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pwo shake, bulk to cut


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Posted by: MWpro

How should my post workout shake change during a cut? Currently I am having 2 cups of oatmeal and about 45g of protein in the shake.


Posted by: Hlanderr

you actually shouldn't change it too much at all....


PWO is PWO.... you need carbs and protein for muscle recovery
maybe, just MAYBE, you can drop the oats to around 1 cup. That would be around 50g carbs, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong on this one


Posted by: 40-yard dash_2

Quote:
Originally Posted by MWpro
How should my post workout shake change during a cut? Currently I am having 2 cups of oatmeal and about 45g of protein in the shake.
Is there any milk in the PWO Shake? Just trying to get an idea to take those carbs and protein into account.


Posted by: MWpro

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40-yard dash_2
Is there any milk in the PWO Shake? Just trying to get an idea to take those carbs and protein into account.
Nah no milk in it currently.


Posted by: 40-yard dash_2

Quote:
Originally Posted by MWpro
Nah no milk in it currently.
How many cals do you get from carbs, grams, or %?


Posted by: leg_press

I usually pound down a shake and then an hour later eat a meal


Posted by: MWpro

Quote:
Originally Posted by leg_press
I usually pound down a shake and then an hour later eat a meal
That is awesome for you, and I think most people do that; however, it has no relevance to my question.. at all.


Posted by: Emma-Leigh

Personally - I would add some fruit and skim milk to your PWO shake.... I don't like using just oats as the only source of carbs....


Posted by: thajeepster

I had a pretty good one today...

1 scoop whey
1 cup skim
1/2 cup oats
1/2 banana
30g dex

mighty tasty i must say... 80g carbs 40g protein 4 or 5g fat


Posted by: furion joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by thajeepster
I had a pretty good one today...

1 scoop whey
1 cup skim
1/2 cup oats
1/2 banana
30g dex

mighty tasty i must say... 80g carbs 40g protein 4 or 5g fat

That does look pretty good. Nice ratio of carbs to protein; a 2/1 ratio seems to be the ideal nowadays - for an individual's requirements/goals.

I read an article that Chris Aceto wrote and he suggested a 3/1 ratio of carbs to protein pwo. It was for a mass building phase...


Posted by: furion joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hlanderr
you actually shouldn't change it too much at all....


PWO is PWO.... you need carbs and protein for muscle recovery

Correct me if I'm wrong on this one
I think you're right on with that statement. PWO nutrition should remain relatively stable even when you are cutting. If carbs are to be reduced, they can be taken away from other meals. Breakfast and PWO seem to be the best times for carbohydrate consumption. Macronutrient timing is an important factor to consider when cutting.


Posted by: Emma-Leigh

Quote:
Originally Posted by furion joe
I think you're right on with that statement. PWO nutrition should remain relatively stable even when you are cutting. If carbs are to be reduced, they can be taken away from other meals. Breakfast and PWO seem to be the best times for carbohydrate consumption. Macronutrient timing is an important factor to consider when cutting.
Actually I would argue pre/during-workout carbs as being just as important (if not more important) than PWO...


Posted by: furion joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh
Actually I would argue pre/during-workout carbs as being just as important (if not more important) than PWO...
That's cool, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

It seems that the PWO meal has dominated most nutrition forums...so it would be nice know something substantial about pre/during-workout carbs.


Posted by: Emma-Leigh

Quote:
Originally Posted by furion joe
That's cool, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

It seems that the PWO meal has dominated most nutrition forums...so it would be nice know something substantial about pre/during-workout carbs.
You would be better to hear it from the 'horses mouth':

Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.
Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206

Where they find
Quote:
These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC [essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement] solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.
It is a good read.


Posted by: emunah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh
You would be better to hear it from the 'horses mouth':

Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.
Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206

Where they find

It is a good read.
Yes, but Tipton compared FASTED lifting with post workout shake to a lifting session with Pre-workout and no post workout.

Obviously fasted lifting is going to result in less muscle gain even WITH post workout supplementation.

You really can't extrapolate to a situation in which someone has both a pre and post workout meal.


Posted by: furion joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh
You would be better to hear it from the 'horses mouth':

Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.
Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206

Where they find

It is a good read.

Agreed; it was a really good read. Based on the testing protocol, phenylalanine concentrations and uptakes, and increased blood flow, the study does present significant findings to identify and support the benefits of a pre-workout protein and carbohydrate supplement.


