Question on squatting [Forum Archive]

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Question on squatting

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Posted by: kcoleman

Ok I am relatively new to the squat. To help make sure I go ass to grass each rep (a bit below true parallel is what I consider ATG) I have set the safety things in my power rack so the bar will rest on them when I bring the weight ATG.

I bring the weight down in a controlled fashion, make sure both sides of the bar gently touch the sawhorses, and then drive the weight up.

Are there any disadvantages to squatting like this? Would anyone consider this cheating?

Posted by: P-funk

I would make sure that you aren't bouncing the bars off the rack and that if the bars do touch and you pause you get really really tight before you drive back up.

You might want to look at using a milk crate to measure depth....if it is to low, you can put a 45lb plate or two on top of it to touch down to.

After a few times though, you should have established were your depth is and you should be comfortable without the pins in though. You need to get comfortable squatting down on your own and feeling where bottom is without having something to dictate it to you.

Posted by: CowPimp

Well, ATG is as low as you can go assuming flexibility issues don't limit you.

Anyway, besides that, yeah there is a disadvantage to squatting like that: it's harder! You don't get to take full advantage of the stretch reflex if you pause on the pins while in the hole. I think it's a great way to squat. Try starting the bar from the bottom for a real challenge. This is an excellent way to improve starting strength with the squat.

Posted by: kcoleman

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Well, ATG is as low as you can go assuming flexibility issues don't limit you.

Anyway, besides that, yeah there is a disadvantage to squatting like that: it's harder! You don't get to take full advantage of the stretch reflex if you pause on the pins while in the hole. I think it's a great way to squat. Try starting the bar from the bottom for a real challenge. This is an excellent way to improve starting strength with the squat.

I can go a few inches below parallel with a neutral spine... I can go even further and have my calvs squished up against my thighs but that would mean my lower back rounds a bit.

Posted by: kcoleman

Thanks Pimp and Funk. I am currently experimenting and squatting in the 20 rep range. I started last week with a pretty light weight that I was able to do 20 times in this fashion (without rest-pause) and the 20th rep was killer. This week I put 5lbs on the bar and did 26 reps in the same way but with 1-2 breaths inbetween reps after 20.

My lifting tempo is kindof explosive but I don't slam the weight. I am not restarting each rep off the sawhorses, merely letting them gently touch and then driving the weight up, akin to deadlifting by touching the weight to the floor each rep (ie. not actually deadlifting I guess).

I think I'm going to continue like this. While my first set last week wasn't really a true twenty rep squat (rest pauses and feeling like you wanna die towards the end), I definitely got stronger when I did it this week, and am confident that I will be able to keep adding 5lbs to the bar.

Posted by: SuperFlex

Keep them up man. You'll be glad you did...

Posted by: dontsurfonmytur

I used to do AtG squats and thats when this personal trainer at my gym told me thats a good way to hurt ur kneesa nd to go parallel to the floor. I also ask this old guy who was squating with me and asked him how low hewent. He says the max he goes parallel cuz of his knees. Ever since than i go only parallel (maybe sometimes lower by accident). So is that correct? ATG squats can lead to knee problems??

Because I think i did have some knee pains but i dont have them anymore... Dont know if theyre from ATg squats tho..

Posted by: ATOMSPLTR

Anytime I have gone below parallel I have hurt my knees, now matter how light the weight. And I never felt there was any benefit.

Posted by: PWGriffin

I have actually read that it is harder on the knees to stop before parallel.

Posted by: Pedigree

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

I have actually read that it is harder on the knees to stop before parallel.

You read correctly. Not going low enough puts sheer force on the front of the knees.

Posted by: nsimmons

If you want to hit your ass and hams hard you need to go all the way down.

I have knee problems, torn acl, mcl, a big mess in the left, right is a little clicky, nothing major. Heavy ass atg squats have done nothing but improve my knees condition. Stability is much better, there are no chronic aches, no random dislocations.

I will not do leg extensions though, the knee feels like somethings not right and it may seperate.

Posted by: MCx2

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsimmons

If you want to hit your ass and hams hard you need to go all the way down.

I have knee problems, torn acl, mcl, a big mess in the left, right is a little clicky, nothing major. Heavy ass atg squats have done nothing but improve my knees condition. Stability is much better, there are no chronic aches, no random dislocations.

