Steroids and the Brain [Forum Archive]

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Steroids and the Brain

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Posted by: Tha Don

There are answers in this thread that are asked in several other threads. There is some great info and answers here. Please take the time to read it in its entirety.
dg806

Well we all know steroids have short term effects on the brain, such as aggressive behavior, immune system effects, mood swings, guilt, depression, etc.

But I've been having concentration/learning difficulties, and upon doing a little research came across this

Quote:

Anabolic Steroids Affect the Brain

Parts of the brain that influence your moods and are involved in learning and memory are called the limbic system. Anabolic steroids act in the limbic system. In animals, they have been shown to impair learning and memory. They can also lead to changes in mood, such as feelings of depression or irritability.

Anabolic steroid users may act mean to people they're normally nice to, like friends and family.

Anabolic steroids in the brain may trigger really aggressive behavior. Some outbursts can be so severe they have become known in the media as "roid rages."

That might help explain my difficulties in studying right now.

Dose anyone have anything that expands on this?

What about in the long-run? Any evidence to suggest that steroids cause any damage to the brain? I.E. Do they effect neurons or anything like that?

Posted by: TJ Cline

I doubt it, I'm in my last Anatomy and physiology class right now, it's accelerated so we learn it all in 5 weeks. I got a 86% on the first Lecture and a 95% on the first lab test. To be honest I didn't study that much and expected these two testrs to be my worst of this semester. I'm mid cycle right now and having 0 problems learning things fast.

Posted by: redman12

I think it has more to do with the individual

Posted by: skaterdude

My GPA was 3.10 this semester with the last half on juice.

Posted by: luke69duke69

I just find my ADD is worse when I'm on. But I'm in sales and I'm normally more energetic whenever I'm on and seem to over compensate that way.

Posted by: Tha Don

what are you running foreman?

i'll admit i felt super focused on my last cycle, which was test/var, but i was also on ECA, that always makes me super alert, so i guess the choice of compounds play a part

this time i'm on dbol/test/primo, 3rd week so test isn't fully up yet, but i'm thinking once that kicks in the situation will improve

dbol always makes me hella lethargic for some reason, i can sleep all day on this stuff, great for growing muscles, not so great for studying

anyways thanks for the replies, reading them has been a bit of a boost

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by skaterdude

My GPA was 3.10 this semester with the last half on juice.

is that good or bad?

Posted by: TJ Cline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tha Don

what are you running foreman?

i'll admit i felt super focused on my last cycle, which was test/var, but i was also on ECA, that always makes me super alert, so i guess the choice of compounds play a part

this time i'm on dbol/test/primo, 3rd week so test isn't fully up yet, but i'm thinking once that kicks in the situation will improve

dbol always makes me hella lethargic for some reason, i can sleep all day on this stuff, great for growing muscles, not so great for studying

anyways thanks for the replies, reading them has been a bit of a boost

800mg Test
300 Deca
60 Anavar

Posted by: Tha Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

800mg Test
300 Deca
60 Anavar

i suspected a good dose of test would be in there

Posted by: Trouble

You want the short answer or the long one?

Posted by: Pirate!

There is too much for me to address, but here are a few things to consider.

1) The limbic system is the link between high cognitive functions such as reasoning and emotional responses such as anxiety.

2) The hippocampus, part of the limbic system, is associated with learning and memory.

3) Your CNS is constantly rewiring itself through changes in neurological connections.

I won't get into how anabolic steroids might alter your CNS on the cellular or molecular level (because I really don't know). However, keep in mind that the steroids alter gene expression. It isn't just a few genes that turn up muscle building. No one knows everything that is being altered by the steroids.

Posted by: Trouble

You have complexes of related neurosteroid receptors throughout the brain, and they are enriched in certain loci (centers) involved in homeostasis, and the primative portion of your brain for sensory processing, and in the newer portion of your forebrain, in memory and information processing.

Neurosteroids come in two predominant flavors, negative and positive potentiating action on membrane level neurotransmitters - three that are tightly related and of significant interest to forum members here: glutamine, GABA, and NMDA. The production and action of these three neurochemicals is considerably altered in the chronic stress state.

You will ask why, at some later date, we will get into stress and its deleterious effects on GABA and NMDA regulation in brain tissue. Its actually the opposite of the problem in the spinal column. But I digress.

Neurosteroids also act on the glucocorticoid receptor (GR), prostane (PR) and on the Androgen receptor (AR) nuclear receptors at the gene level of control. Note that some compete for binding with cortisol and are stress regulators.

"Neurosteroids--important modulators of the central nervous system activity--have been biochemically and functionally well characterized in recent years.

Inhibitory neurosteroids are positive allosteric modulators of GABAA receptors which show anxiolytic and anticonvulsant properties, whereas negative modulators of GABAA receptors facilitate memory processes and at high doses show proconvulsant activity.

