Originally Posted by Mike Tuvre, USA

Any chance?
Thanks

Originally Posted by mike456

Don't you think if he eats maintenece calories with clean foods he will gain muscle without gaining fat?
Eat Lean Meats/Poultry/Fish for Protein
Eat Oatmeal for Good Carbs
Eat peanuts/fish for Good Fats
Eat vegetables
40%/40%/20%carbs
I think yo can do it.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

If you eat maintenance calories, then you won't gain weight.
If you gain weight, some of it will be fat. Believe me, it's damned near impossible to gain muscle without fat. I have gone through periods where my diet was as meticulous as a competing bodybuilder's. I still gained fat with very modest caloric suprluses.

Originally Posted by mike456

Combined with weight training, I believe you will, IMO

Originally Posted by fufu

Negative. Maintence means to maintain, to stay the same. How can you gain muscle if you don't gain weight? It is simple math. You can get stonger but you won't get any bigger.

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

Agreed....If a person was to gain muscle without gaining weight...they would have to be gaining muscle while LOSING fat...which is even more unlikely.

Originally Posted by fufu

Negative. Maintence means to maintain, to stay the same. How can you gain muscle if you don't gain weight? It is simple math. You can get stonger but you won't get any bigger.

Originally Posted by fufu

Negative. Maintence means to maintain, to stay the same. How can you gain muscle if you don't gain weight? It is simple math. You can get stonger but you won't get any bigger.

Originally Posted by mike456

To eat Maintenece means to stay at the same Amount of BodyFat not weight!

If you eat over maintenence you will gain fat - it is that simple.

If you lift and eat maintenence you will gain muscle with no fat.

Originally Posted by mike456

CP- If you eat at your maintenence that does not mean you cant lose or gain weight- look at my previous posts.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

By definition, that is exactly what it means. I'm telling you that you're wrong.

Originally Posted by mike456

No it does not, if you eat at maintenece that means you will maintain your Bodyfat, not Bodyweight. I don't care what anyone else thinks, you may think I am being close minded, but in my head I am 100% right.

Originally Posted by mike456

Yes it means keeping something as it was.
Eating Maintenece Calories-
keeps bodyfat the same not bodyweight.

What if a bodybuilder stops lifting and eats maintenece- he will lose bodyweight but keep the same body fat.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

His maintenance calories will change if he stops lifting because his energy requirements have changed. Now, he effectively no longer knows what his maintenance calories are. This is not a good example.

Also, your example is wrong anyway. He may very well keep his muscle mass and gain body fat as a result of decreasing energy requirements while keeping energy intake the same.

Originally Posted by kenwood

Originally Posted by kenwood

yes.

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

Mike....you are stupid and wrong. What the fuck is the root word of "maintenance"....to MAINTAIN. What the fuck do you think muscle is made of?? Hopes and dreams??? If your body is expending exactly what it takes in on a daily basis...how can it possibly be charged with the extra task of building more metabolically expensive tissue?? If it can it will burn MUSCLE for energy FIRST. As it is less "efficient" in terms of raw survival.

Where do you get this shit?? Why don't you do some more reading instead of pulling useless bullshit out of your ass in what hopes I can only imagine is confusing less intelligent newer posters for your own pitiful entertainment....



Damn and there have been moments when it seemed you had learned alot and was starting to help some of the newer lifters.

Originally Posted by mike456

Guy who started the thread- Eat maintenence and get a good training program. You will gain muscle with no fat. It will be a bit slower progress, but you will keep your abs and add muscle.

Originally Posted by juggernaut

uh its a debate. shut up dicknose and let him debate. All youre doing is polling up your meager little post count.

Originally Posted by mike456

Guy who started the thread- Eat maintenence and get a good training program. You will gain muscle with no fat. It will be a bit slower progress, but you will keep your abs and add muscle.

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

And the debate was between mike and I....and I made a point in my last post...something you didn't in this one....looks like you are the troll trying to up your post count...

and dicknose?? How fucking lame...you are useless.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Mike, just admit you're wrong. If you are eating at maintenance level, then that means your body has enough energy to survive and perform your regular daily activities without reducing current energy reserves (Fat stores). How do you expect your body to build muscle without extra energy to do so? The energy and materials (Amino acids from protein intake) to build muscle have to come from somewhere. If you have already used all of the energy you provided your body with just to survive, there will be nothing left for you to build muscle with.

Originally Posted by juggernaut

yo momma.

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

Mike....you are stupid and wrong. What the fuck is the root word of "maintenance"....to MAINTAIN. What the fuck do you think muscle is made of?? Hopes and dreams??? If your body is expending exactly what it takes in on a daily basis...how can it possibly be charged with the extra task of building more metabolically expensive tissue?? If it can it will burn MUSCLE for energy FIRST. As it is less "efficient" in terms of raw survival.