I will not do leg extensions though, the knee feels like somethings not right and it may seperate.

I have the exact same problem with my right knee, torn acl, mcl. My left knee was perfectly fine until I started going below parallel. Now my left knee hurts more than my right knee. Thanks ATG squats!!

Posted by: nsimmons

Then you used poor form and hurt it yourself. The exercise is not predisposed to causing knee injury and there is ample evidence to suggest the opposite.

Posted by: MCx2

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsimmons

Then you used poor form and hurt it yourself. The exercise is not predisposed to causing knee injury and there is ample evidence to suggest the opposite.

My form is spot on. My genetics are what don't allow me to go below parallel without discomfort. There is ample evidence to support either theory btw.

Posted by: nsimmons

So you are genetically disposed to knee injury? Wheres darwin??

I suggest you work on flexibilty.

As stated earlier in the thread measurable forces have been shown under lab conditions to be less when below parallel. Do a search for this but there are many studies to show it.

Pfunk has provided some in past posts if i recall.

Posted by: MCx2

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsimmons

So you are genetically disposed to knee injury? Wheres darwin??

I suggest you work on flexibilty.

As stated earlier in the thread measurable forces have been shown under lab conditions to be less when below parallel. Do a search for this but there are many studies to show it.

Pfunk has provided some in past posts if i recall.

I don't need to do a search. Bellow parallel = extreme pain. Parallel and above doesn't. Doesn't take a scientific study to figure that one out.

Posted by: Dale Mabry

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatCatMC

You probably favor your right leg, leading to the left taking a greater amount of the load, leading to an asymmetrical hip shift which would put torque at the knee joint. Where on your knee does it hurt?

Posted by: MCx2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Above the patella. Sore to the touch as well. But that's only when I get bellow parallel, it's an extreme pressure on the spot I described.

Posted by: nsimmons

If you are unable to perform an exercise without injuring yourself than that is nothing but a defect in your physiology. I would bet money the cause of your pain is can be traced to an inbalance else where in your legs.

Where are your knees in relation to your feet when fully decended? Width of stance? Direction feet are pointing?

If my knees move very far past my toes i feel excessive knee strain, and have to lean back and place more load into the glutes and hams.

A lot of problems arise from lack of hamstring flexibilty. I have had to work on this issue myself.

Posted by: MCx2

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsimmons

If you are unable to perform an exercise without injuring yourself than that is nothing but a defect in your physiology. I would bet money the cause of your pain is can be traced to an inbalance else where in your legs.

Where are your knees in relation to your feet when fully decended? Width of stance? Direction feet are pointing?

If my knees move very far past my toes i feel excessive knee strain, and have to lean back and place more load into the glutes and hams.

A lot of problems arise from lack of hamstring flexibilty. I have had to work on this issue myself.

It's actually the lean back that hurts it. The deeper and further back I am, the more pressure I feel on the spot above the patella. When I'm up on the balls of my feet (like a catcher in baseball) there is little to no pressure. I even dropped the weight for a few weeks just to make sure my form was on and I don't get the pain until I get to that ass-to-ground point. It doesn't make much sense to me because I'm quite flexible and have no problem getting into the squat, it's the getting out that causes the pain.

Posted by: Dale Mabry

The fact that your left knee is in greater pain now leads me to believe there is some compensation, but I wouldn't be able to say for sure without a movement screen. If you do favor your right leg, or did during the recovery phase of your surgery, your posterior chain could be tight on the left side. It could also be a weak left quad, but that is doubtful given the history of right knee injuries.

People don't understand that a slight hip shift can fuck you up pretty good, especially in the lower body. Ask P-funk, an injury to your left ankle can affect your right shoulder.

You can fix the actual problem, or you can just not squat below parallel, your choice. How old are you? That would definintely have an impact in my decision if I were you. If you are 20 something it may be a good idea to fix it, if you are older or inactive, you may just leave it alone. I like my ROM so I would fix it. Athletic Body in Balance by Gray Cook is a pretty good book to look at for functional movement screens if you don't have access to a good therapist or trainer.

Posted by: Dale Mabry

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatCatMC

When I'm up on the balls of my feet (like a catcher in baseball) there is little to no pressure. .

