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copper deficiency

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Posted by: hardasnails1973

I just got my labs test back and serum copper and ceruoplasm were low. What are the effects of a proven copper deficiency and how would it impact ones metabolism, digestion, anabolism? I beleive the reasoning for the low levels were too many antagonistic factors sulfur, lipoic, acid, excess zinc, ect
Thanks


Posted by: Trouble

Excess zinc would be my first guess. Acid? Naw..its soluble in acid; to remove acids you want to chelate them, not acidify them. Sulfates/sulfites...whats your source for so much sulfer? Lipoic acid? Sure, it has sulfur and could potentially chelate your copper.

Thing is, a lab test is used to confirm a deficiency. Do you have symptoms of copper deficiency, HAN?

Lets start there. And then talk about copper-containing foods, and its role in health, as a active metal reactive center in many enzyme complexes.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Yes all symptoms of copper: hair loss, lack of appetite, anemic like symptoms even when ferritin, b-12, folic acid is adequete, weight loss, retard growth, low thyroid, chills, lack of pigmentation in skin, and hair discoloration it has like a blue gray tint to it vs normal color, blood sugar irregularities.
Symptoms got worse when following detoxification protocol

i can only speculate becauase symtpoms of copper deficeincy are same as iron..Biggest one is short ness of breath and feeling of lack of oxygen to tissue. Is there a specific one that i should look for

Food wise dr has me eating 6 whole eggs a day organic to try to flush out their assume "mercury toxicity" with 5 grams MSM, 400 mcgs molybenum, 600 mgs alpha lipioic, large dosages of b complexes, folic acid, extra manganese, ketogenic diet ( High fat lots of fruits and veggies) , alot of cocconut oil (saturated fats)

And here I found that high fat and fructose makes copper deficeinc worse!!
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/61/1/105

I have always had low normal copper and ceruoplasm, for longest time (after i got sick) but it was ignored by drs because I was like one point from the lowest number on the serum level but never "out of range" but now symptoms expecially in the blood are really starting to show. Since going on DETOX diet my white blood cell count and neutrophils dropped out of normal range !! Copper based foods before I got sick was NONE!! I did not eat nuts, liver, ect and I read that using stimulents such as caffine and ephederine, winstrol could possible make your body use more copper since adrenals secret adrenailine which stimulate the copper enzyme ceruoplasm. Please correct me if I am wrong on that.

For over 2 years my body was craving nuts, cashews, sunflour seeds, amonds and I never knew why could it been that it wanted the copper in them. all of these unsalted

MY adrenals seem to be functioinig again from stress reduction techniques and also stopping fish extra fish oils which were over loaded in my system from red cell lipid analysis. Since fish oils suppresses immune system, and lowers cortisol.

Serum cortisol verified this at 17 range 4-22. But before the test I was in an arguement with the nurse 5 minutes before the blood drawn. Could this have altered the cortisol response and given a false high?

But I am waiting on the salvia cortisol to come back to verify this. I am not converting t-4 to t-3 optimally and this is a problem from the start could copper be involved some how with this

copper based foods now are nuts, cashew, almonds with 5 mgs copper chelate and reducing the chelating agents (zinc, ALA, mangansese, iron,eggs, fats) and then I can retest from their in 5 weeks to see if they rose.

I took 50 mgs of iron other night and started to hypovenulate ? was that because of low copper levels ?

Does zinc even in chelated form affect copper metabolism ?

What function if any does have copper have on gluthione ?

I was thinking wilson's disease, but I only got check in the eyes no rings were found. Would a copper urine test be more appropiate?

what are Biological implication of low copper ?

Thanks


Posted by: Trouble

>Yes all symptoms of copper: hair loss, lack of appetite, anemic like symptoms even when ferritin, b-12, folic acid is adequete, weight loss, retard growth, low thyroid, chills, lack of pigmentation in skin, and hair discoloration it has like a blue gray tint to it vs normal color, blood sugar irregularities.
Symptoms got worse when following detoxification protocol

Well, we know your thyroid isn't functioning correctly. Skin with a blue-grey tint to it..nail beds would be blue, that would seem to suggest imparied oxygen transport. Zinc also plays a role in pigmentation of skin and hair, and its a known issue for hypothyroidism. Oxygen transport tends to be the domain of heme (iron) function.

We'll get to that one further down in this reply.

I would be ...hestitant to lay all your problems at the feet of mineral deficiency. Your 'detox' program seems to have stripped out some minerals, and thats not a surprise if it featues use of EDTA to chelate mercury.

[HAN, your problem lies in your tinkering with your chemistry..you don't have a disease as much as disrupted tissue function, most of it self induced. Thats a harsh reality, but I'm beginning to suspect its the truth here.]

It has tendency to chelate a lot more than just mercury.

Now, your digestion, and healthy functioning of your gut just might be an issue here. Your have very specific mechansims for elimination of mercury, and that involves blood catalase in lungs, transport of the deactivated mercury to waste processing and diposal (liver) and excretion into the lower GI.

And that is where the facultative anerobes and their ability to access and process excreted compounds comes into play. Fiber consistancy in gut solid waste controls the action of these bacteria, who are there at the end of the pipeline, feeding comensalistically, part of a community, on the flotsam that comes down the food processing pipe/waste disposal system.

By the time excreted metals reaches this population, they should be hindred from accessing fiber bound contaminants, cause its supposed to have a certain consistancy. 'Nuf water bound to keep it mobile, but also enough fiber to give it structure, and provide a safety net to keep these anerobes from reactivating certain contaminants - meaning keeps them turning heavy metals and organic toxins into potenial carcinogens.

Those fecal coliform are sorta neutral players in gut for us...they have a limited role in your gut transformation of food, but an important role in futher breakdown of excreted matter in the environment.

Nature tends to think ahead for whats necessary in chemcial recycle.

So lets get back to your issues...that aside is a hint, to that you look to your diet first off, for a key on how to regain your health.

Healthy diet, rich in fiber, soluble and insoluble, is a key to metal processing and waste disposal. Don't need no chelators - you got them built into a healthy diet and metabolic function in a buncha different tissues.

>alot of cocconut oil (saturated fats)

Moderation here, same as with fish oils. I wouldn't be quick to pitch the baby out with the bathwater. The coconut oil is to help stimulate adnrenal function (which is palmitic acid derived)...but there are better fats for it, one that you have reduced in diet for some reason: ALA.

300 mg of the active form (R-enantiomer, potassium salt) is what you want. Do not use the fuckchop mixed enantiomer form (alpha lipoic acid, mixed R and S), you want the version that is predominantly R form, because the S form seems to have some negative (binding inhibition), and you wouldn't find it in natural sources, it being produced biologically in the R form, and only synthetically in the S form (synthesis yields a 50:50 mix of the the two, in cheap ass supplements).

> And here I found that high fat and fructose makes copper deficeinc worse!!

HAN, fructose is just not a good idea for you, your have insulin sensitivity problems. I think you need to review your diet recommendations and its, ahh, tendency to cause more problems, rather than solve them.

>For over 2 years my body was craving nuts, cashews, sunflour seeds, amonds and I never knew why could it been that it wanted the copper in them. all of these unsalted

Could just as well be a craving for other micronutrients in these foods, including fat. Given that you were, ahh, prone to stripping fat down to real low levels for competition.

>MY adrenals seem to be functioinig again from stress reduction techniques and also stopping fish extra fish oils which were over loaded in my system from red cell lipid analysis. Since fish oils suppresses immune system, and lowers cortisol.

So how much are you taking? Should be about 4-5 grams of pure EPA/DHA, which works out to about 8-10 grams of fish oil.

Too little PUFAn-3 (omega 3s fatty acids) and too much saturated fats, thats asking for problems in phospholipid tissue profiles in membranes. That changes fluidity, and that fluidity affects enzyme function in membranes. Key here is that the PL (phospholipid) composition is unique in various tissues - for a darned good reason, evolutionarily determined.

I think thats part of your problem (membrane fluidity), but I could be wrong. Moderation is what you want here, HAN, you need some, and you need to avoid the pressure from well meaning physicians to over dose, unless there is damn compelling reason for doing so...and even then, its kept short term.

>Serum cortisol verified this at 17 range 4-22. But before the test I was in an arguement with the nurse 5 minutes before the blood drawn. Could this have altered the cortisol response and given a false high?

Maybe, but i think the time of day (like morning) is going to have an overwhelming effect on plasma cortisol measured...like 8 times the concentration of late afternoon. Get my point? The incremental change in a few minutes, ain't be enough to give you a bad number.

> I am not converting t-4 to t-3 optimally and this is a problem from the start could copper be involved some how with this

Thats where glutathione, selenium, methionine and cysteine metabolism come in.

You fucked your adrenals over right good, and they sort shut down on you a while ago. You also have stress control issues that need attention, because all the supps in the world ain't gonna keep you from hypogonadal, hypoadrenal, and hypothyroid issues, if you can't keep a lid on stress...its that evening/early morning (zero hour to 8am) rise in cortisol that you want to keep from being too high, or too low. Interestingly, its the daytime cortisol levels that can drop off and cause overt problems, but its the nightnight elevated cortisol that can sneak up and really muck up thyroid, brain, and adrenal function, from disrupted sleep and cellular repairs.

>I took 50 mgs of iron other night and started to hypovenulate ? was that because of low copper levels ?

No sir, it was due to your fucked up rationalization of your health problems and directly from overdose of iron:

"Serum iron levels greater than 300µg/dL (combined with transferrin oversaturation) may indicate iron poisoning which is characterized by
abdominal pain, diarrhea, or vomiting which progresses to pallor or cyanosis, lassitude, drowsiness, hyperventilation due to acidosis, and
cardiovascular collapse."

This suggests you might have a problem with pH regulation. Carnosine is a pH regulator, as is phosphate. NAC also plays a role.

Does zinc even in chelated form affect copper metabolism ?

>What function if any does have copper have on gluthione ?

You download this pdf and peep this article carefully. The answer is: highly important.

>I was thinking wilson's disease, but I only got check in the eyes no rings were found. Would a copper urine test be more appropiate?

That diagnosis and dignostic test, HAN, lies in the hands of the physicians you're seeing. I'm not here for diagnosis and treatment, just to answer your questions best as I can, but I am not a clinical medical practitioner.

>what are Biological implication of low copper ?

Do a search on the term:

The physiological role of copper....and ...the problems of copper nutritional deficiency.

Its roles include:removing excesses of free radicals, biogenic amines and cholesterol --the proper synthesis of hemoglobin, elastin, collagen and probably thyroid hormones --providing the energy formed in the respiratory chain and needed for biochemical syntheses and proper physical activity.

Not a brief chit-chat topic, but given your concerns, one worthy of your time for a little self education.

Glutathione, thats the ticket you want to concentate on, HAN. Its a big player in the role of renormalizing chemcially interrupted thyroid function.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Thanks these shed alot of light on things. Since my adrenals seem to be functioning sleep quality has improved tremendously, but again to narrow it down just to adrenals with so many other things going on is hard to say. The stress reduction priniciples are defineltyl making a difference.

i am on a well balanced whole food diet with everything in moderation. i use organic butter, EVO olive oil, hemp oil for my fats,

I know my ph is off because my anion gap is way out of range, but they seem not so concerned. All krebs cycle metabolites are low, except ammonia is n normal range. If my body is low on lactic acid and pyruvate in tissues where is it being stored in my blood?

You did make up a good point about soluable and insoluable fiber. It has very little insoluable fiber because of lack of grains, and tons of soluable fiber from green veggies, fruits. Fruits will be moderated to once a day 1 serving. Insolubale fiber will be increased as noted.

Digestion is rather poor but I can not get an GI dr to test for low stomach acids they do not beleive in it, but I do what them to rule out celiac disease or shorten villa. From being hypometabolism digestion is very slow.

Would taking digetive enzyme in offset for the low stomach acids and would I still be able to get the minerals from my food?

I use using the regular ALA vs R-ala could that have made a difference?

i have reduced the zinc to just what is in the multivitamin and no extra
i stopped shot gunning b vitamin and went to lower more balanced approach

Your point about Membrane fluidity seems valid as my body seems to be holding on to toxins and not letting nutrients in.


By RBC lipid profile
ratio of 3:6 omegas was 10:1 vs the 1:4 ratio ---will this impact cell membrane function as you indicated

ferrtin levels serum was 60 out of 300
Calcium levels are now back from high normal to midrange so that is a BIG PLUS


So there have been improvements little bit at a time...
Since rebalancing things breathing has gotten better in last week so we must be on the right track. i am just trying to keep every thing balanced and not go over board like before. THis has been problem drs have been looking at bits and pieces and have not even concidered stress reduction only to have you take paxil and thats there conclusion as diagnosis for many people


Posted by: Trouble

>but again to narrow it down just to adrenals with so many other things going on is hard to say. The stress reduction priniciples are defineltyl making a difference.

Yes, its thyroid, brain and liver. You are a classic case, albeit with a twist from the detoxification treatment.

>i am on a well balanced whole food diet with everything in moderation. i use organic butter, EVO olive oil, hemp oil for my fats.

I will point out two items of concerrn. 1. Your saturated fat intake is high -you should be using olive oil, a product like sesalean for cooking along with EVO, a little walnut oil for variety in your salads, and fish oil. I would avoid the use of butter and reduce your use of coconut fats to a low level.

2. If you have...indulged in ahh, maryjane enjoyment in the past, you may wish to be circumspect in your use of hemp oil. Its not unknown for those with disturbed immune systems to have an internal immune reaction (allergetic) to hemp oil products. That might cause gastric upset, as does butter if one has gallbladder disburbances due to bile acid issues in liver.

>I know my ph is off because my anion gap is way out of range, but they seem not so concerned.

You can remedy that situation. Magnesium citrate provides you with magnesium, which you maybe deficient in, given your leaky cell junction issues in guy and most likely kidney as well. It affords you with a buffering system and also with a fatty acid intermediate for energy.

>All krebs cycle metabolites are low, except ammonia is n normal range. If my body is low on lactic acid and pyruvate in tissues where is it being stored in my blood?

Be glad you don't have ammonia clearance issues, thank god for small miracles. TCA upset, problems with lactic acid transport/membrane translocation, of which there are three independent pathways (see my post in the lactic acid thread)..your problem is that there is disruption at the top of the pathway. You probably need a metabolic pathways lab analysis to get a better picture of where the disruption occurs, and from that, how to supplement and alter diet to help correct it.

>Insolubale fiber will be increased as noted.

Slowly, HAN, add in a little more barley bran to your shakes weekly. No fast changes, your gut can't handle it.

>but I do what them to rule out celiac disease or shorten villa. From being hypometabolism digestion is very slow.

You have a glutamine sulfatase issue. Glutamine supplementation plus magnesium will help. When you take this, use TMG 20 min ahead, to buffer the glucogenic hit to your pancreas. This will also slow gastic emptying, and allow the glutamine to be absorbed a bit better. Again, work up in dose.

>Would taking digetive enzyme in offset for the low stomach acids and would I still be able to get the minerals from my food?

The TMG will help (betaine is acidic) and yes, Super Enzyme by Now Foods might not be a bad idea to help your leaky gut syndrome.

>I use using the regular ALA vs R-ala could that have made a difference?

Geronova has a dependable and reputable form of KRALA that you should be using in preference to the low grade mixed enantiomer form of lipoic acid.

Yes, this might be an issue. If copper is low, the S enantiomer form might be binding copper and giving you no benefit (it is inactive).

>Your point about Membrane fluidity seems valid as my body seems to be holding on to toxins and not letting nutrients in.

Yes, hence the suggestion to improve the unsaturated:saturated ratio of your dietary fat intake.

>THis has been problem drs have been looking at bits and pieces and have not even concidered stress reduction only to have you take paxil and thats there conclusion as diagnosis for many people

Sam-e, if you are not taking it, must be on your list. 200-400mg, twice per day, with water, 20 min before eating. A must for you HAN, your methylations reactions suck. The TMG will also help, delivering extra methyl groups and also affording you a little methionone.

You are taking extra vitamin C, eh? 3-4 grams per day, to help maintain glutathione, which you are also deficient in...selenium methionate, HAN. Use it.

What is test production like? If its low, we will talk about tweeking the pituitary and thyroid to help move it along towards normal.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Yes my dr said I was undermylethated, but I knew this long before hand. My homocystein levels just came back way out of range low so that would verify you saying I am undermethlyenated is an understatement. She did mentioned that methylation is what holds the cell together and with out cells would come unglued so to speak.


Could the over dosing on folonic acid, and methycobalonin drop homocysteine m that low ?

Could the altered thyroid cause the homocystein levels to drop and what are the risk factors for hypohomocystemia?

I was using Samme due to thinning the bile so liver could clear out toxins and glutethioine production, then did switch to TMG at 1000 mgs TID.

REason she had me doing the organic butter , whole organic eggs was because my arachonic acids where dangerously because of epa/dha where off the charts preventing the conversion from GLA to arachonic acid. She was working on stabilizing my membranes through Fatty acid imbalances. i stopped the cocconut oil because specific fatty acids from it was off the charts. I stopped the hemp oil awhile ago and actually just throw it out. It was over 6 weeks old.

All fatty acid metabolism through metaboic testing where also low so could this be preventing the conversion into the needed prostaglandins and giving me fatty acid deficiency since they are not be utlized?

MY liver detoxification test awhile back should low sulfate, low gluthiione, elevated lipid perioxidation.

Would samme be a much better methylator then TMG or would I need both

My serum b-12 and folic acids are off the charts could this be result of being undermethylated, but metabolic profile showed that b-12, folic acid levels were low even though serums where off the charts?

Glutamine seems to be converting to glutamate verified by several urine tests so what is the signficance of this? I have no dectible gabba levels.

Yes you are absolutely right about citric acid, MY citric acid in metabolic testing showed that is was barely even measuring and i was looking for a way to increase it but I did not know how,but if the magnesium citrate would work get kreb cycle moving then I will switch. My krebs cycle is at a stand still !! Are there any other sources of citric acid that could be an alternative source? i can not find citrate as a supplement any where.

What about alkasetzer gold before bed to help reduce acidicity?
My ph of urine and salvia are acid when waking up not during the day time


On the metabolic testing it mentioined about AKG..What significance would that have?

When you speak about metabolic testing I had urine labs ran from great plains and metametrix and both pretty much veryified same thing.
Low citric acid, low gluthione, glycine pathway is weak. What other labs offer this. i am going to have nutritional anayalsis ran by spectracell to see what vitamins i am missing and then supplements accordingly instead of shot gunning high dosages.

Does it matter what brand i use for magnesium citrate any one that you recommend?

Testosrone is in the shitter 200 vs normal 900. using test creme now
Could that put a damper on protein synthesis?
Wouldn't balancing the thyroid and adrenals raise the testosterone ?
dhea is mid normal but I have been supplementing with 50 mgs a day
pregneolone was super low and i found correlation that low pregnelone is related to hypothyroidism GO FIGURE.

I am waiting on the cortisol levels from salvia to verify them so that will give a better over all picture.

I am taking super digestiver enyzme from NOW as well 2 with a meal, i also add a digestive gold in there as well just incase

Yes increasing fiber slowly especially insoluable kind. Stool are mush !! not formed. Colon feels dehyrated and that I do not have the energy to push.

Fiber intake was only 3 TBSP flax seeds and just from veggies (greens, squash,dandilion roots, broccolli, ect) so probably about 20 grams a day-25 MAX mostly soluable and not insoluable

ascorbic acid serum levels are high normal but it looks like it is not getting i guess you say oxidized or metabolized as metabolic testing was showing,
Doesn't too much C chelate copper as well. i been taking 3,000-4,000 mgs for a while years and still it is not metabolizing. My body gets diareahh on 1,000 mgs at a time even with ester -c. i upper vitamin C to 5,000 o time and it made me really tired and only thing I changed.



Yes i am using selenium methylcysteine from jarrow, but my multivitamin i take from metagenics has it in asparate form instead. total is 400 mcgs a day

Could one be insulin resistance even though blood profile does not refect it? such low hdl, elevated ldh, elevated LDL, ect.

With armour thyroid my t-4 rises but t-3 remains the same and RT# elevates this I can not find a dr to explain to me or to treat it. I am waiting to get cortisol test back to see if cortisol levels are low and what was causing me to crash every time I would increase dosages of t-3. On 12.5 mcgs of t-3 my tongue was starting to turn from white to pink and then I upped the dosages slowly to 25 mcgs and I started to get insomnia and very tired during the day time so I know that adreanls where crashing this happened to me before. So I am waiting for test and to go back to dr which is very opened minded about things and is willing to try, but he really does not know and can not find a dr who does around here. From test results armour thyroid seems to be no working and increasing the RT3 which is not good.

Supplements dr recommended based normal CBC and metabolic panel, RBC lipids
1000 mgs b1,b2,b3, b5
20000 mcgs bioton
8000 mcgs folonic acid
10000 mcgs of methylcobalin
400 mgs 5htp
600 mgs theanine
1000 mgs tyrsoine
6 TBSP of balanced EFAS
8 whole organic eggs
300 mgs pregnelone
50 mgs DHEA
inositol 2 grams
PC 3 grams
electrolye fomrula (mg,k,na) balanced alot of it

Number one thing fucked up liver would conversion to coenzymatic forms of b complexes correct?

She is working on
Stabilizing cell membranes through proper fat compostioin 3:6 ratio and diet
balance out the sodium /potassium gates
lower renegades fats - this is done by balancing thyroid and B2 according to her testing results
She preaches methylation but never suggested anything for it - BIG PROBLEM

The report was very impressive and explains it in detail, but when it points out something she seems to skip over it especailly thyroid, adrenals.

Here whole philsophy heal the cell membranes and body will heal itself, but untill that time other areas should be addressed . She has awesome articles her name is Dr Patricia kane, but drs rarely practice what they preach.

Oaktown went to the best thyroid specialist and he wrote in his book about how to address the adrenals first, but neglected to even do that when he stuck him on armour with weaken adrenals.


Posted by: Trouble

>She did mentioned that methylation is what holds the cell together and with out cells would come unglued so to speak.

Ah yes, a reaction type that is common in the body and more recently understood to play a very important role in gene expression and gene maintenance, so it is important to gene transcription, ribosomal translation of transcripts and the protein products, which are modified post translationally, also undergo acetylation / methylation, as well as other modifications.
Its safe to say..it very important.

Now, glutathione metabolism is also predicated on feeds from more than one biosynthetic pathway in the liver. Two of these also donate methyl groups before handing over starting material for glutathione formation. So, there is a tight correlation between the functioning of these pathways. One of them isn't functioning well, chances are, the others aren't either. Hence, your problem with folate regulating homocysteine formation and its reversability for maintenance of methionone.

You, HAN, are methionine deficient. You were probably low going into this debacle, and you tanked it with chemical manipulations..

You can think of these supps as chemical rehab for the liver.

>Could the over dosing on folonic acid, and methycobalonin drop homocysteine m that low ?

No. Its a function of shitty absorption of these supplements from leaky gut, and probably the fact that you have pathway 'leaks' (you aren't recycling glutathione with ascorbate very well, and you may not be shuttling it through the body, if the liver is sucking most of it for itself (uses 70% anyway).

Get my drift? Your body is really short-changed here..on reducing equivalents.

High B6 could scew things up. 100 mg twice a day..time released formula is even better. Have to balance folate and methylcobalamin (there are more active forms of B12 you should look at, maybe consider sublingual format).

Vitamin C for you, is fricking essential, for many reasons, but among them, the cysteine/methionone/folate pathways need it. You need it to regenerate GSH, and my guess is, one is sucking it away from the other other uses.

>Could the altered thyroid cause the homocystein levels to drop and what are the risk factors for hypohomocystemia?

Yes. .

"Most people with a high homocysteine level don't get enough folate (also called folic acid), vitamin B6 or vitamin B12 in their diet. Replacing these vitamins helps return the homocysteine level to normal. Other possible causes of a high homocysteine level include low levels of thyroid hormone, kidney disease, psoriasis, or some medicines."

>I was using Samme due to thinning the bile so liver could clear out toxins and glutethioine production, then did switch to TMG at 1000 mgs TID.

No, you screwed up again. You can reduce somewhat the need for expensive sam-e by supplementing with TMG, but sorry, you can't supplant its use with it. Not a good idea, you need both. For you, 2-4 months minimum 400mg, twice a day, PLUS the TMG, in small doses. Moderation here, we don't want too many methylating equivalents, just enough...an excess has issues as well.

>REason she had me doing the organic butter , whole organic eggs was because my arachonic acids where dangerously because of epa/dha where off the charts preventing the conversion from GLA to arachonic acid. She was working on stabilizing my membranes through Fatty acid imbalances. i stopped the cocconut oil because specific fatty acids from it was off the charts. I stopped the hemp oil awhile ago and actually just throw it out. It was over 6 weeks old.

*shrug* You got a problem that you doctor doesn't quite understand.

The inhibition of AA and inositol by dopamine. It down regulated adrenal function.

Hello??! Yeah, you're not making much GABA, and your dopamine is a little problematic in your brain, your liver and yeah, thyroid and adrenals.

So what we want is to goose up GABA and inositol.

To do that, you take inositol, a little glucuronic acid lactone and a little IP6, not much. 10:2:2 ratio. You take this couple times day, in water. Say 2 tsp worth at a time.

You take taurine, plus magneisum citrate plus GABA (1//4 tsp each). Now, your doctor would argue that GABA won't go up in brain due to BBB (blood brain barrier), but here HAN, we're treating the HPA thru the anterior pituitary (picking up TSH and kickstarting your thyroid) and hypothalamus, and also hitting the D2 in adrenals.

See? Little molecular magic. Now, you gotta have that glutathione up and going, of thyroid production of receptors is gonna be shitty. Need zinc need selenium to do the job. Keep with your zinc, no more than 100mgs, spread out over 3 doses. Find and use the selenium methionate.

Now, cAMP is also problematic here. Depending on how you react, we may use a little forskolin (95%, do not buy the 20%, please), in olive oil, 25 mg doses once or twice a day by oral syringe (to measure accurately)...but we only use that as a last resort to push the pituitary and adrenals into action. And we don't to endlessly push cAMP, that backfires in kidney tubules (promotes growth in basement tissues).

Now glucose metabolism also sucks. You're going to have to use the citrrate as an TCA intermediate.

Get the metabolic assay done, like I said, we have no fricking idea where TCA cycle is being hindered.

Taurine will help two issues: first is low oxygen, high CO2, from improper breathing (stress related, not iron). Second is, it helps with hyperosmotic issues in cells, because you're not regulating water balance right.

>All fatty acid metabolism through metaboic testing where also low so could this be preventing the conversion into the needed prostaglandins and giving me fatty acid deficiency since they are not be utlized?

Nope, its a liver problem. The inositol will help for the reasons stated.

>MY liver detoxification test awhile back should low sulfate, low gluthiione, elevated lipid perioxidation.

No shit sherlock. Now, if you had omega-3 ups the yingyang, it might just be pushing lipid peroxidation, but I kinda doubt it. This is more about whole shortage of reducing equivalents.

NAC, Vitamin C, normal dosing of omega 3, and Coenzyme Q10, Vitamin E mixed tocopherols.

>My serum b-12 and folic acids are off the charts could this be result of being undermethylated, but metabolic profile showed that b-12, folic acid levels were low even though serums where off the charts?

Yeah, and I mentioned this in OTBs thread. Its possible to have a backup in liver and have very low circulating B12 because of an inhibition in other pathways.

This is in the biomed research lit, and it also seems to be part of an issue for some folks for appetite issues (low B12 driving leptin/ghrelin imbalance).

>Glutamine seems to be converting to glutamate verified by several urine tests so what is the signficance of this? I have no dectible gabba levels.

I'm responding to this reply of yours, as I read it first time, and so I am totally not surprised to see this no GABA production (although its always gratifying to read that you know that you're correct via lab analysis). Choline, kid. You gotta upregulate phosphoinositol cycle biosynthesis, and that will help bring up GABA, reduce your NMDA a bit, and help that leaky gut inflammation problem, also help correct the bile acid issue, and while we're at it, correct cholesterol and fat soluble vitamin issues, also blockading adrenals.

> My krebs cycle is at a stand still !! Are there any other sources of citric acid that could be an alternative source? i can not find citrate as a supplement any where.

