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heavy back work enough for biceps??


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Posted by: Rpn1984

im considering not doing anymore direct bicep work would heavy back exercises be enough to fully develop my biceps?


Posted by: bio-chem

no


Posted by: buildingup

yes, i have big biceps and i dont do bicep work!


Posted by: ihateschoolmt

Depends on what you are doing.


Posted by: Rpn1984

im doing rows and pulldowns right now


Posted by: HardTrainer

Yes


Posted by: Sam40

I'll have to go with no!. You should be trying minimizing biceps involvement, with back work anyway.


Posted by: CowPimp

Certainly. I was doing 1 set of curls every 10-12 days. I have done zero direct work in the past.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam40
I'll have to go with no!. You should be trying minimizing biceps involvement, with back work anyway.
Why?


Posted by: Sam40

If you rob from Peter to pay Paul, Peter looses. If you allow your biceps to work more than a minimum amount on back work, you rob your back. You should always concentrate on the muscles, primarily involved on any exercise.
(example) Taking a wider grip on the bar when doing rows, will involve the biceps less. A narrow grip involves the biceps so much, it might as well be a biceps exercise. Your defeat the whole purpose in back exercise that way. Pulling the bar to high up toward your chest involves the biceps beyond the intent. Pulling low toward the lower chest, and upper abdomen, involves the back more. Rolling your shoulders back, and downward, puts more stress on your lats, and less on the biceps. Ah-oh I forgot about the scientific boys, they won't see it this way.


Posted by: Fashong

I do 5 sets of direct bicep work + back work


Posted by: Du

IMO, you can build great bis just doing heavy back work. But like Sam40 basically said, dont compromise form, work your back on back day. The biceps are worked secondary and you should keep it that way.

So simply put - yes.


Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam40
If you rob from Peter to pay Paul, Peter looses. If you allow your biceps to work more than a minimum amount on back work, you rob your back. You should always concentrate on the muscles, primarily involved on any exercise.
You have the wrong idea. If you give your biceps a more efficient line of pull, or somehow otherwise allow yourself to move more weight as a result of more efficient recruitment of the biceps, then you are just moving more weight in the end. You are not reducing the tension your back is placed under.


Quote:
(example) Taking a wider grip on the bar when doing rows, will involve the biceps less. A narrow grip involves the biceps so much, it might as well be a biceps exercise.
Your biceps are only "used less" because they move through a smaller range of motion and this now requires them to do less work. However, the tension placed on the muscle is probably still similar.

Also, depending on the width of the grip you use, you may not be able to retract your scapula, a function which is largely dependant on your lats, as comfortably and efficiently as you could with a different grip. In fact, I use a relatively close grip when I row. Rows never felt fully comfortable using a wide grip for me.


Quote:
Your defeat the whole purpose in back exercise that way. Pulling the bar to high up toward your chest involves the biceps beyond the intent. Pulling low toward the lower chest, and upper abdomen, involves the back more. Rolling your shoulders back, and downward, puts more stress on your lats, and less on the biceps. Ah-oh I forgot about the scientific boys, they won't see it this way.
In terms of the biceps, you are once again merely changing the range of motion. Elbow flexion is still involved. However, pulling to your chest also means that your arms are now perpendicular to your body. This moves away from scapular retraction and more toward transverse extension. Granted, both of these movements also use the other muscle in question, but are less efficient in the aforementioned movements.


Posted by: Sam40

No doubt heavy back work, will result in increased biceps size. As will all the muscles, heavy back works causes the body to produce more growth harmones. But if you wan't to maximise,you don't need to give up your biceps work.


Posted by: ihateschoolmt

Today I did back, after I finished my back work out I tired to do DB curls. I can curl 40x10 if I don't do back first. Today I couldn't curl 30x1.


Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam40
No doubt heavy back work, will result in increased biceps size. As will all the muscles, heavy back works causes the body to produce more growth harmones. But if you wan't to maximise,you don't need to give up your biceps work.
You don't have to. It is something to try though. Zero to almost no direct arm work seems to produce the best results for me.


Posted by: Sam40

There is no way to completely keep the biceps from taking part, in any pulling motion. But with proper form, you cam minimize the amount they are involved. but if you want to maximize your biceps, you should not give up your bicep work. Regardless!.

Don't do biceps on back day!.


Posted by: Squaggleboggin

Different stroks for different folks. It depends almost entirely on your goals and how you respond as an individual. I was never into doing 50x50 for 10 exercises for my biceps, but I did used to work them directly to a point. Since having done away with that to focus on functional strength (the biceps have little to do with this), my biceps have still been growing, and only with indirect work. Once again, my goals were functional strength, so for someone who just wanted to add X inches to his/her arm, it might be different.


