Insulin spike idealogy, in the presence of high cortisol levels [Forum Archive]

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Insulin spike idealogy, in the presence of high cortisol levels

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Posted by: Luke95

I approached this the wrong way elsewhere. This would make a great discussion among people (not sheep)

PWO cortisol levels can be any where in the 20-30 mcg/dl range (depeding on time of day and intensity). I don't see any possible way you can 'use' 100g of dextose, as with cortisol levels in that range, you won't secret insulin (not a usable amount). Consuming carbohydrates does not trigger an insulin response in that kind of an environment and secreted insulin is resisted. These are the findings of many people in the medical community. This is the basis for syndrome 'x', a possible cause of pre-diabetes, and heart disease. Mayo Clinic has many studies that show this data.

Pro's use insulin for two reasons.

* A PWO insulin injection would be necessary for proper uptake of glucose and amino's. (you can't secrete enough of it.) (this is of course if you can lower HR enough to efficiently digest)
* Elevated hgh suppresses Insulin activity

So, if you are consuming a PWO birthday cake shake without injecting insulin.... not only will your insulin not be capable of working properly, but the presence of glucocorticoids like cortisol tell insulin to STORE FAT. This is assuming, of course, you manage to actually 'digest' some of that PWO shake. Cortisol and CRH halt digestion... and the elevated cardiac flow wouldn't allow for even "decent" nutrient uptake through micro villi.

Why do so many people have this illogical habit and why do they defend it to their death?

Oh, and by the way...... Here is the trump card. If consuming carbohydrates triggered a usable insulin response in the presence of elevated cortisol; there would be no such thing as "Cushing's Syndrome"

Posted by: topolo

I agree.......

Posted by: NEW_IN_THE_GAME

Ohh well i mean it works, but i use vitargo or oats. not dextrose. i know it doesnt matter.

Posted by: emunah

I also read a study that states insulin actually causes more of the protein to be retained in the gastrointestinal tract and liver. Thus, you end up with a higher % of protein reaching the muscle if there is less insulin present.

Posted by: myCATpowerlifts

I disagree, and I will tell you why.

Posted by: Zinthar

What would you advocate as the best stuff to have in a PWO shake then (I'm guessing dextrose is out)?

Posted by: ST240

So all this time ive been using dextrose in my shake has been counter productive? A lot of people swear by the PWO insulin spike. I think we need more opinions on this as this is just one study...

Posted by: Emma-Leigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinthar

What would you advocate as the best stuff to have in a PWO shake then (I'm guessing dextrose is out)?

Actually - it depends on a few things (your genetics, your goals, the length and intensity of your workout).

But regardless of all of the above - if you are training at an appropriate intensity, I would recommend at least some carbohydrate and something that is relatively easily digested.

So my list usually includes:
- skim milk
- banana (or high glucose fruit such as pineapple or grapes)
- dextrose
- thinly chopped /ground oats (like quick oats)

That sort of thing...

Posted by: Emma-Leigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by ST240

So all this time ive been using dextrose in my shake has been counter productive?

No. Combining carbohydrate with a protein PWO will aid in recovery and muscle protein synthesis:
Article
Article
Article
Article

However - with that said it is realised that pre-workout nutrition is just as (if not more) important than PWO in this regards as it means the aa and glucose is available during the exercise... eg:article.

But in regards to needing CHO in the sense that many people believe (eg: the "take 50g dex and 50g malto and you have to suck it down ASAP" stuff) it is not required.. As it was stated, the supraphysiological insulin response that is required to case an increase in protein synthesis (that is, the one they have observed in glucose infusion studies) doesn't happen - and all you get is lots of carbs.... So that 'insulin spike from super high levels of dex' is not needed...

For that reason (and for other reasons) I do not recommend simply taking in huge doses of carbs - rather I suggest a combination of things - usually skim milk + some fruit (banana) +/- another carb source (either dex or thinly rolled oats - depending on your preference).

Posted by: FishOrCutBait

Im going with the finely ground oats and whey from now on, im too sensitive to sugar.

Posted by: emunah

I agree...from some studies I've read, its the PREworkout meal that has a stronger effect than the postworkout meal.

Posted by: Luke95

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

So my list usually includes:
- skim milk
- banana (or high glucose fruit such as pineapple or grapes)
- dextrose
- thinly chopped /ground oats (like quick oats)

That sort of thing...

Interesting choices. The banana and oats wouldn't pull much of an insulin response (under normal conditions)..... the dextrose.....