Jesu, man, use your brain cells! 65K question(s) of the day: what is vinegar?? (we feed the TCA via acetate) What is lemon and orange juice? What is grapefruit??

On the metabolic testing it mentioined about AKG..What significance would that have?

Thats alpha ketoglutaric acid, and its interrconverted by a special biochemical cycle shunt from glutamine in brain.

Glutamine in brain is a key source of energy. Nice if it works right. It can build up and be excitotoxic when GABA and taurine are tanked. As in your case, eh??

And that, my friend, is the kicker behind your unhappy gut.

>Low citric acid, low gluthione, glycine pathway is weak. What other labs offer this. i am going to have nutritional anayalsis ran by spectracell to see what vitamins i am missing and then supplements accordingly instead of shot gunning high dosages.

I found a lab online, I think I might have mentioned it in OTBs thread. Otherwise I have to go look for it again.

Glycine is helped by TMG (trimethylglycine).

>Does it matter what brand i use for magnesium citrate any one that you recommend?

Nope, its all reagent grade, I would use NOW, bulk 8 oz, just because its cheap and they are reliable, you can throw it in water and suck it down.

>Testosrone is in the shitter 200 vs normal 900. using test creme now
Could that put a damper on protein synthesis?

Yeah, its blocking protein synthesis.

You get leucine and BCAAs and you start using 'em, OK? Also HMB.
Might as well get that protein synthesis going and slow down proteolysis (which you are using for energy), while the inositol mix starts up the TSH-LH armature in pituitary and thyroid to push your adrenals and testes into test production.

capice? This is kinda nice how it fits together.

Forskolin, later. Not now, not until we get liver looking better. eh?

>Wouldn't balancing the thyroid and adrenals raise the testosterone ?
dhea is mid normal but I have been supplementing with 50 mgs a day
pregneolone was super low and i found correlation that low pregnelone is related to hypothyroidism GO FIGURE.

Yeah, it helps to supply the right pathway. We're going MUCH higher on the ladder of chain of command, so at some point, your test and preg supplemention should be superflurous (we hope).

>I am taking super digestiver enyzme from NOW as well 2 with a meal, i also add a digestive gold in there as well just incase

What the hell is digestive gold?? The super enzyme is good enough. Don't add anything else yet, OK?

>Yes increasing fiber slowly especially insoluable kind. Stool are mush !! not formed. Colon feels dehyrated and that I do not have the energy to push.

Yeah, the fiber will help a ton, as weill slowing adding vegetables and more protein to your diet. Slow and easy, though, on fiber...you gut needs to get used to it.

I think we might just start programming your gut microflora next. One thing at time.

Nice to know that I seem to be calling your issues accurately...and I got some tricks up my sleeve, some shared here already, that should be very helpful to you and to a number of others who have similar problems.

>Yes i am using selenium methylcysteine from jarrow, but my multivitamin i take from metagenics has it in asparate form instead. total is 400 mcgs a day

Next time, get the methionine form instead. This is tricky..I think you should stay at 400, but you may need to bump it up. It bioconcentrates, and that makes me uneasy about recommending more. Sit tight on what you using, its what the Mayo Clinic recommends for adult males.

>Could one be insulin resistance even though blood profile does not refect it? such low hdl, elevated ldh, elevated LDL, ect.

Duh. Cholesterol metabolism is controlled by insulin. Too much, and you get your profile.

T4 to T3 is an enzyme reaction.

TMG will down regulate insulin surging. Side bonus, and the glucuronic pathway nudge (with the lactone) will help energy (TCA workaround) and help with insulin sensitivity as well.

The enzyme expression is regulated by free fatty acids --> yours are high, and its blocking conversion of T4.

Fix your liver, kid. Inositol plus the other supps we talked about, will bring it back online eventually. See? Liver doens't work right, key biological lipids produced in the liver get out of balance, and they run much of the big picture mechanics at the gene activating level, through nuclear receptors -throughout the body. I talk about this on other forums in quite a bit of detail that would go sailing over heads here. We'll use the practical ends of molecular biology and biochemisry to get your health back again.

Sound like a plan, HAN?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

So basically problem is clogged up liver and dyfunctioinal HPA affecting the hormonal cascade as well as mitochondrion (krebs cycle)

To summerize

1. clear out the liver by increasing my methylation with samme, TMG. This should jump start gluthione production as well in the liver. The subligual form of methylcobalmin with folonic acids is going to activate the methionne synthase which is going to convert homocystein generated from the samme back into methionne. This should also help serotonin levels and melatonin as well and balance other neurotransmitters
2. prevent glutemine from going to glutemate by replacing taurine, gabba. This should also help heal leaky gut if present by increasing glutemine supply
3. With the inositol mixture we are going to help jumpstart the HPA (top of the ladder) as well as help methlyation
4 by clearing the liver this will help to increase the conversion from t-4 to t-3 as well as to clear the used hormones out. HMMMM could the deactivated hormones of t-3 floating arounf be blocking the receptors for new t-3 to use?


You are right again about homocysteine was being shutted into cysteine pathway vs being recycled back to methione metabolic testing should cysteine, serine, and taurine were in normal ranges and the supplements they were recommending your folic acid and b-12 not b-6. Again metabolic testing showed low methionne levels go figure LOL

To verify my serum b-12,P5P,folic acid where 1000 times the highest range!! This worries me alot. No one could give me an explanation other then I found
Small bacterial overgrowth for elevated folic acid, but a low b-12 would be present. i found elevated serum b-12 is indicated in increased heart disease as well. i also found that this is related to liver dyfunction (DUH) This concerns me about drs not following up to find reason why

B-6 is fucking something up because my serum P5P is elvevated off the charts , but in metabolic testing it is deficient this is pretty much with all of my b vitamins. Zinc deficinecy could be behind this because it breaks helps remove the phosphate. i found this in nut gov't data base. I have been taking alot of zinc but its the ATP that helps carry it over intestinally,

Would taking zinc gluconate tabs get around this at all since it sublingual form?

Actually my blood profile is opposite i was making a statement that can one be insuline resistant not having that profile?

My profile shows that of low insulin just the opposite that is what is puzzling
I have low cholesterol, low LDH, low ldl, normal HDL, elevated bilirubin, high anion gap, low alkaline phosphotase, low WBC, low neutrophills, LOW homocysteine, elevated albumin if this helps

REsults verified by metabolic test where
elevated sarcosine, carnosine, enzymes related to zinc difficency for protein digestion, all low Essential amino acids,low gabba, glutemine, Gofigure


Where do you get glucuronic acid lactone. i have some thing call calcium d-glutarate is that the same?

Yes something is going on with my blood sugar i tested and ate a 50-75 grams of carbs from baked potatoes glucose went from 86 to175 in an hour and then after 3 hours was only 135? could this be from lack of insulin due to liver congestion

Yes I have been using 2 TBSP of organic apple cider vinegar a day so that porbably helping in the krebs cycles if its getting in there in the first place.

supplememet review
samme 400 MGS BID (20 minutes before meals) with TMG 1000 mgs BID
inositol mixture breaks down to how mgs? per 2-3 times a day roughly.
gabba,magnesium, taurine = 500 mgs of each 2-3 times a day approximately
BCAAS 2-3 times a day moderate dosages
glutemine may be 5 -10 grams a day for now
Back of the b-6 so homocysteine could be recylced back to methionne
HMB
not going to touch foreskins or long jack yet untill you suggest when
i am currently taking probiotic omh -12 3 before bed time no more


What about phosphodyl choline is it necessary or just the inostiol should be enough?

When you mentioin bile acids is this also meaning bile production as well?

Could zinc deficiency be also caused by lacking thyroid. i read few articles saying that zinc and other minerals may not rise untill 2-3 month lag time of balanced thyroid? are you familar with this

Would you recommending going to an immunologist to see if there is possible a hidden infection affecting my immune system just to rule out the possbility of extra metabolic stress.

i am going to conquer this !!


Posted by: Trouble

what are your free fatty acids like - from liver lipid panel?

High, low, what.

Zinc gluconate plus ascorbate (losenges) I Herb.com

glurcuronic acid lactone - Bulk Nutrition

You had one hell of blood glucose spike. 138 afterwards..holy shit. You don't have insulin deficiency, but you might have a pancreas that isn't working well due to glutathione and methy groups being exceptionally low.

Do you use whey protein drinks?

mito function is fucked - you're not transporting factors in worth beans. Thats because TCA is so screwed up I guess. Try one tablespoon of vinegar before each meal, 10-12 minutes. Well after you use ALA and TMG.

Kinda interesting you can walk around...energy metabolism is certainly not functioning correctly.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Low triglycerids, low cholesterol, low ldh, normal HDL, glucose 84, inuslin fasting 1.75 (0-20), high Mch high MCHC, low platelets, low WBC, RDW low, co2 normal, bilirubin elevated,

i am not metabolising SHIT !! and all metabolic enzymes of protein, carbs and fats are at dead even same low level showing hypometabolism !!

is there a way to post lab test here so you could view ?

i was thinking of a glucose tolerace test good idea? i have metformin here but I want to check lactic acid levels first in serum before messing with any thing else.. actually I got so much going on do not need more variables added to the mix. its all just bandaid not the root cause.

LDH isoenzyme test would be nice would not it LOL

I AM FUCKED !!! no wonder not converting to t-3 and other factors
ZRT LABS 24 hour cortisol results

dhea 41 ranges 3-10
morning 1.7 ( 3-8)
12 pm .5 ( 2-4)
4 pm .2 ( 1-2)
bed time .2 (.5 - 1.5)

No wonder my digestion and immune system is FUCKED !!! no cortisol

Yes take whey protein isolates - stay away from casien based due to possible allergies.


Posted by: Trouble

Blood lipids are low. Cholesterol synthesis is blocked.

Bile acids - nonconjugated are high in liver (high bilirubin) --> liver dysfunction, Gilbert's Syndrome?? (benign, non life threatening)..watch out for liver cleansing herbs - stay far away. I helped someone here when I first joined who had this problem and when the solublized bile acid load his his brain, he had lasting damage for many months afterwards. I seem to recall a scratching of heads at my read of the situation - a very odd case.

Low insulin. You don't release enough - hypoglycemic for another reason. Whoa. Doctor say anything about diabetes (adult onset) to you??

G:I is 48 --> not likely to be insulin insensitive

> high MCHC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_co..._concentration

Cold agglutination OR excess iron

Pretty undernourished for sure. Low platelet count. Low immune factors.
So much is down...operating at bare minimum

i am not metabolising SHIT !! and all metabolic enzymes of protein, carbs and fats are at dead even same low level showing hypometabolism !!

The acetic acid and citric acid will help slow release of food. You will have to eat more meals,

> there a way to post lab test here so you could view ?

I don't provide that kind of service here, HAN.

http://web2.airmail.net/uthman/lab_test.html

> was thinking of a glucose tolerace test good idea? i have metformin here but I want to check lactic acid levels first in serum before messing with any thing else.. actually I got so much going on do not need more variables added to the mix. its all just bandaid not the root cause.

No sir, you have the OPPOSITE problem, you may be borderline diabetic. Do not touch that Metformin.

>LDH isoenzyme test would be nice would not it LOL

Other liver enzymes would be nice as well.

be very careful to avoid hypoglycemia using the supps and dietary approach advocated. You need to actually induce insulin production, to drive glucose metabolism and fatty acids synthesis and glycogen storage.


Posted by: BigDyl

Hardasnails, dude, what has caused all these problems? Did the originate from anabolics somehow?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Big D i had not been on steroids for 9 months prior to this bullshit. Before i stated dieting i had blood test and dr praised me he had not scene one this healthy in over 10 years. after contest My immune system was down from dieting and starving my self, overtraining and like a jackass i listen to people and went back to eating normal (higher sugar intake due to it was the holidays so I indulged. i had not had sugar in my system for almost over a year !! my diet was so strict cheat meal was chicken parm once every 2 weeks and when I shifted back to eatin "normal" it shocked my already immune sytem and this is a none fact. i bet if I check my blood sugar over a 6 month peroid now it would be high because of low insulin out put from many reasons. during week before getting sick they were spraying chemicals at work in the bathrooms and after 3 days I started noticing brain fog, spacey out and getting head aches. They eventually moved me. I have always been chemical sensitive. Then I ate about 100 pieces of sushi with weaken immune system got sick went to dr. Told him what i ate he told me bacterial infection do not happen to healthy people and then few days latter my stomach turned red and temperature started to drop like a rock starting shivering and turning ghost white. I had altered bowel movements that they labels to being in my head but in reality it was chain reaction of the intestinal infection altered digestion and then the hormonal cascade went from their


"Bile acids - nonconjugated are high in liver (high bilirubin) --> liver dysfunction, Gilbert's Syndrome?? (benign, non life threatening)..watch out for liver cleansing herbs - stay far away. I helped someone here when I first joined who had this problem and when the solublized bile acid load his his brain, he had lasting damage for many months afterwards. I seem to recall a scratching of heads at my read of the situation - a very odd case."

BINGO !!! I have been taken milk thisltel, dandiolion, artichoke mixture not knowin, explains elevated bilirubin and my yellow appearance that no one could see except the one dr and took a picture !! Thats been stopped!! Also you mentioined gilberts and SAMME is used to help that if I remember correctly? I had elevated iron at the time but now its normal again

other liver enzyme Sgot, GGt, ALT all dead mid ranges
albumin was elevated slightly, iron was high normal - BEt you from liver cleansing herbs, ferritin dropped from 135 to 85 in 4 months
kidney functions all normal but at the low normal range due to protein deficiency

would balancing thyroid/adrenals help regulate insulin levels ?
i agree I have all opposite signs of insulin resistance. Could sore feet explain possible blood sugar problems. And insulin drive nutrients into the cell .mmmmm could there be a connection. Get this to correct an arachonic acid deficiency the treat ment of course is insulin how ironic?

How severe will the insulin dyfunction affect nutrient uptake in the cell?
All my urine test showed low to no creatine in them !! no it was not getting uptake into the cell and metabolized...hmmm lack of insulin again

liver profile show low sulfate levels and is it correct you need sulfur and proteins to make insulin?

inositol you recommended is noted to help diabetes as well so that is a good thing.

Decreased serum alkaline phosphatase may not be clinically significant. However, decreased serum levels have been observed in hypothyroidism, scurvy, kwashiokor, NO SHIT !!

Increased serum anion gap reflects the presence of unmeasured anions, as in uremia (phosphate, sulfate), diabetic ketoacidosis (theres possbile mention of diabetes)!!

Carbs right now are all low glycemic.Dr wanted me to eat 1 potatoe a day have not been doing that instead of eating yams and lower glycemic veggies
her diet she had me on was more like a ketogenic diet to suppress blood and insulin levels. So in current stage eating a balanced diet of protein , low glycemic carbs, fats is best to do?


You can thank the drs for fucking me up for not taking care of a simple intestinal infection from contaminated food !! That was the start of all this bull shit. i know for a fact it was infection stomach was bright red 4 days later and hot to the touch but immune system was to run to down from dieting, chemical exposures at work, general, stress , and training to combat it..

i got more samme so starting 400 mgs 2 times a day and staying there

Doesn;t insulin raise cortisol levels or is it vice versa ?

What other blood test would be appropiate
Ha1bgc - glucose test over time
methioine synthase - would indicat how fucked up my methylation is and methycobolin deficiency
Ldh isoenzymes
Free t3 and free t4
CBC
metabolic panel
insulin free and fasting
any others you can recommend i have good insurance but running out fast !!


Posted by: Trouble

OK...

We already talked about how we can use the inositol to bring pituitary, thyroid and adrenals back on line. That will help with test and also paradoxically with liver function and lipid metabolism. It should bring fatty acid metabolism, plus TCA back on line as well, but you need the intermediates too.

S = taurine, cysteine, methionone, sam-e, we bring up methylation and glutathione, and that will help GABA, but you're taking some as well.

Remember, fucked up GABA, means NMDA problems. You might want to try choline and also ALCAR, carnitine is another reducing equivalent you're not making, and it should help with the gastric emptying and pancreas (as will the taurine).

You're going to start taking slower release carbs with your protein shakes, and you're use protein shakes to help mend your gut.

Sounds backwards, trust me on this one. You need to be evaluated for diabetes, adult onset, insulin-requiring. This may be temporary, or not even a very big issue, if cortisol comes back up again, insulin may as well.

I don't think you need a whole lot of tests. More patience and maybe giving my current set of recommendations a try.

You're already headed in the right direction.

Sure you had that gut infection, but HAN, it wasn't the core reason for whats happened, that was a secondary effect set up by conditions of diet and altered body morphology, which you went after the hard way for sure.

Looking back, pointing fingers won't help. If you're still thinkng you have an infection issue, add cordyceps to your list and start taking it.

Otherwise, I think we got most of the bases covered.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Your right we will never know what happened so no sense of thinking about. Now we just have to deal with task at hand and getting back to healthy liver, and endocrine system that is my goal and to get back to anabolic phase vs catabolic. i have all required supplements will order the glutaric acid and get the zinc lozengers. is there a multivitamin that you recommend that has most absorbable minerals/ vitamins? i am using metagenics right now all purpose with out iron.

Shakes whey isolate good enough or should I miss whey with rice protein is better. How many shakes a day you recommend 2-3 and since they are broken down already absorption should be alot better then food correct.

The Amino urine test was showing low peptidase due to zinc deficeincy. Appears aminos are being broken down but not peptides bonds are not going into free form Could this be from the leaky gut issue?

What is your opinon of melatonin since my cortisol levels are below normal at night would it hinder anything at all ?

ALcar - 500 mgs 2 times a day be a good support? I am eating alot more red meat as well 1 serving a day at least and turkey burger for trytophan

What would cause a cAMP deficiency?

how is diabetes is tested for other then blood test which my are all normal?

Thats why i like your approach so much better you tend to address each layer of things instead of starting at the bottom of the water fall but rather starting at the top and working down.


Posted by: Trouble

>multivitamin that you recommend that has most absorbable minerals/ vitamins?

Pediatric liquid vitamins maybe, dosing will be an issue.

>Shakes whey isolate good enough or should I mix whey with rice protein is better.

Whey WPC with WPI, microfiltation plus cross flow, most of the general name brand, low lactose will work. Need to start feeding your gut microbes, add first barley bran, because you aren't going to tolerate much oatbran, so you start off pure barely, then titer in oats, until your pure oats, 1/4-1/2 cut, in 60 g of whey. Sip it over a half hour. Four times a day. Food first thing in the morning and last thing at night, two drinks supplemented with noormal protein, and a Pre and post WO whey shake, then eat, 1 hr later, regular meal. We gonna jump your calories up slow. You need cardio and what ever yoiu can do for regular weight resistance training.

>Appears aminos are being broken down but not peptides bonds are not going into free form Could this be from the leaky gut issue?

No, quit reading in that zinc def. Problem with your digestive enzymes lies elsewhere. The Super Enzyme mix will have endopeptidases in it, so don't sweat the protein breakdown..thats one of the reasons I'm breaking my normal rule on whey daily use with you.

>What is your opinon of melatonin since my cortisol levels are below normal at night would it hinder anything at all ?

Theanine and GABA, unless you aren't sleeping well, no melatonin, eh?

>What would cause a cAMP deficiency?

Lack of reducing equivalents, shitty ALA source, hindered androgen production. Crappy thyroid.

>how is diabetes is tested for other then blood test which my are all normal?

glucose test, with 15 min draws on insulin and glucose, they use the ratios to figure out if you're releasing or not on cue.

>Thats why i like your approach so much better you tend to address each layer of things instead of starting at the bottom of the water fall but rather starting at the top and working down.

I look for patterns. You give me decent feedback, and I can make some educated guesses on what going on, and refine with additional Q and A.

I am not a substitute for a physican, I can give you some simple solutions to try, I think they should work. No rocket science, couple of clever tweeks.

Need to get that insulin question addressed pronto.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Oh boy you are going to kill me. during the contest i was using ALA shitty brand like it was PEDS. i mean like 1-2 grams a day with out biotin and was taking a shitty multivitamin at same time.

My appetite SUCKS because of low cortisol. and feels like food is not digested in shot into colon just sits in gut and does not move.

Will oats irritate the intestines if there is any inflamation present? According to stool sample my Siga was fine that was 6 months ago

i keep seeing floaters in my eyes (look like black dots moving in line of vision) is this from the liver clogging up ?

making drs appointment tommorrow..Diabetes been floating around in my mind for longest time as well..runs on my uncles side.

How much cardio per day or week , would this cause help to fire up mitochondrion ?

Why do i get like a niacin flush reaction after gabba with out the redness?
at 500 mgs my body starts to tingle and heat up a bit?

What is your opinon on this multivitamin
http://www.druckerlabs.com/intramax.html

hypohomocysteinemia and diabetes
http://www.eb2006-online.com/pdfs/00...6bdd8f67ecf536

So for meals
break fast and dinner or after post workout meal all solid food
Then do 4 drinks with slow releasing carbs 1/4-1/2 cut barely bran then oat bran basically eat every 3 hours for 6 meals a day ( 2 solid 4 liquid /slow carbs) is the pre and post just whey or is both carbs/proteins.

protein mix i have has 300 mgs calcium per 25 grams protein thats 2400 mgs of calcium a day. Plus my calcium levels are elevated as well Will this affect them and push them even higher?


Should drinks have Essenetial fats in them?


The whey protein I am using is Alltheway.

CASE CLOSED !!It is clear that hormonal regulation plays a significant role in controlling the metabolism of homocysteine, as exemplified under diabetic conditions. In the absence of other complications, diabetes is characterized by hypohomocysteinemia that appears to be due, at least in part, to enhanced catabolism of homocysteine through the transsulfuration pathway. A primary regulatory focus in this respect is the increased expression and activation of CBS and its subsequent down-regulation by the action of insulin.


Posted by: Trouble

>Oh boy you are going to kill me. during the contest i was using ALA shitty brand like it was PEDS. i mean like 1-2 grams a day with out biotin and was taking a shitty multivitamin at same time.

That wasn't the sum cause of your present difficulties, but like I said, pointing fingers isn't going to help. Back a few frames in this thread, I gave you a source of KRALA, buy it and use it - carefully, to avoid going hypo.

>My appetite SUCKS because of low cortisol. and feels like food is not digested in shot into colon just sits in gut and does not move.

Yeah, you're neither releasing bile bile acids to aid in fat absorption nor are you producing sufficient insulin to drive glucose transport. Thats why you went hyperglycemic on glucose loading.

I got a kid on another forum, just like you...and I'm thinking the same thing, adrenal and pancreatic issues. But he's got a twist, constant hunger. You both have CCK issues, but opposite of one another. Given your liver B vitamin issues, I would have expected polyphagia out of you as well, early morning. Not sure if there are psychological factors here or biochemical.

>Will oats irritate the intestines if there is any inflamation present? According to stool sample my Siga was fine that was 6 months ago.

There would be a tendency to be inflammed by a trigger, not sure if you have constant inflammation. Sometimes oats worsen IBS, sometimes makes it better. I would use it, in small doses, with your shake, and you might want to add a little olive oil (EVO), its been shown to help IBS when included in diet, and if it doesn't trigger problems (like you saturated fats would), then it should help your calorie intake and absorption as well.

>keep seeing floaters in my eyes (look like black dots moving in line of vision) is this from the liver clogging up ?

Lack of reducing equivalents (anti-oxidants) in the vitreous humor and maybe lens. I think you can purchase ALCAR drops for eyes and these are purported to help the condition.

>How much cardio per day or week , would this cause help to fire up mitochondrion ?

We want moderate walks, for stress control, regulating breathing, and starting up metabolism in all muscle fibers. We'll use the TCA intermediates to help fuel it, and maybe with the inositol, you'll get a return of thyroid and insulin function. Got a dog? If not, find one, and walk it.

>Why do i get like a niacin flush reaction after gabba with out the redness?
at 500 mgs my body starts to tingle and heat up a bit?

Cause you're high sensitive to it, and your getting a stimulation effect from what could normally be suppressive. You need to take smaller doses, more frequently.

>What is your opinon on this multivitamin

No comment. Don't know it.

Eat lots of small meals throughout the day...very small...every 2 hrs.

>Then do 4 drinks with slow releasing carbs 1/4-1/2 cut barley bran then oat bran basically eat every 3 hours for 6 meals a day ( 2 solid 4 liquid /slow carbs)


protein mix i have has 300 mgs calcium per 25 grams protein thats 2400 mgs of calcium a day. Plus my calcium levels are elevated as well Will this affect them and push them even higher?

Yup, get a whey drink without the extra calcium. The magnesium will help improve calcium uptake, you've got a hypomagnesium issue (which may cause muscle spasms if you're not taking mag and taurine).


>Should drinks have Essenetial fats in them?

see my comments on olive oil, up top.


>transsulfuration pathway

Well, this is screwed up for sure, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions on the etiology here. Its more complex than that, given your history in bbing.

Hope you found my feedback helpful.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Yes feed back is very informative and i understand about 90% of it.

Now i made an appointment for glucose tolerance test for next week..Dr was a jack ass and giving me a hard time. I politely told him diabetes does run in my family and serum tests are worthless for some people. Just for a hoot I took blood sugar reading before and after each meal and averaged them during the time a wake. It came to 145 !!. Seems after 2-2,5 hours blood does not drop back to base line of even around a hundred How ever in the morning it is 86.

You mentionsed about cck and i was wondering if this high fat diet these drs had me on could be increasing the somatostatin preventing the insulin and glucagon and possible gh release. I concur you that it is not insulin resistance because blood test are just opposite (insulin deficieny or some kind glucose intolerance). So something is suppressing my insulin levels or my pancrease is toasted (hope that is not the case).

Could my thyroid out put be so low that it is now affecting insulin secretions?

Also to bottom of my feet have been killing me for past year or so and drs do not ever common.

Could Prolong hyperglycemia from excessve adrenalone release cause increased oxidative stress to the liver and also pancrease resulting in first insulin resistance which blood test 12 months ago indicating (low hdl, elevated ldl) and is now pancrease is just either a sleep or dyfunctional?


Many GI complications of diabetes seem to be related to dysfunction of the neurons supplying the enteric nervous system. Just as the nerves in the feet may be affected in peripheral neuropathy, involvement of the intestinal nerves may lead to enteric neuropathy. This is a type of autonomic or "involuntary" neuropathy and may lead to abnormalities in intestinal motility, sensation, secretion, and absorption. Different nerve fibers can either stimulate or inhibit intestinal motility and function, and damage to these nerves can lead to a slowing or acceleration of intestinal function, giving rise to a variable symptom complex. This article will highlight the most common GI disorders seen in people with diabetes

If cortisol levels rise will also insulin?
The glucose tolerance test will show if there is insulin dyfunction


Posted by: Trouble

Did you doctor mention the insulin suppression test?

>You mentionsed about cck and i was wondering if this high fat diet these drs had me on could be increasing the somatostatin preventing the insulin and glucagon and possible gh release.

See [url=http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/135/11/2535] this article. In the brain, apo-lipoprotein receptors activated by saturated fats are linked to enervation of somatostatin action in panreas, which controls both glucagon and insulin. The polymorphisms discussed indicated population variability in the effects of dietary fats and their role in regulating insulin sensitivity.

Beyond that, the article suggests the resulting free fatty acids, as well as hyperglycemia play a role in other pathways; I've mentioned high level control at nuclear receptors.

>Also to bottom of my feet have been killing me for past year or so and drs do not ever comment.

Neuropathy usually goes the other way (loss of sensation in peripheral tissues); inflammation is a more likely explanation.

>Could Prolong hyperglycemia from excessve adrenalone release cause increased oxidative stress to the liver and also pancrease resulting in first insulin resistance which blood test 12 months ago indicating (low hdl, elevated ldl) and is now pancrease is just either a sleep or dyfunctional?

Sorta. The problem is more with screwed up liver biosynthetic pathways and their cross talk with other organs.

>GI complications of diabetes seem to be related to dysfunction of the neurons supplying the enteric nervous system.

We've already covered this angle.

>If cortisol levels rise will also insulin?

Maybe. Don't know. You would need to have insulin sensitivity assessed sequentially over a period of a year or two to analytically determine how well you are responding. You can use subjective measures to follow progress made in addressing inter-related metabolic issues.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Does elevated VLCFA help shed some light on things ?


