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Chin ups/Pull ups

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Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

Chin ups (undergrip) are FAR superior to pull ups (overhand). Use a slightly wider than should width grip, this position maximizes the range of motion and lat involvement.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: bharminder

oh yeah...it was you who told me that...i havent talked to you for a while my icq is messed up and i dunno how to fix it


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

ICQ sucks, I always use msn.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: bharminder

MSN sucks, I always use aim.


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

AIM is just as bad.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: mmafiter

TSB, why are underhand grip chin-ups better than pull-ups? I thought it would be the other way around. It seems to me I use less bicep when I do chins with a overhand grip.

Hmmm....just wondering.

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100000 Lemmings can't be wrong.


Posted by: bharminder

Probably, but i'm too used to it to realize..anyways, i was just reading that dumbbell vs. barbell benching and i was wondering what u meant by that not changing ur workout thing..like are you sayin that when your workout gets stale you should keep doing it?


Posted by: bharminder

Idecided to do these instead of barbell rowing...Should I do both or just chin ups? The only back working i'll be doing is deadlifting, shrugs, and which ever one is better between pull ups and chinups..I heard chinups were better somewhere..If so..how wide should my grip be?


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

What do you mean by "stale"? If you mean boared but you're still progressing then it;'s best to stick with it. If you mean progression has stopped then change it.

About the chins, no matter what grip we use the biceps will always be involved in the chin. The biceps are the weak link, meaning they limit how much you can stimulate your lats before they fail. So, by putting your hands in an undergrip position (supinated) you put your biceps in their strongest position, thus this will take longer to fatigue so you can train your lats with more weight/reps. Also, the range of motion is better. Yes you will feel your biceps working more, but that's a good thing...it just means they are working harder, and this means you can work your lats harder before the biceps give out on ya.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: w8lifter

What about wide grip pronated pull ups? Do those create better wings than a closer grip?....or is this one of those upper/lower/inner/outer pec questions ;D

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Behind every great man is his BUTT

My FitPit


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

That's definately a myth...could be classified as a upper/lower/inner/outer pec type thing.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: mmafiter

ok, thanks.

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100000 Lemmings can't be wrong.


Posted by: Mule

I do them wide. Works for me. I just started to do them the other way!

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Im an Iron Addict!


Posted by: ballast

I do them the way Supreme suggested.I went from wide/pronated chins to shoulder-width/supinated chins.Was able to use 15 extra pounds for the same amount of reps.

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"I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose."


Posted by: bharminder

Will chinups work both the teres major and the lats good, or should i had a set or two of bent over row or pullups? if not, then is 3-4 sets of chinups goood enough for that part of the back?


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

The chins and a row is sufficient.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: cytrix

isn't it so that widegrip pullups or pulldowns are targeting the upper outer parts of the lats more, and chinups more the lower lats? i do both


Posted by: bharminder

So a chinup isnt enough for the back?


Posted by: Jason Da Bodiful

BTW, how much will doing Chins/pull ups target on our Pecs? Cuz my routine is Chest on Monday, Back on Wendesday, thus if working on back will somewhat work on the Pecs, doesn't that mean I should do something in order for the latter to have enough rest?


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

LOL cytix are you serious? If you are, then no what you said is wrong.

A chin is primarily a bicep/lat exericse, so you may wanna add a row for the rhomboids, lower traps (separate insertion and origins, and fuction, thus can be separaretly targeted), teres, scapulea and all the other muscles in the middle of the back.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: Robert D.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jason Da Bodiful:
BTW, how much will doing Chins/pull ups target on our Pecs? Cuz my routine is Chest on Monday, Back on Wendesday, thus if working on back will somewhat work on the Pecs, doesn't that mean I should do something in order for the latter to have enough rest?
If you're working your back correctly, it should not affect your pecs.



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Just because the majority believes it, does not make it true!


Posted by: bharminder

so 3 sets of chins and 2 rows? I'm also doing 2 sets of shrugs so that works the traps...for the barbell row..should i bring the weight up to my chest or tummy? because when i bring it up to my chest after a few reps my leg starts to cramp up and i heard its bad for you if you pull to the chest.