Questions:

If the pro/carb supplement were consumed pre-workout, which improves net muscle protein synthesis (amino acid delivery), would it be beneficial to consume a post-workout supplement/meal consisting of just simple/high GI carbohydrates and fluids? In essence refueling energy stores and re-hydrating the body – increasing the rate of glycogen storage? (initiating recovery)

And if the amino acid delivery/concentration remained elevated both during and post-workout, would it be good to take in a protein supplement (by itself) within 30-60 minutes of working out – increasing the availability of amino acids to damaged muscle? (initiating repair/recovery/growth)

Separating the two for better absorption and utilization of each individual macronutrient?

Or is the benefit/result the same when both macronutrients are consumed at the same time? One doesn’t interfere with the other?


Thanks for posting the link to the study.


Posted by: furion joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by emunah
Yes, but Tipton compared FASTED lifting with post workout shake to a lifting session with Pre-workout and no post workout.

Obviously fasted lifting is going to result in less muscle gain even WITH post workout supplementation.

You really can't extrapolate to a situation in which someone has both a pre and post workout meal.

Wouldn't that be the best environment to conduct such an experiment - considering the method(s) of the testing protocol - to acquire an accurate measurement and/or evaluation of the essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement?

"...the infusion of stable isotopic tracers of amino acids."

"After 2 h of infusion to establish an isotopic steady state, resting measurements were made of amino acid concentrations and enrichments in the femoral artery and vein, as well as muscle."

Maybe I missed something...


Posted by: emunah

Quote:
Originally Posted by furion joe
Wouldn't that be the best environment to conduct such an experiment - considering the method(s) of the testing protocol - to acquire an accurate measurement and/or evaluation of the essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement?

"...the infusion of stable isotopic tracers of amino acids."

"After 2 h of infusion to establish an isotopic steady state, resting measurements were made of amino acid concentrations and enrichments in the femoral artery and vein, as well as muscle."

Maybe I missed something...
Yes, from a strictly experimental viewpoint, yes. It is a beautifully designed study.

However, how many people lift fasted? My argument was against extrapolating the results and concluding that pre workout meals result in more muscle gain/be more important than post workout meals when you have both. In THIS experimental situation, that is true. In a situation in which you have BOTH meals, the preworkout meal will not necessarily be superior/have a stronger effect than the pwo, which is what the study was concluding.

In the real world, I don't believe the pwo meal IS as important as people say because of this reason...you will still be metabolizing your preworkout meal by the time you get to your post workout meal, if your preworkout meal is at least 3 hrs prior. The idea that you have to RUSH to get aa's to the muscle..well, they are still getting them from the preworkout meal.

To answer your question, I do know some lifters who then limit their postworkout meal given this information. However, I would still have some protein/carbs. The total amount may just not to be as high.


Posted by: furion joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by emunah
Yes, from a strictly experimental viewpoint, yes. It is a beautifully designed study.

However, how many people lift fasted? My argument was against extrapolating the results and concluding that pre workout meals result in more muscle gain/be more important than post workout meals when you have both. In THIS experimental situation, that is true. In a situation in which you have BOTH meals, the preworkout meal will not necessarily be superior/have a stronger effect than the pwo, which is what the study was concluding.

In the real world, I don't believe the pwo meal IS as important as people say because of this reason...you will still be metabolizing your preworkout meal by the time you get to your post workout meal, if your preworkout meal is at least 3 hrs prior. The idea that you have to RUSH to get aa's to the muscle..well, they are still getting them from the preworkout meal.

To answer your question, I do know some lifters who then limit their postworkout meal given this information. However, I would still have some protein/carbs. The total amount may just not to be as high.

Thanks for your response emunah; I appreciate your input.


The pre and post-workout meals are almost, in my view, equally important; and, there may be strong arguments for the benefits of both.

Pre–workout: the possible reduction of stored glycogen – the ability to maintain a higher blood sugar level during training - which may extend the duration and intensity value(s) of a workout; and, the enhanced delivery of amino acids to the working muscle(s).

Post-workout: restocking energy reserves, increasing carbohydrate uptake (formation of glycogen) and repairing/rebuilding damaged muscle tissue(s). In effect, initiating the recovery process - changing the catabolic environment to an anabolic environment by nourishing the body with the nutrients it needs to begin the repair process, which will ultimately lead to the growth process.



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