Posted by: Trouble

Why don't you tell me, HAN?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Sensai

A build up of VLCFA is indictative of weak peroxisomes function or proliferation. Perioxisomal proliferation is stimulated by toxic substances as well as thyroid and dhea, pyruvates, coenzymes riboflavin and manganese

If there is no pyruvate or lactic in the krebs cycle this could cause a slight problem and was verified on metabolic testing

Adrenal Hypoplasia Congenita cause VLCFA to build up and can not be broken down.

Because the VLCFA cannot be broken down, they accumulate throughout the body in the plasma, especially in the brain and the adrenal glands. While it is unclear if the VLCFA cause the deterioration or are simply another symptom of the disease, the destruction of the myelin sheath surrounding the nerves leads to neurological problems, and the adrenal gland malfunction leads to Addison's Disease.

Although VLCFA accumulation is ubiquitous, the nervous system, the adrenal cortex and the testis are specifically impaired. HMMM

Adrenomyeloneuropathy is a rare X-linked inherited disorder of peroxisomes characterized by theaccumulation of very long chain fatty acids (VLCFA) in the central and peripheral nervous system, adrenalglands and testis leading to the dysfunction of these organs and systems

When VLCFAs accumulate due to abnormal functioning of the peroxisomes, they are disruptive to the structure and stability of certain cells, especially those associated with the central nervous system and the myelin sheath, which is the fatty covering of nerve fibers. The peroxisomal disorders that include effects on the growth of the myelin sheath are considered to be part of a group of genetic disorders referred to as leukodystrophies.


My impression is that due to the adrenal insuffiencey this was causing them to build up where they come from I can speculate endogenously from betaoxidation? The build up then causes shut down of adrenals and testosterone.

Keeps mentioinig lorenzo's oil ? and also coenyme A synthase breaks the VLCFA down.
This sums it up nicely - its from adrenal insuffiency
http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...ull/12/10/1145

When you mentioned inflammation would that be refering to pancreatic or mylenation of nerves ?
MY gut feeling is leaning towards insulin deficiency NOT resistance because
Arachondonic acid was deficient in red blood cell and insulin raises it !!

You mentioned about magnesium leaking, i found information that adrenal insufficiency cause magnesium to be excreted from the cell and causes a magnesium deficiency. This could be a huge factor in insulin production

Would a fasting insulin serum of 1.25 (0-20) be a slight problem or possible flag for insulin defiiency?

Did I do a good job on my first assignment


Posted by: Trouble

Grasshopper:

From my post #8:

"Now, cAMP is also problematic here. Depending on how you react, we may use a little forskolin (95%, do not buy the 20%, please), in olive oil, 25 mg doses once or twice a day by oral syringe (to measure accurately)...but we only use that as a last resort to push the pituitary and adrenals into action. And we don't to endlessly push cAMP, that backfires in kidney tubules (promotes growth in basement tissues)."

cAMP is a result of PPAR-alpha stimulation

point covered already.

You do not have the congenital problem, but yes, you do have a problem with PPAR, more a problem with ETC in mito..both forms of energy production, in mito and peroxisomes, if fucked up.

Yes, your low insulin reading is what gave me pause..we covered that a few frames back as well.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

I ordered the Krala that you recommmended and tossed out that NOW ALA i was using. I read up and Rala should help glucose up take into the cell and help fire up the mitochondrion. I never knew that s isomer could shut ATP production down ...learn something new every day..

HMMM since no glucose is getting used into the cell and this causing cell starvation and RT3 rise during staravation ...This could explain alot but I wish it was as simple as that LOL

Yeah I read those three big poly words a few threads back and they were associated with hyperglycemia, except I have no appetite and that could be from adrenal insuffiency I suppose.

I am deficeincy in LA an ALA essential fats by RBC lipid profile

Is this crebile that lack of EFA can cause cAMP disruption?
Alam et al. (1995) also presented evidence that cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) production can be impaired in EFA deficiency, which would manifest as decreased sensitivity to catecholamines, with subsequent reduced thermogenesis. Clandinin et al. (1992) similarly showed that linoleic acid increased the binding of insulin to adipose tissue cells (and thus improved their metabolic responses

Do you think it be wise to build up r ALA first before using the ALCAR since the ALCAR could cause even more free radicals and possible further deplete antioxident reserves or using them together counter act that effect.

waiting , willing and eager to learn


Posted by: Trouble

>I never knew that s isomer could shut ATP production down ...learn something new every day..

Yes, its like it would self cancel, one entantiomer against the over. Same with CLA, one isomer is bad karma for insulin sensitivity, but the other seems to promote it.

No, like the classic hardgainer, the problem is more complex.

>I am deficeincy in LA an ALA essential fats by RBC lipid profile

Yes, and you must have noticed that your low platet count also is like the diabetic blood component profile..that was also a clue.

>Is this crebile that lack of EFA can cause cAMP disruption?

Yes sir, althought there are more recent citations that support those earlier conclusions. EFAs are one of a handful of bioactive lipids at actually bind in the nucleus, to regulatory (nuclear) receptors. Couples, or suite of four or more, interact at these binding sites in a push pull fashion to control them...keep them in neutral. When one is missing, you have problems. Note that PUFAn-3 (omega 3s) also play a role in inflammation control, as do other antioxidants. You are low in almost all of them. Good thing respiration is shitty, eh?

>Do you think it be wise to build up r ALA first before using the ALCAR since the ALCAR could cause even more free radicals and possible further deplete antioxident reserves or using them together counter act that effect.

Yes, although I thought I mentioned that ALCAR itself is an important neuroprotective agent (antioxidant). It operates as a couple. You need to keep it in regeneration to keep it from being harmful - same with the others, thats why you use moderation in their use, never go overboard in dosing.

Good reply.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

SO having insulin deficeincy would cause fatty acids not to be transported into the cell and this would result in decrease in lipid profile, and well as a weaken immune system from lack of platlets, and white blood cell counts.

I found correlation that diabetic cystic fibrosis people have altered lipid profiles as well as protein, carb, fat deficiencies as well.

Here is something interesting I was think
Since LA -gla-dgla- prostaglandin 1 or AA and insulin slows the conversion of LA to GLA then would a deficiency causes it to speed up resulting in a deficeincy LA and elevated DGLA which my RBC lipid profile does show?

It appears that fats are getting in to the cell, but are getting converted at such a fast rate and because of insulin dyfunction the DGLA is never getting converted to AA. So in theory that high carbohyrate diets cause in crease inflammation is because increased insulin would cause greater arachondic acid and more PGE2.

This is identical to my profile as mentioned above
Fatty acid compositions of phospholipids of heart, liver, kidney, aorta, and serum from rats having streptozotocin-induced diabetes were determined and compared with those of nondiabetic controls. Linoleic and dihomo- -linolenic acids were increased whereas arachidonic acid was decreased in most tissues, suggesting an impairment of 5-desaturase activity. Acids derived from linolenic acid were increased in some diabetic tissues from diabetic animals although the linolenic content was normal, indicating less impairment in the desaturation of the 3 series of fatty acids. Diabetes suppressed all polyunsaturated acids in the whole animal, but the competition between 3 and 6 acids favored the excessive suppression of long-chain 6 acids and an increase in the proportion of 3 acids in lipids of vital tissues. These changes in fatty acid composition of the phospholipids may have significant effects on cellular functions and vasoregulatory control mechanisms in diabetes.

now the picture is coming more clear and it was just hidden all along.

I forgot to mention my hands and feet are numb when I wake up in the morning. And i get tingling sensations in my feet and hands once in awhile.

Also to carnosine on amino acid profile was elevated
Could this indicate that the need for it was increased due to glycination from the excessive glucose?

Do not worry about too much adrenaline (ephinepherine) last neurotransmitter profile I did should I had barely any LOL

Plus looking back on all my blood test for past 6 years I had low normal platelets, and whiteblood cell counts, low trigyclerides, low cholesterol (avg was 130) the WHOLE FUCKEN TIME, but drs never said a damn thing...

Amazing that low testoserone, hypothyroid,low magnesium, zinc, chromium, and B-vitamins all run low in diabetes. All which I do have. i am not making a diagnosis thats for drs to due, but I think the evidence strongly supports it given unexplained weight loss, low homocysteine level, lipi profile, low thyroid, low testosterone, and specific mineral defieicny. and elevated blood sugar can convert into Acetal aldehyde (deriviative of benezene) which metabolic test shows i was elevated. Not to bring up old news but justin had the same lipid profile i had in the beginning low HDL, elevated LDL, elevated iron levels indictative of POSSIBLE insulin resistance...Shame he was never tested. I also found out that diabetes suffer alot of neurological problems as well manly depression, schizophrenia. Right now need to focus at task on hand

Oh dr failed to tell me on liver detoxification challege with aspirin, caffine,
that my plasma sulfur liver was the lowest he had scene but nothing was ever done about it. This was a year ago..Later did I find out that sulfur was needed to make insulin and gluthione. So in theory a prolong elevated blood sugar causing hyperinsulemia could posisible cause a gluthione deficienc due to the insulin was unsing up the sulfur stores?

Considering hair analysis (if credible) i am a fast oxidizer and very insulin senstiive, but it did warn me about gluose intolerance and also male sexual dyfunction for future possible problems..

Just for shits and giggles I took my blood sugar before breakfast was 92
had breakfast 4 oz meat, 30 grams of carbs from a yam, and green veggies, about 10 grams fat ad then had found a product I had ingredients rALA, vandyl sulfate and other insulin mimicers. 2 hour later blood sugar was 103 vs 140 yesterday !!

Should your blood sugar be back to baseline before eating your next meal if your pancrease is working properly?


Posted by: Trouble

Speaking of blood and platlets...go read up on plasminogen activation and PAI-1, and follow that back to delta-9 desaturase.

Thats your sticking point for fat storage. The conversion produces key unsaturation in long chain saturated fats, and some of the converted fats bind to and activate receptors to drive fat storage.

Hardgainers have this issue and those with insulin insensitiity have the opposite effect...they store fats just a wee bit too easily.

>I found correlation that diabetic cystic fibrosis people have altered lipid profiles as well as protein, carb, fat deficiencies as well.

Yup. Altered long chain fatty acids - attached to phospholipid glycerol backbone to form PL membranes - make the interior of membranes different type of chemical environment, sometimes stiffer...and that changes the bendability...what we curvature (membranes are usually crenulated, crinkled, to get in as much surface area for reactions - most reactions occur in membrane environments) and also the lipophilicity. That lipid environment change alters protein structure-function, and also the ease of which fat soluble substrates swim along thru this tube like membrane environment.

Kinda cool, and while its been known awhile (this fatty acid specificity for membrane composition in key tissues), I don't think most biomed folks think about *why* you get certain fatty acids in certain tissues.

>Since LA -gla-dgla- prostaglandin 1 or AA and insulin slows the conversion of LA to GLA then would a deficiency causes it to speed up resulting in a deficeincy LA and elevated DGLA which my RBC lipid profile does show?

In the absence of LA and EFAs, AA can be lysed from cells..thats inflammation, and also red blood cell lysis. Cells undergo apoptosis, cell death.

Interesting. When I tried using DGLAs, I had an adverse reaction - not enough LA. Similar to you, insulin wasn't acting correctly. Good point.

Me, I make too much AA, which is great when insulin and glucose is under control, but bad otherwise. Its why I can pack on muscle mass so easy.

>It appears that fats are getting in to the cell, but are getting converted at such a fast rate and because of insulin dyfunction the DGLA is never getting converted to AA. So in theory that high carbohyrate diets cause in crease inflammation is because increased insulin would cause greater arachondic acid and more PGE2.

You got that one nailed perfect. Taint no theory about it, I can verify it anecdotally, thats a fact.

> the picture is coming more clear and it was just hidden all along.

Yup. Thats the way it goes with patterns of cause and effect. Gotta tease em out. Turn em around, look at em from different angles. Puzzle piece, HAN. You're looking to fit them together to form the big picture.

>I forgot to mention my hands and feet are numb when I wake up in the morning. And i get tingling sensations in my feet and hands once in awhile.

Lack of neurotransmitters. We're getting to that thru the liver...taurine again, seems to help.

>Also to carnosine on amino acid profile was elevated
Could this indicate that the need for it was increased due to glycination from the excessive glucose?

Glycation? Maybe. I think it has more to do with mito's inability to use carnosine.

>Do not worry about too much adrenaline (ephinepherine) last neurotransmitter profile I did should I had barely any LOL

Choline, boy. Your liver needs it bad. And once you're cranking it, you gotta control it, its excitatory. For that, you need the suppressors, taurine and GABA.

> looking back on all my blood test for past 6 years I had low normal platelets, and whiteblood cell counts, low trigyclerides, low cholesterol (avg was 130) the WHOLE FUCKEN TIME, but drs never said a damn thing...

HAN, you're an adult, and a smart one. Be wise as well. The reason you are in this fix is due to your own actions, not the doctors. They may have failed to act on the information, but you caused the problems thru chemical misadventure. Not gonna dwell on it, but when if you're finger pointing, nail all the responsible parties, eh?

> I think the evidence strongly supports it given unexplained weight loss, low homocysteine level, lipi profile, low thyroid, low testosterone, and specific mineral defieicny. and elevated blood sugar can convert into acetaldehyde (deriviative of benezene) which metabolic test shows i was elevated. Not to bring up old news

Yes indeed, it does begin to look like a picture of induced insulin deficiency.

>but justin had the same lipid profile i had in the beginning low HDL, elevated LDL, elevated iron levels indictative of POSSIBLE insulin resistance...Shame he was never tested.

Justin who? One of the members here??

> I also found out that diabetes suffer alot of neurological problems as well manly depression, schizophrenia. Right now need to focus at task on hand

Thats a problem with neurotransmitters in liver -if you block methionine and cysteine, you get low serotonin and problems with dopamine and in your case, ACh, acetylcholine.

> dr failed to tell me on liver detoxification challege with aspirin, caffine,
that my plasma sulfur liver was the lowest he had scene but nothing was ever done about it. This was a year ago..Later did I find out that sulfur was needed to make insulin and gluthione.

Transulfuration pathways - we've talking about it all along.

>So in theory a prolong elevated blood sugar causing hyperinsulemia could posisible cause a gluthione deficienc due to the insulin was unsing up the sulfur stores?

Nah, not as much zippo production of antioxidants. You don't make vitamin C, remember? Thats needed for a whole slew of reactions. You don't make glutathione none too well, either (methionone capture in a recycle step isn't working), so any you make is tied up trying to battle ROS and balance acids.

You got a pH problem, remember HAN?

>Considering hair analysis (if credible) i am a fast oxidizer and very insulin senstiive, but it did warn me about gluose intolerance and also male sexual dyfunction for future possible problems..

Don't use it unless you need conformation of other diagnostics.

>Just for shits and giggles I took my blood sugar before breakfast was 92
had breakfast 4 oz meat, 30 grams of carbs from a yam, and green veggies, about 10 grams fat ad then had found a product I had ingredients rALA, vandyl sulfate and other insulin mimicers. 2 hour later blood sugar was 103 vs 140 yesterday !!

There ya go, you got insulin functioning with a little help.

Watch the vanadyl it can make you hypo as well.

So you fed yourself slow release carbs and shuttled it into cells. How did you feel after your meal?

>Should your blood sugar be back to baseline before eating your next meal if your pancrease is working properly?

Yes sir, if insulin is clearing it out, it should come back down, so should insulin, if its making it into cells (which you should be able to tell from blood glucose measurements 30, 1, 2 and 3 hours after eating (right up to your next meal).

Now, get your protein metabolism going and lets start to slow down proteolysis. Start using BCAAs in water, between meals. No CEE yet, just magnesium and taurine. Need to get the pH / antioxidants resolved. You are taking vitamin C right??


Another good post.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

No fucking shit RBC lipids showed elevated palmtic and also steric was off the fucken charts high
16:0 (palmitic) delta 9 desaturase> 16:1w7*** Palmitoleic delta 6 desaturase> 16:2w7** elongase
18:0 (stearic) delta 9 desaturase> Oleic acid (18:1w9 ***) delta 6 desaturase> 18:2w9** elongase

According to dietary interventions is to reduce the saturated fat and add niacin doe delta 9 saturase but it said that high steric acid causes high triglycerides, but I have just the oppossite. is it possbile that your body could endogenously make then from another source ? Could a coenzyme A deficeincy slow this enzyme down due to the periioxosmal profiltetation problem or better yet insulin deficeincy ?!!!

FOUND IT INSULIN ACTIVATES THE DELTA 9 SATURASE AND CONVERTS STEARIC ACID TO OLEIC ACID !!

). In summary, 1) the activities of enterocyte microsomal membrane delta-5, delta-6 and delta-9-desaturases are independently influenced by dietary fatty acids or cholesterol, or by diabetes; 2) changes in dietary fatty acids, cholesterol and diabetes are associated with alterations in the fatty acyl constituents of brush border membrane phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylethanolamine, but these fatty acyl changes are not explained on the basis of variations in the activities of the microsomal desaturases. Thus, the intestinal brush border membrane and the enterocyte microsomal desaturases are capable of adapting in response to changes in dietary lipids or diabetes, but the two alterations are not necessarily causally interrelated.




i am taking vitamin C ester C due to preventing more acidicity at 500 mgs 5-6 times a day. I took 1000 mgs of vitamin C ester and blood sugar went through the roof. There is that insulin again needed to transport C in to the cell.

Yes ph is fucked up urine and salvia or pure acid, but during day time they are fine. My problem is i have trouble reducing acids when I sleep. My blood test did show elevated anion gap HINT INT slight metabolic acidosis prehapes

Since my insulin is not working efficently could the nutrient be backing up in the blood and enter the kreb cycle but at a reduced amount then 100%.

Is lectithan a good source of choline or will it add more insult to injury.
I can pretty much guarantee my acetylcholine is low due concidering on it is a parasympathetic neurotransmitters which I could definitely use. Since its the parasympathetic system that does seem to be out of balances and is responsible for releasing insulin, and gastric secretions, gut molity.

Every since eating all those eggs lady me had me eating my tongue starting to turn white again. Now knowing that saturated fats cause inflammation and weaken immune system this explains why. So instead of shoveling 8 whole eggs a day to raise AA. It would have been more productive to correct the under lying deficeincy by insulin management. This could have been successful in possible helping issues at different levels. It not candida either i tested negative in candidisphere test, metabolic testing blood antibodies, stool sample as well..

You mentioned about BCAAS between meals, like 1/2 tsp is good 2500 mgs per serving good?

This explains blood sugar nicely
by the way my lipid perioxidation was off the charts in liver function test.

How could such disturbances in glucose/insulin metabolism lead to many chronic disorders associated with aging? In aging, similar to diabetes, the elevation in circulating glucose and other reducing sugars secondary to age-induced insulin resistance can react nonenzymatically with proteins and nucleic acids to form products that affect function and diminish tissue elasticity. Also, perturbations in glucose/insulin metabolism are associated with enhanced lipid peroxidation secondary to greater free radical formation. Free radicals of oxygen are important known causes of tissue damage and have been associated with many aspects of aging including inflammatory diseases, cataracts, diabetes, and cardiovascular diseases. Augmented free radical formation and lipid peroxidation are not uncommon in diabetes mellitus, commonly associated with "premature aging". Ingestion of sugars, fats, and sodium have been linked to decreased insulin sensitivity, while caloric restriction, exercise, ingestion of chromium, vanadium, soluble fibers, magnesium, and certain antioxidants are associated with greater insulin sensitivity. Thus, manipulation of diet by influencing the glucose/insulin system may favorably affect life span and reduce the incidence of chronic disorders associated with aging.


Posted by: Trouble

>FOUND IT INSULIN ACTIVATES THE DELTA 9 SATURASE AND CONVERTS STEARIC ACID TO OLEIC ACID !! In summary, 1) the activities of enterocyte microsomal membrane delta-5, delta-6 and delta-9-desaturases are independently influenced by dietary fatty acids or cholesterol, or by diabetes; 2) changes in dietary fatty acids, cholesterol and diabetes are associated with alterations in the fatty acyl constituents of brush border membrane phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylethanolamine, but these fatty acyl changes are not explained on the basis of variations in the activities of the microsomal desaturases....

And you probably have both screwed up. Isn't coconut oil enriched in stearic and acids? Can't remember, trivia. Anyway, like I said, without the right desaturases, you won't store fat.

Thats why you need the proper combination of both PUFA and MUFAs (middle chain length unsatuated fatty acids. And that, you obtain from olive oil.

>i am taking vitamin C ester C due to preventing more acidicity at 500 mgs 5-6 times a day. I took 1000 mgs of vitamin C ester and blood sugar went through the roof. There is that insulin again needed to transport C in to the cell.

Small amounts then, you'er even more sensitive than I presumed.

Yes ph is fucked up urine and salvia or pure acid, but during day time they are fine. My problem is i have trouble reducing acids when I sleep. My blood test did show elevated anion gap HINT INT slight metabolic acidosis prehapes

>Since my insulin is not working efficently could the nutrient be backing up in the blood and enter the kreb cycle but at a reduced amount then 100%.

Yes, and thats why you should guardedly be trying acetate and citrate, along with the BCAAs, to push start TCA and also feed energy for protein synthesis.

>Is lectithan a good source of choline or will it add more insult to injury.

Choline is cheap, buy it in bulk. Add lethicin later.

>I can pretty much guarantee my acetylcholine is low due concidering on it is a parasympathetic neurotransmitters which I could definitely use. Since its the parasympathetic system that does seem to be out of balances and is responsible for releasing insulin, and gastric secretions, gut molity.

PI is screwed up, and we're going to use that to help drive adrenal recovery, remember? Its needed for muscle cell growth, triggers AR as well, when you have the right training stimulus.

>Every since eating all those eggs lady me had me eating my tongue starting to turn white again. Now knowing that saturated fats cause inflammation and weaken immune system this explains why. So instead of shoveling 8 whole eggs a day to raise AA. It would have been more productive to correct the under lying deficeincy by insulin management. This could have been successful in possible helping issues at different levels. It not candida either i tested negative in candidisphere test, metabolic testing blood antibodies, stool sample as well..

Correcto mundo. I told you it wasn't candida. Sure a lot of people buy into that explanation though.

>You mentioned about BCAAS between meals, like 1/2 tsp is good 2500 mgs per serving good?

Hard to get into solution - use a drink blender (cup sized one). Sip it.

You feeling more confident of where we are going now? I'd like you to tell your story, eventually, in another forum, as an example, if you please. You're not the first to go down this road, and you won't be the last. May help other bbers who have run into similar issues figure their way out of tough spot.

First though, we need to see your test results for insulin sufficiency.

Another good post.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Very confident i kept telling drs about glucose abnormalities, thyroid and other factors on blood test, but since i was in norma range they would not do a damn thing and ignored it
Yes you may use my thread as a reference if it an help some one else from going through bullshit I have use it

i think you are right about the choline
Hepatic steatosis and fat malabsorption are common in CF. Choline deficiency results in decreased phosphatidylcholine synthesis (through the cytidine diphosphocholine-choline pathway) and in hepatic steatosis, and it also results in increased synthesis of phosphatidylcholine (from phosphatidylethanolamine using methyl groups from S-adenosylmethionine

ok if there are no triglycerides, cholesterol, lipids in the blood is it possible that they are being stored and not released from the liver due to lack of choline >

Its a good methydonor which I can use.

Here is a possible reason why homocysteine is not getting mylenated back to the methionne, In the liver, but not in peripheral tissues, remethylation of homocysteine to methionine by MS is regulated by dietary intake of methionine. High levels of hepatic AdoMet allosterically inhibit MTHFR and the formation of 5-Me-THF and stimulate cystathionine β-synthase (CBS). CBS catalyzes the committing step in the transulfuration pathway in which homocysteine is converted to cysteine.

The onl thing I can find is that aTP can lower the AdoMet which is blocking the MS pathway, but look what I found

and so the insulin story goes LOL
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

A diabetic state also increased the activity of the folate-independent homocysteine remethylation enzyme betaine-homocysteine S-methyltransferase, whereas the activity of the folate-dependent enzyme methionine synthase was diminished 52%. In contrast, RA treatment attenuated the streptozotocin-mediated increase in betaine-homocysteine S-methyltransferase, whereas methionine synthase activity remained diminished

And so this defect in the MS pathway would explain why the elevated serum b-12 and folic acid were never broken down and used or use yet could no enter the cell because of insulin dyfunction !!!

Now question is how to reduce the AdoMeT so it can be diverted to the MS pathway. Load up on methycobalonin to overide it or correct the insuline dysfunction..Hard choice Survey says ..Correct the insulin problem...Here we been chasing this so called mercury theory,,,

Diabetes, which can associate with increased protein degradation, also associates with decreased BCOD kinase activity. Since insulin promotes the activity of the BCOD kinase, it would follow that its lack, as in diabetes, would lead to (decreased activity of the kinase and) increased protein degradation.

So is it safe to hypothsize that due to numerous varaibles I self induced a state of insulin resistace that was not identified and over time this lead in to a insulin deficeincy as well as starvation from not having the glucose entering the cells and resulted in body starvation which altered thyroid function and hypothalamus as well. So if the mitocindrion are just sluggish then feeding them the proper intermediataires and then correcting the insulin deficeincy would allow the nutrient to enter into the kreb cycle so they could be fully utlized. Does this sound feasible explanation to get back to health, plus clearing out the liver and lower renegade fats, increasing methylation

Hypothyroid homocysteie
Summary. We investigated the influence of hypothyroidism on homocysteine metabolism in rats, focusing on a hypothetical deficient synthesis of FAD by riboflavin kinases. Animals were allocated in control group (n=7), thyroidectomized rats (n=6), rats with diet deficient in vitamin B2, B9, B12, choline and methionine (n=7), thyroidectomized rats with deficient diet (n=9). Homocysteine was decreased in operated rats

The hypoventialiation is coming from reaction to gabba at 500 mgs..
There are few if any side effects of GABA. Some users have experienced some mild tingling sensations around the face and neck area after supplementing GABA. Some users also notice a brief and milk change in heart rate or breathing patterns. Does this mean i am allergic to it ?

No gaba no gh LOL extra gh output could be helpful you think ? LOL


Posted by: Trouble

>i think you are right about the choline

Warning, warning: do not second guess me here.

We are ALSO using choline for a different purpose, one almost never used.
Clever chemistry for gene regulation. The fact that you have choline def in the liver underscores its need. Gee, think they're connected issues??

>ok if there are no triglycerides, cholesterol, lipids in the blood is it possible that they are being stored and not released from the liver due to lack of choline

*sigh* We HAD this conversation already, I told you were storing bile acids.

No need to revisit this stuff, HAN.

>Here is a possible reason why homocysteine is not getting mylenated back to the methionne, In the liver, but not in peripheral tissues, remethylation of homocysteine to methionine by MS is regulated by dietary intake of methionine.

Thats correct, which is why glutathione precursors in whey are important, as is NAC and sam-e.

The onyl thing I can find is that ATP can lower the AdoMet which is blocking the MS pathway, but look what I found

--> make ATP using TCA intermediates, feed the pathway with TMG..betaine.

And so this defect in the MS pathway would explain why the elevated serum b-12 and folic acid were never broken down and used or use yet could no enter the cell because of insulin dyfunction !!!

>Correct the insulin problem...Here we been chasing this so called mercury theory,,,

I told you that I didnt think you had a mercury problem, still don't.

>So is it safe to hypothsize that due to numerous varaibles I self induced a state of insulin resistace that was not identified and over time this lead in to a insulin deficeincy as well as starvation from not having the glucose entering the cells and resulted in body starvation which altered thyroid function and hypothalamus as well. So if the mitocindrion are just sluggish then feeding them the proper intermediataires and then correcting the insulin deficeincy would allow the nutrient to enter into the kreb cycle so they could be fully utlized. Does this sound feasible explanation to get back to health, plus clearing out the liver and lower renegade fats, increasing methylation

Plus directly feeding various pathways to get enzymes induced and feeding the start of the pathways to get genes induced. Plus use of a few smart nuclear receptor agonists.

>The hypoventialiation is coming from reaction to gabba at 500 mgs..
Some users also notice a brief and milk change in heart rate or breathing patterns. Does this mean i am allergic to it ?