Posted by: cytrix

hey TSB,
i actually was serious, this is what i've been reading over and over,but after reading what you said, it (you)makes sense, because i know fibers either contract or not, not only on top or bottom. i have another question for you, what do you think about barbell rowing undergrip - would that be an alternative for chinups or closegrip/underhand pulldowns? and what do you think about behind the neck pulldowns?


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

I do my rows undergrip. I like it better, and the same weak link thing applies to rows too.

Don't do behind the neck exercises.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: cytrix

TSB, i was serious , but after reading your reply, it makes sense, since musclefibers either contract lenghwise, or not. what's your opinion regarding behind the neck pulldowns as alternative for a regular bentover row for the midback)and undergrip/close row (as alternative for the chinup or closegrip pulldown)?


Posted by: bharminder

Wouldn't doing chin ups and underhand grip rows be the same thing or would the underhand grip work the same muscles as the wide overhand grip? also, do you do them wide undergrip or close undergrip?

<FONT COLOR="#000002" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[Edited 1 time by bharminder on 08-20-2001 at 08:49 PM]</font>


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

Don't do behind the neck exercises.

I do them slightly wider than shoulder width with an undergrip.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: bharminder

ok Supreme...one last time..
3 sets of deadlifts
3 sets of chins(underhand slightly wider than shoulder width grip)
2 sets barbell row(underhand slightly wider than shoulder width grip)
2 sets shrugs

is that good enough or should i make it 3 sets or make it a wide overhand grip on the rows?


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

Yes that's fine you pain in the ass

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: cytrix

sorry, i pretty much posted the same thing twice previously , but i thought the first one didn't get posted, 'cause i couldn't see it within the next 15 min., i guess it takes a little while sometimes


Posted by: cytrix

i still don't totally understand why back exercises should be done close grip, because the biceps is stronger in that position, but on the other hand, bench presses would be done with an at least shouderwide grip and elbows out, i mean, you could say, if you wanna minimize the triceps being the week link, to do chest presses elbows in, so the triceps would be in their strongest position. why does this apply to back only???


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

Not close grip, slightly wider than shoulder width.

It does apply to other compound exercises limited by the weak link.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: cytrix

TSB, so what you are saying is use a underhand grip, but still slightly wider than shoulder wide, correct? i've only seen people use a closer grip when doing anything underhand grip. it makes a lot of sense what you are saying, they should tell you this in the muscle mags. where did you get your knowledge?


Posted by: cytrix

what about dumbell rows, how do you do those? also underhand or just vertical?


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

That's what I'm saying.

I don't do DB rows, but I'd do them plams facing my sides.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: bharminder

I didn't want to start a new subject, so I thought I'd just reply here...Sometimes I don't always have access to a gym..and i dont have a pull up bar at home..Other than buying one..what kind of substitute can i do for chins, if any?


Posted by: Scotty the Body

If you have open beam you could use that, or the monkey bars at the local playground.

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Just another day in the gutter


Posted by: bharminder

what can i do to get chins up? im HORRIBLE at these i realized today


Posted by: bharminder

I can only do like 1-2 when i do them slightly wider than shoulder width...should I use lat pulldowns at a substitute?


Posted by: Robert D.

Quote:
Originally posted by bharminder:
what can i do to get chins up? im HORRIBLE at these i realized today
Do you have someone available that can spot you?



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Just because the majority believes it, does not make it true!


Posted by: ALBOB

Quote:
Originally posted by bharminder:3 sets of deadlifts
3 sets of chins(underhand slightly wider than shoulder width grip)
2 sets barbell row(underhand slightly wider than shoulder width grip)
2 sets shrugs
Not to re-open an old wound here, but aren't the shrugs redundant? You do them to work the traps, but you're already getting plenty of trap work from your deadlifts and to a lesser extent rows. I'd say bag the shrugs and add a set to your rows and chins. (I wouldn't recommend adding to the deads, if you're doing them to full intensity 3 sets is plenty.)



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Life is hard so quit whining and go out there and be alive.


Posted by: bharminder

They probably are..I never do em...i always list em tho..heh i havent done them since april.


Posted by: bharminder

I do have a question though...for anyone..I heard bent over rows are great for the lats..so why am i doing both chinups and bent over rows?


