front load long ester? [Forum Archive]

Pages: 1

front load long ester?

(CLICK HERE here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: jeb

i've heard a lot of bros that say to front load with long esters per say deca, and some say that is not good & to keep it the same dosage all the way my cycle. Is that true that it will kick in faster if you front load with a long ester??? let's say if you're doing a 10 week cycle of it, and you front load it with 1200mg the first week then the sencond week to the end at 600mg (pretty much in pyramid but with front load), will it kick in faster?? I say that why don't give the long ester do it's job? please give your OPINION OR THEORY I need you all's opinion about this.

Posted by: TJ Cline

You need to post the exact cycle you have in mind, and then we can comment on it.

Posted by: jeb

I don't have one particulary in mind, but let's say 10 weeker of deca 600mg/wk, but front loading it at a high dose the first week.

Posted by: Tough Old Man

I never frontload. I either kickstart the cycle with Prop, D-bol or Anadrol.

Jump in Lam or Mudge. Does frontloading stabilize the first few weeks of the cycle keeping it constant at the beginning.

Posted by: TJ Cline

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeb

I don't have one particulary in mind, but let's say 10 weeker of deca 600mg/wk, but front loading it at a high dose the first week.

You shouldnt do deca alone. Do weeks 1-9n deca, and do week 1-10 test E or test Cyponate

Posted by: Tough Old Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

You shouldnt do deca alone. Do weeks 1-9n deca, and do week 1-10 test E or test Cyponate

Gosh darn Eric that just shot that 6 weeker in the butt. lol

Posted by: jeb

I know that. I like test eq and dbol cycles. I'm asking if you do a cycle of deca (just an example ok) would front loading it with the same would it give you the "kick" faster than running it at a constant dose all the way?.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

You shouldnt do deca alone. Do weeks 1-9n deca, and do week 1-10 test E or test Cyponate

Posted by: jeb

exactly that's what i'm asking thougholdman. front load not kickstart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tough Old Man

I never frontload. I either kickstart the cycle with Prop, D-bol or Anadrol. Jump in Lam or Mudge. Does frontloading stabilize the first few weeks of the cycle keeping it constant at the beginning.

Posted by: LAM

blood levels will peak in 24-48 hours regardless of the dosage used with an enanthate ester. personally I wouldn't front load with deca but if I was going to frontload with using test/deca it would go like this :

Week 1-2 : test prop @ 500 mg & test enanthate @ 500 mg
Week 3-12 : test enanthate @ 500 mg/wk
Week 1-10 : deca @ 400 mg/wk
Week 1-12 : T3 @ 50 mcg/ED

* obviously you could use dbol in place of the prop to jump start the cycle

Posted by: TJ Cline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tough Old Man

Gosh darn Eric that just shot that 6 weeker in the butt. lol

I must be having an acid flash back, did I say 10 weeks??? OMG you guys are corrupting my cycle advise.Ok I will compromise, do a 8 week cycle....it is my favorite.

Posted by: Tha Don

you double the dose in the first week if you wanted to frontload, eg if you were running 400mg of deca a week for 10 weeks, run 800mg in the first week, then 400mg weeks 2-10

personally i haven't tried it, i'm starting to think that maybe i should have done it with the test en. on my cycle to get it into my system quicker, but its too late now, maybe i'll try frontloading on my next cycle, i'd be interested to hear some more opinions on frontloading from the more experienced guys

Posted by: ZECH

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

i'm starting to think that maybe i should have done it with the test en. on my cycle to get it into my system quicker

It does not matter if you double the dose or not. If you take 500mg or 100mg Test E, it will still take about two weeks for peak blood levels. Your peak levels will be higher if you double dose. It won't get in your system quicker unless you use a shorter ester.

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

i don't really get why some people take double doses for the first week then? maybe they are just ill-advised

Posted by: Pirate!

Frontloading Basics and Dosages

by Curls4dGirls at SuperiorMuscle.com with contributions by Skyefire and Spidey

The purpose of this thread is to provide some basic information on frontloading, including an explanation of half-lives, differences across esters, and recommended frontloading dosages.

HALF-LIFE BASICS

Each compound includes an ester that, along with other factors, controls the release of the hormone into the system. The rate of release differs by ester and is defined in terms of half-life. The average half-lives of esters are:

ESTER HALF LIFE (days)
Formate 1.5
Acetate 3
Propionate 4.5
Butyrate 6
Valerate 7.5
Hexanoate 9
Caproate 9
Isocaproate 9
Heptanoate 10.5
Enanthate 10.5
Octanoate 12
Cypionate 12
Nonanoate 13.5
Decanoate 15
Undecanoate 16.5

The half-life is the length of time (in days) to release half of the hormone into the system. For example, if 500 mgs of Testosterone Cypionate is administered, in 12 days, on average, 250 mgs of testosterone has been released into the system and 250 mgs of testosterone remains attached to the ester. In another 12 days, an additional 125 mgs (half of the remaining 250 mgs) has been released into the system for a total of 375 mgs released and 125 mgs still attached to the ester. The key detail is that different esters release the hormone into the system at different rates. Therefore, different esters require different frontload dosages.