So, would you say that if you squatted ATG with your heels up on plates there would be no pain? If that were the case, weak anterior tibialis and/or tight calf/soleus would be the culprit. Even if there is still pain when the heels are elevated, but it is less, I would believe part of your problem is with your lower leg.

Posted by: nsimmons

Compensation is an excellent point. If my right knee ever starts to hurt I know ive been using it to compensate and I make an effort to force the bad knee to work. My entire left leg is smaller than my right due to 8 years of favouring it.

Have you had anything done on the bad knee to fix it? I had mine scoped and it made a huge difference in general aches and pains, as well as funny sounds. The joint is much smoother now.

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

People don't understand that a slight hip shift can fuck you up pretty good, especially in the lower body. Ask P-funk, an injury to your left ankle can affect your right shoulder.

wow....can't believe you pulled that card on me!

that project was 5 pages long.

Posted by: MCx2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Sounds like the PF joint. The fact that your left knee is in greater pain now leads me to believe there is some compensation, but I wouldn't be able to say for sure without a movement screen. If you do favor your right leg, or did during the recovery phase of your surgery, your posterior chain could be tight on the left side. It could also be a weak left quad, but that is doubtful given the history of right knee injuries.

People don't understand that a slight hip shift can fuck you up pretty good, especially in the lower body. Ask P-funk, an injury to your left ankle can affect your right shoulder.

I'd like to fix the problem. I'm 26 years old. You're right about favoring my right leg, my quads are a noticibly different size. Like I said before in the thread I've dropped the weight considerably on my squats for a good period to re-evaluate my form and I have to say it's pretty solid. Flexibility has never been an issue and just recently I have started stretching before and after my workouts (which has helped alot actually). I like full ROM as well, I much prefer to work with lower weight and full ROM. I'll have to check that book out, I picked a few up that you recommended in your book review thread and was pleased. Thanks.

Posted by: MCx2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

So stretching, stretching and more stretching would begin to help the problem?

Posted by: Dale Mabry

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatCatMC

So stretching, stretching and more stretching would begin to help the problem?

Without having looked at you and if elevating your heels helps, I would start with a decent calf/soleus stretching program as well as strengthening of your anterior tib, it is very common for both of these things to be an issue. The reason elevating your heels during a squat allows you to go deeper is that it loosens up the calves so increasing calf flexibilty should help. You might even be able to get away with just stretching your calves/soleus prior to squatting. It would reduce power, but ROM is more important, IMO.

If elevating your heels does not completely remedy the pain, there is something else going on.

*I am not telling you to squat with elevated heels, it is just a test, you should squat with your heel flat on the floor.

Posted by: Dale Mabry

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

wow....can't believe you pulled that card on me!

that project was 5 pages long.

That was the class wth the sahrmann book, right? 5 pages, that is funny, they gave you 3-4, right?

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

That was the class wth the sahrmann book, right? 5 pages, that is funny, they gave you 3-4, right?

yea, that book and the kineseology of the musculoskeletal system for the physical rehabilitatio professional.

It was supposed to be 3-4 pgs. Mine went to 4.5 pages. I got long winded i guess. after about 2pgs. i just started to get annoyed. i hate typing all that shit out. I wish i could just call the professor on the phone and say my answer into his damn answering machine,

Posted by: MCx2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Yeah, I'm not too keen on the elevated heels idea. I'll start stretching the shit out my my calves and hope for the best. I'm pretty confident that I have not injured anything although the pain can last for a few days at times. I'm no expert, but it seems to be more of an inflamation than anything. Thanks Dale.

Posted by: Dale Mabry

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

2 books, fuck that. Sounds like they aremore trying to increase book sales.

Figuring out professors is the worst. When I wrote some of my earlier papers in college, I would get so long-winded at the beginning because I didn't think I could get x number of pages out of a topic and then I ended up getting like 2x. Then, a professor told me he didn't want to spend "My entire fucking weekend..." grading papers so I just wrote as little as humanly possible. I had him for a lot of classes so it worked out well.

FatCat, no problem.

Posted by: P-funk

ah. i don't mind buying textbooks. especially those books.....they were very informative.

Posted by: CowPimp

I've yet to see any definitive evidence to suggest that squatting below parallel is harder on the knees, quite the contrary in fact.