I agree that you'd need CHO's with the protein, as the uptake of amino's is assisted by that of glucose. But, IIRC, a banana is never 'glucose', until it is first converted into glycogen

Banana's are weird

IMHO, the most important things you can do PWO, are slow your heart rate, control your breathing, replenish water soluable vitamins/minerals, and get some amino's in you (pray they get picked up, to spare some skeletal muscle)..... But I think people are way to scared of Deaminating skeletal muscle (hence the crazy PWO shakes that I garuntee aren't digested).

Posted by: myCATpowerlifts

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke95

(hence the crazy PWO shakes that I garuntee aren't digested).

Where's your phD?

Posted by: Luke95

Quote:

Originally Posted by myCATpowerlifts

Where's your phD?

....but give me 4 more years.

Posted by: Emma-Leigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke95

Interesting choices. The banana and oats wouldn't pull much of an insulin response (under normal conditions).....

The oats - no (II of cooked oatmeal is only about 40 - unsure of uncooked??)... The banana will have more of an impact (II ~ 80). Skim milk = really good insulin response (I think it is up about 96-100 if I remember correctly??)...

Quote:

I agree that you'd need CHO's with the protein, as the uptake of amino's is assisted by that of glucose. But, IIRC, a banana is never 'glucose', until it is first converted into glycogen

Banana's are weird

Ummm... No.

A banana doesn't need 'conversion' in the liver - it actually has a pretty good ratio of carbohyrates (especially for the situations PWO when you want a little fructose - such as long duration glycogen depleting exercise where whole body glycogen replenishment is important)...

A banana is isn't 100% fructose (no fruit is). Per 100g (3.5 oz) banana has ~22.5g carb, of which:
~5.5g starch (= digested in intestine = glucose)
~5g glucose (= taken up as glucose

)
~5g fructose
~2.5g sucrose (digested in intestines to half glucose and half fructose)
~2.5g fibre

And, on that note, fructose can be taken up and used in muscle as a substrate (despite what people think) eg: here and here... Yes - more is taken up by the liver than with glucose - but it will still be converted into glucose (and lactate) which can then be released and used by the remainder of the body anyway... And, if you consider this in conjunction with your theories above, then it may even be more ideal because it is not promoting a huge insulin surge, but it will slowly release energy that can be taken up and used during longer term recovery (which is also the same reason why the galactose in skim milk is beneficial).

Posted by: ST240

Ah where would we be without Emma-Leigh?

Posted by: FishOrCutBait

Quote:

Originally Posted by ST240

Ah where would we be without Emma-Leigh?

Whats the saying...

Up "screwed creek" without a paddle?

Posted by: Nate K

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

A banana doesn't need 'conversion' in the liver - it actually has a pretty good ratio of carbohyrates (especially for the situations PWO when you want a little fructose - such as long duration glycogen depleting exercise where whole body glycogen replenishment is important)...

A banana is isn't 100% fructose (no fruit is). Per 100g (3.5 oz) banana has ~22.5g carb, of which:
~5.5g starch (= digested in intestine = glucose)
~5g glucose (= taken up as glucose

)
~5g fructose
~2.5g sucrose (digested in intestines to half glucose and half fructose)
~2.5g fibre

And, on that note, fructose can be taken up and used in muscle as a substrate (despite what people think) Yes - more is taken up by the liver than with glucose - but it will still be converted into glucose (and lactate) which can then be released and used by the remainder of the body anyway... And, if you consider this in conjunction with your theories above, then it may even be more ideal because it is not promoting a huge insulin surge, but it will slowly release energy that can be taken up and used during longer term recovery (which is also the same reason why the galactose in skim milk is beneficial).

Thanks for explaining this....I have wanted to have this explained.

Posted by: Luke95

Quote:

Originally Posted by ST240

Ah where would we be without Emma-Leigh?

Amen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

then it may even be more ideal because it is not promoting a huge insulin surge, but it will slowly release energy that can be taken up and used during longer term recovery (which is also the same reason why the galactose in skim milk is beneficial).

Terrific info

I just got into the habit of avoiding banana's. Glad I understand them better now.

I'm curious to hear your ideas on the functionability of the digestion PWO.

Posted by: wild

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke95

I approached this the wrong way elsewhere. This would make a great discussion among people (not sheep)

So....are you referring to Thunder then?

Posted by: Luke95

Quote:

Originally Posted by wild

So....are you referring to Thunder then?

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Insulin spike idealogy, in the presence of high cortisol levels

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