Posted by: myCATpowerlifts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam40
No doubt heavy back work, will result in increased biceps size. As will all the muscles, heavy back works causes the body to produce more growth harmones. But if you wan't to maximise,you don't need to give up your biceps work.
I fully agree...
You could apply this to triceps as well...Almost every chest exercise uses your triceps to a degree, so are you going to stop doing direct tricep work? Hell no.


Posted by: ihateschoolmt

Quote:
Originally Posted by myCATpowerlifts
, so are you going to stop doing direct tricep work? Hell no.
A lot of people don't do direct tricep work either.


Posted by: Squaggleboggin

Yeah, but the fact that many people do or do not do something is not a valid argument; a lot of people don't do direct leg work, but it's still a stupid idea.


Posted by: Fashong

I can probally curl 105 x 2 now


Posted by: Mudge

For a powerlifter who does not give a hoot what his arms look like, yes they are enough.


Posted by: Squaggleboggin

That's cool...


Posted by: ihateschoolmt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fashong
I can probally curl 105 x 2 now
?


Posted by: ihateschoolmt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin
Yeah, but the fact that many people do or do not do something is not a valid argument; a lot of people don't do direct leg work, but it's still a stupid idea.
It's enough for some people to grow, like gopro. Average person probably need direct tricep work.


Posted by: Fashong

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihateschoolmt
Today I did back, after I finished my back work out I tired to do DB curls. I can curl 40x10 if I don't do back first. Today I couldn't curl 30x1.

That is why I said that, I do back/biceps in one day, I do it every wednesday. I usually do back first because I like to save biceps because it is my favorite muscle to work.


Posted by: Squaggleboggin

Good thing you do them last. You should be using your energy for the bigger/more important muscle(s) by doing them first; second should come everything else.


Posted by: Fashong

!!! I like my biceps better then my back lol. My back is crappy expecially where I got sunburnt /cry


Posted by: Squaggleboggin

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihateschoolmt
It's enough for some people to grow, like gopro. Average person probably need direct tricep work.
I was just referring to the fact that saying how many people do something isn't a good way to back up a claim.


Posted by: Squaggleboggin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fashong
!!! I like my biceps better then my back lol. My back is crappy expecially where I got sunburnt /cry
If your back is crappy then you should just work it more. If you read my thread about how my upper back is underdeveloped, you'll see that that simply makes me want to work it even harder. If you have that attitude about working out, soon you'll have very little weak or 'crappy' areas.


Posted by: ihateschoolmt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fashong
That is why I said that, I do back/biceps in one day, I do it every wednesday. I usually do back first because I like to save biceps because it is my favorite muscle to work.
I still don't get why you said how much you can curl? I doubt you are using correct form if you are curling as much as you bench. I mean shit I can barely curl 105x3.


Posted by: Fashong

I just don't like my back because of the sunburn and it hurts to put weight on there for example doing squats, I have a girly back.


Posted by: Squaggleboggin

So do deadlifts and rows.


Posted by: ihateschoolmt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fashong
I just don't like my back because of the sunburn and it hurts to put weight on there for example doing squats, I have a girly back.
Squats aren't for lats. I thought you didn't squat anyway.


Posted by: Fashong

I never said they were for lats, I was just saying because you put the weight on your back and I do not do squats because of those reasons.


Posted by: Squaggleboggin

You probably aren't putting it low enough on your back if you're experiencing discomfort that is not related to your sunburn.


Posted by: Sam40

Yeah I once met a guy who said I never do leg work, he had a nice upper body, but I have seen bigger chicken legs. He looked really stupid .

Remember the discussion about different muscle fiber types. Well if lifting a lot of weight is all you are after, heavy squats, huge rows, and Magnum presses are all you need. But you will look like SHIT!!.


Posted by: Mudge

Sunburn doesn't last long enough to never work out your back, that sounds ridiculous. Arms and chest with no back looks lame, IMHO.


Posted by: TJ Cline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpn1984
im considering not doing anymore direct bicep work would heavy back exercises be enough to fully develop my biceps?
Absolutely not!


Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam40
There is no way to completely keep the biceps from taking part, in any pulling motion. But with proper form, you cam minimize the amount they are involved. but if you want to maximize your biceps, you should not give up your bicep work. Regardless!.

Don't do biceps on back day!.
I'm not saying definitively that no direct arm work is the way to go. I said that some respond really well to this type of training. It should be tried. Your arms aren't going to wilt up into nothing if you simply try doing no direct arm work.

Also, what is wrong with doing biceps on back day? That is a totally viable split that countless people do with great success.


Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:
Originally Posted by myCATpowerlifts
I fully agree...
You could apply this to triceps as well...Almost every chest exercise uses your triceps to a degree, so are you going to stop doing direct tricep work? Hell no.
Damned straight. I don't do direct tricep work at all currently.


Posted by: Sam40

Nothing is wrong with it, I do it. But if it wears you out so much you can do only one curl. I would change it around.



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