the department says have you taken an anabolic steroid they are going to give the examples before asking... such as... and then at that point Crash should answer honestly. How many test takers are coincidently PH/PS experts such as yourself You are being critical b/c of your current knowledge. I know National Level BB that use AS and still know shit about M1t.

I would just find out what they are labeling anabolic and answer honestly. Lying at that point will be the most dishonest factor. Thank god it's against the law to administer a polygraph in NJ for employment
You guys are missing my point. You need to understand what the question is. They are not going to list for you the substances they are referring to, they will not know all of the things we are discussing here.

And if you ask "Hmmm, what do you mean by anabolic steroid" you have probably lost the job.



Posted by: camarosuper6

They dont ask directly about steroids. All Ive been asked is the equivalent to any illegal drugs.



Posted by: camarosuper6

The polygraph questioning is usually very basic and broad.



Posted by: shutupntra1n

Quote Originally Posted by Twin Peak
You guys are missing my point. You need to understand what the question is. They are not going to list for you the substances they are referring to, they will not know all of the things we are discussing here.

And if you ask "Hmmm, what do you mean by anabolic steroid" you have probably lost the job.
How do you know? Are you admineristing the test. In my police testing so far, they did list the substnaces. And in the case they don't you just prove my point... look how many average joes don't see M1t as a steroid. Most test takers aren't knowledgable to that depth.



Posted by: BoneCrusher

Quote Originally Posted by Twin Peak
You are very far off the mark. Reread my first post above. Its not about ethics, its about truthfully answering a question.

M1T is chemically and pharmacologically as steroid. If the question simply is "have you used a steroid" you cannot reconfigure that question into "have you used an illegal steroid" or "have you used a substance classified as a steroid by the FDA". That is nonsense.
In matters of ethics and legality I feel I am dead nuts on. If CRASH is asked about the use of anything he has imbibed in his lifetime he is only required to followed the laws as written at the time the substance was imbibed and provide disclosure accordingly. Not trying to cloud this up at all or start an arguement. But this really is that simple. If the FDA did not classify M1t as a controlled susbtance or RECOGNISE M1t as an illegal AS before the ban then the coast is clear and our boy has no ethitical requirement to disclose its use. What we as BB'ers call or have classified M1t as is not the issue here. It's what the FDA says that counts.

Again I'm not claiming to knw the history of M1t's classification so I have to ask ... was there a loop-hole that stated "Yes M1t is an AS ... but fuck it use it anyway"? Were there were over-the-counter legal uses for M1t that allowed it to not get included as a controlled substance yet still be classified as an AS?



Posted by: camarosuper6

Polygraph testing isnt used just for pass/fail purposes.



Posted by: Twin Peak

You both continue to miss my point. I have articulated it as clearly as I can, and I'll leave it at that.



Posted by: camarosuper6

I see TP's point. The poly is used not only as simply a pass/fail based on truths or negatives.. its used as a complete interrogation device. Not only is the wording of the questions EXTREMELY important, the way you answer, your behavior , everything in general is taken into consideration.

Not just the skipping of the needles.



Posted by: BoneCrusher

In places where the ploygraph is used there is also periodic retesting ... especially when there is an injury. How many other fire fighters have used an AS in the past? There has to be some kind of an exclusion or some guys I know would be unemployed here in Austin Texas.

Camaro if what you are saying is the way of things than CRASH is clear. That would be good.



Posted by: camarosuper6

Yea he's clear. Ive taken many after using M1T.... never a problem... not even close.


Just tell him to keep his mouth quiet about it. No need to make a fuss over nothing IMO.



Posted by: BoneCrusher

All I am saying is that we have ex-post-facto protections that prevent this exact thing from taking chunks out of our collective asses. No legal or governing body is allowed to come in and declare something illegal and then back date the punishment.



Posted by: ZECH

I agree both are missing TP's point. The FDA has never classified M1T as anything as it is a reletively new substance. Once the FDA found out about these substances (and yes they are steriods) they banned them because of this. So you cannot say you are not guilty of taking steriods because the FDA didn't know about it. That is how Barry Bonds and Baseball got in trouble with designer steriods. They made new ones that were not dectable for awhile. Like Camaro said and TP knows, Law enforcement is EXPECTED to be above everyone else as far as character goes. Not right but that is how it is. If he admits use, I will guarentee you it will cost him the job. He can't be arresting people for something he does. They will consider it illegal, being the reason they banned it.