FRONTLOADING

The purpose of frontloading is to quickly reach the target dosage to more quickly realize the benefits of the AAS. This thread provides instructions to reach 75% of the weekly dosage within the first week

Most people use, as a rule of thumb, twice the weekly dosage (double dosing) in the first week. That works well for esters with a half-life of 10.5 days or less. However, this does not work well for longer esters. Let’s look at EQ as an example. If the intended weekly dosage is 600 mgs, then the frontload dosage, based on double dosing, is 1200 mgs. Although 50% of the intended dosage is reached in the first week, 75% of the intended dosage is not reached until week 4. Without any frontloading, 75% of the intended dosage is reached in week 5. So, while ‘double dosing’ works, the effects diminish with increasing half-life.

EQ Double Dose Values at 600 mgs (1200 mgs in Week 1)

No Frontload
Released… % of Target
Week 1 153… 25%
Week 2 267… 44%
Week 3 352… 59%
Week 4 415… 69%
Week 5 462… 77%
Week 6 497… 83%

Double Dosing
Released… % of Target
Week 1 306… 51%
Week 2 381… 63%
Week 3 437… 73%
Week 4 478… 80%
Week 5 509… 85%
Week 6 532… 89%

The following table includes frontloading dosage to reach 75% of the intended dosage by the end of the first week. The dosages are indexed at 100 mgs / week. To reach your intended dosage, simply multiply the frontload dosage by your weekly dosage divided by 100. For example, if you wanted to run Testosterone Cypionate at 800 mgs / wk, then multiply the frontload dosage of 225 mgs by 8 (800 / 100) for 1800 mgs in week 1.

ESTER FRONTLOAD DOSAGE(mgs)
Formate 100
Acetate 100
Propionate 115
Butyrate 130
Valerate 160
Hexanoate 180
Caproate 180
Isocaproate 180
Heptanoate 200
Enanthate 200
Octanoate 225
Cypionate 225
Nonanoate 250
Decanoate 270
Undecanoate 295

The calculation used is MgDL = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL), where:

MgDL = Mgs of depot left
MgD = Mgs in depot (total)
D = Days
H = Half-life

Injections for Formate and Acetate are daily. Injections for Propianate are every other day. Injections for Butyrate are every 3 days. All other esters are administered as one injection at the beginning of the week 1. It should be noted that injection frequency does not significantly influence frontloading dosages.

Posted by: ZECH

IMO, when you double dose, you are taking more gear than you really need to grow and the chances of sides go way up.

Posted by: TrojanMan60563

I see it as for the first week it kicks in you will be jacked up and then after that your levels will go down a week later....so there is no point in doing it

Posted by: Tough Old Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

i don't really get why some people take double doses for the first week then? maybe they are just ill-advised

Because they are goofy and believe they'll get results sooner. You know the old saying the quicker the better!. Do what Lam or Dg said.

Posted by: 19-chief

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrojanMan60563

I see it as for the first week it kicks in you will be jacked up and then after that your levels will go down a week later....so there is no point in doing it

use http://www.come.to/roidcalc and tell us if you see the number of active hormones go up and then down. it's just not that simple. esterification changes everything... frontloading allows the total number of "active hormones", key word, to reach the target amount faster. with that said, i don't know if i would frontload a compound other than test again. i think kickstarting with prop is a better choice for the reason dg806 mentioned -higher risk of sides but prop seems to be a better avenue if you need to back off. but then again, i'm just a f*ckin' newbie... what do i know?

Posted by: ZECH

I think for people that only have a cycle or two or on their first cycle, this is completely a waste of gear. No need to try to get levels that high that fast. You will grow plenty off of your regular dose. Like the saying goes, more is not always better.

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by PirateFromHell

FRONTLOADING

The purpose of frontloading is to quickly reach the target dosage to more quickly realize the benefits of the AAS. This thread provides instructions to reach 75% of the weekly dosage within the first week

Most people use, as a rule of thumb, twice the weekly dosage (double dosing) in the first week. That works well for esters with a half-life of 10.5 days or less. However, this does not work well for longer esters. Let’s look at EQ as an example. If the intended weekly dosage is 600 mgs, then the frontload dosage, based on double dosing, is 1200 mgs. Although 50% of the intended dosage is reached in the first week, 75% of the intended dosage is not reached until week 4. Without any frontloading, 75% of the intended dosage is reached in week 5. So, while ‘double dosing’ works, the effects diminish with increasing half-life.