Posted by: CowPimp

http://www.michaelboyle.biz/videos.html

Fatcat, also check out the two videos at the bottom of this page. They are exercises for improving ankle mobility.

Posted by: MCx2

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

http://www.michaelboyle.biz/videos.html

Fatcat, also check out the two videos at the bottom of this page. They are exercises for improving ankle mobility.

Thanks. I already do 2 of 2. I can't tell what's going on in the 1 of 2 video, it looks like their heels are hanging off of a platform and they are bending at the knees to stretch out the ankle?

Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatCatMC

Thanks. I already do 2 of 2. I can't tell what's going on in the 1 of 2 video, it looks like their heels are hanging off of a platform and they are bending at the knees to stretch out the ankle?

It's the same idea as the second video, except your ankles are dorsiflexed. You achieve this by putting something under your toes to elevate them. I just throw a couple of 5 pound plates under my client's feet if I have them do this drill.

Posted by: MCx2

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Sweet, I'll give it a go tonite. Thanks CowPimp.

Posted by: Gordo

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

http://www.michaelboyle.biz/videos.html

Fatcat, also check out the two videos at the bottom of this page. They are exercises for improving ankle mobility.

Thanks for that, exactly what I need.

The other vids are pretty good as well.

One legged SLDL looks interesting. What's the benefit doing the SLDL via one leg movements....improve imbalances, mobility? Break a plateau?

Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordo

Thanks for that, exactly what I need.

The other vids are pretty good as well.

One legged SLDL looks interesting. What's the benefit doing the SLDL via one leg movements....improve imbalances, mobility? Break a plateau?

I think one of the main benefits is improving knee and ankle stability. As well, it requires your adductors and abductors (Glutes are big here) to fire like crazy so you don't tip over. Another advantage is that you don't have to place such a great load on your spine in order to provide adequate resistance for adaptation. Unilateral exercises are generally more functional as well.

Posted by: Squaggleboggin

If ATG squatting hurts, don't do it; if it doesn't hurt, do it and reap the benefits. I do overhead Bulgarian ATG bottom pause squats and my knees don't have any problems; I've been doing one kind of ATG squat or another for a couple years now. Considering I'm seventeen this probably says nothing, but I always like to throw that in there because it's fun to say.

Posted by: Gordo

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Gave it a try last night. A little humbling when doing the movement slow and controlled. Thanks for the info.

Posted by: ubercoach

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatCatMC

My form is spot on. My genetics are what don't allow me to go below parallel without discomfort. There is ample evidence to support either theory btw.

It is my understanding that parrellel squats are far more stressful on the knee joint than Olympic full range squats all other things being equal.
Ubercoach

Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

http://www.michaelboyle.biz/videos.html

Fatcat, also check out the two videos at the bottom of this page. They are exercises for improving ankle mobility.

That video of the girls doin cleans......

really did it for me.

That video has reminded not to settle....I want a hot girl who powerlifts....cleans, cooks, and is a doctor.

Posted by: P-funk

those are all college girls and one of them (the smaller one I believe he said) is a high school senior. All of them are hang power cleaning 135lbs for sets of 5.

Posted by: AKIRA

God dammit, I wish I could see the vids. These may help me as well.

I am pretty focused on keeping my feet FLAT when doing ATG and I can do sets of perfect heel placement, but I do believe that I have to make it a point to keep them flat. Would this be causing problems? In other words, if my heels arent naturally staying flat, BUT I can keep them flat without too much 'work,' is this something I should still look into or just keep up the "focused form?"

Posted by: P-funk

the videos are of hang cleans not squats.

anyway.....if your heels are coming up it sounds like you are tight in your hip flexors and plantar flexors.

Posted by: AKIRA

Ya know, i confuse hip flexors with hip adductors... What stretches are good for these as I think I AM tight there.

I have that one stretching link filled with stretches, but I cant look at it right now cuz of my work computer. Are there stretches for hip flexors/extens. listed? Which ones (or do they say)?

Posted by: P-funk

yes, they should be listed in there.

Posted by: AKIRA

Hah! I looked at mike's journal and he listed a hip flexor stretch with a link that works on this computer. Seems like basic stretch. Ill add that to my already long list of stretches.

I am thinking this helped my back take a shit...

Anyway, thanks mike for listing your stretch links. Good stuff.

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Question on squatting

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