Posted by: Scotty the Body

Its said that chins or pull downs are for width in the lats and rows are for thickness in the lats.

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Just another day in the gutter


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

That;s not a correct statement, but if you rephrased to: Chins build width in the back, and rows build thickness in the back...you'd be about right.

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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: Scotty the Body

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSupremeBeing:
That;s not a correct statement, but if you rephrased to: Chins build width in the back, and rows build thickness in the back...you'd be about right.
I stand corrected.

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Just another day in the gutter

<FONT COLOR="#000002" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[Edited 1 time by Scotty the Body on 09-13-2001 at 12:05 PM]</font>


Posted by: Robert D.

You're better than that Scotty.

Try not to sink to his level.

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Just because the majority believes it, does not make it true!


Posted by: Maki Riddington

We forgive you for being a dickhead



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Exercise, my drug of choice


Posted by: Maki Riddington

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSupremeBeing:
That;s not a correct statement, but if you rephrased to: Chins build width in the back, and rows build thickness in the back...you'd be about right.
*** Really, I'd be interested to see where you picked this info up from?
Thickness and width comes from adding muscle not shaping with a specific exercise which is what you are insinuating. Scotty's statement was not off base. It may have been simply what he has found through personal experience.


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Exercise, my drug of choice


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

Chins focus on the lats, the lats, when developed, add width to the back.

Rows focus on the lower traps, rhomboids, rear delts and so on, and when developed this will add thickness to the back.

Do both, and you get both. Do one or the other, and you get both, but probably not to the same extent as doing both.

Scotty's statement was offbase, don't be silly.

Cya.


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Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.


Posted by: Scotty the Body

Quote:
Originally posted by Prince:
You're better than that Scotty.

Try not to sink to his level.

Your right and I corrected it,
I should have stayed away from the board yesterday, I was feeling bad about the hole US thing and I vented on TSB. Sorry all.


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Just another day in the gutter


Posted by: ALBOB

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSupremeBeing: you pain in the ass
Has anyone EVER heard of a more perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black?



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Life is hard so quit whining and go out there and be alive.


Posted by: Pianomahnn

So, I've been working on being able to do a one armed pullup, not a chin up. A one arm chin up is REALLY funky on the body.

Anyways, I'm soooooooo almost there. And I'm wondering, I'm 145 pounds, so if I do a one arm pullup, would that kind of be like me curling 290 pounds with both arms? I know they aren't really the same form, and stuff but it's kind of like the same muscles and stuff.

Yeah....there's no way I could curl 290 pounds.


Posted by: Mesofreaky

about the benching elbows in thing this is much better and once you adapt to it you will find it far superior.


Posted by: Robert D.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mesofreaky
about the benching elbows in thing this is much better and once you adapt to it you will find it far superior.

Superior to what?


Posted by: Pianomahnn

Superior to Mule's left nut.




Posted by: Maki Riddington

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSupremeBeing
Chins focus on the lats, the lats, when developed, add width to the back.

Rows focus on the lower traps, rhomboids, rear delts and so on, and when developed this will add thickness to the back.

Do both, and you get both. Do one or the other, and you get both, but probably not to the same extent as doing both.

Scotty's statement was offbase, don't be silly.

*** Says who.....says you.
Don't start telling people when their off base when you yourself are throwing out personal opinions.

As for your assumption on what muscles are being emphasized you are generalizing.
What kind of chins, what is the hand position, the arch in the back, how are you pulling yourself to the bar?

I'll leave you with a knowledgable coach who is quoted to say the opposite of what you are saying.
Charles Poliquin states that chins add thickness not width.


Posted by: Sun

I just browsed through the posts, I may sound redundant:

Overgrip leaves the biceps in a weaker position.
Undergrip will put them in a less compromising state, therefore... more reps/weight.

Bend your arm at 90, turn your palm out.
Now turn it inward. Look at your bicep. Compare.

But that's not the arguement I guess. It's whether or not it builds width or thickness. I think this is a really moot point. I'm going from personal experience ... please note that, PERSONAL experience...

Chins, Horizontal rows, 6 sets total for lats = fully developed lats. This is a vicious circle arguement like upper/lower chest. Just hit the muscle, and find what works for you. Most importantly, are you progressing?