Posted by: Twin Peak

Camaro and DG have hit half of my point. Let's see if I can't explain the other half more clearly.

A company can determine to not hire you for ANY REASON whatsoever (save for a few protected reasons, see Title VII and the ADEA).

So, for example, if you ever smoked cigarettes, they can choose not to hire you.

Thus, if they ask, whilest you are strapped to a lie detector test, "have you ever smoked a cigarette?" and you have, you are fucked, unless you can fool the test/tester.

End of story. This is neither a legal, nor a moral issue.



Posted by: Twin Peak

Hmmm, where'd everyone go?



Posted by: camarosuper6

Actually that test isnt very accuarte despite all the bs we are fed. Ive read its more closely accurate to about 55-60 percent of the time. Read up on the National Academy of Sciences research on it... it really makes you wonder why LE even uses it (other than pure fear)



Posted by: Twin Peak

Yeah, that is why it is inadmissible as evidence in a court of law in almost every state. Regardless, if you "fail" when going for a job interview, you will not get the job.



Posted by: BoneCrusher

Quote Originally Posted by TP
M1T is chemically and pharmacologically as steroid. If the question simply is "have you used a steroid" you cannot reconfigure that question into "have you used an illegal steroid" or "have you used a substance classified as a steroid by the FDA". That is nonsense.
TP and Dg I caught that point presented ... I just disagree on the validity. This is very cut and dried. M1t was either on the list of controlled substances or it was not. Crash was breaking the law or he was within his legal rights to use M1t. If the FDA did not include M1t as an AS under their controlled substance act then it makes no matter how someone tries to phrase a question of AS use. "Do you now or have you ever used an AS?" after the ban still gets a "No." response as the substance was not classified as an AS at the time of CRASH's use. Moral high ground and the expectations of a higher standard of conduct for police and fire fighters included here Dg ... ex-post-facto protections provide relief from future laws being created that we would then be held accountable for were we in violation of those laws in the here and now. Were the question asked of his use of M1t directly then he would be required to answer "yes." As Camaro pointed out it won't be though. There will be a broad brush question on AS. If The FDA did not classify M1t as an AS in the controlled substance act at the time of CRASH’s use of it than the legal, ethical, and completely moral answer is "No.".

As far as sports goes Dg ... you are in a whole new area there. The direct result of M1t is greater physical ability so the question is directed to its use as such ... not whether CRASH was in violation of Federal laws. The two are separate areas of violation. These guys want to know if CRASH has broken the laws of the land ... not whether he used something to get an unfair edge over the competition. He has not violated any ethical issues to increase his physical self with M1t for personal reasons.

On a moral and ethical playing field either all players are allowed to use some kind of AS or they are all prohibited from it. Regardless of whether the AS is classified by the FDA yet you know what you are using. In the sports world if to your knowledge the sup you are using has some kind of AS or pseudo AS in it and the use of such has been proscribed then you are stroking the pooch and should be sanctioned.

CRASH is not in violation of any laws or ethical considerations now, nor would he be if he answered "No." to a question of AS use regarding M1t at anytime in the future IMHO.

CRASH they give you any shit you send 'em my way. I'll get flex to kill 'em for ya. He is still at $50 a hit ... I'll cover it and write the expense off on my taxes as a public service contribution for sponsoring a fire fighter



Posted by: Twin Peak

Quote Originally Posted by Twin Peak
Camaro and DG have hit half of my point. Let's see if I can't explain the other half more clearly.

A company can determine to not hire you for ANY REASON whatsoever (save for a few protected reasons, see Title VII and the ADEA).

So, for example, if you ever smoked cigarettes, they can choose not to hire you.

Thus, if they ask, whilest you are strapped to a lie detector test, "have you ever smoked a cigarette?" and you have, you are fucked, unless you can fool the test/tester.

End of story. This is neither a legal, nor a moral issue.
Bone, you don't get the import of this post do you?



Posted by: BoneCrusher

Quote Originally Posted by Twin Peak
Bone, you don't get the import of this post do you?
For some reason TP you feel I don't get it. I do . CRASH has trained and prepared for this and is nervous about the polygraph's shot at killing his future ... yeah I get it. Completely.

He is safe. Leave it at that ...



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Polygraph and M1T


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