That is the problem some of you are tinking of the word maintenece and it has to do with diet, so that makes you automatically think maintenence means to maintain the same bodyweight, I will say it one more time eating maintenece makes you maintain your bodyfat not bodyweight. So what if I ate maintenece and lost muscle/or gained a few inches on my height, I lossed/gained bodyweight, but kept at the same bodyfat

Where do you get this shit?? Why don't you do some more reading instead of pulling useless bullshit out of your ass in what hopes I can only imagine is confusing less intelligent newer posters for your own pitiful entertainment....
I got "this shit using" my common sense.

Damn and there have been moments when it seemed you had learned alot and was starting to help some of the newer lifters.
Yea and this is another one of those moments.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

If you eat maintenance calories, then you won't gain weight.

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

BS

Very easy to grow every year eating around maintence calories....bulking is only for very very skinny people and those who love to be fat.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Mike, just admit you're wrong. If you are eating at maintenance level, then that means your body has enough energy to survive and perform your regular daily activities without reducing current energy reserves (Fat stores). How do you expect your body to build muscle without extra energy to do so? The energy and materials (Amino acids from protein intake) to build muscle have to come from somewhere. If you have already used all of the energy you provided your body with just to survive, there will be nothing left for you to build muscle with.

Originally Posted by kcoleman

Yea, you can gain weight eating around your maintenance level, but if you are truly eating exactly at maintenance, and aren't new to lifting/having a growth sput/on gear, then you won't grow.

Originally Posted by mike456

CowPimp, just admit you're wrong. His maintenece will change when he starts lifting!!! Don't you understand what is maintenece calories. It is the calories you eat to maintain that bodyfat(not bodyweight). So if his body will be burning the protein/energy,etc. off (to build the muscle)he will still stay at the same bodyfat, but there will be added muscle. So if his body needs that protein/energy,etc. to add needed muscle that will be in his maintenece because he is burning it off!
Maintenece calories will keep ypu at your same bodyfat, not weight.

What you explained is not eating maintenece! If he ate maintenece his body will have the energy needed to make the muscle and it will be burned off. no fat will be used for energy, and no fat will be gained.

Originally Posted by kcoleman

Yea, you can gain weight eating around your maintenance level, but if you are truly eating exactly at maintenance, and aren't new to lifting/having a growth sput/on gear, then you won't grow.

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Not even possible to eat exactily maintance calories every day.....unless you are hooked up to some nutritional computer that I have not heard of yet.

Almost every guy I trained with who was strong or a good athlete when I was a kid had the same BF% year round and grew just fine.....the ones who "Bulked" were fat powerlifters and now 20+ years later they are still fat pigs.

Originally Posted by mike456

Yes you can!! If you eat at exactly maintenence you won't gain fat or lose fat, but you can gain muscle/height therefor gaining weight. It has nothing to do with bodyweight, just BF! If you are eating maintenece and lifting that means you are eating enough to build muscle without fat.

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Not even possible to eat exactily maintance calories every day.....unless you are hooked up to some nutritional computer that I have not heard of yet.

Almost every guy I trained with who was strong or a good athlete when I was a kid had the same BF% year round and grew just fine.....the ones who "Bulked" were fat powerlifters and now 20+ years later they are still fat pigs.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Mike, you are ridiculous. How is anyone going to gain weight without a surplus of calories?
What the hell are you talking about, people sometime gain muscle when on a cut, but that is not my point

Your definition of maintenance is totally jacked. Maintenance calories does not include the calories necessary to create new muscle mass. If there are calories enough to build new muscle, then you are NOT eating at maintenance.
Yes you are because your bodyfat will stay at the same fucking amount! The way your thinking you would lose fat while on maintenece while lifting.

I don't know where you go this definition of maintenance, but it is wrong. You simply don't know what the Hell you're talking about.
You do not know what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by kcoleman

OK I think the only problem here is a matter of semantics. Except mike, who's just being a dumbass.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

No one has answered to me the question of where your body gets the energy with which to build muscle if you are eating maintenance.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

No one has answered to me the question of where your body gets the energy with which to build muscle if you are eating maintenance.

Originally Posted by mike456

Can we get a diet/nutrition expert to comeover here and look at this shit.

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I will get the notes and medical reports I took from 1981 to 1988 showing I had 10-11% BF year round and went from 160 to 215 with only 5lbs of fat gain over 7 years.....just give me a minute.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I believe you, but then you were eating above maintenance calories to get there. It may have not been much over maintenance, but it was more than maintenance or you wouldn't have gained weight.

Originally Posted by mike456

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Ok fine I was eating enough to build muscle but not gain fat ....I am not going to agrue over definitions and word ussage ......think you get my point just fine and I yours.