It's that simple, really.


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

Get off the bandwagon Maki.

Have you ever done a chin or row? Jesus.

I do chins with an undergrip, slightly wider than shoulder width grip. This is the best way to do them, IMO. When I (and every other person in the world) do them, they focus on the lats. I do rows with an undergrip, slightly wider than shoulder width grip. I pull to just below my bottom ribs, and this focuses on the middle back region.

Besides, how the fuck do you thicken or widen a muscle? I always thought it just grows or shrinks. Pffft.

BTW, sup Sun?


Posted by: Maki Riddington

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSupremeBeing
Get off the bandwagon Maki.

Have you ever done a chin or row? Jesus.

I do chins with an undergrip, slightly wider than shoulder width grip. This is the best way to do them, IMO. When I (and every other person in the world) do them, they focus on the lats. I do rows with an undergrip, slightly wider than shoulder width grip. I pull to just below my bottom ribs, and this focuses on the middle back region.

Besides, how the fuck do you thicken or widen a muscle? I always thought it just grows or shrinks. Pffft.

BTW, sup Sun?

*** Exactly Supreme.
How does one widen or thicken a muscle?
You seem to know since you stated what exercises do and don't.
I see you threw in a "IMO" now.


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

Of course it's my opinion, who else would have written it?

I never said an exercise widens or thickens anything, the "back" is not muscle, it's a region containing many muscles. Some of them will add width to your back when developed, such as the lats because they are on the "outside" of the back and stick out. Some will add thickness to the back, because they are on the "inside". I wasn't talking about an individual muscle, as Scotty was.


Posted by: Maki Riddington

*** I'm not gonna waste my time arguing semantics.
The bottom line is that you stated someone was wrong in their statement and you yourself then decreed that it was the opposite.

Supreme said,
That;s not a correct statement, but if you rephrased to: Chins build width in the back, and rows build thickness in the back...you'd be about right.

*** How can someone be wrong if it's a opinion especially concerning a topic like this?
There is no right or wrong, but you seem to think there is with the above.


Posted by: TheSupremeBeing

*Throws beer bottle at Maki*

I think I'm right, I think he's wrong, I think you're just an angry drunken asian who needs something to do right now.

That better?


Posted by: Scotty the Body

Quote:
Originally posted by bharminder
I do have a question though...for anyone..I heard bent over rows are great for the lats..so why am i doing both chinups and bent over rows?
To that I said: Its said that chins or pull downs are for width in the lats and rows are for thickness in the lats.

I don't know why I put lats and not back, sorry if I confused anyone. Thankyou for corecting me TSB and Maki.


Posted by: bharminder

I have a question about chinup pullups...
Say someone weighs 200 lbs and he can do 5 pullups. Now obviously that doesnt mean that he can curl 200 lbs 5 times..What i'm asking is..does your back just absorb a lot of the weight or what?

Also, why can my cousin do more pullups than chinups?


Posted by: Pianomahnn

It's the way your arm is turned. A chin up is kind of like a preacher curl. People can always curl more normally than they can Preacher. Just as people can pullup more than they can chinup.

And about your 200 lbs 5 times thing, I have no idea. I'm 145 pounds, and can almost do a one armed pull up. Now, it would be great if that meant I could curl about 300 pounds with both arms, but I know that can't be true. Any ideas? Although my bicep still needs to bend....same as a curl.


Posted by: bharminder

It's the way your arm is turned. A chin up is kind of like a preacher curl. People can always curl more normally than they can Preacher. Just as people can pullup more than they can chinup.

It should be the other way around. Your biceps are strongest in there supinated position, so logic would have it that u should be able to do more chinups


Posted by: Mule

Hey dont bring my nuts into this!!!


Posted by: Pianomahnn

Hey, Prince had them in his hands, I only pushed him into this thread.




Posted by: Robert D.

Prince laughs at Pianomahnn!

You cannot use the word moderator in your title!


Posted by: Mule

YOur my ASS Pianomahnn!! THats what your title says!


Posted by: Pianomahnn

PRINCE IS A NAZI!!!

Dude, I can have no fun around here if you keep replacing words with *****. No one will know what I'm talking about. OMG!!!

So, uh, Mule, what were you saying about your ass?









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