No, merely sensitive to it because all you make is locked up in glutamine, and that goes to brain..and that is not good, HAN, not good at all. We will get GABA going again and keep what you make from being converted to NMDA, in spinal column and parts of the brain where it is not being regulated properly, out of balance with GABA and with taurine.

Taurine is one of the keys, along with glutathione.

>No gaba no gh LOL extra gh output could be helpful you think ? LOL

Yes sir, thats why its on your supplements to get list, eh?

Such fun. Now why can you understand me so easily and yet other whine about me being so difficult to understand?

*shrug* What is your background education and training, HAN?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Background is exercise science,
Training is self survival. When sick I started researching phyisiology of autism, cancer, AIDS, in a person can understand what is going on bioliolgoically in these cases they can just about understand any thing.

Could large dosages of ALA with caffine, ephederine, low carbs, ALCAR, tyrosine say over a 12 weeks period with large amounts of protein possible put you into a insulin resistant state or increase your chances ?

What I meant about choine was that with out you can not make PC or even acteylcholine which I am in much need of due to sympathetic sysem over load (assuming) and my cell membranes will not heal with out choline (major core problem), but taurine taking should help with that as well.

I was just curious does building up of the NDMA some how effect cholingeric receptors affecting acteylcholine production and binding?
I found this but did not understand how nmda ties in with cholinegeric binding. Does it block it some how ?
http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...2/2/185?ck=nck

and
What I mean by 'metabolic machinery' is that a lack of oxygen, for example, in ischemia, can deplete a cell of ATP. Without ATP, a neuron cannot maintain a voltage difference across the membrane. Without a resting membrane potential, the NMDA channel would be constantly open and allowing for unregulated calcium influx. Calcium is a tricky molecule in that it can initiate a plethora of biochemical pathways. Consequently, its homeostatic balance is necessary to generate the appropriate cellular responses.

is it my understanding tht too much calcium inside the cell causes it to calcify and die (aptosis) ?

I been taking free form amino acids for longest time even before the metabolic testing and then still have not made a change in the urine test. Ammonia was the only thing that was in "normal" range on the urine test and i think if i was on a higher protein diet the I would have been in trouble. MY kidney enyzme on metaboic pannel are actually on the low end of normal meaning protein deficeincy (go figure). Now since everything seems to be digesting and into the blood what is it doing once in there if it is not getting metabolized ? And metabolic testing showed that glyclosis was at a dead halt pretty much as well as protein metabolites, fatty acid metaboites. Could this bottle necking of the krebs cycle so to speak be affecting the ph balance due to the build up of acids in the blood. (probably explained it already)

HERE IS THE answer to above remark
To overcome the lack of glucose, the body begins breaking down protein stores, leading to a negative nitrogen balance. In the continued absolute absence or ineffectiveness of insulin, fat stores are mobilized into free fatty acids (FFAs). In the liver excess amounts of fatty acids cannot enter into the Krebs cycle and instead condense into acetoacetic acid and beta hydroxybutyrate, called ketone bodies, which are acidic. To buffer these acids, the body excretes acidic urine and buffers the blood acidity with bicarbonate and buffer bases reserves. However, continued production and buffering of ketones causes a drop in plasma pH, acidosis, and eventually death if left untreated



urnie test showed
high normal taurine,serine, cystathionine,sarcosine , phosphoserine,
urea cycle is sluggish
conclusion maldigestion, absorption - malabsorption in liver not transporting, not from digestion.
nitrogen insufficeny - No shit
elevated need for b-12, folic acid - MS pathway defect and overload of CBS due to insulin defect.

AS you mentioined just above the glutemine is being locked up and being converted to glutemate and the glutemate is not being converted to the gabba and resulting in excitory activity in the brain NMDA

How can we protect from this if we can not get nutrients to cell to be processed without the insulin?
Time- and dose-dependent neuroprotection against NMDA toxicity by vitamin B2, B9 and B12.

Creatine in urine was not even detected, there is the insulin dyfunction again. Since insulin drive creatine into the cell. Its been pulling it from my muscle to keep homostatis in the blood. Creatine at this time would be useless since I can not enter the cell do you think?

Since i felt good with 30 grams slow releseing carbs should I bump it up to see how I feel with like 50 grams for breakfast with vanadyl?..

if one has hyperglycemia this inhibits NO2 production which then inhibits IGF-1 levels and Igf-1 stimulate MS pathway. So it may be possible that insulin secretions may be indirectly responsible of inducing MS pathway due to the increase of NO2 to IGF-1. My urine also should low dopamine levels as well and tyrosine.

http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v9/...B797F9C69B6D0E

Other factors known to lower IGF-1 (Ref 2, 3,6) levels include oral estrogen, protein calorie malnutrition, insulin deficiency, liver failure, hypothyroidism, pregnancy, glucocorticoid therapy, renal failure and acute catabolic stress (eg, surgery, trauma, hip fractures and infectious diseases). All of these factors are thought to stress the liver and interfere with IGF-1 production.

"Improved outcomes from insulin administration in critically ill people may be due to favorable alterations in myocardial and skeletal muscle metabolism, oxidative glycolisis, and increased nitric oxide production that results in arterial vasodilatation"


Conclusively it appears that Hypothalamus dyfunction ( hypothyroid, iinsulin insuffiency, liver) are easily the culprits in the MS pathway mystery .

So easy to say I have a sublcimical fatty liver some what?

I think the build up of alot of the fats in RBC namely the dha, epa are due because they are not getting meaboized due to hypometabolism of the kreb cycle or possiblr carnitine deficiency to transport them in. Since I am showing the characteristics of EFA deficeincy..

Come to think about it may be the body lowered the thyroid as a protective measure from eating it self up due to cellular stavation from lack of glucose from insulin resistance at first and now deficiency And by focusing on thyroid and getting that running would be counter productive because you have more need for substrates and if they can not get glucose in the firat place its only going to go after the muscle next. So the insulin insufficency which is highly supported by valid data needs to be addressed first and then
hypothalamus stress will be reduced as well and body can go back to normal.
Does this sound plausible explaination?

This showed show really whats going on in the celll next friday getting white blood cell vitamin , antiixdents (ALA,gluthione, sulfate) so it showed give a more precise picture of what is happening at cellular level..

Hyperglycemia causes protein oxidation (protein not being able to be ulitized for protein synthesis) YIPPE pieces are starting to fit into the puzzle
Thus, insulin deficiency will lead to increased catabolism of protein

hyperglycemia increases muscle catabolism despite an endogenous insulin, which then breaks down muscle to produce acids which over load systems clogging them up .

ITS LACK OF INSULIN I TOOK A PILL OF GLIPSERIDE - insulin and I felt a nice rush of glcose and muscle sweeledd and got vascular...

i think self induced hyperglycemia was hidden for several years leading into inuslin resistance and this time it just it was too much for my body to handle and it took foot and caused hypothalamus dyfunctions, but now I feel so good. No wonder my brain was fucked up it was not getting any glucose and with out insulin tyrptophan can not be taken in either to the brain. Would explain my low serotonin levels yes? Again this is all speculation untill insulin test comes back or Hemoglobin glycination test. Blood sugar imbalance I think were one of the major issues that started this chain reaction..

The cause of constpation is from the hyperglycemia casuing dehydration verified by elevated serum albumin and also elevated anion gap. Another reason is to du lack of energy from the glucose not entering the cell to drive the mechanism AKA my colon to make it move..


Posted by: Trouble

>Background is exercise science
Degrees. minors, please.

> When sick I started researching phyisiology of autism, cancer

Interesting choice in autism. There is a reason for you choice of this malady. Why autism, HAN?

I think we will now reach into your hardwiring, and it's history for the next clues. Why is your glutamate chemistry is brain skewed? From this next chapter in our long running discussion, comes the behavioral corrections hat must occur for you to get well again.

>Could large dosages of ALA with caffine, ephederine, low carbs, ALCAR, tyrosine say over a 12 weeks period with large amounts of protein possible put you into a insulin resistant state or increase your chances ?

Ceffeine and ephedrine feed the beta-adrenergic release of NE and from it, ACTH, this mediated by glutamate. Carnitine must have its redox couple needs met to be controlled, else it is a power oxidant. Excess cortisol, from NE hyperstimulation, leads to elevated ROS, and that is worsened by carnitine when one is low on antioxidants, eh?

Tyrosine is a potent cell regulator, and yes, its binding is part of the complex picture of cell life regulation, in cell proliferation and apoptosis (cell death).

The link you inquire about here, is that of ACTH and cortisol action that turns insulin on and off from the brain on the top end, and glucogenic amino acids, highly enriced in WPI, inducing insulin spiking, at the organ end.

A dangerous coupled effect, HAN, for the molecularly misbegotten.

>I was just curious does building up of the NDMA some how effect cholingeric receptors affecting acteylcholine production and binding? I found this but did not understand how nmda ties in with cholinegeric binding. Does it block it some how ?

Link didn't work. NMDA is a lot like GABA, its a modulator of secretory function in various organs, and has neurotransmitter functions of its own in brain. Its part of a coupled system of agonist/antagonist = push/pull action.

>What I mean by 'metabolic machinery' is that a lack of oxygen,

Now you get to an important crux of your problem. Oxygen is needed for respiration, to make ATP. Its can get sucked up into other reactions, and it can be reduced in gas pressure (blood gas volume) by autonomic reflexes.

Driven by glutamate and taurine, and taurine mitigates for low oxygen (hypoxic) damage in brain, same as it does for hyperosmotic states.

Too much ion charge, not enough water being shuffled in and out of cells - guess whohelps regulates that?

Insulin.

>Without a resting membrane potential, the NMDA channel would be constantly open and allowing for unregulated calcium influx. Calcium is a tricky molecule in that it can initiate a plethora of biochemical pathways. Consequently, its homeostatic balance is necessary to generate the appropriate cellular responses.

Correcto mundo. And who helps that calcium flux work like it should, so that it doesn't build up tonus (high calcium that can't efflux from organelles like SR)??

Magnesium. Magnesium is a cofactor for Na/K ATPase driven calcium pump (transmembrane proteins that shuttles Ca in and out of cells).

What else does it regulate at the same time? (coupled actions)??

Cellular pH.

See my posts in the thread discussion on pH regulation (lactic acid) in muscle. You'll see what I mean.

Whats the appropriate buffers?

Citrate and phosphate. (thats should be lightbulb time for you)

> it my understanding tht too much calcium inside the cell causes it to calcify and die (aptosis) ?

Its not that simple, but yeah, its at the base of problems like muscle cramping.

Thats why the fix is more likley to be magnesium, than either calcium (duh) or potassium (bananas) for muscle cramps.

Gots to know you chemistry, in order not to be led astray by some of these anecdotate fixes.

I>been taking free form amino acids for longest time even before the metabolic testing and then still have not made a change in the urine test. Ammonia was the only thing that was in "normal" range on the urine test and i think if i was on a higher protein diet the I would have been in trouble. MY kidney enyzme on metaboic pannel are actually on the low end of normal meaning protein deficeincy (go figure).

Aminos you should be taking: lysine, panthothetic acid. B2.

Oh yes, your comments are right on here. You could have been in a world of hurt for kidney tubule disease. Lucky.

>Could this bottle necking of the krebs cycle so to speak be affecting the ph balance due to the build up of acids in the blood. (probably explained it already)

Not only pH, but as I said, water balance. Yes, you can't form glycogen in liver and muscle when osmotic load is too high in the the cytosol.

> In the continued absolute absence or ineffectiveness of insulin, fat stores are mobilized into free fatty acids (FFAs). In the liver excess amounts of fatty acids cannot enter into the Krebs cycle and instead condense into acetoacetic acid and beta hydroxybutyrate, called ketone bodies,

Oh gee, the magic words. The very enzyme I spent years working on. You are singing to the choir here, makes me smile.

You see, this is the point for using HMB. See? I get these fuckchop detractors who have said, "she doesn't know what she is talking about when she tells them to take HMB, it doesn't do shit!"

Oh, contraire. It does this expediting of energy, and then some. Its a key signalling agent for TCA and for translocation of free fatty acids into mito, as well as acting like leucine, in the signalling of protein synthesis.

Mind in my madness, there is.

>AS you mentioined just above the glutemine is being locked up and being converted to glutemate and the glutemate is not being converted to the gabba and resulting in excitory activity in the brain NMDA

Taurine, babe. And avoidance of glutamine metabolic fuckups in liver, by making sure that GABA is being made. That requires methylation, and that means the transulfration station bottlenecks must be addressed.

What comes around, goes around.

>How can we protect from this if we can not get nutrients to cell to be processed without the insulin?
Time- and dose-dependent neuroprotection against NMDA toxicity by vitamin B2, B9 and B12.

More like B6, B12, B1 and 2,. zinc, folate, and vitamin C. In liver.

Creatine in urine was not even detected, there is the insulin dyfunction again.

Yes and no. Creatine doesn't work without GSH. Simple. Use NAC and it will. Otherwise, you get that pH (acidification) effect that shuts it down.

I found and wrote about a MOST elegant description of this from citations I found buried...dating from 2001-2004. God, its glorious old tyme biochemsitry, the way we used to do it...

Anyway, the review article described in terms of the Nernst equations, the role of pH control of creatine metabolism.

I have mentioned several times, but not gone again into the chemistry. Why? It would fly over the heads of 99% of the readers in any forum.

Better just to mention it the bottom line, use the NAC to offset pH drift during respiration that will shut down creatine action.


>Since i felt good with 30 grams slow releseing carbs should I bump it up to see how I feel with like 50 grams for breakfast with vanadyl?..

KRALA is what you want. No sir, slow as she goes, gots to get other cellular action on line first. But yeah, you are going to be using a high load protein approach, once we get insulin going again, to pack muscle on you, bring strength back up.

You'll be visiting another forum to read up on this idea, and for the training you need to go with it.

>if one has hyperglycemia this inhibits NO2 production

It fucks up insulin action on endothelial/vascular NOS, and that has its own repercussions, as does the lack of ROS regulation at ITS CORE - you understrand, a lack of EFAs or ascorbate...of GSH.


>Other factors known to lower IGF-1:
protein calorie malnutrition check
insulin deficiency check
liver issues check
hypothyroidism check
glucocorticoid supression check
acute catabolic stress

>All of these factors are thought to stress the liver and interfere with IGF-1 production.

And hence, the lack of protein synthesis.

Your links are working, HAN,. but no matter, I was able to answer it.

>Conclusively it appears that Hypothalamus dyfunction ( hypothyroid, iinsulin insuffiency, liver) are easily the culprits in the MS pathway mystery .

Yes...but at its core, stress.

Our discussion now, must take a more serious turn, for we need to drill down into sensitive, underlying causatives.

For that you must loop back, and delve into the autism angle.

Read up on it, and do a search on the terms autism and glutamate excitotoxicity. Report back...but before you do so, you will also please read up on a form of high functioning autism.. Aspergers and then tell me what it means to you.

You are unusually good at pattern recognition, the gift of the natural diagnositian (when you are not misdirected by side trips into lala-land notions). Why?

> easy to say I have a sublcimical fatty liver some what?

Nonalcoholic fatty liver. I menionted it back at the beginning of this lengthy dialog, eh?

>I think the build up of alot of the fats in RBC namely the dha, epa are due because they are not getting meaboized due to hypometabolism of the kreb cycle or possiblr carnitine deficiency to transport them in. Since I am showing the characteristics of EFA deficeincy..

A little simplistic, but yes indeed. A valid connection.

> So the insulin insufficency which is highly supported by valid data needs to be addressed first and then hypothalamus stress will be reduced as well and body can go back to normal. Does this sound plausible explaination?

Yes and no. Like I said, we next go into the stress effects and its complex chemistry.

And for that, we need your history, childhood. But first you do the reading I asked for, and then we have this chat.

It is a familiar road we walk down. This is a chronic stress situation which MUST be addressed for positive results to be lasting.

Most illuminating. A classic story.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

background is kinseiology minor nutrition, dabbled in psychology
John berardi AKA DR now were traning partners for a few years and we were way a head of our time.
through researching autism i looked at patterns and studied neurochemistry of the brain from biological pathways from how food gets digested to enyzmatic reactions how it transfer across the intestinal lining by amino acid carriers on the intestinal wall which where driven by atp. To the reactions of specific amino acids intergreted with nutrients to form neurotransmitters. Then I looked at how once in the blood how does it get into the cell (this was my most major obstacle to convince drs that its not at the blood level but at the tissue level transfers were not taking place). I kept telling drs if you do not provide the proper substrates off course your brain is not going to be balanced properly. It was funny as shit I went to see shrink to appease the drs and when I started to explain the situation he was like HMMM you have a point. Shrink almost pissed his pants when he started to ask me speciific questions about certain things. I said "do you take me for a fool " he said what are you talking about. I told him no I am not schizophrenic or bipolar. i recognized the sequence of questions he was asking to determine diagnosis. It was funny I kind of turned the topic around on him and put him on the spot and dummy never even knew it. Iq never had tested but my one freind is 175 and she can only talk to certain peope and She came out to me on time and ask me if I had an extremly High IQ I never had it tested, but I can make the most complicated problems seem the easiest, but have hardest time figuring out the most simple things. I am not a test taker because my mind is light years ahead of the simplictic problem and tend to over think things too much. Problems with my relationships I would start to analyse everything an it would drive them nuts, but in the end my hypothesis was usualy correct based upon the supporting facts. When there is a problem I do not look at one dimesional but rather from all possible angles and try to recongize a speciic pattern whether it be a behavioral or analytical and then I would break it down piece by piece. I started this behavior when working at clubs I would people watch all night long and people that were going to be trouble would fall into specific pattern or show certain facial expressions and before the problem esculated I would identify it and act according. Thats what I tried to do with OTB tried to find the metabolic blockers and identified we had same patterns even on metabolic testing same liver pathways were not functioning properly, but his psychological issues were becoming to great to reason and was makiing him more aggitated. i knew the general idea, but did not have the bavk ground to fully understand what was happening at the molecular level now I do..

one can suspect with out insulin I am probably having a cellular potassium deficeincy since high insulin drive potassium into the cell and low would cause a deficeincy ..dOes this make sense since people with second stage adrenal faitgue have high insulin levels usually high intracellular potassium amd low sodium levels. You mentioned you had this before..

The ability of insulin to stimulate, and glucagon to inhibit, HMG-CoA reductase activity is consistent with the effects of these hormones on other metabolic pathways. The basic function of these two hormones is to control the availability and delivery of energy to all cells of the body.

Citrate and phosphate. (thats should be lightbulb time for you)
Yes if I remember right phosphates are used to help thyroid from decreasing t-3
could not find the link
J Physiol Pharmacol. 1996 Jun;47(2):373-83. Phosphate supplementation prevents a decrease of triiodothyronine and increases resting metabolic rate during low energy diet. Nazar K, Kaciuba-Uscilko H, Szczepanik J, Zemba AW, Kruk B, Chwalbinska-Moneta J, Titow-Stupnicka E, Bicz B, Krotkiewski M.

But here is the thing I have all this b-6 built up in my blood ?
One hypothesis is that pyri-doxine toxicity is caused by exceeding the liver’s ability to phosphorylate pyridoxine to P5P, yieldinghigh serum levels of pyridoxine which may be directly neurotoxic or may compete with P5P for bind-ing sites, resulting in a relative deficiency. i have functioinal b-6 defciency why glutemate is not converting back to gaba posible because the enzyme is b-6 driven. Sound feasible


So as we can once again see that insulin stilulates HMG-CoA reductase which increase cholesterol synthesis. Now if I remember right stain drugs reduces this enzyme and if this enzyme is reduced it could cause a coenzyme q 10 deficeincy?

Could the insulin dyfunction be acting like a statin drug?
Statins could initiate and/or accelerate malignant growth by a) blocking the production of Coenzyme Q10, which has been shown to have anti-cancer effects; b) stimulating the growth of new blood vessels that malignancies require to promote their propagation; c) decreasing the cytotoxicity of natural killer cells; d) blocking the production of squalene, an intermediate cholesterol metabolite with anti-cancer activities in animal studies and currently used as adjunctive therapy in treating cancer; e) reducing the production of DHEA, which has been shown to have anticancer and immune stimulating effects in experimental studies."...

What about epson salt foot baths to increase sulfate stores. i was taking MSM but I researched and people (autistic) with underfunctioning sulfruation pathways can not convert to sulfate. And my plasms sulfate levels are in the shitter. No sulfate no insulin and low gluthione. looking back on my tests all the subtrates to formi nsulin are depleted.

i see your reasoning for lysine, lysine is needed to make carnitine and also act as an anchor for P5P which i am low in ...hmmm
b2 converts to FAD which is needed in the TCA cycle, and will also lower VLCFA's as well, as well as lower sarcosine
B-5 drives coenzyme A but for some reason I seem to think i have an over production of coenzyme A that is being resistant to enter. B-5 is the only vitamin that is shown as being over ultized in the metabolic testing. Could this becaue of underactive adrenals? i did read some where that excessive coenyzme A can clogg the TCA cycle but I forget how. may be it causes an in balance in NADH/ NADPH. I know if this ratio is skewed dyfunction happens, but not sure what?


i really did not have any problems untll I started to up my sugar intake after the contest this is when I experinced the brunt of the problems. I continued after working out to consume up to 100 -125 grams of dextrose 4-5 days a week After sipping on the drink I would start sweating perfusely and even a few times a got light head driving home and when I go home I would goto sleep for about 30 minutes and then wake up feeling refreshed, but in puddle of sweat. Shit after prejuding I had a baked potatoe with my meal and starting sweating like never before and then passed out in the car after dinner for an hour and then I was fine. So could a radical change from a super low sugar diet to a sudden sugar rush have triggered a biological stress response and excellerated the insulin imbalance and the wheels were set in motion and there was no way to stop them. To add more insult from injury figuring I had candida i went on a high fat ketogenic diet (cocconut oil) which only added to more insulin resistace and when I got my first blood test my cholesterol was 100, hdl where 40 vs 60 an LDL where 40 points higher then usual, triglycerides were in normal range, but dr said i was fine and also t-3 were at low total pole and t-4 where in upper range. So does this help to start to paint the picture.

This should shed some light of things
Plus with in that amount of time 1 weeks time before the shit hit the fan my with excessive sugar intake from holiday foods, holidays lonely brother got diagnosed MS, freind died in car accdent, I was exposed to paint at work it was affecting my job performance as well I would come home light headed, and dizzy in a daze, bull shit from customers at work , plus training like a made man for photo shoot in ca = metabolic stress u think?


DAMN LIGHT BULB JUST CAME ON NOW I SEE YOU METHOD TO YOUR MADNESS

you are preparing the mitochondrion by preparing them with proper intermediatries and also at same time supplying nutrients to build up the antioidents (gluthione, SOD,ect)and clear the liver pathways to rebuild the neurotransmitters. Once these are built up and mitochomdrion are ready you are going to supply them with the fuels (AA, carbs, fats) by manipulating the insulin with cAMP. I have an idea once insulin levels are stabilzed adrenals will return because PGE2 AA production would be increased from the rise of insulin and then ANABOLIC state will be introduced once again and also testosterone should rise, as well thyroid due to the fact that it will be taken out of starvation mood and balacing of adrenals. (this is in a nut shell of course)

I was thinking about going back to nursing school, but what i have goes against what medical professions beleive in and it would be conflict I am sure.

I have all this understanding of chemistry, but what job could I do where I can put it to use helping people and make a living off of it?

i chose autism based upon the fact that the drs were so set on mercury poisoing from all the tuna fish I had consummed over the years and autism parellels alot of things I have been expereincing as well as explains what can go wrong in each biological system at a cellular level.

This is what i believe the future of medicine should be
Find out what nutrients the body requires through cellular testing (whole blood, RBC, metabolic testing) if they are low find out where the metaboic block is (stress digestion, mitochondrion dysfunction, toxins,ect). We could prevent alot of health problem if the GOV't would set new RDA guidelines to higher standards of certain vitamins and design a test to find out what nutrients you are deficienct in and have a company design a supplment based on your testing once ever 3-4 months. Wish ful thinking I know !!


Posted by: Trouble

HAN, lets try another hint.

We want to go further back in the pathogenesis of this issue of yours and OTBs as well.

Please do a Google search on glutamate and autism.

Then read what you can on it, report back here.

Time to open up some eyes. Then we'll talk some more on the driver for glutamate excitotoxicity in chronic stress. This is really a continuum related disorders, predicated of a central glutmate regulation issue.

On one end the related bipolar and depression neurological diorders, then autistics, then high functioning autistics, then PTSDs, and then the general population, with somatype issues (ecto and endomorphic deviation from standard mesomorphic type) depression, intestinal disorders, hormonal issues, all driven by anxiety and chronic stress loading - with occasional acute episodes that keep natural correction mechanisms from de-silencing genes in the forebrain, hypothalamus, pituitary, and other areas.

What we got is what a friend of mine refers to as a battery problem. Loading on the battery is high, and the ceiling for overload is low. You get burnout and overloading. Thats the crash that you and OTB had.

This is pretty important, or I wouldn't be asking twice.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

"First, I find that it is critical to remove excitotoxin triggers from the diet. This simply involves reading labels and closely monitoring food and supplement intake to avoid excitotoxins. Foods or supplements that contain excitotoxins include MSG (monosodium glutamate), glutamic acid, glutamine, nutrasweet, aspartate, aspartame, and cysteine. Mercury and aluminum can also serve to trigger glutamate release"

My urine tested high for aluminum and also I use tons of glutemine a day thinking it was good 20 grams for years

The brain requires sufficient levels of oxygen and energy to remove excess glutamate. However, glutamate release leads to the release of insulin, which results in decreased glucose levels. I always had problems handling sugar all my life. I was a sugar feen when I was younger and it made me get me hyperactive and mean..

In fact, conditions of hypoglycemia, or low calorie/starvation conditions induce the release of glutamate and reduce the ability to remove excess levels of glutamate from the brain. (dieting for contest time prime example)

WOW NO SHIT
A central problem in neurological inflammation is the function and health of the liver.

No wonder my body was producing taurine like crazy to help lower the glutemate exocitory toxin to produce for gaba

here is the bile acids coming in !! OTB problem
CCK stimulates the gall bladder to release the bile (made by the liver) into the intestines to neutralize the acid and help digest fats. If, however, the pancreas and the liver are in a weakened state, this ideal situation will not occur. Instead, the HCL is still dumped into the small intestine; however, these three proteins will not be released properly. This results in a situation where the intestinal tract will become more acidic due to lack of released bile, and result in an environment that is more conducive to growth of yeast

now i am seeing things much clearer
Individuals should consider supplements to help to detoxify the excess glutamate in the system. These would include branched chain amino acids, pycnogenol, and grape seed extract. Magnesium is critical as it regulates the excess calcium from flowing into the nerves and killing them. Epsom salt baths (magnesium sulfate) are useful particularly if the bathing water is high in chloride and fluoride. Chloride blocks the action of sulfur in the body. Limited amounts of zinc and calcium are fine, but too much will increase nerve damage.

i was taking zinc like crazy passed 2 years and only adding more insult to injury
Supplements that add energy (oxygen and ATP) to the brain will help it to detoxify the inflammatory reactions caused by excess glutamate and heavy metals, which trigger glutamate release. These supplements include ginkgo, vinpocetine, NADH, CoQ10 and carnitine. Carnitine actually helps to increase the energy in the mitochondria, which are the energy producing organelles inside each cell. Carnitine is also useful in repairing liver damage
Sources of Excitotoxins
Definite Sources of MSG

Could the excessive amount of protein powder I was taking contributed to excess glutemate by having it hidden? or could the amount of sushi i consumed have hidden MSG in it and ended up poisoning. It was after that when I really notice my problems arise. I was thinking it was a bacterial infection, but now could it have been excessive glutemate?

Henry Wrote:

"I have a feeling that the naturally-occurring MSG in seaweed is not so bad (as long as you don't go overboard on eating seaweed or sushi), because the seaweed may have other supporting nutrients which counteract the MSG's effects."



Textured ProteinCarrageenan or Vegetable Gum
Seasonings or Spices
Flavorings or Natural Flavorings
Chicken, Beef, Pork, Smoke Flavorings
Bouillon, Broth or Stock
Barley Malt, Malt Extract, Malt Flavoring
Whey Protein, Whey Protein Isolate or Concentrate
Soy Protein, Soy Protein Isolate or Concentrate
Soy Sauce or Extract


Posted by: Trouble

Closer, you're getting the links futher down the chain of events.