Allopregnanolone is the most potent inhibitory neurosteroid, and the reduced metabolites of deoxycorticosterone (cortisol) and androgens have similar though weaker action. Pregnenolone, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and their sulfate derivatives, belong to stimulating neurosteroids, that besides the inhibitory effect on GABAA receptors enhance activity of glutamatergic NMDA receptors and sigma1 receptors which leads to an increase in acetylcholine release, in consequence, strengthening cognitive processes."

(that means that DHEA is excitatory in its action on glutamate and NMDA - remember this, for it lies at the basis of anger issues and also aggressive behaviors...and also remember that stress elevates this activity - its additive)

Neurosteroids seem to be also involved in neuronal cell regeneration, regulation of hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis activity and in the mechanism of drug dependence and depression.

Pay attention. It also acts on several systems that lie at the heart of addictive behaviors. You will hear little of this, mostly beause it just doesn't get discussed in anabolic user circles. Plain fact. NMDA irregulation drive dopamine issues in a loci called striatal center and that dysregulation is the key to addictive action. You feel good on steroids and therefore will continue to use them. The dysregulation affects the loci in the forebrain involved in decision making and risk analysis and risk behavior. This is well documented in the biomedical literature. You should be aware that habitual conditioning of neurosteroid receptors by longterm use has other consequences in behavior modifications that you may not be aware of, because those changes are subtle. Note that depression is a common symptom of withdrawal and often drives users back on cycle.

Last item. I note with some humor the suggestion that steroids might negatively affect learning and test performance. If you read the quoted material form a 2005 review publication, you understand that it enhances short term learning to an extent.

Again pay attention. The maintenance of memory lies not in androgens, but in estrogen action for cell protection. Elevated ACh activity ---> higher ROS. But wait, you have fucked with the major antioxidant in brain, glutathione, for its downregulated because GABA is not being converted during stressful, hyperexcited states. Brain cells die faster and your long term memory and cognitive functions suffer. You forget more easily.

Bottom line: neurosteroids at supraphysiological levels can enable drug addiction, cause or worsen depression and anger disorders, and damage cognitive and memory functions with longterm use, all of these symptoms are made worse by accompanying chronic stress.

Always good to know the full effects of your brain candy.

Posted by: lnvanry

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I doubt it, I'm in my last Anatomy and physiology class right now, it's accelerated so we learn it all in 5 weeks. I got a 86% on the first Lecture and a 95% on the first lab test. To be honest I didn't study that much and expected these two testrs to be my worst of this semester. I'm mid cycle right now and having 0 problems learning things fast.

I was on two cycles during my last two years of school....3.75 gpa for me.

This seems like a pretty far fetched idea

Posted by: skaterdude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tha Don

is that good or bad?

Thats really good for me.

Posted by: Mudge

There is at least one study with women on testosterone therapy (who want to become 'men') which showed which areas they changed in, i.e. depth perception improvement. I wish I could remember the details but at the moment I dont.

Posted by: Trouble

Ivanry, there is nothing far fetched about it.

I spelled it out far better than you can find such discussion elsewhere, without the eye glazing technical details, because I've studied this topic for some time, suspecting that abberations in neurotransmitters superimposed on pre-exisiting stress-related problems, might be causing a worsening of symptoms for some users I've helped in the past with health issues.

Yeah, I wrote that last reply straight out, as I always do, with the exception of the quoted material, and that was just to prove a point that its already out there, in the recent biomed literature, what these neurohormone compounds are doing in the brain. Many of those steroids bind tight to the DHEA receptors, which is why Mudges comment is right on the money...

These steroids fake out the brain when its been under stress for a while, raising stress-depleted DHEA function in the brain and compensating temporarily for adrenal exhaustion by competing out cortisol binding at GR and other receptors. The adrenals produce 40 hormones, and most of them are underproduced under chronic stress because the motherload of the starting compound at the top of the twin chemical pathways - one for cortisol and the other for other adrenal corticol steroids - begins to be dominated by the path for cortisol production. Robbing one pathway to fill excess demand in the other. That actually leads to adrenal shinkage, as the medullary complex decreases due to understimulation and cell die off. If you use pressure point or acupuncture, you can increase its production - and size - by about 50%, which is pretty damn impressive, considering its noninvasive therapy, and all you are doing is stimulating the meridians (the nerve pathways) that induce the adnreals to start making more DHEA.

Fucking genius, if you want to increase test production without hormones, eh?

So depth perception improvement is directly correlated to DHEA function and cortisol supression in the brain. Good point, Mudge.

These steroids you take bolster confidence and socialibility (along with aggression, depends on how your epinephrine and norepinephrine are balanced and how short you are in methylation agents), improve short term memory, concentration and capture of detail/ cognitive function. Thats why Luke saw an improvement in his attention deficit disorder, despite the increase in ROS damage (a key feature of ADD) - which is a burn out in ACh (shorthand for acetylcholine receptors) in brain, due to over stimulation from glutamate. It fired up his NMDA, which ironically is short in some areas, but with a lack of GABA to modulate NMDA, there are other issues still present, along with oxidative damage and lack of repairs (squelshed by deliberate supression of estrogen).

