Originally Posted by CowPimp

I don't think training to failure all the time is a good idea. It can work if you use a very low level of volume though.

Originally Posted by DOMS

Training to failure certainly has its appeal. The notion of not stopping until you're forced to, rather than when you choose to, makes it sound as if you're efforts will produce greater strength or hypertrophy (whatever your goals are).

But after listening to the stories of others, reading many an article, and my own personal experiences, I've come to think of 'training to failure' as 'training to injury'.

When you've pushed yourself to the limit your form suffers no matter how hard to try to keep it textbook. Barbells wobble during the bench press, you drop too quickly in the squat, and your back rounds during a pull.

Yeah, I'm sure there is some physiological benefit reaped from training to failure, but it's just not worth it. At least not to me.

Originally Posted by furion joe

When training to failure you do get to choose how you respond to any given rep, set, and exercise. Form should never be compromised; when you reach your limit, the performance capacity of a set, you should still be able to control the last rep.

Training to failure is not something that should be continued indefinitely. It should be part of an intelligent approach to training and included in a comprehensive training program.

If anything, the real danger in training to failure is improper lifting technique and the overuse of the method itself…

Originally Posted by Mike Tuvre, USA

My goal is to have bigger muscles. If injury were not a concern, would going to failure be the best way to tear it down? Thanks.

Originally Posted by Mike Tuvre, USA

Regarding periodization, would taking time off be just as beneficial as going with lighter weight for higher reps and no failure? I've read alot here and other places, and i'm not convinced I can grow bigger from lighter weight more reps, no failure. Personally, when I lift like this I don't sense that my muscles have been torn down. I would rather take time off and rest my CNS (maybe do some cardio), and then go heavy again instead of going lighter. Does this make sense? Thanks.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I dunno man, when I was doing HIT there was no way in Hell I could keep my form looking nice going as hard as I did.

Have you ever hit concentric failure and not given up, you kept pushing, and it took like 20 seconds to push you back down in the hole during a squat? You then continued to push against the bar sitting on the rack for another 20-30 seconds, taken the bar back up, and rest-paused out another couple of reps, taken the bar back up, and rest-paused out another rep or two? I did, and although my form wasn't total garbage, it wasn't as pretty as I like it to be.

Originally Posted by furion joe

Honestly no, not that I can say. Your commitment and dedication to push yourself past your normal limit/threshold is admirable. I've never used the rest-pause technique, even when training to failure, wouldn't even think of it, I'd be dead! lol

Seriously though, I posted that particular statement in general terms so I wouldn't be picking on DOMS. I do not wish to disrespect his way of training or yours for that matter. But, there is no way I can sit back and listen to people talk about training to failure like it has to be an all out, all costs (sacrificing mechanics), type of workout to be successful. Most of what I read, it seems that the method itself is not being utilized properly. If that style of training doesn't work for a particular individual, that's quite alright. He or she can move on and try something else that will work. It just irks me a bit when training to failure is bashed; it's like there is this stigmatism attached to it, and for me, it's not justified.

My interpretation of momentary muscular failure is such that one cannot do another rep without sacrificing form. The last rep should be taxing and a struggle; a chosen movement however, should be fluid and rhythmic, like a piston moving in an engine. Time under tension does make training to failure more of a challenge, but a ratio of 1:1 concentric to eccentric works well for this method, or even 1:2. The basic idea is to think about the muscle and the contraction/stress imposed upon, not so much the weight, it's a means to an end.

All that wiggly, jiggly stuff is no good. When I was younger, I was always pushing the heaviest weights possible, forgoing form and my muscles, joints, and tendons paid for that ignorance/sacrifice. So now, when I hear about, or see people applying improper form to an exercise, I have to shake my head in disbelief. I didn't start to make quality gains in muscle mass until I developed and maintained strict exercise form, even with the last rep of a set, and my joints and tendons were most appreciative. You get to control the movement and the poundage used, not vice versa. That's when things get ugly. My experience thus far with training to failure has been a positive one and I would like people to understand that there is always a risk involved when a certain training method/technique is not followed properly or utilized as effectively as it can be.

Didn't mean to rant or sound annoyed, I just wanted to be thorough and express my own point of view on the subject.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

There are different definitions of failure. Concentric failure and eccentric failure come to mind. When I was doing HIT I attempted to achieve eccentric failure on every set, which can be a little riskier I must admit. When you can no longer lower the weight under control, your form is going to be a little off.

I never bashed failure training. In fact, I made some excellent progress when I was doing HIT. I mentioned a couple of ideas to implement into your training routine to prevent trashing your CNS: using a very low level of volume, taking time off or lowering the level of effort periodically, and switching the exercises frequently. However, I still feel training to failure all the time is not an optimal way of training, and I stand by that statement.

Originally Posted by furion joe

Seriously though, I posted that particular statement in general terms so I wouldn't be picking on DOMS. I do not wish to disrespect his way of training or yours for that matter.

Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf

i'm not a fan of training to failure but that's me.

Originally Posted by DOMS

You write well crafted and thought out posts, there is no way I'd be offended if you directed them specifically at me.

As for training to failure, I do it after a fashion. I'll push myself until I feel that my form starts to suffer. I'll also stop if my tempo moves to far away from my goal. So if my tempo is 1/x/4/x and I find it takes 8 or more seconds to on the concentric, then I stop.

I realize that bodybuilding has an inherent risk and wears on the body, but I've chosen not to do things that increase the risk to much, such as training to true failure, leg extensions, and behind-the-neck presses. But that's just me.