This citation might be over your head, but try to see if it makes sense in the big picture of stress associated brain chemistry here.

"The mRNA levels of several genes were significantly increased in autism, including excitatory amino acid transporter 1 and glutamate receptor AMPA-1, two members of the glutamate system. Abnormalities in the protein or mRNA levels of several additional molecules in the glutamate system were identified on further analysis, including glutamate receptor binding proteins. AMPA-type glutamate receptor density was decreased in the cerebellum of individuals with autism.

Conclusions: Subjects with autism may have specific abnormalities in the AMPA-type glutamate receptors and glutamate transporters in the cerebellum. These abnormalities may be directly involved in the pathogenesis of the disorder."

Should start to ring bells.

Per glutamate excess. Its a regulated quantity in brain. You synthesize it, but unshielded (no blood brain barrier present) on hypothalamus causes localized glutamine/glutamate excess. High levels of blood glutamine (dietary sources) can also cause changes in transport of glutamine across the BBB, under certain conditions of low GABA concentrations in the brain (which modulates BBB transport).

My point is NMDA. Go review the relationship between NMDA and glutamate, and GABA again.

The unusually high glutamate in brain is due to a buildup, and local excess in key portions of the brain. Glutamate is the second most important energy source in brain, next to glucose. Its also an important neurotransmitter. Polymoprhism of a gene that regulates glutamate dehydrogenase, the enzyme that metabolized glutamine for energy, is fucked up in a chunk of the population. Plus, translocation of neurotransmitter glutamate seems faulty as well.

This is due to gene silencing, cause by low levels methylation and insufficient glutathione production out of liver. Glutathione and sulfur chemistry being dysfunctional in liver...you get this problem in brain...see?? Connections, important ones.

Methylation reactions keep the housekeeping proteins, called histones, that sit on DNA and keep it safe and tidy in the nucleus, in check. You demethylate these histones, they change shape, and they turn off genes. We call this gene silencing (this is pretty new stuff in the literature).

Silenced genes are the bottom line here. How they get silenced: massive stress loads during brain development, and subsequent acute stress events that keep them silent.


PS: quite throwing the kitchen sink into your replies. Keep it simple.

Now go do a search on glutamate and PTSD.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

The majority of cases of congenital hyperinsulinism appear to be due to defects in insulin secretion by pancreatic cells. Currently, it is thought that mutations in any of four different genes can cause the disorder. One of these genes codes for an enzyme called glutamate dehydrogenase. This enzyme is stimulated by the amino acid leucine, meaning that protein meals that contain leucine lead to activation of glutamate dehydrogenase, which in turn triggers the release of insulin from pancreatic cells.

Could the excess glutemate for all these years be the reason why I kept living in the past so much and keep dwelling on it? All my life i have never been able to let it go. it kept playing back in my head like it was a movie over and over again....

The dysregulation of GABA & glutamatergic pathways is implicated in development and maintenance of
PTSD. These two amino acids (GABA, glutamate) work in tandem to translate experience and stimuli into memory. Extreme stress
can advesely affect these pathways, eventually causing long-term synaptic changes that leads to abnormal, often excessive, encoding
of memory. In essence, memories can become deeply ingrained when these pathways are overstimulated by stress. This mechanism
helps to explain the re-experiencing (e.g, flashbacks) symptoms of PTSD

Usually PTSD sufferers have LOWER than normal cortisol levels - HMMM

i am starting to see where you are going with this now. You are trying to trace back to see what happened in my life that could have caused this imbalance of glutemate. And I will tell you this in college for3 months i comsumed a way protein with aspartame in it at 9 scoops a day and i had such severe brain fogg I had to be under parents superviosin to cook so I would not leave stove on. After month it cleared up as soon as i stopped.

Unless you block the glutamate system, the serotonin will shut down - this sounds all to familar to me.
So stress stimulates glutemate release and it will shut down serotonin production. This just opened my eyes to alot of things !!

So by using the gaba this will preserve the glutamine for other purposes (gluthione, muscle mass, leaky gut) and prevent it from being converted into glutemate?

So stress raises glutemate with cause liver pathway dyfunction because the body will diverting to the CBS pathways to produce taurine and will be diverting from the MS pathway which is needed for production of serotonin and also recycling back to methionne . sound valid ?


Posted by: Trouble

"The majority of cases of congenital hyperinsulinism appear to be due to defects in insulin secretion by pancreatic cells. Currently, it is thought that mutations in any of four different genes can cause the disorder. One of these genes codes for an enzyme called glutamate dehydrogenase. This enzyme is stimulated by the amino acid leucine, meaning that protein meals that contain leucine lead to activation of glutamate dehydrogenase, which in turn triggers the release of insulin from pancreatic cells."

Wait a minute! You're barking up the wrong tree. Thats when you see obese little kids with immediate insulin problems, not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about gene silencing from acute or chonic stress effects during childhood. This changes the slice and dice mechanisms of exon/intron action during gene transcription from DNA to RNA. Its delayed...you don't see the effects right way, some not until adulthood, some even later, in the mid30s.

Thats the silencing of genes that keep this splice and dice to the altered product (RNA that is then transcribed into faulty enzyme, GDH2).

Little different scenario than you suggest. A paper published back in I think 2001 used an animal model to induce social stress for a couple weeks during the equivalent time period of childhood in humans. Stress led to a dump in glutathione, and then loss of methylation control of histones.

They tracked the changes in gene regulation to hundreds of factors in brain.

Massive effect..mostly in the areas that process visual information. You read faces to determine intent in social situations. This brain loci was affected, as was striatal loci (home of dopamine control of addiction and reward responses) and also the unique portion of the brain that encodes for learning language and symbolic logic.

These issues and others are seen as a conglomerate of symptoms, we night call a developmental chronic stress disorder.

Your pattern of circular thinking, where you get caught up in ideas - can happen with other processing, aural - songs that repeat in your brain, or more likely short passages...yeah, you see this kinda problem probably associated with these silenced genes and changes in brain function in specific loci.

Thats called big picture logic. Soup to nuts idea of what might be going in these stress driven disorders. Now you're getting the message that there are ways to help shift this big picture of disturbed biochemistry and gene control towards a more healthy, maybe even near normal, functionality.

That clue was published very recently, like one year ago and another last month, and these recports suggest that methylation issues can be reversed in these gene silencing events, if you got the glutathione...and control glucose methabolism (cause that ROS related) and sterss hormone.

Only way to do that - change lifestyle. Diet, exercise, supplements, change in behaviors and attitude, including modulating stress response by stress management, and returning neuroendocrine and liver system function to an approximation of normal status.

Get my drift here, HAN?? Thats the other half of the story. And you can see why I might pinpoint glutamate and glutathione, GABAnergic system and NMDA, then insulin, cortisol and methylation/transsulfuration pathsways screwups.

I'm among the first to propose this linkage, and tie into a plethora of stress driven disorders. Others have hinted at it.

Probably most telling: CDCs recent published study on autism incidence among school children. No pattern emerges whem demographics are analyzed...only that the number of affected children has risen dramatically in the last 3 decades.

Coincident with the current lifestyle problems driving cardiovascular disease, diabetes, obesity, and cancer: stress, poor diet, and lack of exercise.

Thats what brought me to the world of strength training, and to this forum and others. Y'all are perfect functional models of disturbed neurohormonal controls behind this chronic stress syndrome.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Your pattern of circular thinking, where you get caught up in ideas - can happen with other processing, aural - songs that repeat in your brain, or more likely short passages...yeah, you see this kinda problem probably associated with these silenced genes and changes in brain function in specific loci.

That above paragraph describes me to a T. If you want to delve into my psyche. My mother was 21 and father was 42 and I was born out of wedlock. Every since I was born I had these feelings of not ever being wanted or being self accepted because my mother was wrestling with the idea of if she wanted to keep me or not These feelings began to get more pronounced as I got older. I was best athlete in school but kids would humilate me and pick me last. I was always thinking in my side "what was so wrong with me" One night my brother sat me down and told me it was not me at all, but other people. i had so much going for me, but nights I come home and start anlayzing what was i did that was so wrong to make other not like me. I would cry to release the anger and hold it all inside untill out on the field during sports. I used to get teased and taunted for no reasons. thats why I started to working out to protect my self. To built this strong outer shell, but inside I was very vulerable but never showed it and over time this built up in time. I did load a gun when I was 15 thinking I could not take it any longer, but something maybe reconcider that there is so much more to life and i am not going to give up that easy. MY mom constantly would yell at my dad for no reason and this scared me to death. i would either go up to my room or get out of the house. Still to this day when a person raises their voice it startles me. Still to this day i can not enjoy 4 th of july or shoot a gun because it bothers my ears. As a child was scared to goto kids parties due to fact of balloons pooping and scaring me. So as you can see it was like pattern recognitioin. i see a gun, ballon I cover my ear run other way. I saw my father get yelled at and that was imprinted on me when some one would yell at me to stand there and take it and to do nothing. All my relationship failed because I would try to hard and be to good to make things right and in the end be taken avantage of and used. Still til this day I hear a song and these visual cues would pop in my head and keep playing over constantly. i had people drill into my head that i was worthless, never aount to anything..This was not my parents but my peers. My parents encourage me to do what i wanted never forced me at all and keep a tight wrap on me, but ruling with iron fist meaning if I got in trouble in school or on the streets there would be no sports for that week. So as you can see patterns you pointed out strong are indicitive of me. So you can see I had my mid life crisis 20 years early so to speak.

In order to try to get healed I have explored several avenues one of these avenues was errie. i went to see a spiritaul healer and she said a curse was placed on me years ago. Thinking back to where it could have been placed I finally pinpointed the source. To check her validity I gave her a list of 10 differnt names of people randomly and during this time she was not wathcing me. I rattled off the name (20 of them) and she stopped at one specific name. Now i figured out she got lucky know I knew the name of the spirit and to test her a gain i gave her 10 different names of spirits and with her eyes closed she picked the specific name. To make things ever more mysterious. I called my freind that I have not talked o in 15 years and just left him a message "hey how you been ect. and to call me back" Next day he called me back first words of of his mouth were "you were calling about him (spirit)" This freaked me out and till this day I can remembered when the transfer took place and he remembers it as if it was yesterday as well. When we were kids we did the blood brother cermemony because we both were in to spiritualism and martial arts. He did the ceremony with 2 other people and one of them mysteriously died and other is crippled for life. My friend who is the source is deabliited for live...He is basically a veggiable and now me ..IS this all too coincidental?

Sometimes I do not feel like i belong here strange to explain, but rather a simple explaination. When I was 7 I nearly drowned and during this occasion I saw and felt things I never til this day have felt. While underwater I could only describe that feeeling of love/acceptence i have always wanting to feel. I had a near death expereince. Every since that time I have been given an ability to sense people and what they are feeling sort of like seeing their aura so to speak. Some times these visons as dreams would come to me and I did not know what they meant. Eventualy i started practice mediation when I got sick and got really good at controlling by body and ablility to relax almost as if leaving my body . I know this may all sound strange, but some inciidence that have happen did freak people out. All I know my work in this life was is not done because technically I should not be here. If a cat had nine lives I have used up half of them all ready.

TRouble did you fall into this same profile as well and what triggered your exploration into this field. We all have a reason for doing things.


Posted by: Trouble

You ask how I got into this topic of related stress disorders.

Sure, I had/have it as well. A lot of people do - many more than you would suspect.

The animal model on bullying - that rang a bell right away, as did the feelings of being different..and if you dig down, you find as well, the problems with maternal stress (mother has stress during pregnancy) that appears to bear out over and over in similar cases.

Mother/father divorced, mother left, mother extremely nervous/anxious type or has depression/anxiety disorders - all related causatives for early childhood stress. There is theory in the autism research archives that appears to be borne out by neurophysiology studies conducted recently. That maternal stress hormone levels affect developing prenatals - perhaps changes their sensitivity to stressors.

This might set the role for passive aggression in childhood. Children can be surprisingly good at reading body language - and smelling fear. Kids quickly assert dominance and that spreads within childhood peer groups, so that a rank order of dominance is estabilished. The passive aggressive are at the bottom of the pecking order.

That pecking order behavior can go on for years -a low level stress effect that is chronic, and when combined with a home life that maybe lonely, isolated, and also punctuated with periods of parental stress, which kids are pretty sensitive to, you have a scenario that suggests ongoing reinforcement of previous gene silencing and possiblly a worsening of the condition through development (well into puberty).

See? Patterns again. Right now, off the top of my head, I can list a dozen individuals I know personally, who have related very, very similar patterns of childhood stress. I know there are many more out there. BTW, children who have these childhood assocated stressors are exceptionally good at pattern recognition and are often highly intelligent and...different.

Maybe others who have these attributes will stumble onto this thread, and persevere in its lengthy history, to read this post.

They will have much the same types of symptoms that you, I, and others have had. Most came to bodybuilding for the same reasons, Quite a few got into more difficult health circumstances because of the need to get mass up and bodyfat down - depsie metabolic tendencies towards the contrary. They had to use heavy chemical measures and very strict dieting that unfortunately worsened their neurological difficulties with exictotoxic NMDA and glutamate.

So there you have it. Not so much that I had the same issues, more like the same catalytic patterns of stress during key periods of development, reinforced in young adult and later adult years.

This is the story of systematic gene repression from stress and its manyfold effects on health, on wellbeing and on mental attitudes of fitness and fitting in.

My sincere belief, backed by a still new but slowly growing body of scientific evidence, is that its a largely reversible condition.

I guess one of my contributions during this upcoming phase of my life will be to help identify the factors and conditionals that must be met to reverse these stress disorders.

Anecdotal evidence, beyond the science, says that people can function normally or near normally, with Aspergers syndrome, PTSD (types I and 2), and from various neurological disorders - social deficit, panic disorder, phobia and OCD, depression, mild bipolar diorders, epilepsy..many more disorders - all related to the same root causes - that these can be largely corrected or nudged into more naturally controlled chemsitry.

The larger panopoly of related conditions, that are termed autocrine system disorders, run, as I pointed in my last reply, in a continuum, from severe genetic to mostly expressed and superficially controlled maladies.

This chemistry is linked to somatypes that share the same neurological hardwiring. I call these function ectomorphs and endomorphs - again, anectodotal evidence suggests that these pheonotypes can be nudged with diet and training, to become mesomorphs. Thats affords a method of self correction of the underlying excitotoxicity as well.

I believe my ascertion that these maladies need not be considered permanent health burdens is fundamentally true. Knowledge is power, when you can make people aware that there is hope and a common sense approach to resolving the disheartening syndrome and hardwiring problems of chronic stress disorders.

You could say that's a serendipitous reason for me being here. It fell out of a larger goal, an unexpected benefit of being curious.

PS: To answer you question on the so called transference that took place. Nosir, I don't believe it. Its coincidence of happenstance. To the extent that you believe it, it will control you and cause you no end of grief.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Trouble you brought up a good point i have been taking 5 htp as well and my serotonin 5HIAA via urine are not even detectable and I do have a functioinal b-6, b-12, folic acid deficiency as you already now. So theanine needs only to be taken at night time and not any other time during the day since gaba/mg/taur is being taken in small dosages. So to get aron And like OTB i can not get rejuvenate sleep so my body can repair. its like no matter what I do I can not boost serotonn it keeps going down, but dopamne, norepherpherine are balanced. Once the glutamate is undercontrol then should also help to increase it. Also does my fucked up thyroid play a big part in serotnin productioin as well. I have wounds that are weeks old and have not healed, slow protein synthesis is probably not helping the issues and I have been bleeding like a crazy when I get cut. i have tried everything to boost serotonin, but everything has been ineffective. So theanine is an indirect way of increasing it. i have read several reports with mixed information that theanine raises serotonin and some even say it decreases it.There is so much conflicting evidence I do not know what to believe. REaction to gaba has stop so hopefully that is a good sign.

I have been thinking about your previous thread and it sure makes alot of sense. I swear psychologist have giving out antidepressants like they were PEDS and never even offered other options. I was seeing a psychiastrist for 2 months and all he wanted to do was stick me on drugs and when I mentioned about meditation and relaxation techniques he just turned other way. I told them if there was evidence or testing to verify there reasoning for medicine then I would be more open, but giviing a person paxil and then 6 weeks later trying someting elese just does not cut. I know I have a serotonin deficency but I tried paxil and did not do a damn thing but made me more agitated. through stress management I have gotten my self back to sound mind even with zero serotonin I am handling things pretty well. With out serotonin may be a biochemical factor that could be affecting my blood sugar levels, but its probaly not the only thing i am sure. And when one looks at teenagers, i am sure many of them are going through same thing we have been through at even an earlier age. Given the stress the mother endures before a child is even born has increased tremendously in the past 10-15 years and now I think we are seeing the reprocussion of this genetic dna splicing you are speak of. I talk to my freind Bigpete you were helping and directed him to this thread and it answered alot of questions he had been seeking. So it already is starting to make its impact, just hope more explore it with open mind.

After relaxing last night 2 hours after my last meal I took sugar be fore bed and it was 119. morning was 107 and I could not sleep at all last night. I schedule to go see dr, but if the test comes back 1 pt from being from the top number or bottom number he will not treat me. This been the problem from the start "in the range" bullshit. He and many other medical drs wil not treat you unless you are 20% above or below the range. i just can not stabilize sugar even eating super clean... i did run out of theanine if that makes that big of a dfference I do not know..


Posted by: Trouble

Do you have TMG and glucuronolactone? 0.5-1 gram TMG, 1 gram of the lactone, separately, before meals, 20 min. 3x per day, watch your blood sugar, monitor it and back off if the lower number drops below 65. Do this only if the doctors won't treat you.

Lets get your pancreas going again. Start with the other supps, I think we can do this without exogenous insulin, especially if the doc won't order it for you. We use a smart chemistry on the HPA. We will do this by PM, the approach is a little unorthodox; I will carefully explain how and why this should work for you.

Warming to readers: those wth functional insulin release, and insulin insensitivity should not be using excess TMG.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

I know this sounds far fetched but can consuming a large amount of sushi say 90 pieces could this cause a self intoxifaction of glutamate. I was fine untill I ate a large amount of sushi from a cheap chinese restuarant and this was just icing on the cake, like a said a week prior I had alot of sugar from a very low carb eating habits for over 2 years. People told me "go back to eating normal have a little sugar". i some potatoes and some steak and I started sweating and was in totally confusion. Diabetes does run in my family. I have also below lmid evel of vitamin D as well if that could be a factor. I have been taking methylcobalamin as well for over a year and it does not seem to be helping the methionne synthase pathway. Since I can not get my blood sugar low enough, this inhibits glucagon (gh release) and also cortisol release. Like I said there was no warning signs on blood test it was like my adrenals just went to sleep there was no elevated cortisol serum at any given time, just a sudden drop. Through stress management (theanine, gaba,relaxatin) by lowering the blood sugar should also trigger cortisol to be released to create a repsonse that would be seen in slight hypoglycemia. And by lower the blood sugar this should also cause increase hungery as well since lower sugar does cause increase hunger. Yes I agree we would try this method first before messng around with cAMP. Get that blood sugar issue taken care through both physical and biologial mehtods then may be the body will be taken out of starvation mode so the elevated RT3 would eventually be decreased and converison of t4 to t3 be increased and this chain reaction would also stimulate LH to get testosterone back on line, then the subclinical hyperglycemia will then also reduce the stress on the liver by lowering the glutamate. Sound sound plasable in theory.

I am still waiting on Rala and should this also help stabilize sugar, but does it affect insulin secretion?.
The TMG taken before the meal, will that only work for that meal that is eaten or will it work for a sustain time frame?
With lack of insulin will this put me at risk for an intracellular potassium and magnesium deficiency over time?
Would the TMG work alone or do they work synergistic?
Would using glucose urine strips be a good measure to see if I was spilling gluose in urine. I was having trace amount of proteins showing up a while back..

You know what i just though of something my blood sugar did not go up untill I started to increae my protein intake could this be a factor the extra protein is converting to glucose through gluconeogenisis and since insulin is dysfunctional it causing increase sugar levels?

Do you think we should back off on protein untill we get the insulin issue resolved?

Have a feeling my body is not using the protein for repair and other functioins but rather as a fuel source, could this explain symptoms of protein deficeincy I could be expereincing?

When should I monitor blood sugar levels with your approach? after I eat or just morning ? I figure our goal would be to get blood sugar back to base line before the next meal is this correct.

Would having barely any sulphate stores have any impact on insulin production?

Would the dyfunctional insulin (stress induced) alter my body to produce serotonin since tryptophan needs to cross the blood brain barrier ?
My serotonin whole blood was mid normal but it just does not seem to be metabolizing or binding to the receptors

If there was one complaint that I had from the beignning I kept telling drs i felt dry inside..


Posted by: hardasnails1973

I am going to drs today. I dug up alot more things these "DRS" overlooked and it was staring them in the face all the time. From what I have gathered I am looking am possible looking at diabetes ketoacidosis from elevated anion gap and also albumin, but I will wait untill the final diagnosis is made.
Yes I found that hypoglycemic oral medicines will lower serum b-12, folic acid levels how ironic eh?

Could blood sugar be rising for fact that supplying the internediates are now activating the krebs cycle but due to insulin dysfunction no nutrients can get into the cells and why I have been osing more weight past few days?


Will insulin manupulation through supplementation work if there is no building blocks to make the insulin. IE sulfur, proteins?

Am blood sugar was 122 at 6 am this morning ..

GLuose test is set for net wednesday, He agrees with whats going on, but I had to do all the lag work to show him then bastard charges me double for complexity of the problem. I mentioned glutamate and how I muscle twitch especially in my intestines. He just nodded his head
WTF do I pay these drs for? when they just agree but we are focusing on blood sugar irregularities and also backing up of latic acid in the blood as well. So should be interesting next wed. ALso checking on hemogobin glucose llevels and IGF-1

Dr agreed on glutamate toxicty on the brain from (stressor) explaining my seizures and muscle spasms I have just laying down. I have spasm in my gut to could there be connections.hmm

More and more research I come across the more pissed I get that drs over look the most simple stuff. Instead of looking down stream of a water fall they should be looking at where the cascade begins. I bet you alot of people many being athletes are suffering this at different levels.

The excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate plays a major role in determining certain neurological disorders. This situation, referred to as 'glutamate neurotoxicity' (GNT), is characterized by an increasing damage of cell components, including mitochondria, leading to cell death. In the death process, reactive oxygen species (ROS) are generated. The present study describes the state of art in the field of GNT with a special emphasis on the oxidative stress and mitochondria. In particular, we report how ROS are generated and how they affect mitochondrial function in GNT. The relationship between ROS generation and cytochrome c release is described in detail, with the released cytochrome c playing a role in the cell defense mechanism against neurotoxicity.

So the key to neutralizing this shit is to reduce glutamine synthetase
The correlation with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis has been rolling around in my mind for awhile..


Posted by: Trouble

I think the doctors need to sort this out, at least some of the symptom connections. You need to be evaluated for possible diabetes due to insulin insufficiency / pancreas shut down.

I think you should quietly ask for a CFS screening, just to be sure. Many of your symptoms are coincident with adult onset CFS. I came across a website yesterday, and in the process of posting it to you, my system crashed, so I no longer have that citation, and it was a long assed search that led to it indirectly. Glutamate synthase regulation is through GABA control of GLU transcription receptors. Thats a GABA issue. Look to GABA chemistry, its relationship with NMDA and glutamine, for your answer.

Stress and key system depletion from its affects, thats your target.

Just a note, if your description was muddled, you know, it probably sounded like you sorta knew, but weren't quit sure of whats going on. For a physician with limited time for each patient, its not a good idea to just down load these ideas in a rush, and say what do you think? Its confusing, and its irritating to have a patient lecture you. Instead, you ask for a metabolic profile. metamatrix.com


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Yes they are running a full immune profile. If it comes back low he suggested to go see immunologist. I have tested negative on all viral and food allergies. I had profile done by metametrix 3 months ago and it showed liver pathways blockage gluthione pathway, low glutione, low b-6, biotin, protein carb fat metabolites all low, low vitamin C, low kreb cycle intermediates, low BCAAS. Since adding in the barly bran from rice bran in shakes and the theanine (ran out) blood sugar is stabilizing after eating..to 117 at one hour so thats a good sign. The excess zinc 80-100 mgs for many months you and he both mentioned it could be suppressing my immune system. So we are backing off to no more then 60mgs a day as a precaution and agreed taking it sublingually is good idea. He asked me what supplements I was taking and he was thats excellent. But i just told him my father, uncle do have diabetes and told him my new symptoms that have changed since starting the high sat fat diet and he was highly concerned. He likes to read info I had. Yes i was pressed for time but drs cost so much money the ones that are willing to help. He agreed that there is someting going on in homocysteine cycle and he said with supplement list I provided he said that should help greatly. Showed him research on low homocyteine levels and it intriqued him he never saw one that low before, hes cool like that and he even tells me he enjoys learning from his patience. I really was not slamming stuff down his throat, just mentioned the changes I was experiencing past 2 months from starting high fat diet and symptoms that have changed anf that my dad and uncle have diabetes should I be concerned. I told him I took my blood sugar and results. Immdediatly, He recommended the GTT and blood work to accompany it. He mentioned about the glutamate toxcity and how stressors can affect it and he asked me question of muscle twitching I said yes. I told him I am working on stabilizing the mental aspect through stress reduction. He said its his job to identify the physical stress. He commended me on taking all the necessary steps for stress reduction now he needs to rule out other variables. He is now thinking it was not mercury. I mentioned sushi was what pushed me over could it be loaded with toxins ? he said yes. So it was very productive one hour thats why I was trying to get every thing in. One drs diagnoses was chronic fatigue due to enviormental toxins but he never said what toxins and what do to next left me hanging with no follow no treatment.

With stress reduction and your supplementation program we are working on quieting the glutamate and returning homocystein back to methionne. Nothing can be done untill testing results come back and next phase begins. Untill then we wait and continue what I have been doing.

I had low lithium levels in my hair tissue a yeat ago and this modualtes glutamate levels..


Posted by: Trouble

Go find the lithium thread (ATB started it) back at Avant Lab forums. I was skeptical, but after reading up on it, I can see that some people have poor absorption (chelation) of monovalent cations (co-transport with Na+), it might not be a bad idea to try it. Read up on it and you decide.

No! The muscle spasms have ZERO to do with glutamate. Its magnesium, you're low on it because your renal tubules, like your gut, is not long water tight and intact. We've gone thru this before, its calcium buildup from a lack of symporter (magnesium) in the calcium pump transmembrane channel.

I worked at Vanderbilt in the lab that did the big biochemistry work on calcium pump, I really do know what I am talking about.

Exnay with the sushi bullshit. It was a simple case of insulin insufficiency because you hate a shitpot of white rice. Mabe a little MSG issue, but come on, a single sitting and your suddenly toxic??? (What in hell were you thinking if you were starving yourself and then suddenly go out and gorge on sushi? Ninety pieces, are you nuts?). That would be enough to make anyone feel ill, if their insulin release wasn't working right.

Anyway forget this bullshit about Hg and toxins garbled ideas. Its wasn't the sushi, unless YOU soaked it in high MSG soy sauce. Even then, it should be transient.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

i will read up on that for sure. Yes I ate a ton of rice and slamming down 2-3000 mgs of ALA at that sitting I thought would help (except I forgot biotin). Out of all that time taking ALA 2 years high dosages I never balanced it with any biotin I did not know back then..Young and dumb ok i admit.Will not listen to FOnze again on elite LOL. Yep after that little sugar rush not knowing I started adding dextrose 100 grams post work 4-5 tmes a week like a moron (not knowing insulin dysfunction problem). after 4 weeks stopped that but I think the damage already was done. i kept insulin levels low during the day and spiked it after like you are suppose to do. Followed Berardi's massive eating plan worked great in the past..

Lithium also drives b-12 and folic acid into the cell ..need to do more research and if I remeber right lithium helps thyroid receptors binding as well, and lowers blood sugar (due to modulating the glutamate levels possible?)
need to research that article on avant labs.