Originally Posted by mike456

CP- Tell me your explanation on how to find out your maintenece

Originally Posted by kcoleman

Foreman, you say you don't have to bulk in order to gain weight. I agree. But in reality, when you added LBW and kept BF the same, you were either steadily eating slightly above maintenance or going through mini bulk/cut cycles.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Trial and error is the only way, because even if you get tested via measurement of carbon dioxide emissions during expiration it is impossible to quantify daily activity levels. When you are eating an amount of calories that you keep your bodyweight the same, then you have discovered maintenance caloric intake.

Originally Posted by mike456

Wrong! When you are eating an amount of calories that keep your bodyfat the same, then you have discovered maintenece caloric intake.

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I just see the term "bulk" used by most people to gain weight.....muscle and fat. To gain 10lbs of muscle and only 1 Lb of fat in 6 months to me is not classic bulking it is just great eating and training. It seems we only have a differance of opinions here on the term bulk not the results of one or how to grow.

Originally Posted by mile456

Wrong! When you are eating an amount of calories that keep your bodyfat the same, then you have discovered maintenece caloric intake.

Originally Posted by mike456

Does eating at maintenece make you maintain your Bodyfat or Bodyweight?

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I'm not wrong Mike. Why would it only concern your body fat? That's not homeostasis.

Originally Posted by Mike Tuvre, USA

I'm ready to start bulking again, but don't want to lose my abs. Any chance? Been training many yrs. Never had a successful "clean bulk" where I saw dramatic growth. My best growth is when I pig out on everything, but losing even 10 lbs of fat (later) sux.

Thanks

Originally Posted by kcoleman

Bodyweight. Which is a combination of your bodyfat, skeletal muscles, organs, bones, fluids, etc....

Originally Posted by mike456

Now eat this number for the rest of your training life

Originally Posted by mike456

How the fuck will eating maintenece maintain all this shit, what if you stop lifting you will lose muscle therefor losing bodyweight. What if you grow a few inches you will gain bodyweight. You were eating maintenence but still lost/gained weight, but your BF stayed the same, thiis is why eating manintenece only maintains bodyfat not bodyweight.

Originally Posted by mike456

Tell me were the hell you saw that if you eat at maintenece you will stay at the same weight??

Heres something to prove my point:
If you eat at maintenece, and stop lifting you will lose muscle there for- losing weight. That just proved you wrong, you ate at maintenece but still lost weight.

Now think in vice-versa:
If you ate maintenece and lifted weights you would gain muscle therefor- gaining weight!You ate at maintenece but still gained weight.

Originally Posted by fufu

main·tain ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn-tn)
tr.v. main·tained, main·tain·ing, main·tains
To keep up or carry on; continue: maintain good relations.
To keep in an existing state; preserve or retain: maintain one's composure.
To keep in a condition of good repair or efficiency: maintain two cars.

To provide for; support: maintain a family.
To keep in existence; sustain: enough food to maintain life.
To defend or hold against criticism or attack: maintained his stand on taxes.
To declare to be true; affirm: maintained her innocence.
To adhere or conform to; keep: maintain a busy schedule.

Originally Posted by mike456

I said all I need to say, and I am done if all of you want to keep gaining fat while trying to bulk, and then losing muscle while trying to cut, go ahead.

Originally Posted by fufu

Maintenance doesn't apply exclusively to bodyfat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AH!

Originally Posted by FishOrCutBait

Agreed. Cowpimp is always right. always. Seriously

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I will get the notes and medical reports I took from 1981 to 1988 showing I had 10-11% BF year round and went from 160 to 215 with only 5lbs of fat gain over 7 years.....just give me a minute.

Originally Posted by mike456

After posting in the diet section, I was wrong with the definition of maintenence, but I still think it is possible to gain muscle with no fat.

Originally Posted by FishOrCutBait

Agreed. Cowpimp is always right. always. Seriously

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

Were you using drugs when you accomplished this feat?? I was 13 in 1981 dude


Secondly....if you gain weight and not fat, your bodyfat percentage would go down. For example. 10 is 10% of 100 and 15 is 10% of 150....same percentage but a higher number....so if you are gaining weight and staying at the same BF%, guess what...you are putting on fat at the same time...as trivial as the amount may be...that's what you are doing. Ok Einstein I had a 32-32.5 inch waist the entire time, is that a better way to show my body fat for you

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

So not only do you have medical reports dating back to when you were 13 That was sarcasm Einstein ...but you also were 160lbs and had a 32 inch waist when you were 13 also?? Yes And from age 13 to 20 your waist size increased only a half an inch?? Yes...my waist hit 31 at 19 but I was on a cut to hit 2x body weight bench....I failed to hit that goal only 405 at 206



...



Oh and I don't see the relevance of what a person does when in the most anabolic stage of their life in terms of what a grown man/experienced lifter can or can't do. The poster is not 40, he is 22 or less I think? so he is still in that zone That's just my opinion though...You have much more experience than I, and that's more important than what I "guess"