What you guys are reporting here, it makes sense. But there are tradeoffs, the point of my post here. Better to know them, and recognize their signature, maybe start a little supplement program to offset some of it if you're going to continue use. Some of the hardwiring changes are more resistant to chemical corretion after years of use though.

Nothing in life is free. There are always costs that march alongside in lockstep with the benefits.

Posted by: Tha Don

Wow, Trouble thanks for that, i was hoping you'd notice this thread!

The thing is, i'm having a hard time taking that all in, lol!

I guess my real question is this, can steroid use effect long term learning, and memory (which may therefore impact intellegence)? Or is the brain resistant to these effects?

Are you also saying low estrogen levels can have adverse effects?

I'm aware of the short-term effects, and the potential to increase aggressiveness, addiction, anxiety, guilt etc... I'm more concerned for the long-term changes they may cause, in other words can steroids turn a smart man thick? in any way, like you see some past drug abusers, and they have lost the plot, most guys that have used steroids still seem to have their wits about them though (Arnie would be a prime example), but i'm just curious to see what the facts say.

Appriciate your input!

Posted by: Pirate!

All short term changes have the potential to change how things are later in life. We are always becoming.

Posted by: redflash

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirate!

All short term changes have the potential to change how things are later in life. We are always becoming.

Deep, Pirate, deep.... I thought this forum was always full of surprises but now i get philosophy! Respect.

Anything Buddhist in there? I've never quite been able to rationalise living in the now and building biceps for tomorrow.... but I'm trying.

Flash

Posted by: Trouble

redflash: close enuf for gov't work. Taoist.. Mudge quotes Taoist philosophy.
Come to think on it, so does Pirate. Ultra-cool.

Its not that these compounds turn your dumb, its that they also bind to, and activate, receptors that will cumulatively result in excess cell damage and repress NGF, neural growth factor, necessary for repair of oxgyen and nitrogen free radical damage. Estrogen receptors are a modulating influence, allowing repairs to occur more easily. The problem is, repair mechanisms are also repressed by stress itself, so that the net result of steroid use superimposed on longterm stress is one of geometric, not additive, effects.

In the long run, a more laid back and less aggressive mindset is imparative to ward off degenerative conditions and neurological disease.

The answer to your question, TD: Over time, a lack of adequate neural maintenance and repair results in brain shinkage. Not a good thing. Does this affect mental performance? Depends on your metric. Does it affect emotional regulation? Yes, clearly shown by anecdotal evidence and in studies. Does it affect longevity and quality of life in later years. Oh yes. Presuming you live to old age. But thats a story for some other day, a tale of cardiovascular system response to androgen and other nuclear receptors, and steroid impact on liver function.

It always comes back to liver. I think thats why so much of my study and interest has been focused on liver. Its role in health maintenance is crucial and the extent of its influence over nearly all other organs in the body in sorely underestimated.

============= Time for a little look-ahead======================
Thank-you for starting this topic. I am not here to preach for or against use of steroids. I am here to educate and inform. Informed people make better decisions.

In the appropriate context and duration, steroids have a place in developing a platform for superior althletic performance. The working assumption on conditions pre-steroid use: stress is low, glucose metabolism is highly efficient (and I've demonstrated elsewhere that this is supported elegantly in the biomedical literature and in practical application), and the body is as optimized and at its maxiumum natural bodymass- a jump point for careful use of a few selected cycles to readjust bodymass controls, and allow the frame to accomodate a higher lean muscle mass, with proportionate stength, than it would other carry. Trade off: shortens lifespan if allowed to continue as a practice for decades. Why? Only so many cell divisions in your body, and you are burning them at a faster rate than evolutionary controls allow to happen naturally. Plus, with added miles of duct work, the heart must enlarge to meet the extra blood volume demand. Meanwhile, the brain is paying in price in elevated testosterone and reduced estrogens through atrophy.

Again, know your tradeoffs, benefits and costs. Also note, that what you are tweeking with steroids can be tweeked by other means nuclear receptor ligands and gene transcription factors. The chemistry boyz know this. Thats the next generation of legal chemicals that will (or is) be in widespread use. They will afford the steroid user an intelligent alernative to both long-term xenobiotic chemical use and pct, and afford on their own a happy medium between 'natural maximum' and 'chemically enhanced maximum', circumventing many of the negatives of the latter and promoting liver and brain health.

That where I see the future going in Anabolics.

Posted by: Tha Don

that was a great post! made everything very clear, thanks a lot!

Posted by: Tough Old Man

Trouble your nothing but a walking ENCYCLOPEDIA who has done
everything to help us all understand more about Anabolics.

But then I feel so stupid at times when reading your gifted knowledge that I pull my hair out. Wait I can't do that as I shave my head.

Oh well keep up the great work Girl.

Tough

Posted by: inkd

We are always pushing out old information and taking onn new memories...this is why it becomes harder and harder to remember all of our childhood, early years, etc. We "hang on" to special moments because we choose to. Our minds can suppress memories, and even create them into something else. I dont know if a simple answer as AAS affecting the brain is a causal agent, rather a correlated one. SO MANY OTHER factors could be present....IMO

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