So being the fucken moron I was using oh 1000-2000 mgs a day of shitty ALA and not taking any biotin for 2 years. I was causing my mitochndrion to slow down and altering my insulin metabolism running it into the ground with all these spikes with postwork out blitzes and weekend carb ups. and by causing a biotin deficeincy insulin metabolism was fucked up royally on top of all the stress I had at the time put my pancrease to sleep when it most needed it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

INTERESTING..inositol and lithium are antagonistic
There is a fine balance with everything,,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

I nicely mentioned how all my lipids were low on tests and I asked if insulin raises them would lack of lower them...He was like yes you are correct


Posted by: Trouble

"I had profile done by metametrix 3 months ago and it showed liver pathways blockage gluthione pathway, low glutione, low b-6, biotin, protein carb fat metabolites all low, low vitamin C, low kreb cycle intermediates, low BCAAS."

I was enroute to the gym when this hit me.

You mean, you made me derive your lab results from first principles??? And you had them all this time?

Fucking-A. Well, at least you know I know my shit. Jesu, HAN! It would have made the deductive process faster and easier. I do this sitting with a computer and from memory. Kinda energy intensive, ya know?

Lithium acts in opposition to inositol and a helluva lot more than that. Since both analytes are low, keeping the doses lows (recommended in that AL forums thread) is the way to go.

Berardi just got his PhD, I've had mine for quite a while. His massive eating plan is toxic for a big chunk of the population. Read [ur;=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=146674 76] this [/url]. Your insulin and glucose metabolism isn't well in hand, your fucked. It mentions your MSG problem too.

I do NOT believe you were dumb enough to take grams of ALA, without a suitable reducing equivalent to recycle it. My god, you just goosed the shit out of ROS, on top of hypocaloric feeding.

You, and others like you, are your own worst enemy. I know of several who misused a thyroid hormone analogs - to get lean for some fricking one time show. They take these compounds full dose and more, for a long, long time. Surprise! Major thyroid, liver and adrenal fuckups. Not gonna listen to me though on how to correct the problems, no sir. These people want a doctor to fix it.

Ah well, live and learn. IF you can get your problems to ease, you will be one lucky pup. The human body is amazingly forgiving.

We are at a conclusion here. Good luck.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

I did not know there were different forms of biotin and only one active form which I was not taking. Well I got that taken care of now so will monitor things since adding in the active form. Correcting this problem should start to drive up the PGE1, pge2, pge3 and correct fatty acid deficeincy as well jump starting adrenals from increase of the PGE2 from arachodonic acid from insulin secretions. NO wonder adrenals were fuck metabolism of b-5, folic acid, b-12, were altered. Increasing biotin with krala should be a nice combination..


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Once I switched to d-biotin at 16 mgs a day (according to the diabetic study) I noticed that my white tongue is starting to clear up and blood sugar is even more stable. Biotin deficiency affects glucokinase which secretes insulin so if I fucked up by taking too much ALA then replacing the biotin may hopefully kick it back on as well as stress management, supplements to clear liver.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

After going on higher carbs then usual I notice my blood sugar is staying higher elevated..This is a good thing so it will give a better indication to drs that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Morning blood suga was 98 2 hours after breakfast it was 195 YEAH BOY !!
low carbs where hiding the problem. Keeping on higher carbs due to GTT and then I will implemented procotol for increasing insulin levels hopefully getting it to be about 90 after 2 hours and then I can start shutting in carbs and get out of starvation mood so thyroid can regulate and adrenals can function normal again


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Serum T3 was significantly lower and serum rT3, significantly higher in diabetic patients prior to treatment as compared to normal subjects and both T3 and rT3 normalized in 20 patients studied when adequate metabolic control was achieved as reflected by normalization of HbA1 (less than 8.2%).

This supports evidence is more supporting of insulin dyfunction..tomorrow we will see .

So self induced (diet stress,ect) insulin resistance could lead to Reverse t-3 syndrome due to livers inablility to deiodinatize (d2) and eventually to pancreae producing little or no insulin. And low insulin can lower t4 to t3 converstion as well plus many other factors.


Posted by: Trouble

I have a thread on de-iondination chemistry elsewhere. You should read up on it. There are di-iodothyroacetic acid T2 analogs that may help feed this pathway. They must be used cautiously and for limited periods of time if deiodination is impaired. This pathway is thyroxine independent, and is used by the body in times of extreme stress to supply metabolic regulation when thyroxine is depleted.
================================================== =====
I want you and OTB to consider use of this online smart diagnostic tool which may help you and physician reach a solid diagnosis.

I recommend it; you can choose one of two inexpensive report levels to suit budget and needs.

I would consider printing out this thread and taking it with you to your medical consultation tomorrow.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Thanks i printed it out and looks comprehensive and will give it to him tommorrow. You have an open mind about these things. I forgot to tell you that I rarely ever salted my food for past 10 years. Could that have an impact on thyroid at all? i know this may be medical quackery but I put an iodine patch on my skin and it disappeared with in an hour. I know alot of naturopaths use this, but how accurate of an indicator is it? Mercola recommends it being on there for 48 hours and mine was gone with an hour? i have been only using sea salt being sick and it neither contains iodine either? You also mentioned about being hypomagnesium which would be a huge factor in metabolic enzymatic reactions. I have been taking chelated magnesium supplements out the ass for 2 years and still mag deficeint I guess I just might be excreting them faster then being used up due cellular leakage as you previously indicated.

TRouble what should your blood sugar be before each meal under 90?


Posted by: Trouble

Sea salt contains microminerals that your body needs; I use it in preference to standard salt, and it tastes better. Its now available from various parts of the world, and varies in flavor by locale (red salts from Hawaii, Celtic Sea Salts, French Salts, etc). Theyre not terribly expensive; I use mine in a grinder specially made for salt (otherwise, its corrosive).

If you are short of iodine, its up to your doctor to evaluate it, but unless have goiter, its not overt in its shortage in the human body.

In order to process ions in the renal tubule, you need B6 for ion homeostatis. Find and use P5P, the bioactive form of vitamin B6 which you body many not be converting correctly.

Chelated magnesium may not be fully absorbed by the body. Low B6, and you underproduce stomach acids, which you need to release the magnesium.

Use the mag citrate, we know it will be easily absorbed in the gut.

Blood sugar between 85-95 or even 100 is acceptable, below 75, more overt signs of low blood glucose may be present.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

See my blood sugar been averaging 115-120 before each meal..Tommorrow I politely ask about iodine defiency and get a proper cliincal diagnosis no dr has even check for goiter..I do have problems swallowing feels like a little lump in throat but i will have the dr check i out. I have been taking p5p for years and still showing low out put LOL Insulin !! why my serum vitamin C levels are high normal not being driven in and protein is not being ultizied. After tommorrow I am going to impliment insulin manupulation you recommended to see if we can jump start this inuslin production.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

I had the test done and dr is really looking into insulin dysfunction, but I have an idea test will come back normal like everything else. I found this excerpt but I can not find what causes high glucagon levels other then insulin deficeincy.

In healthy subjects intravenous glucagon administration induces a prompt (at 1 h) fall in serum T3 concentration and a later (at 4 h) rise in biologically inactive rT3. Since high levels of plasma glucagon have frequently been found in some patients with severe chronic illnesses, together with an anomalous thyroid condition (low serum T3, high serum rT3), it has been supposed that hyperglucagonemia could play a pathogenetic role in causing selective T3 deficiency

Serum or urine amino acid levels: These levels demonstrate hypoaminoacidemia. A general decrease of gluconeogenic and nongluconeogenic amino acids occurs, especially alanine and glutamine levels. The cause of the hypoaminoacidemia is thought to be the increased hepatic extraction of amino acids for gluconeogenesis and increased ureagenesis combined with decreased protein synthesis.

REad your link on bile acid congulation and it fits me perfectly except I have low stomach acid I beleive but there is no way to tell this. MY urine test shows beneze pathway is over loaded but I do not eat food preservatives or take steroid injections. But if I remember right taurine or glycine can be used in that detoxfication pathway. Even if I tested normal on cystein levels on urine tests is N- acteyl cysteine the same thing?

Even the supplements we take b-vitamin , C, ect they still require stomach acid to be utlized and absorbed even in powder form or pill form?
Would taking vitamins with apple cider vinegar aid in there absorption if low stomach acids.

So fucked up bile acid production affects your villa as well like celiac?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

GOOD INFO !! TROUBLE

Thyoid:
kick start T4-T3 conversion, upregulate thyroid and adrenals

* Increased activity levels to encourage favorable partitioning
* Vinegar (acetate) and citrate (grapefruit, lemon and orange juice)
* Tyrosine, Kelp, Selenium

Hormonal:
Less than stellar hormonal profile - kickstart test production

* Low dose anti-e OR improve estrogen shuttle out of the body via glucuronate
* Forskolin and inositol/glucuronic acic lactone/IP6 (10:2:2), plus selenium methionate plus zinc, ascorbate
*Choline, Nicotinic Acid, Policosanal

Cortisol issues:

* Regular cardio of some type
* Anti-cortisol supp (e.g. 7-OH) at night preferably, daytime cautiously, taurine, omega-3s for control
* Correction of sleep issues: restore GABA, taurine, and phosphoinositol pathways
* Correction of stress issues
* Relaxation supp (e.g. l-theanine), GABA, magnesium

Oxidation issues:

* Vitamin C, Vitamin E, K-R-ALA, Fish Oil

Insulin Regulation:

* Vinegar -Acetate, Chromium, Banaba Leaf, Cinnulin
* Diet - High Protein/Low-Mod Carb for Glucagon/Insulin Regulation

VAT:

* Ab-solved

-Added a few - not positive they are in line with the consensus so feel free to remove any

-I'm definately interested in any more ways to improve endomorphic tendencies, and seeing dosage ranges based upon body mass


Posted by: Trouble

Good, now add in the bit about transulfuration pathway, with attention to cysteine and methionine, homocysteine.

Play it again, Sam.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Once I get my cells opened up with proper insulin metabolism then we can start feeding liver/muscle glycogen. Since glucuronic acic lactone acts to increase glyocgen since it is converted from glucose then will adding it in increase glycogen with out insulin present or do you need insulin. I got a pump first time in a while tonight at the gym, but bad shortness of breath on cardio (acidosis - ph in balance)

TRouble whats best type of weight training for glycogenic adaptation?.

should cardio be done away from weights due to it lower glycogen after training (what I am trying to prevent).

And can you shed some light on glucuronic acic lactone on insulin production all I can find cites on damn canines and not humans and if i remeber my phyisology right animals can produce vitamin C endogenously
Thanks actually girl I am dating is going through same thing. CFS and FM How ironic huh? Shes got the works as well candida,altered liver pathways, pain, adrenals,leaky gut , ph imbalances, allergies but being a model you never know it.. First thing I told her is if she wants to get better she has to change lifestyle pattern and stress reduction and calm the hypothalamus adrenal axis. She is working with a naturopath and good MD but all her test ranges are in the range as well but she has low cholesterol, triglycerides, high calcium, It feel like Deja vu LOL... She has epstein bar virus but doesn't 80% of americans as well.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

can one be insulin resistant even though they have normal blood work ?


Posted by: Trouble

You don't have insulin resistance, you have insulin insufficiency, as indicated by previous blood work.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

So basically i am fucked till I get this corrected. Another week till get GTT back and if that comes up normal i am screwed. I ordered everything for insulin protocol hopefully it get here soon. So having low cholesterol and low triglycerides all my life i was prone to this? I love how drs tell you nothing wrong and you are healthy with cholesterol of 100 i had this all my life. I have a gut feeling get insulin working again i can start feeding my glycogen and replenish the liver and muscle pull my body out of this starvation mood and reverse those rt3, as well as reversing acidosis from starvation. i check for ketones and glucose in urine and nothing is showing up. Would this because I am not eating a boatload of carbs like other americans?


Posted by: Trouble

*sigh* Do not take the wrong way....

Pull your head out of your ass.

Your insulin is low. Your glucose utilization is as good as it can be with low glucose uptake because of low insulin, which you manage for already to keep you from going too hypo.

You burn your ketones; this is not uncommon for someone in your condition.

The tests will come back showing you have one of 4 types of hypoglycemia, and that will point at insulin insufficiency.

Now look here, you can manage this sucker without a whole lot of wailing and hand wringing, we've talked about what is wrong here, remember?

Regardless of what your docs find, you need :

1. to suck it up and be an adult here - you did more than a little to help yourself down this road, HAN. You can't fool me; you can't blame this on your doctors.

2. You have bad ass stress, and you're stuck in punative thinking. Get positive; you are 99% ahead of the rest of the crowd. Make a vow to manage this condition and slowly get your health back. Its doable and we've talked it out for a dozens and dozens of posts on how to do it, what to do, and when to do it.

3. stop the circular logic that somehow doctor is gonna make it all there there. You are the one who must be proactive. Just as you know damn well this hasn't been a lifelong condition, so you also know that its largely reversible if you get the biochemical knots untangled. You haven't been using the right supps and some of the ones you did use got you into hot water...along with fucking with your thyroid, which had a nasty ass rebound effect.

Get with the progam, get your head clear on square up those shoulders. Do what needs to be done, stop looking for scapegoats.

You're either your own worst enemy or the only problem solver that can made the needed corrections.


Posted by: P-funk

I would just love to know how you have enough money to pay for all these tests and all these Doctor's appointments. I can't see insurance covering all this. This has been going for like 3 years with you now, right??


Posted by: hardasnails1973

All factors are now being handled as previously discussed. I did run out of BCAAS and i did feel a difference with in a week being off them so reordered some more. My body seems to be processing protein better with BCAAS for some reason. BCAAS are used for liver dysfunction and hepatitus recovery, and stimulate insulin secretion hmmm maybe that is why.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Got my blood sugar from 135 to 85 2 hours after last meal ...YIPPE !! why I feel like I have hardly any anxiety at all. I feel so relaxed and not up tight for a change. feel good actually..


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk
I would just love to know how you have enough money to pay for all these tests and all these Doctor's appointments. I can't see insurance covering all this. This has been going for like 3 years with you now, right??
I fucked my self up from pushing my self to hard physcally and mentally stressed my systems to the max and not being properly supported nutritional along with several other varibles adding fuel to the fire. . As of know what ever the cause does not matter just have to deal with what needs to be done at hand and it is reversible just going to take time. Have to take each layer at a time and slowly rebuild back to normal. Getting blood sugar and mental stress under control are just the first steps to recovery. ALot of the testing is not covered by insurance.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Goal: correct mitochondrion dysfunction, and reduce acid in body, suppress glutamate conversion from glutamine

I just recieved my k rala, acetlycarnitine, co enzyme q10, bentifomine (b-1), d biotin, coenyzme b complex, carosine. ACtually found real citric acid (tastes like shit).

I was researching and was figuring for mitochondrial dysfunction
100 mgs k rala with 3-4 meals
1000 mgs ALCAR 2 times a day,
300 mgs (b-1) 2 times a day
200 mgs co enyzme q10 x 2 times
10 mgs d biotin once a day
1000 mgs carosine x 2 times
subligual co enzyme b 2 x 2 a day

can not find literature on if the r-isomer will chelate minerals out of the body (zinc, copper, manganese).

Lab should be in for intracellular testing of minerals, vitamins, antioxidents (ALA,nac,gluthione,sulfur) so from there I can supplement only what is required and stop wasting money playing guessing games...

Adding in supergreen foods for alkalizing body as well as reverse osomosis water 32 oz once a day mixed in
diet is 80% alklaine, 20% acid (using protein shakes as previously indicated)
potassium is at 5 grams and sodium is a 2-3 grams (celtic sea salts)
2 hours of sunight a day if possible
Stress reduction - mediation 20 minutes x2 times a day
all computers , tV shut off 1 hour before bed , read a book to relax mind
1 hour before bed 500 mgs calcium hyproxilaite with 500 mgs before bed (sleep like a baby and do not wake up till 6 am with energy), Breathing is much better sleeping after taking cal/mag combo
3 healty trinity before bed time for probiotics.

Still have samme going at 800 mgs a day with 2000 mgs TMG, 1000 mgs inosital/choline, 500 mgs gaba , taurine, x3 , magnesium, 5000 mgs glutemine, 5000 mgs BCAAS, 200 mgs theanine x3

Energy levels are increasing, mind feels more calming not so much anxiety, still feeling dehyrated even from drinking water with sea salt


Posted by: Trouble

Do not use glutamine. Its toxic to you. Its causing your dehyration. Pitch it out or mark it as toxic. I can't believe that you're contemplating using it. You have a nitrogen cycle issue in liver and brain. You buildup ammonia and have insufficient NAC, methionine and cyseine to make glutathione (and that takes B6 which you don't absorb and convert correctly). I would use small doses of sea salt and also V-8 juice to get meet your sodium needs. Where is your sam-e? You need it and PUFA-3, vitamin E, vitamin C, and alcar as anti-oxidants.

Be very careful loading up with potassium and calcium and not balancing it with sufficient magnesium. Its magnesium, not calcium, that you short of.

You need zinc, and you need the active form of B6, P5P to add to your stack. Its one of the key cofactors that you can't absorb or make in your present state. If should be taken with vitamin B12 and B2 (usually comes prepared with B2).


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Zinc is at 60 mgs a day with 4 mgs copper
sam-e is at 400 mgs x 2 times a day, 20 minutes before meals before 3 pm
P5P is in the coemzyme subligual b vitamins 50 mgs
Glutamine is DROPPED as of now. Yes My ammonia was higher then any other metabolic factor on organic acids test,
magnesium 1/1 ratio with calcium (500 mgs supplemental) 1000 mgs each
vitamin C ascorbate 3000 mgs a day
vitamin e 800 ius
glutamine is converting to glutamate as previously discussed, i thought gabba neutalizes this reaction? Glutamine is suppose to in crease cell hyrdation but in my case it is ausing cellular dehyration correct

Omega 3's are provided in balaced EFA formula added to shakes. RBC lipid showed elevated dha, epa levels (probably not getting transported in to mitochondrion for metabolism) with low levels of LA, LNA

400 mgs b-2 once a day piss is still not yellow. Does this mean I need more?

Could this explain my conversion problem?
This glutamate-glutamine conversion also requires ATP energy, however, and this anti-excitotoxic mechanism is also at risk if cellular energy production is comprises for any reason. (3) Also, excessive free radicals can prevent glutamate uptake by astrocytes, thereby significantly (and dangerously) raising extra cellular glutamate levels (18). (18).

From this brief discussion of the mechanisms of NMDA-glutamate excitotoxicity, it should be clear that there are 5 main conditions which allow glutamate to shift from neurotransmitter to excitotoxin:

1) inadequate neuronal ATP levels (whatever the cause);

2) inadequate neuronal levels of magnesium, the natural, non-drug calcium channel blocker;

3) high inflammatory prostaglandin / leukotriene levels (caused by excessive glutamate-NMDA stimulated calcium invasion);

4) excessive free radical formation (caused by prostaglandin / leukotriene formation and/or insufficient intracellular antioxidants/free radical scavengers;

5) inadequate removal of glutamate from the extracellular (synaptic) space back into neurons or into astrocytes.




Trouble I have been taking P5P for a long time but for some reason it is not getting uptake into the cell. Is this because of inuslin imbalance? or other factors such as ph level? With out conversion of glutamine from glutamate would it make it difficult to neutralize the acid and balance ph?. This deficiency would explain my slight seizures i have been having. Probing further the GAD enzyme needs zinc as well and all the DAMN reports I get tell me i am low in zinc despite taking it. This low zinc would also explain why some enzyme with p5p are working and ones a filated with zinc are not..

trouble am I getting warmer about learning what is going on with NMDA?
Thanks


Posted by: hardasnails1973

So if i was eating all those whole eggs and poly unsat fats as on that "detox" diet and I was already low on carnitine (via urine testing) to begin with. What would reprocussions be? a more compromised fatty liver?

Since i was taking cocconut oil in the past and had built up saturated fats in cell membrane. I understand that MCT do not need carnitine to be transported in the mitochondrion, but does carnitine need to be present for them to be utlizied for cellular energy?

If your body is low in choline will it break down cell membranes to replenish it and induced apoptoisis?

How much scientific truth is to the fact that if your ph is altered nutrients would have harder time entering the cell for processing?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

TRouble how does ALA chelate minerals (copper,ect)
Does it do it by pulling it out of cell/tissue or by binding it up in the intestinal tract
Does R-ALA pose the same threat as metal chelator

Will zinc loznegers alleviate any problems with digestive tract?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Trouble does lack of bile flow when eating fats cause "soap" to form in the intestines and can hinder aborption of other minerals?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Just got my tests back from mineral analysis
Co enzyme q10 is severely deficeiny
zinc as well
and vitamin E is in the shitter

Problem in mitochondrion is oxidative phosphorylation which is inhibiting ATP


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Sensitivity to gabba has completely gone and sleep is back to sound 8 hours. Breathing is much deeper and relaxed, not as shallow during sleep. Bowels are moving better they have in a year. Energy is back to normal no need for sleep any more.

i am just curious of how computer can affect serotonin levels. Since light stimulates serotonoin i would figure it would raise it? is the problem with computers the duration which one sits in front of them or more so the time that is spent later at night is more the problem or combination of the both

Which would cause lower serotonin , melatonin levels

a person that is in office all day long in front of computer and does not go on at all after dark
or
a person that is not infront of the computer all day long and decides to go on 2-3 hours when it is dark

People think i am nuts for having a shield in radition shield on my computer and also one one my cell phone..


Posted by: Trouble

Its not a function of magnetic effects.

Its related to brain stimulation duration and intensity.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

up at 6 am
relaxation for 20 minutes

meal 1
lean protein - 3oz beef/turkey combination
yams - 4oz
veggies steams - 2 cups
organic butter on yam -

30 minute walk after breakfast outside

meal 2,3,4
whey/egg protein mix 30 grams
1 raw organic egg - eggglands
1/3 cup barely bran
2 tsp udos 1 tsp EVO

meal 5
lean protein
spinach
1/2 cup presaoked legummes

20-30 minute walk after dinner outside

bed by 10 pm or bed relaxation 20 minutes

Sunlight 1-2 hours a day
Samme 400 BID
coenzyme q 10 200 mgs TID
esterC - 500 mgs each meal
vitamin E 800 ius BID
multivitamin/mineral before breakfast/dinner
super digestive enzyme - 1 each meal
gabba/taurine/magnesium/theanine - 500/500/200/200 TID
PC - 800 mgs TID with meals
RALA/ALC - 100 mgs/500 mgs BID
Apple cider - 2 TBSP TID
methlyl cobalain 5000 mcgs BID
folonic acid 800 mgs BID
zinc lozengers 30 mgs BID
b coenyzme subligual TID
TMG 1000 mgs BID
probiotic 50 bilion before bed Bifidolpholic - natren trinity
calcium 250 mgs TID
iron chelated 25 mgs BID


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Update
Through troubles advice I am getting back on my feet back to benching 315 for a few and squating 405 for a few but its a start. Constipation is still a bitch but thats due to adrenal/ thyroid /liver imbalance. i am going to dr and see if i can get time released t-3 because when ever I take armour thyroid I crap 2 hour on the dot probably be cause t-3 peaks during that time, but its only my guess. The herb gynemna sylverstra has help trendously balancing out my blood sugar levels as well as reducing adrenaline associates with reactive hypoglycemia which alot of people have and do not even know it. Hope this helps some other people. But never giving up my relaxation 2 times a day or my walks. I am also flushing out liver/ gallbladder with PC to help heal the cell membranes and to prevent EFA deficeincy due to cell membrane deterioration. As trouble mentioned before if i can replenish the glycogen levels in my liver that will definetly add in recovery of thyroid due to prolong starvation mood. I am estimating a good 4-6 months to accomplish that.


Posted by: Trouble

meal 1
lean protein - 3oz beef/turkey combination
yams - 4oz
veggies steamed or raw - 2 cups
organic butter on yam -

30 minute walk after breakfast outside. Belly breathing, meditative walk.

meal 2,3,4
whey/egg protein mix 30 grams plus small amount unflavored yogurt
1 raw organic egg - eggglands / or 4 or 5 egg whites
1/3 cup barely, rice or oat bran
raw vegetable, 1/2 cup serving, munch after shake
1 tsp EVO

meal 5
8-10 oz lean protein
spinach salad
1/2 cup presaoked legummes

Want you to look into chia seeds, soaked, to add to shakes as well.

20-30 minute walk after dinner outside

bed by 10 pm or bed relaxation 20 minutes

Sunlight 30-60 min a day, before 10am, after 4pm
Samme 600 BID
coenzyme q 10 200 mgs TID
esterC - 500 mgs each meal, 2-4 grams per day
vitamin E 800 ius BID plus selenium methionate
multivitamin/mineral before breakfast/dinner
super digestive enzyme - 1 each meal
gabba/taurine/magnesium/theanine - 500/500/200/200 (at night) TID
PC - 800 mgs TID with meals or use inositol plus choline, 500mgs each, 2x

Apple cider - would rather see you using citrate plus B5
methlyl cobalamin 5000 mcgs BID
folic acid 800 mgs BID
zinc lozengers 30 mgs BID
b coenyzme subligual TID ..if this P5P??
TMG 1000 mgs BID x 2
probiotic 50 bilion before bed Bifidolpholic - natren trinity
calcium 250 mgs TID
iron chelated 25 mgs BID (skip one out of 4 weeks to avoid toxicity)


Posted by: hardasnails1973

I will add those changes
b-5 500 mgs breakfast and dinner (forgot that)
b-6 p5p subligual 50 mgs BID -could too much of this cause homocysteine to divert to CBS vs methione pathway?

What are some things that cause homocysteine to divert to CBS vs methione pathway?

Where do I get citrate? I use magnesium citrate is that the same. I know what you mean to increase kreb cycle intermediates by increasing Coenzyme A. Does the apple cider provide the acetyl group for TCA cycle? i am also using ALCAR at 500mgs tid and it is really helping with memorr.

Will the samme and TMG help to increase serotonin turnover AKA raise 5hiaa on urine test since mine does not even measure that is what my main problem is serotonin metabolism is like non existent.

So how much TMG 1000 mgs 4 times a day or 2000 mgs x 2 ?

Selenium in multivitamine

why sunlight before 10 and 4 pm ? i thought you want it to be at strongest around 12-3, but person with weak adrenals might not be good idea huh?


Posted by: Trouble

>b-5 500 mgs breakfast and dinner (forgot that)

Okay. Some folks don't convert the commercial form of B6 to the active form of P5P.


>What are some things that cause homocysteine to divert to CBS vs methione pathway?

Too much sulfate or sulfide (esp of you have a sufite oxidase deficiency)
Not enough molybdenum.
Selenium is an enzyme active site center metal in some of the steps in the methylation and transulfuration pathways.
> I use magnesium citrate is that the same. I know what you mean to increase kreb cycle intermediates by increasing Coenzyme A.

Then you don't need it.

Does the apple cider provide the acetyl group for TCA cycle?

Not so much as it provides acetate for production of glutamate. I wonder...would you be willing to try AKG? It sucks up excess ammonia..what did your metamatrix test show wrt ammonia?

> i am also using ALCAR at 500mgs tid and it is really helping with memorr.

Yeah, thats carnitine and acetyl transfer, used in many reactions. Acetyl function enhances transport and uptake of carnitine into mito.

>Will the samme and TMG help to increase serotonin turnover AKA raise 5hiaa on urine test since mine does not even measure that is what my main problem is serotonin metabolism is like non existent.

Yes sir. But more importantly, it also provides methylation support in liver. Its also acts as an important liver nuclear receptor conditioner for gut.

So how much TMG 1000 mgs 4 times a day or 2000 mgs x 2 ?

1g twice per day, just before meals.

>Selenium in multivitamine

Yes, but how much? 20-60mcg isn't enough, you have a shortage. Try adding a 200 mcg dose just a couple times per week. That will keep it from building up to excess, but boost your levels.

I am unsure of you using Fe. Its where the iron is, not that you don't have any...ferritin is the problem (iron transport). Thats sulfate driven, and thats yet another reason to goose up the transulfuration pathway.

>why sunlight before 10 and 4 pm ? i thought you want it to be at strongest around 12-3, but person with weak adrenals might not be good idea

Its called cancer risk reduction. Sunlight is good, prudent use of it is even better.

You don't need hours, just 20 min min, 45 min is better, every day or so.

Daily sunlight regulates carbohydrate metabolism and helps reset melatonin and vitamin D3 synthesis. That directly influences dopamine and serotonin.