EQ Double Dose Values at 600 mgs (1200 mgs in Week 1)

No Frontload
Released… % of Target
Week 1 153… 25%
Week 2 267… 44%
Week 3 352… 59%
Week 4 415… 69%
Week 5 462… 77%
Week 6 497… 83%

Double Dosing
Released… % of Target
Week 1 306… 51%
Week 2 381… 63%
Week 3 437… 73%
Week 4 478… 80%
Week 5 509… 85%
Week 6 532… 89%

that would seem to suggest to me that frontloading (even with longer esters) is worth doing, maybe not on a first cycle, but it might be a good idea on a 2nd or 3rd cycle if you wanted to keep at the same dose

Posted by: Pirate!

Personally, I'd rather use orals and/or test prop.

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by PirateFromHell

Personally, I'd rather use orals and/or test prop.

what about orals and frontload? prop is just way too many needles for my liking!

Posted by: LAM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

what about orals and frontload? prop is just way too many needles for my liking!

you could jump start a long ester cycle with dbol, drol or halo

Posted by: Pirate!

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

what about orals and frontload? prop is just way too many needles for my liking!

You have put on a pound a day for almost two weeks, right? Isn't D-bol enough of a jumpstart? If you are running orals and long esters, and you really want to do a frontload, just double your test dose for the first week.

Posted by: 19-chief

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19-chief

sorry if i came off sounding like a jerk yesterday... that was just the mood i was in at the time.

Posted by: Mudge

I dont really front load, most especially with test (sides kick in fast).

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by PirateFromHell

You have put on a pound a day for almost two weeks, right? Isn't D-bol enough of a jumpstart?

no, its not

Posted by: 19-chief

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

no, its not

young d, you're up 14+ pounds already? hot damn!

Posted by: TrojanMan60563

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19-chief

sorry if i came off sounding like a jerk yesterday... that was just the mood i was in at the time.

Don't worry about it....I just don't see the logic in front loading on long esters or any ester. It doesn't make sense to me. Its not like its going to kick in fast if you shoot more of it your first week.

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrojanMan60563

Its not like its going to kick in fast if you shoot more of it your first week.

well according to pirates post it would

Posted by: ZECH

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

no, its not

Your asking for trouble. Read Mudge's post above.

Posted by: TrojanMan60563

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

well according to pirates post it would

From what I know is the ester determines when it starts to become effective in your body. So I don't get how injecting more up front is going to make it work any faster then the ester will allow. If all you have to do is inject more of a long ester for a week to get it going right away then nobody would shoot prop to get the almost instant effects.

Posted by: Mudge

Esters are released as time goes on, it doesn't just suddenly remove the ester and then let go of the hormone in the body. If that were the case it would be the same as taking test suspension, and enanthate would become test suspension after 5 days. So we'd still be doing daily shots.

So try it yourself, shoot 1-2 grams of test enanthate. I know for me, I will feel the gyno fairy knocking at my door damn near instantly.

Think of methylated orals. The methylation helps make them resistant to breakdown from the liver, but it does not just simply become removed and 100% of the hormone is released instantly.

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

So try it yourself, shoot 1-2 grams of test enanthate. I know for me, I will feel the gyno fairy knocking at my door damn near instantly.

errrr, on 2nd thoughts maybe i won't frontload

Posted by: Mudge

The ester helps ensure slower continual release, so yes front loading will raise blood levels sooner.

Everyones gyno sensativity is different, for me anything over 600mg of test or so and I have to take an aromatase inhibitor or anti-estro.

If you are doing orals I see no point in front loading, and I'd wonder where your blood pressure is already. My BP never gets "bad" but orals + front loading for some people, especially if you feel you bloat a lot, sounds like an unhealthy situation. I find orals to be very powerfull, I love them, especially drol. If they didn't hit the organs like they did I'd run them all the time.

I remember you questioning your dbol as legit or not, what do you think now?

Posted by: TrojanMan60563

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Esters are released as time goes on, it doesn't just suddenly remove the ester and then let go of the hormone in the body. If that were the case it would be the same as taking test suspension, and enanthate would become test suspension after 5 days. So we'd still be doing daily shots.

So try it yourself, shoot 1-2 grams of test enanthate. I know for me, I will feel the gyno fairy knocking at my door damn near instantly.

Think of methylated orals. The methylation helps make them resistant to breakdown from the liver, but it does not just simply become removed and 100% of the hormone is released instantly.

Well I knew the ester didn't hold the test and let it all go at one time....But what I mean is since it slowly releases it into your body it takes a longer period of time to get blood levels up.....so front loading would get levels higher faster but overall wouldn't this method cause some very unstable levels....like very high levels for a period of time and then it would gradually taper down by the end of the cycle. I think every time you inject its like increasing the amount in your body each time since its a longer ester if you inject twice a week each time there is still some active hormone you are adding to...so if you are injecting 600mg per week by the end of 10 weeks you must have the equivalent to over a gram in your body right? Does that make sense or am I losing it? Like a built in taper up as the time goes on.