Make sense?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Yes i am following you completely understanding every thing what you are telling and have taught me plain as english and have been for past 6-8 months

i am really begining to understand methylation and how if you are low you are basically screwed and possible headed for cancer and mutated DNA, other not so pleasant things..

As soon as i spoted sufite oxidase deficiency i knew molydenum was next to follow.

metametrix should normal ammonia mid range but that was one of the only reading in the mid normal range why i have been keeping protein levels low just in case. AkG if i am not mistaken is a good way to increase glutamine levels with out taking glutamine. And it was recommended on my metametrix test due to low citrate levels. But only i had a hard time finding just akg by itself because it is usually attached to some thing else.

Been doing alot of reseach and found alot of people that are undermethylated have underactive thyroids. is this just coincidence or is there something more i need to dig deeper about to justify. I found a few study linked to hypomethylation but nothing supported by nothing concrete.
One thing i found and also you pointed out in another post was about how underactive thyroid alters b-2 metabolism and causes increase in CBS pathway.

So indirectly hypothyroidism could possible deactivate the methione synthase by actually lower the Igf-1 that drives it?

Which could make alot of sense since my b-2 levels are low despite taking good amount of b-2 intake and my hypothesis is that zinc falls into this same category as well, just have not been able to prove it YET
I love to find that article about how zinc serum levels are altered in hypothyroidism and not untill the thyroid is optimal will they begin to normalize

molydenium i am at 150 mcgs a day from multivitamin that should cover basis I hope


taking 200 mgs selenium methioine from multi vitamin so i got that covered .
Since being vitamin E deficienct could this have an affect on metabolism of the selenium even though i have plenty of it in my cells?


Posted by: Trouble

Custom Nutrition Warehouse.

100 g, 6 bucks.

Pubmed Search: Alpha ketoglutaric acid and excitotoxicty.

(ignore this wernickes syndrome, we're interested in the AKG shunt fuckup that causes ammonia build up and with it, build up glutmate and lack of glutathione and GABA.

(see what happens when you feed it to gut: instant rebuilding of depleted GABA stores in gut mucosal cells: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=7609280)


BINGO! AGK is an ammonia absorber--> reduces localized excitotoxicity in brain, liver, pancreas and gut from excess NMDA and glutamate buildup from nitrogen cycling issues in liver.

Role of mitochondrial dysfunction and oxidative stress in the pathogenesis of selective neuronal loss in Wernicke's encephalopathy.

Desjardins P, Butterworth RF. Mol Neurobiol. 2005;31(1-3):17-25.

Thiamine deficiency results in Wernicke's encephalopathy and is commonly encountered in chronic alcoholism, gastrointestinal diseases, and HIV AIDS. The earliest metabolic consequence of thiamine deficiency is a selective loss in activity of the thiamine diphosphate-dependent enzyme alpha-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase (alpha-KGDH), a rate-limiting tricarboxylic acid cycle enzyme. Thiamine deficiency is characterized neuropathologically by selective neuronal cell death in the thalamus, pons, and cerebellum. The cause of this region-selective neuronal loss is unknown, but mechanisms involving cellular energy failure, focal lactic acidosis, and NMDA receptor-mediated excitotoxicity have classically been implicated. More recently, evidence supports a role for oxidative stress. Evidence includes increased endothelial nitric oxide synthase, nitrotyrosine deposition, microglial activation, and lipid peroxidation. Reactive oxygen species production results in decreased expression of astrocytic glutamate transporters and decreased activities of alpha-KGDH, resulting in an amplification of cell death mechanisms in thiamine deficiency.

Oh, that answers your question on B2.

On zinc, its another enzyme active site metal.

GABA directly signals for hGH and IGF-1.

Answer on Se and vit E: yes, but only if Se is being removed ...or its being tied up by excess Hg and Pb ( mercury and lead).

Hypothyroidism: thyroid receptor gene regulators are selenium, gluthathione, zinc and methionine. Hypomethylation results in a downregulation of thyroid receptor. Excess bile and low cholesterol results in lack of adequate thyroid hormone AND reduced T4--> T3 activity

But its that blockade of TCA that really screws with energy metabolism for maintaining body temperature.

See how it fits together rather neatly? (at least it sounds good, LOL)


Posted by: Trouble

Taruine and magnesium shortages are implicated in reactive hypoglycemia.

AKG and insulin release in pancreatic islet beta cells.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12575909


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Bingo!!
Hypothyroidism: thyroid receptor gene regulators are selenium, gluthathione, zinc and methionine. Hypomethylation results in a downregulation of thyroid receptor. Excess bile and low cholesterol results in lack of adequate thyroid hormone AND reduced T4--> T3 activity

No fucken wonder thyroid is not fucken working I only have half of the receptors available, but working on correcting that

That statement above just describe me to the T. Light bulb went on !! I am now starting to see that when I have low levels of cholesterol, ldl, on my blood work its not because they are low but rather they are being stored by the liver and are building up instead of being released. And I bet if I have a bile acids test ran it probably would be low normal as well indicating the same. Choline I am low on that has been verified by several tests directly and indirectly and this would definetly affect liver folate levels as well plus methylation.


So the AKG will help regulate insulin secretions which i could definitely use.

Could having lower then normal insulin levels also raise a persons adrenaline levels which is commonly seen on a typical bodybuilding diet? Now if we couple that with caffine, ephederine plus over training, stress ful lifestyle then we are one a way path for self destruction.


I do not have taurine deficency actually have an excess because of homocystein being diverted to CBS pathway signaling undermethylation.
Mercury is definetly been rule out and I have not had tuna in ages. Urine test with DMPS showed little elevation nothing drastic, same way with hair analyisis.

Personally what fuck me up was my life style that ran on pure adrenaline fueled by caffine and ephederine low carb dieting and no cardio, high demanding job that involved extreme multitasking, plus an aggressive girlfreind at the time did not help. And eventually i created an imbalance between excitory and inhiboratory neurotransmitters. Excessive dopamine , adrenaline, glutamate and literally depleted my serotonin/gaba/acetylcholine levels where it started to affect the liver/thyroid/gut imbalance.

Yes it does fit in nicely
i am starting to see how your main emphasis is shutting down the excitory neurotransmitters and replenishing the inhibitory ones through lifestyle changes (mediation, walks, sunlight,balanced eating, supplementation) as well as addressing the brain/ liver/gut imbalances and improving regulating methylation/transulfation/cbs pathways which doing so brings the body back to balance as a whole rather then just treating one thing at a time like the traditional dr will do. Its absolutely brillant concept much like the traditional chinese medicine which treats the entire body rather then one area. When i look at what you have emphasis you do run along the same meridians as much of the chinese medicine.


Posted by: Trouble

No, you suppress cholesterol production, through the first step in HMG-CoA hydrodylation by a specific P450 (we've discussed this already). You are also low in bile because bile recovery was eventually inhibited. You make it, but at the expense of cholesterol that is used for making steroids, including thyroid hormone, vitamins A,D, and K. Remember, you tried to drive bodyfat into the ground.

Low blood sugar, not low insulin (these are connected events) will induce epinephrine release, yes.

Not excess dopamine; I think that got depleted eventually as well, through lack of proper polyamine production/absorption in the gut. I could be wrong.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

You mentioned rice bran for the drink does it have be certain kind like stabilized granules or can it be just like say NOW bran.


Posted by: Trouble

Now Foods brand rice bran is stabilized. The side of the package specifically makes this claim. Vitanet website carries it and also the Now Foods Oat Bran, at very reasonable prices. I stocked up. Their shipping is very reasonable as well.

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Vitanet. They are simply a supplier that carried the brans that I recommend at reasonable cost (couple bucks per package 20 and 14 oz, respectively).


Posted by: hardasnails1973

There is product called from metagenics that is almost the same exact thing which you gave me the recipe for and its like 40 bucks 15 servings. Since working out more often my body is craving salt like crazy. I have been adding like a 1 tsp of seasalt to my water during my workouts to keep me hydrated. It was not untill I started the salt I notice that I felt more blood rush to the muscle and longer pumps. Before adding the salt to work outs I had no pump no nothing and just felt flat and weak, but now I am much stronger.

One day went to the shore to relax biggest mistake. I was so light headed ,constipated for 3 days later and all i wanted was seasalt. After increasing salt intake I finaly had bowel moment after 3 days. Could this be indicating that I tend need more salt then I am normally take in even though i do not have addisons so to speak, but as long as I can remember dogs just loved to come up and lick me for no reason at all and would not stop. i read this is indication of person that loses salt easily. Is this true or just an old wise tale


Posted by: Trouble

Adding a little salt to water has been shown to be helpful for autonomic syndrome - postural hypotension (low blood pressure on changing position from laying to standing). Sodium wasting and potassium retention maybe an issue in hypotension.

Did you sweat a lot at the seashore? Dhydration? Too much sun? Remember, it requires a lot of glutathione to counter the effects of UV oxidation in skin. I used to sweat and form crystalline salts on my scalp during heavy manual labor in the summer. A very odd side effect of a similar problem with excessive salt loss. Since I don't sweat much, the salts must have become supersaturated to form these crystals.

No idea on the dog licking theory.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Trouble,does TMG break down into glycine because if it does there is no sense getting glycine, but glycine reallly does calm me down for some reason.


Posted by: Trouble

No, you can take glycine, in small doses. Glycine is structurally similar to gamma-aminobutyric acid; it also has ability to inhibit neurotransmitter signals in the central nervous system (spinal chord). It also is excitatory: promotes hyperexcitability elsewhere. This behaviour occurs at the (NMDA) glutaminergic receptors which are excitatory - in the gut, pancreas and liver/gallbladder.

TMG is eventually metabolized to glycine, yes, but first to DMG, and so it serves other roles in physiological function as well.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

TRouble this is the best I have been about 2 years, but something just hit me like a ton of bricks. Since I have been taking zinc subliqually and b-6 and still not correcting the deficiency. I did some research and the name pyroluria kept popping up even my EFA red blood cell test noted possible schizophenia and people with pyroluria also have low arachondic acid which i found interesting. One of the biggest things that brought this to attention was that I was born sensitive to loud noise and was taken to severe drs and never given an explanation for it. DO you think I should probe further and seek testing since it is so cheap. Also pyroluria is also associated with aspergners as well which I found fascinating...

I found this study but fucken computer is screwing up
It basically stated that schizophrenic people have a higher level of cell membrane break down and phospholipase A2 in there serums causing altered omega 6 and 3 in blood


Posted by: Trouble

Are you using P5P or B6. Some people do not convert the cheap commercial form of B6 to the active form.

You ARE being treated with the standard therapy for pyrrole disease, HAN. Its B6 or P5P and zinc.

Testing is..controversial, there are at least 3 different methods, including the Mauve test you are thinking of. I would keep with your current regimine (seeing that it is working) and proceed on the basis of how you feel and perform, rather than worrying about bases we already have covered.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

i am using p5p from source naturals its 25 mgs sublingual I still not have no dream recall I am using 50 mgs p5p 3 times a day with everything else. If one runs out of p5p for a few days could you actually go in relapse that quick ? I ran out for 3 days and It felt like some one pulled rug from under me and all other varaible the same. So with current regimen we should be able to reduce the phospholipase a2 from releasing EFA from membranes as well ?


Posted by: Trouble

P5P formula must contain vitamin B2 as well. If it doesn't, find B2 and add it (its cheap). P5P should be 100mg per day. Not sure if 150mg is needed.

I have found it possible to go for longer periods without it but I don't have your symptoms.

HAN, I know phospholipase A2 is present in cobra venom (Naya Naya venom). I have no idea of its presence or nor regulation in human tissue. I used it for release of membrane bound proteins from beef heart and rat liver mitochondria in large protein preps years ago. You got me stumped.

EFA moves in an out of membranes, HAN. You should worry about getting enough, you can take up to 10 grams per day if you feel you are very short in absorption efficiency.


Posted by: boilermaker

I suggest psychiatry.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/con...tract/54/5/487

This explains it nicely. And boil maker I am tired of people telling me this shit is all in my head and it is not. Been to 3 clinical psychotriasts and said I had no under lying issues and it is biological linked. I basically self introduced through life style and more so dietary imbalances. Basically i have severe underactive thyroid which is clogging things up so to speak and was never addressed with in the first place by traditional drs. Intresting thing I also just found out was I had a freind that has gone to top CFS clinic in the USA and they told him all of those lab results from quest and lab corp are way off from where they should be especially for the endocrine system. The drs I work with narrow ranges down any deviation from the mid range 25% either way it will flag and they will investigate. This is how alot of my problems were caught and are being addressed. Given what I have been through I have made major leaps and bounds with out seeing a shrink. But thanks for advice


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Let this be a lesson to be learned that ketogenic type diets and dietary/ supplement/mineral imbalances can really alters one neurological pathways as well deplete ones liver glyocegen with out you even knowing it even when blood sugar is prefectly fine while resting. Without proper lifestlye/dietary modification excessive excitory transmitters with out proper balance of inhibitory ones will reak havoc on ones Hypothalmus pituatary axis leads to cascade of detrimental events ultimately affecting every organ system leaving the drs puzzled and just treating each symptom rather then initial cause.

I just saw on the news where 25-30% of the adult population is having impaired sleep so maybe the medical community will wake the fuck up and start addressing stress modification and sleep hygiene with out advertising it in a pill. Some day I feel like I am in movie like demolitioin man or blade runner where society is being brained wash by manpulative authoirty such as our drug companys. Shit when I was a kid. I saw gobots and transformers on commericial and i want one now childer growing up "mommy mommy I can not sleep can you get me some Lunestra" WTF is our society coming too


Posted by: Trouble

Sorry HAN, but that citation didn't give me any indication of why *you*, who deosn't have schizoprhenia, whould have unusual phospholipase turnover in membranes - I don't see a connection. Its doesn't release EFAs anyway, it releases phospholipids, which is why its used in certain membrane purificiation protocols.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Thanks for clarifying that up but i have been always been under the impression that increases in Phospholipase A2 (PLA2) activity resulted in premature uncoupling of the EFAs from phospholipids in the cell membrane and therefore could result in low arachondic acid as indicated on my EFA test.


Posted by: Trouble

Excess plasma glucose participates in an NADPH catalyzed attack on hemoglobin in red blood cells, resulting in erythrocyte membrane peroxidation damage. This releases free iron. The oxidized iron then attacks other membrane components nearby, and is thought to be the catalyst for release of prostaglandins temp stored in membranes - resulting in a rise in plasma concentrations of inflammatory agents (prostaglandins, including arachidonic acid).

THis is the opposite of what you describing in a low arachidonic acid condition, in which the natural in vivo (in-place) biosythesis of arachidonic acid is hindered by blockade of either enzyme action or gene expression.

EFAs aren't "coupled" to anything in membranes but receptors, and once bound, they generally elicit an immediate response from activated receptors.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Ok now i understand that biosythesis of arachidonic acid is hindered by blockade of either enzyme action or gene expression Ie excessive marine oils intake/ altered metabolism which was indicated already suppressing the delta-5-desaturase as well as lack of insulin. I really did not take alot of fish oils max may be 1-2 tsp per day, but due to hypometabolism I could not metabolise them efficiently and over time they were building up. Does this sound plausible (been watching too much discoery channel and "Myth Busters" )


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Since these so called drs had me on such a low carb high fat diet for so long and my blood work looks like that of a person with suppressed insulin levels IE low cholesterol, triglycerides,LDL. I can only speculate that during when I was driving my body fat into the ground my insulin levels were probably low and also my glucagon was elevated. The elevation of glucagon would literally deplete my muscle and liver glyogen causing suppression in t-4 to t-3 converstion and increasing RT3 (commonly assocaited with starvation), then for some reason when I switched back to eating "normal" my body never shifted back by increasing serum t-3 and got stuck in Rt3 mood. First thing evident on my blood test were elevated resting glucose levels, but drs nevered bothered said "oh your just alittle high" do not worry about it.

Do you think once I get my liver glycogen replenished that my body will shift out of starvation mood and thyroid will recover? I have been using the rice bran, but at 1/2 cup it only gives me 16 grams of carbs. From what i gather swtiching to a more traidtional diet is what may be necessary to reset my thyroid if that is possiible. i read bigandy's thread on thyroif recovery and it was suggested that higher carbs are necessary vs lower carbs in order for thyroid to recovery. i have an idea I may be too far gone for it to recover on its own.


Posted by: Trouble

Patience. Add more carbs if you wish. I would add slow release carbs. I have only seen use of additional *calorie intake* be used during cutting to avoid thyroid shut down. For recovery? Liver has to recover first. Make sure you are getting adequate Kreb cycle intermediates - remember, they are supposed to be part of your recovery plan.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

kreb cycle is well covered with citrates, AKG, ect. Liver beleive it or not seem to be doing well. I can feel my immune system kicking back on. Tongue coating is completely gone. I think the lithium orotate is helping with increasing my immune system by increasing white blood cell counts which are back in the normal range where they belong. So there has been alot of cellular and immune prgression. i eat nothing but low glycemic non gluten carbs and no fruit keeping fats normal Still can not handle alot of protein it tends to be like a brick in my stomach despite enzymes and stress reduction.
running a 40/30/30 diet c/p/f


Posted by: hardasnails1973

TRouble when dealing with excessive lipid perioxadtion it is the oils that we need to be concern with and not the whole seeds and nuts, nut butters correct? I see your reasoning for olive oil since it reduces oxidative stress in the body.


Posted by: Trouble

In excessive lipid peroxidation, is the source of the oxidation and the lack of defense mechanisms that are of primary concern.

When you are considering membrane structure-function, then you consider the types of fatty acids that comprise the phospholipid makeup of membranes. The composition is known to be tissue specific; dietary shift in that composition by excess of certain types of fats is affected (brought about) by change in diet and slow turover (attrition) of cellular membranes.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

TRouble,
If one lacks proper bile acids for fat emulsfication but enough lipases What happens to the fat that is not emulsifed does it still get carried into the liver where it even though it not properly digested leading to oxidation and build up in liver. I always wondered this


Posted by: hardasnails1973

SO basically with out bile salts (oxbile) you are not absorbing fats properly and would the effects of this be rancid fats and putrification.


Posted by: Trouble

That is an incorrect assumption. Excessive lipid peroxidation is a direct result of a lack of protective enzyme function that cycles glutathione between its oxidized and reduced state. Its the mop up mechanism to control free radical attack on membrane lipids.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Thanks for clarifiying that for me. Let me rephrase the question. What happens to fats ingested if emulsification can not take place due to inadaquet bile salts?

Thanks


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Progress has been very good sleep patterns are completely normal, digestion is really improving and life getting back to normal again. I been digging around and could not put my finger on things but now things are starting to make sense of what trouble was trying to say about genetic polymorphism is the MTHF gene leading to hypomethylation and homocysteine, as being divert via the betaine pathway vs the folate pathway. as well as the cysteine pathyway. I have found research showing that low folate levels affect choline depreviation. I have found only article showing that choline deficeincy ends up in low serum trigylcerides, VLDL, and serum cholesterol. All of which I have. So if my thinking is correct being deficeint in choline (via WBC choline as well as indirect methods via organic acids and amino acid testing) but having sufficient RBC folate would lead to a functional folic acid deficiency because the folate acid would not be methylated and there for not in its bioavailable for as 5- MTHF which would intiate the methioine synthase pathway. Right now I am using same at 400 mgs 2 times a day to feed the homocystein pathways as well as TMG 2000 mgs x 2 time a day to help increase methylation which is definetly defiecinct (3.9 homocystein level 5.4 - 13) which indicates major methylation defieincy. Found research articles showing choline defieincy causes hypomethylation in rats possbile because it effects the methylation of b-12, folic acid to active form is only reason I could possible think of. I probably been born this way because my cholesterol has never been above 150 all my life and has been as low as 110 and drs were telling me that was excellent and healthy, but how was I know it wasn't and just put my faith in drs. Dr I am working with now is excellent and we was amazed of how I understood. We are working on stabilizing endocrine system. i beleive through getting methylation pathways opened up properly will help flush out the toxins and fats from my liver so glycogen replenishment can be restored. Through information I provided dr was coming up with theory a had subclinical fatty liver which was been building up over the years through life style choices finally it symptoms were starting to show indirectly. I told him i had learned majority of this information from a wonderful lady that devotes her time to helping people with simlar problems before they get to point where they become ill.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

trouble by re estabilishing the methylation pathway serotonin metabolism and binding will be increase WHOO HOOO, but will reestablishing this pathway also possible increase thyroid as well and possible increase glycogen retention?

Research I have found shows that hypothyroidism drives serotonin, but does serotonin help to drive the thyroid. i can not find any clinical data backing this up. Dr marianco at mesomorphsis suggested that one drives the other, but i can not find any evidence of this.

i found an incredible article expressing DNA genome alterations and reprocussions. it really help me to understand genetic mutations in methylation. It did not know how detrimental it could be in possible underlying of so many diseases. I may persue career in ND been seriously concidering it never too late right ?

Thanks


Posted by: Trouble

Pubmed search terms: serotonin and thyroid (687 citations found).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=9033822

^^ 5-HT receptors are involved in activation and release of thyroxine via the pituitary.

T3 augmentation of SSRI resistant depression. J Affect Disord. 2006 Apr;91(2-3):211-5.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16483669

Note that T3 is being used in SSRI-resistant, euthyroid chronic non-psychotic major depression.

This is an upstream effect of sertonin promoting thyroxine production.

Methylation--> thyroxine ---> insulin mediated glucose uptake and storage ---> glycogen retention IF a normocaloric or hyper caloric intake is maintained. You have to improve gut uptake, improve insulin output and normalize liver function, which takes time.

Are you using inositol (an important second messenger)?

Methylation --> improved production of serotonin precursors in liver (methyl transferases) ---> decreased depression, potential upregulation of 5 HT receptors, ---> increased sertonin--> improved TRH/TSH --> improved thyroxine production and receptor upregulation ----> improved energy efficiency

Since you seem to have sufficient interest and zeal, you might consider pursuing an ND - once you understand the costs (as high as obtaining an MD) and the limitations of patient demand. NDs are far less sought out than MDs, a result of conservative popular mentality regarding disease and its treatment). Typically, patients seek ND consultation *after* standard treatment by MDs has failed to address patient symptoms/concerns.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

yes i am taking inositol 500 mgs 3 times a day. I did discover that excessive niacinaminde could possible put and extra strain on methyl donors. For some reason Dr kane had me taking 500 mgs for some unknown reason. Right now everything is balanced and supplementing according to my WBC tests if there is any extra that was indicated. Choline b-5, zinc, coenzyme q 10, vitamin E, b-2 where major deficeincy indicated by WBC testing. I been trying to get caloires in but for some reason I have little appetite despite exerciseing cardio ect.

Could this have something to do with low serotonin levels for no desire to eat.? I found pfferiers chart of undermethylation symptoms and I fit just about every one.

Following same protocol as you suggested long time ago
gaba, mg, zinc, b-6, inositol, lecthithen for choline, taurine, theanine,

using 200 mgs x 2 times a day samme to feed the homocysteine and TMG, folonic acid, methyl cobalin to resynthesis to methione using 100 mgs p5p. Sleep has been best in 3 years FINALY

would increasing to 400 mgs samme 2 times day be more optimal in my condition since I have low homocystein levels to begin with.


Posted by: Trouble

More likely CCK is low due to rapid gastric dumping after meals. You're very much like the classic ectomorphy model.

Per the sam-e: try 400 mg in the morning, and 200 mgs in the afternoon, first.

You're getting quite a bit of methylation equivalents as it is. Moderation is our goal..once under-supply condition is corrected. You're how far along in correction? About 6 months?? Easy does it.

Are you using selenium in a multivitamin or as a chelate?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

selenium methione as supplement. Actually I felt better with in 3 days of taking TMG. better focus, bowel moments, sleep patterns are back to normal. Body is waking up with sun light no alarm clock needed. Appetite is slowly increasing, not as bloated with meals and stomach is getting leaner by the day, breathing is alot better too much deeper, feel more calm inwardly

Could have I had a folic acid defiency indirectly due to fact that it was not getting methylated since i was lacking cofactors hence elevated serum folate levels in the blood stream where accumulating not getting converted to active form? Since I have slight neutropenia and leukopenia ? similar to a defect in the 5-MTHFR enzyme


Posted by: Trouble

Yes you could, but simple blood work can answer the question definitively.

You're making so many positive gains in health, I would be careful about how much tweeking you do..remember, you are building up cellular response at the gene level now, as cells continue to turn over in liver, but and CNS under the more healthy lifestyle change environment. Plus, you will be building up short term cellular reserves in some cofactors and coenzymes, and substrates. That means you (waggling hand) move back and forth between excess and deficit of methylation factors and sulfur moieties within these interconnected biosynthetic pathways.

If you ask your ND, he would agree. As long as you are making steady improvement, caution should be employed in making continuous tweeks.

The leukopenia and neutropenia will respond as your fatty liver condition resolves (reason I asked about the inositol) and certain fats cease to repress key P450 enzymes that play a role in white blood cell production.

That make sense?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Yes it does make complete sense and if at anytime I would not understand I would research it to make sure I would. So ihypothetically if a person is undermethylated they would have a greater chance of having a sub clincal fatty liver which would possible alter folate and b12 metabolism because of defect in the methione synthase and MTHFR enzymes and could possible divert to CBS and the choline/TMG pathways (elevated sarcosine on urine test) as altertive means to lower the homocysteine levels. By diverting to the CBS pathway this would cause DNA hypomethylation resulting in lower homocystein levels which are common with mercury and autism cases, cancer. So by athetes putting great stresses on our bodies as well as the fast paced lifestyles of today, hidden enviromental toxins we are taxing our cellular reserves of nutrients which leading us down a path of silient cellular destruction with us not even knowing it before it is too late.

This whole food diet contains a shit load of phytates and oxalates. I was eating alot of seeds and nuts to get my good fats from, but I did not know that could be possiblem binding my minerals. I stopped storing my food in plastic containers and use glass now due to fact that xylene is xenoestrogen found in plastic containers, and air we breath. I never use the microwave and heat food up on the stove. You may call me an extremist but I am doing what ever changes in my life to get healthier and something seems to be make a huge change in past 3-4 weeks.

My ND at first cost me 1000 bucks for 2 hours of his time and 1 organic acids test by metametrix. When test came back he just went with protocol with what they recommended. That session being 2 hours costs me another 300 bucks. I then mention adrenal fatigue/ hypothyroidism and his opinons on it. Another 300 bucks later Next session he came to wonderful conclusion of adrenal fatigue( smacking my self in the head), but did not offer a salvia cortisol test and when I started to ask complex questions about methyation and homocysteine, Samm-e he would say I would have to research that and it would cost money and time. When all said and done you looking about 30 grand and it got me no where other then be called a hypochondriac to even drs wanted to lock me up in mental institution. From our conversations i have made more progress then ever, by you providing vital clues and me digging further to comprehend them. Yes my freinds call me a nerd, but unlike other to circum this I be damned to give up and go on living like a cripple or even ending my life when its just beginning. I was never a quiter and not going to start being one now.

What liver pathways detoxifies rt3, dhea, and other hormones. Is methylation the main one for this or sulfuration, glucuitation?

Parents told me I was snoring for first time in almost 3 years !!


Posted by: Trouble

Selenium and zinc are the primary modulators of iron and mercury (and other metals) toxicity. When the absorption mechanisms fail and dietary deficiency has contributed to dysfunction of the important balances within the organic sulfur driven pathways in liver, the changes in key sulfur-bearing compounds that *control* important points of energy flow (via chemical messenger dialog) between gut, liver, brain, muscles and fat storage results in compromised function of an important class of enzymes central to much of my research interests for 30 years; cytochrome P450s. We now know that Phase I and II detox reactions in liver either change solubility of toxins, or they the toxins are chemically altered with a 'handle' (sulfonation, glucuronation), then bound to shuttle proteins and excreted into the intestines for disposal.

For you, the next step in lifestyle modulation must come in quieting the every busy and result-driven mind, through meditation, belly breathing, mindless walking (just opening up senses to your surroundings, giving mind a break and soaking up sunlight for much needed vitamin D synthesis), sensible rest..and one more item. The deliberate cultivation of the spiritual side of your life.

For a long time now, you have been the hamster running on the wheel, always trying to move forward towards better health. Now you are out of that cage, and making very nice progress on the physical front, and some on the emotional front. You need not run anymore; you can afford a more measured and thoughtful pace. Before you go into this next phase of life, an embark on whatever career path you choose, you should prepare yourself to cope with the stresses that will accompany this change.

Learn to guide the flow of your stress from mind, down through the portals of the body, disposing of negative stress while internalizing positive stress, just as your liver does, in removing toxins and retaining and recycling important mineral components.

The pattern of your writing will change. By this, we will know that hidden places are healing as well.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Yes your analogy of the hamster is a perfect example of what the last 3 years have been like. For once in my life i do not feel uptight or on edge, but rather calm and at peace with my self. I do not worry like I used to and even though I want to help people i think with my head first rather then my heart. In the past I was willing to jeopardize my well being to help some one I did not even know, but now I examine the situation and see if it is really worth the effort. I put my self in some dangerous situations trying to help people because I was just looking for exceptence from people and thinking doing the right thing I always some how end up being the one that was hurt. Since we are on the route to recovery I must think before I act and examine the whole picture be for assume the responsibility. As for clearing out the fatty liver it will take time I am sure. The liver has to recycle and cells will shed over next several months.

I have raised the sam-e to 400 and 200 per day
tmg is at 1000 mgs 3 times a day
folinic acid is 800 mcgs x 2 times a day
methycolbalin 5000 mcgs daily
inosital 500 mgs 3 times with the gaba, mag, mixture
Bcass 5 grams 3 times a day mainly before and after training.
50 mgs zinc methione,


You mention about choline and I have soy lecithin granules. would 1-2 TBSP 3 times a day be a moderate amount? Since I am choline defieicnt based on lab testing or would it be better to get just plain choline powder or by correcting methylation the liver should start producing it on its own?

Since trying to recovery from semi fatty liver. Would it be adviible to have a lower fat intake say 15-20% vs 30% of dietary intake to help take stress off the liver for a bit and help it recovery.

Thanks


Posted by: Trouble

Fat intake should be between 20-30%,, I would vary it within that range, because we need some to drive steroid production.

Quote:
You mention about choline and I have soy lecithin granules. would 1-2 TBSP 3 times a day be a moderate amount? Since I am choline deficient based on lab testing or would it be better to get just plain choline powder or by correcting methylation the liver should start producing it on its own?
Do not use lecithin. Use choline citrate (BN). Use only 200-250 mg per day. No more than that. The lecithin will cause you to produce too much acetylcholine, which is counter productive here.

Down the road, when your metabolism and body mass have stabilized and your body fat is at an acceptable 8-12 percent, then you can add a little lecithin to your diet. Its really just purified cell membranes from plants. You're getting the inositol and choline from other sources (supplemented, and from eggs, respectively). I would rather you get your PC and PI directly from plant matter anyway.

Plan on it taking about 3-4 yrs to recycle the liver; about 4-5 to completely reverse the disease state at the gene encryption and expression level. About that long to make changes in the brain, thyroid, adrenals, and kidneys, as well. GI should be back to near normal within 1-3 yrs. Pancreas in about 3 yrs as well. Muscle, however, is relatively responsive and normal metabolic (energy) competence should be back to near normal within a year or so.

Settle in for the long haul. Once you have stabilized symptoms, you will need to maintain this approach for a while, or you will slide backwards again, because you aren't producing the enzymes that make up for the deficit, nor do you have solid GI and liver function yet.

I missed your post, sorry for being tardy replying.

What does your ND say about all of this?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

My MD is stiil baffled by the fact that something is metabolically blocking my metabolism and zinc absorption. It was funny him and I thought a minutes and both came up with 2 possibilities alcohol or estrogen. I notified him that on all my organic acids tests I had been excreting large amounts of xylene which was a xenoestrogen and that my last estrodial reading was 30 with low free and total testosterone (200 ng/dl). So we are going to check on testosterone (free and total), estrodial, dhea-s, free t-3 in another week to see where we were at. I was taken 10% testocreme with an antiestrogen supplement (dim/c d glucurate) and feeling good. He told me to reduce all antiestrogens so we can get an accurate reading with out them. With in a week of stoppig the antestrogen i started to get depressed and fat gain, exercise intolerance, bloating, constipation, joint pains despite all other variables being the same. i told him what was going on and this is what he anticpated and is actually a good sign, but now I have to hold out till I get test results back. He agrees with opening up the liver pathways with proper detoxification with aid the process of undermethlyation which he believes is not do to mercury toxciity. I politely asked could possibly the metabolic pathways being depletes by hidden estrogen dominace impairing zinc absorption and he agreed. I dug around and found that excessie estrogen load can cause hypomethylation of DNA and excess lipid perioxidation as well as suppress t4 to t3 conversion. I did tell him that I was using armidex for the contest at 1 mg a day for 6 weeks with fina aplex and winstrol then stopped the steroids and continues on the armidex at 1mg a day for another 5 weeks and just stopped cold turkey and did not taper. About 2 weeks later I had bad joint pain, depression, bloating, muscle atrophy and fat gain, anxiety, sleep problems, thats when I had the suishi. In his best medical opionion I had a nasty estrogen rebound that ended up suppresses immune system, lower testosterone, and suppressing thyroid, leading evenutally into adrenal fatigue. I told him after starting taking ZMA and testosterone was coming right back up with puzzled the endocronologist with in 3 weeks went from 40 to 300. Once test are back we are having a more clinical idea of where we stand. For now he agrees with 100% supporting the liver pathways as currently doing. i am the first case that he has ever seen like this that basically he beleives if proper testing was done at the beginning alot of this could have be curtailed and properly addressed. As you previously mentioned excess insulin was obviously a factor with that amount of rice i had consumed with the suishi, but if there was also an estrogen factor involved then it was a double whammy. Could it be possibe excessive estrogen could impair the absorption of zinc imparing the methione synthase enzyme and the alternative pathways (choline/betaine) / CBS be used as back up resulting increased cellular gluthione production?


Posted by: Trouble

The excess xylene is puzzling. Did you have excessive exposure to solvents (hobbies, work)??

Of course, if Phase I and II detox pathways in the liver weren't working, its possible that phenolic acids bioaccumulated and are metabolized to xylene which is then excreted by glucarate action in both Phase I and II detox reactions in liver.

I don't the answer to your question on zinc and estrogen. I haven't heard of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a correlation.

I think you had a problem with phytates in your diet and it was stripping out zinc. I believe the imbalance between test and estrogen lies in the long chain fatty acid activation of P450s in liver that were abnormally regulated (upregulated expression), resulting in unusual conversion of test to estrogen.

That bleedout of these fatty acids (from your beloved coconut products, a potential source of the long chain fats in question, or that unusual elevation in omega fatty acids) will take time. You should continue to use the antiestrogens.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Well could the excessive estrogen from testosterone conversion over activated the aromatize which was zinc driven. Xylene also comes can be a result of heated plastics in microwave which I lived out of at work for years. but no longer do now Just recently i put all my food in glass dishes verse storing them in plastic ones. And when I really go sick they were painting the bathrooms which I inhaling the fumes from getting light headed from after 4-5 days they finally moved me since my work proformance was being affected. Could the excessive convertion of testosterone to estrogen could have resulted in excess lipid perioxidation which I have is pretty much a given. So stopping the antiestrogen just kind of reinforced that I have an estrogen problem. I was having the morning male thing with test and antiestrogen and then matter of a few days later I had nothing. I do remember when I was feeling really good I was taking 2 grams of calcium d glucurate with 4 caps of 98% PC plus mineral support. I did find several refrence saying that women on Birth control should increase zinc intake. Blood sugar imbalances can alter zinc metabolism and absorption as well.

I totally agree with you about the phytates binding the zinc, as well as copper and iron, but shouldn't zinc in chelated form be able to avoid this? When they talk about binding do they mean all zinc chelated supplements are vulnerable to this except the monomethionne form of zinc.


Posted by: Trouble

Quote:
. Could the excessive convertion of testosterone to estrogen could have resulted in excess lipid perioxidation which I have is pretty much a given.
No. The lipid peroxidation was directly brought about by suppression of the gluthathione antioxidant enzyme present in membranes. It must be recycled from oxidized to reduced in order to work. It also requires selenium in its active site. And, its gene expression is controlled by zinc finger proteins.

So there is a possible connection between your lipid peroxidation state, low glutahtione, low zinc and low selenium.

There maybe a zinc finger protein that controls gene expression of other systems in liver..its a largish family of regulatory control factors. Zinc in an organic chelate can only be absorbed as efficiently as the gut is able to do so. Remember, your gut lining isn't exactly hunky dory yet.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Yes my gut is not intact to well I am sure, but zinc lozengers should by pass that problem correct to an extent.


Posted by: Trouble

Yes sir, but zinc requires specific sulfur enzymes for internalization (across membranes, its active transport in the case of Zn) then transfered and bound to carrier proteins for plasma transport and insertion into active centers of enzymes. Also, when it counteracts overabundance of other metals or is out of balance with key metals, it can also cause problems. Note also that if you have a fast gut (meaning that you have rapid gastric emptying and a very acid environment (when neutralizing actions are absent in the intestines) metals may remain in solution and fail to be taken up effectively by gut.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

TRouble going back to the gut issue. . If fat is unabsorbed in the intestinal track can it interfer with nutrient absorption (protein, vitamins,minerals)? I know fats gets must be emulsified in order for the lipase to function properly, but what detrimental effects does this have on the body if the fat does not get properly emulisifed by bile salts. If fat is not properly digested this will have an impact on ones cholesterol production as well? Woud you possible end up with a scenerio similar to cystsis fibroysis creating Fat soap in your intestinal tract?


Thanks


Posted by: Trouble

Fat is emulsified to improve absorption across the gut wall lining. If it doesnt get emulsified, you end up with fluffy shits, floaters. Thats usually a pretty good indication if you have insufficient emulsification activity. Low density material in the intestines moves very quickly, hindering absorption of other materials, and the fats themselves can form a greasy occlusive layer on intestinal cells, if dietary fiber is low. Yes, if lipids aren't properly solubilized, it hinders colon reabsorption of bile acids and cholesterol.

132 posts and almost 2400 peeps. Hmm. You wonder.. what is the level of boredom of the average peeper to this thread???




Posted by: hardasnails1973

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
Fat is emulsified to improve absorption across the gut wall lining. If it doesnt get emulsified, you end up with fluffy shits, floaters. Thats usually a pretty good indication if you have insufficient emulsification activity. Low density material in the intestines moves very quickly, hindering absorption of other materials, and the fats themselves can form a greasy occlusive layer on intestinal cells, if dietary fiber is low. Yes, if lipids aren't properly solubilized, it hinders colon reabsorption of bile acids and cholesterol.

132 posts and almost 2400 peeps. Hmm. You wonder.. what is the level of boredom of the average peeper to this thread???
Well we know my choline levels are in the shitter verfied by WBC analysis. I did get some choline bitrate 350 mgs. Taking one a day along with my whole eggs so getting aquete amount of choline so to speak now if its getting absorbed that a whole other problem. i did run out of my Super enzyme pills with the oxbile in them other week so that might have some thing to do with fact when I eat fatty meals I just feel like bloated to hell like fat intolerant. When ever I eat low fat meals I feel fine CCK you were refering to if fat is not absorbed properly could this result fast gastric dumping which could be causing the bloat you feel after eating?

Yeah I know when the average peepers see these big scientific words in a thread that they do not know how to pronounce they run the other way.
For one thing you do not hold back and tell it like it is that for damn sure and never candy coat anything either


Posted by: Trouble

The bloat is an inflammation reaction often seen in spastic colon cases, caused by irritation from fatty acids..maybe from excess bile.

350mg of choline is a lot on top of whole eggs. I'll be curious to see how you respond to such a large dose.

*squint*

This thread is one of the driest I have ever seen; its mostly technical :

Why are forum readers eagerly tuning in for the next *exciting* installment??

Could they be waiting to see if you grow a third eye or turn an interesting shade of green from all these supplements?? *snicker*


Posted by: hardasnails1973

No not turning green, but I am starting to grow a third nut LOL . No actually my shits have been light tan for past few days when I can get them out LOL. So possible I may be low on bile. I got all laundry list of supplements finally back in stock. When ever people come over they think I am running a heathfood store out of my house. Reason I can not poop is my butt is too tight it can not relax. it like a need a valium or something to relax it. i stopped taking the lechithan few days ago and just using 350 mgs of choline bitrate with 3 whole eggs a day. The FAT dr (lipid queen) I went to had a great concept "burn the bad fats and replace with good one". She had me doing 8 whole eggs raw a day with 6 TBSP of essential fat blend and loaded me up on ton of supplements. Since being low on choline could there be a great chance that i am having problems with emulisification? I beleive the technical term is called liver steatosis. What to hear something interesting i have been taking emulsified vitamin D, A but not E when I had the WBC analysis and A,D where in normal range and vitamin E was not. Kind of cool huh.

For next mind blowing episode stay tunned....hardasnails is going to get in Trouble HAHA


Posted by: Trouble

Add a tablespoon of lecithin back. Keep your eggs. Break your capsules, take half. The light colored stools* is due to fat and not enough bile. You need fiber as well. Buy some citrucel and start to use 1 cap a day with a couple big glasses of water.

Poorly digested fatty acids are EXTREMELY irritating to the intestinal mucosa, which would explain the bloating and irritation/pain. Make sure you spread out your fat intake over the day. You are producing a trickle at present.

The citrucel should solubilize your fats better. Don't worry about bile. It will come along in production, not something you want to push to hard for release from liver. The inositol should be helping with the NASH problem. Beyond bile, fiber is the key to emulsifying fats in the diet and assuring normalized solid waste production.

*I can't believe how casual you are discussing the texture and color of your shits.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Some thing strange happen about an hour or so after taking the choline tab I got rashes under neath both my arm pits they were irritating as hell could not put my arms down. They finally went away after about 4 hours, could this been some kind of detoxification reaction. I thought I was getting plenty of fiber, may be I am not. Greens do not give you too much i guess. Some days I feel like Bugs bunny eating the greens. i might be getting about 20 grams a day may be a tad bit more. I might go back to my rice bran protein pancakes but do not eat them near my vitamins. I was getting 6 grams of fiber out of those puppies !! Do you think ground up flax seeds are too senstive on the digestive tract. at this time. I am using the rice bran in protein shakes a good to 4 hours away from my vitamins. It just feels like there is alot of gase trapped in my colon and can not get out. I feel if I could just let a few good ones ripp I would feel like a new man. I will never take anything for granted again not even farting !!

*I can't believe how casual you are discussing the texture and color of your shits" well it did provide vital information didn't it LOL Ok Next time I just say my fecal excriment was light tan in discoloration to be more pollitically correct


Posted by: Trouble

Rash sounds like an allergy. Don't take as much choline. I warned you that the standard dosing is nearly half of what you are taking alone in the capsules.

Fiber should be 30-40 grams. Most people are lucky to see 10g per day.

The fiber should take care of the gas/bloating problem.

I see we are not quite PC yet (migrated from shits to farts). I would get a cheap Melita coffee grinder and grind a mixture of psyllium and flaxseeds and use those in a the rice bran pancakes.

Post your pancake recipe here, would you? I want to try them. thanks


Posted by: hardasnails1973

6 egg whites 1 whole
1/2 cup rice bran NOW
cinamon or be alittle fruit ( strawlberries, or 1/4 cup organic apple sauce
blend them up (Kind of make the batter a not so thick other wise they do not come out right, I mastered how the texture should be) consistency should be that of like a myoplex shake.
hit it with pam or better organic butter and cook like pancakes.
I tried the psyllium husk before and it like mush on the inside.
i thought heating your not suppose to heat up flax seeds? they go rancid

DON't use bannanas they end up getting burnt to easy
i prefer cinamon because it helps with blood sugar control

How far away from vitamins should I have this since bran is loaded in phytates in order not to alter mineral absorption --- I know I can be a pain in the ass some times.


Posted by: Trouble

Flaxseed oil has been shown to be a lot less healthy than originally thought. I no longer recommend it consumption, but if you have the seeds, it might not be such a bad idea to consume them, providing you don't do it too frequently (every day).

Thanks, thats a nice simple recipe.

wait = 2 hrs, should be hunky dory.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

ok fiber intake for day
3 organic brown rice cakes = 6 grams
1/2 cup presoaked organic beans = 8 grams
1 -2 yam/red potatoes = 2 grams
rice pancakes = 4 grams
3 cup greens (dandilion, broccoli rob, swiss chard, carrots, green peppers, green beans, okra all mixed into a big steamer )= 4 grams a day

i might add an apple in my pancakes to give it alittle more kick so to speak.

Diet is gluten free and only grains would be coming from rice bran or rice cakes.
I eat something different every day do avoid developing allergies to food.

Why does your body crave certain foods? I could have ate the 1/2 lb of cashews very easily yesterday thats for sure.

yes i was a flax seed oil user/abuser for years. I was averaging about 3 -4 TBSP a day during contest dieting and not taking a could multivitmain with E in it and also. For 8 weeks i ate only egg whites no yolks with no red meat with 3 TBSP flax oil a day which was usuallly put on top of my meals and heated in the microwave 2 times a day HMMM could this be a good enviroment to envoke a silent fatty liver not even knowing it?


Posted by: Xel

Oi, Trouble,

Regarding phytates, in a IP6 thread over at AL someone brought up the point them impairing mineral absorption and Spook dismissed it, saying (quote) "there are numerous studies showing it to inhibit mineral absorbtion. However it has been shown that if you take vitamic C it eliminates this downside."

A real quick search yielded some stuff like:

The dose-dependent inhibitory effect of sodium phytate on iron absorption was studied in man by serving wheat rolls containing no phytates and rolls to which various amounts (seven dose levels between 2 and 250 mg expressed as phytate phosphorus) were added just before serving. Fe in the two kinds of rolls was labeled with two radioisotopes of Fe (55Fe, 59Fe) and the rolls were served on alternate days. The inhibition of Fe absorption was strongly related to the amount of phytate added; 2 mg inhibited absorption by 18%, (p less than 0.001), 25 mg by 64% (p less than 0.001), and 250 mg by 82% (p less than 0.001). The addition of ascorbic acid significantly counteracted the inhibition whereas the corresponding effect of meat was less well defined and only seen at the highest phytate level. The marked inhibition of Fe absorption by phytates and the significant counteracting effect of ascorbic acid have wide nutritional implications.

So, what's your take exactly? I consume a lot of rice bran and IP6 and currently do not seperate it from my primary mineral sources (both dietary and supplemental). Should I? (I already take 2g of ascorbic acid with it, BTW)

Thanks.


Posted by: Trouble

Hello again, Xel. I see you found me here at IM.

Phytates bind divalent cations. The authors of that study were interested in assessing iron depletion in diets by phytates. Remember, they're present in more than the out seed covering of common grains; they're found in unfermented soy products as well.

See this article: http://jhs.pharm.or.jp/52(4)/52_455.pdf

The authors assessed the effects of various environmental factors (pH, reactant concentration, mixing time and speed, etc) on phytate chelation of iron from wastewater solution.

Note that the reaction proceeds in acidic conditions (necessary to protonate the sialic bonds of phytates). One would expect, then that the iron chelation reaction occurs in the digestive track primarily in the stomach and is quenched (eg., inhibited) in the pH neutral condition of the small intestines and colon.

The addition of ascorbic acid *might* form competing complexes with iron and keep it from being absorbed in the stomach by phytate.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/lin...1.2003.00719.x

These authors assessed the calcium absorption isotherms for Ca by rice bran in solution. Again, the absorption is pH driven, but in this case, its the *release* of calcium at lower pHs and the absorption of local (to the phytate surface) soluble calcium at higher pHs that is the feature of phytate-calcium chemical equilibria of interest to us.

One would expect, then, that resident calcium within the phytate matrix is released in the stomach, and reabsorbed somewhat, in competition with both common monovalent cations like Na and H+ (present in superabundance in the stomach) or with divalent cations like Fe++ and Mn+2 in the more pH moderate intestinal track.

That phyatates apparently do not strip out calcium is supported by recent rice bran feed studies in laying hens, animals whose eggs are very susceptible to the effects of calcium shortages.

http://www.agr.hr/jcea/issues/jcea7-1/pdf/jcea71-18.pdf.

The expedient approach is then to be careful in taking your supplements when adding rice bran to your food. Delay taking them, or take them well in advance. I would use this approach for glucuronates, magnesium, TMG and inositol dose timing.

Does this make sense?

Chemistry: its whats for dinner.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

I bet you majority of general population take there mutlivitamin with breakfast containing of some kind of cereal such as fiber one, then slam them back with coffee. Well if the phytates from cereals do not get you then the caffine from the coffee probably will. i know phytates where a big problem with me because all these naturopathic drs want you to load up on veggies, nuts, seeds, grains and go low on protein. At one time I was consuming probably 30-40 lbs of veggies a week, but I was only following orders. Also to my ferritin level dropped from 130 down to 60 in matter of one year and also hair analysis indicated it as well all minerals where low except calcium, but it only mentioned grains and left our nuts and seeds which I was eating generous amounts of. Now I know that grains, bean, nuts I eat must be sprouted or soaked before consuming to prevent this.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

TRouble,
Since calcium d glucrate aids in estrogen and thyroid, testosterone metabolism. Is there any possiblity that it could be removing the testosterone I have been taking via the creme. I found only one reference not a scientific one that states. Some medication may need to be adjusted. Is there any scientific evidence of this vs just theory.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Akg how many grams would be a moderate dose to increase glutemine out put


Posted by: Trouble

Well, the reaction is natural, removing excess hormone, mostly estrogens, but its also been known to remove androgens *in specific tissues*, eg prostate, breast, uterine. NOT MUSCLE.

I sincerely doubt its removing your testosterone. As far as AKG goes, I would start with several small doses, 500 mg a day. See how you fare. Remembers, its excitatory in its action on gut. It may help your pancreas output for insulin.

Make sure you're not overcontrolling insulin release. I've done this in the past when I used both vanadium and chromium GTF at the same time. I've also done it when using too much K-ALA (too large of a daily dose). Result is a worsening of reactive hypoglycemia.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

insulin is definiety a factor. I am keeping carbs the same as protein or just alittle lower. When ever I take in alot of carbs and lower protein I crash really hard and i have been this way pretty much all my life so that way a lower carb diet seem to work alot better then higher carbs in the past. I am using krala 100 mgs a day just as antioxident support. Been a few days since I leveled out nicely and strength and libido is coming back like before. I saw my dr at the gym and notified him of the changes I expreinced and he found that to be interesting. I will have more blood test in 2 weeks. Felt very strong tonight benched 315 for a few reps, but its a start. Blood test ought to be interesting to see the changes.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Trouble,
I just read your article your best post yet about "mineral imbalances and methylation" and reading that alot of light bulbs went on. The part about calcium/magnesium ratio 2:1 really hit home. Not this dr, but all the ND before was drilling magasium in to my body like it was going out of style I mean 1000 mgs or more a day for several months with even diagnostic testing and only Ca doing what was in my multivitamin may 600 mgs if that and I do not drink milk (allergic ). Does excess magnesium interfer with zinc absorption? Another point nicely made is that lack of methyl donors (me obviously) results in lower sam-e (we already estabilished that), but if excess of magnesium and b-6 leads to excess cysteine and taurine production. Now when you mention b-6 are referring also to the P5P form or just plan b-6 HCL). I wish other people would take time to read your articles from other boards because I am sure with the steroid use and enviromental toxins on the rise they are bound to run into problems with no medical explanations other then depression. You mentioned about using supplements of calcium and magnesium not insolation. Did you mean they must be taken together or as long as they are taken on a daily basis that will suffice. People at 350 mgs of magnesium start to experience symptomes of magnesium excess I found that totally interesting. I am sure if you posted something of that nature of here people would not even bother to read and appreciate basically possible life saving information was infront of them.


Posted by: Trouble

No, zinc is regulated by iron and copper balance.

Mg+2 and Ca+2 are the common counterbalance ions in mito.

They have difference membrane channel transporters.

1000 mg of Mg is NOTHING. I recommend one or more grams a day for those who show signs of depletion, because they tend to favor calcium uptake due to acetate prevalence in gut.

If I take calcium, I have skin problems within a few days. Acetate is converted to glutamate and that sets off excess insulin release in me, which then causes subQ cells to release free fatty acids, which feed sebum production. Since these FFA can also worsen inflammation, this causes skin eruptions.

I tested the cascade many times. I can also elict the same response by eating an excess of grains in any given day (not bran, processed grains in bread or crackers).

Its a interesting feeback loop.

Excess B12 strips out methyl donors if its not methylated itself. Excess B6 will cause nightime disturbances in sleep. Excess magnesium cases muscle rigidity, they feel very hard, and breathing can feel as though you have a band around your chest. The other sign is gastric upset.

Unless you have clear signs of Ca deficiency in blood tests, I wouldn't take excess calcium. Ask you ND.You get in food as well. Unless you show signs of osteoporosis, I would be cautious about using calcium. 600 mg is a standard supplement dose for adults.

The whole point of using supplemental magnesium is to address GI muscosal cell Mg+2 uptake errors due to competition from Ca. You don't just absorb the ions because they are there. Its regulated.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

That is very interesting points. Now we all know we need testosterone for muscle building but that has to be balanced with estrogen, but i tried to find out what the consequences of lowering estrogen too low in terms of muscle buiilding and anabolic properties, but found little data. All these body builders taking anti estrogens could they actually being doing more harm then good because. I looked back on all mylab test and when I had my testosterone in the 900-1000 range, my progesterone was elevated and my estrodial was on the low end. I found that very strange. But what are the side effects of driving estrogen too low for a male. i could not find alot but symptoms of excess and low are almost identical. This will all be cleared up next week when I get my blood work done. What i found interesting is that estrogen raises copper serum levels and it also can raise cortisol levels thats could i could benefit from that greatly. i did find one study of male aromatase deficeincy but it did not explain things too clearly. The picture of the showed muscle atrophy and big pot belly.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

Could hypomethylation cause a defect in the metallothionein process which regulates zinc /copper metabolism. I am beginning to understand the "methy trape" would methylcobalin, and samme TMG help to overide this.
I have been taking about 50 - 100 mgs of p5p in a subligual for a long time could this be causing CBS pathway to be overactivated reducing the methioine synthase pathway. I also found a great article that testosterone in controlled dosages helps to reverse NASH.


Posted by: hardasnails1973

I found this to completely explain what is going on in my methylation imbalance.

It is hypothesised that B12 deficiency may reduce both extracellular choline supplies and intraneuronal synthesis and thereby result in the characteristic cholinergic deficit of AD.

As discussed previously, one effect of B12 deficiency is impairment of essential methylation reactions, due to reduced formation of SAM, and important source of intracellular methyl-groups . Nitrous oxide induced cobalamin inactivation in the rat results in lowered levels of hepatic SAM and methylation reactions are compromised . These animals remain well, however, and it has been shown that an alternative B12 independent pathway for methylation of homocysteine to methionine is induced . This is the betaine homocysteine methyltransferase pathway, betaine supplying the methyl group instead of methyl-folate. Betaine is derived from the oxidation of choline via betaine aldehyde. Hence, B12 deficiency results in the diversion of endogenous and dietary choline to overcome the MS block, with consequent reduction in plasma and extraneuronal supplies.

It is also proposed that intraneuronal choline synthesis is compromised in B12 deficiency. Choline may be released from phosphatidylcholine (PC) by base exchange of phospho-lipase mediated hydrolyses . PC is formed either by the incorporation of existing choline, or by de novo synthesis. The latter process involves three sequential methylations of PC by SAM . B12 deficiency should therefore result in a decreased supply of neuronal SAM. Furthermore, betaine homocysteine methyltransferase is absent in the brain , which will further exacerbate this process. Sequential methylation of PE to PC will therefore be inhibited in B12 deficiency, resulting in impaired de novo synthesis of intraneuronal choline. There will also be an inversion of the SAM/SAH ratio, thereby inhibiting all transmethylation reactions .


http://www.alzforum.org/res/adh/cur/...laminergic.asp

Is Folinic acid the same thing as 5- methyltetrahydrofolate?


Posted by: hardasnails1973

bump


Posted by: bjenkins257

Han how did you turn out? And trouble are you still a member on here?


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copper deficiency


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