For that reason I think using prop gives you the best way to keep levels even through the whole cycle.

Posted by: Mudge

Prop wont ever reach the peak levels of a long ester, because it is in and out (processed) so quickly.

It may take longer for a long ester to build but ultimately levels will be plenty fine for stability, that was really what long esters were created for. An HRT patient does not want levels up and down, yet they want the ability to shoot infrequently. Front loading will simply get your blood levels up faster, but for my body its too fast when talking testosterone.

If you look at front loading on paper, it does not cause a yo-yo of very high levels and then dropping them. A 1-2 week front load of a double dose looks just dandy, or some run a little prop with their long ester for the first 1-2 weeks. I just dont bother, but I also run longer cycles, and I am not against running an oral. With an oral in the mix there is no point to running an extra gram of drugs (orals + front loaded injectables) or something to start with, it just sounds crazy, but I am not looking to go pro or anything like that either.

http://www.roidcalc.com/

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

I remember you questioning your dbol as legit or not, what do you think now?

i switched onto some thais and i feel they are certainly working now, been on them for just over 2 weeks and both my weight and strength are up, pumps are very pronounced, quite a bit of lethargy too, how long till the test starts to kick in?

Posted by: Mudge

Check out the roidcalc if you like, I dont use it but some like it. If you want to play with a frontload I probably wouldn't go anymore than 50% extra, so 750/wk if you were doing 500/wk otherwise. Thats JMO though.

M1T is the only thing I've ever used that made me lethargic, but as for dbol the pink thais are definitely nice. I seem to respond relatively well to dbol. One of these days I may see how 40-50mg ED works for me.

Posted by: HardTrainer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Check out the roidcalc if you like, I dont use it but some like it. If you want to play with a frontload I probably wouldn't go anymore than 50% extra, so 750/wk if you were doing 500/wk otherwise. Thats JMO though.

M1T is the only thing I've ever used that made me lethargic, but as for dbol the pink thais are definitely nice. I seem to respond relatively well to dbol. One of these days I may see how 40-50mg ED works for me.

Mudge what did M1T do for you? do you think its any good?

Posted by: 19-chief

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

that's what i did b/c i was a big penocha when i had to do my first injects... 1.5cc's of each for the first two shots. (that was 412.5mg Test E/ 300mg EQ each time.) i wouldn't be able to tell you if it worked. seemed like i still had to wait a good while for it to "kick." that's why i want to go to EOD's for 8 wks... seems like there would be more productive time "ON" that way vs 10-12 wks of a long ester and 8 weeks of that being productive time.

Posted by: Mudge

Quote:

Originally Posted by HardTrainer

Mudge what did M1T do for you? do you think its any good?

Put me to sleep in the second week. I did 20mg for week 1, then 30mg for week 2. I used Legal Gear brand. It worked great for a female friend of mine @ 10mg a day, but did nothing for me.

I do know a guy who loved it though, but before M1T he was natural, with one testicle. Now he is on HRT and cycles as well.

Posted by: Pirate!

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

how long till the test starts to kick in?

It dosen't just "kick in". It is already in your system and doing it's jobs. You just haven't reached peak levels yet. Patience....

Posted by: 19-chief

pirate, you have to admit that with long esters, there is the feeling of "something extra" and "alright, this sh!t is on now!"

"something extra" came at about 2-3 weeks.

"alright, this sh!t is on now!" came for me at about 5 weeks.

Posted by: 19-chief

this is the reason i will probably run t-prop and npp or tren ace next time.

Posted by: Mudge

Yeah, I loved short esters for awhile. But after 6 weeks I was so glad to be done with ED shots. Long esters, longer cycles for me.

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Yeah, I loved short esters for awhile. But after 6 weeks I was so glad to be done with ED shots. Long esters, longer cycles for me.

long esters are much more appealing to me also, ED/EOD shots for 6 weeks+??? no chance!

if i ever run tren it will be the enan ester

Posted by: redspy

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

long esters are much more appealing to me also, ED/EOD shots for 6 weeks+??? no chance!

if i ever run tren it will be the enan ester

I agree completely. My next cycle will consist of test cypionate and tren enanthate. I tried EOD prop/tren ace shots in the past and it was hell.

Posted by: TrojanMan60563

I can say that on prop I felt the effects sooner, but on the enanthate I got SO damn horny by day 2-3. I was getting hard just walking around...sucked.....so that must mean even the long esters start having some effects in a short period of time.

(CLICK HERE here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

front load long ester?

Article Archives

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60