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Volume: Less is more / The more the better

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Posted by: Witchblade

Volume is a pretty important part of everyone's workout and should be looked after IMO. The thing is, compared to what I see around here a lot, the volume I use is ludicrously high. I'm a bodybuilder and I do exercises with reps in the 6-12 range so my recovery time isn't that high. Add to that that my body recovers rather quickly and the volume could be in the med-high range...

OK, so what's the issue? Just look at this workout:
Front pulldowns 3x10
Bentover barbell row 3x10
Lat rows 3x10
Cable rows 3x10
Reverse curls 3x10
Dumbell curls 3x10
Wrist curls 3x10
Weighted reverse crunch 3x20
Weighted crunch 3x20

I completed the workout in 60mins (and 15mins of warmup before). To be fair, I supersetted the reverse curls and the wrist curls, and the reverse and normal crunches. Also, all the crunching was added in the recovery time of the main compound movements, sort of super/giantsetting. Still, the volume is (too?) high.

Is there something called too high volume if you keep your workout within the hour? Would I actually build more muscle if I lowered the volume?

I'm inclined to think that more exercises in the same period of time => higher intensity => more muscle growth. Wrong?

Thanks for the help in advance!



Posted by: fufu

Well this is my take on it. If you are doing that much volume, you are probably baby-ing yourself so to speak. Lowering the volume and upping the intesnity would be a good idea IMO.

It does seem like alot of volume, but not insanely high.

Volume isn't determined by the time you spend workouting it, it is derived from your sets and reps, I believe.



Posted by: P-funk

be efficient. less is more.

if you give 100% to exercises 1-4 and then exercises 5-8 end up suffering what is the point of doing those exercises?

Learn to balance your routine.

exercise is stress. more is not better.



Posted by: Witchblade

Quote:
Originally Posted by fufu View Post
Well this is my take on it. If you are doing that much volume, you are probably baby-ing yourself so to speak. Lowering the volume and upping the intesnity would be a good idea IMO.
I've thought about that, but I doubt it. I try to go to failure, but I usually end up 1 rep till failure. I usually can't get to the full 10 reps on the second or third set of each exercise either. The day after each workout, I have severely sore muscles. After a workout, I usually feel like collapsing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fufu View Post
Volume isn't determined by the time you spend workouting it, it is derived from your sets and reps, I believe.
Aye, but I've heard it's bad to train for more than 1 hour. If you look at the set/rep volume, it's still very high.

Edit (you guys post fast! ) :
Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
be efficient. less is more.

if you give 100% to exercises 1-4 and then exercises 5-8 end up suffering what is the point of doing those exercises?
Well, you're certainly right about the later exercises suffering. I do compound exercises first so they won't suffer, and the isolation exercises last.

I'm still a bit confused though. True, the later exercises suffer, but they still stress the body right? So eventhough they're not 100% optimal, they're still stressing the body and promoting muscle growth I'd say. Could you elaborate your answer please?

Thanks for the input so far!



Posted by: fufu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post

I'm inclined to think that more exercises in the same period of time => higher intensity => more muscle growth. Wrong?

I believe it is the opposite, but it depends. If you are working at a higher intensity, your RI's will probably be longer, meaning less sets within any given amount of time.

Example: 1RM 350 lbs
You'd have to work at a lower intensity to do 5x5 at 200 lbs within 15 minutes than you would for doing the same amount of sets/reps but at 300 lbs. At 300 lbs you'd probably only be able to do 3x5 within that time period.

Muscle growth isn't determined by only that one factor though.



Posted by: fufu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
I've thought about that, but I doubt it. I try to go to failure, but I usually end up 1 rep till failure. I usually can't get to the full 10 reps on the second or third set of each exercise either. The day after each workout, I have severely sore muscles. After a workout, I usually feel like collapsing.

This could lead you to overtraining and a stop or decline of muscle growth

Aye, but I've heard it's bad to train for more than 1 hour. If you look at the set/rep volume, it's still very high.

It depends what you are doing, you could be doing very taxing movements that require alot of time to recover, you might have fairly low volume though. I believe something detrimental can occur biologically when you you lift weights for too long, I don't know what factors determine that occurance though.

Thanks for the input.
.



Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
I'm still a bit confused though. True, the later exercises suffer, but they still stress the body right? So eventhough they're not 100% optimal, they're still stressing the body and promoting muscle growth I'd say. Could you elaborate your answer please?
yes, they stress the body. But is more stress necessary? Do you know how much heavier compound exercises stress the body? All that in one training session is going to blow you out. That is why we also recommed shorter, more frequent training bouts.



Posted by: P-funk

also, stress doesn't promote muscle growth. You want to have the optimal amount of tension, give your 100% on a few lifts and get out and rest. Rest outside of the gym, not in it.



Posted by: Witchblade

Amazing, I can just keep editing and posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fufu View Post
This could lead you to overtraining and a stop or decline of muscle growth
Reminds me of another question I have. How do you 'spot' overtraining? What signals should I pay attention to?

What I've read of Tom Venuto is that muscle soreness is a good sign, a sign that says "Muscle growth ahead!" I'm sure the article was on this site, but I can't find it right now.



Posted by: P-funk

muscle sorness means nothing. it is a sign that you changed something however. But, in general, some get sore, some don't. Some recover faster then others, some don't. Some tolerate more then others and some need less.

Signs you are overtraining:
- poor sleep
- stalled progress
- amounts lifted start to decline
- sick
- interest in training slacks

there are a lot of signs of overtraining.



Posted by: Witchblade

http://www.ironmagazine.com/article118.html
That's the link I was talking about. What do you think about it?

Fortunately, I don't suffer from any of those signs, except poor sleep. But that's because I suffer (and have suffered from all my life) from a light form of insomnia.



Posted by: fufu

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
also, stress doesn't promote muscle growth. You want to have the optimal amount of tension, give your 100% on a few lifts and get out and rest. Rest outside of the gym, not in it.
I like that.



Posted by: fufu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
http://www.ironmagazine.com/article118.html
That's the link I was talking about. What do you think about it?

Fortunately, I don't suffer from any of those signs, except poor sleep. But that's because I suffer (and have suffered from all my life) from a light form of insomnia.
I'd post about your insomia in the General Health and Awareness forum, you can make your gym life alot better by getting quality sleep everynight.



Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
http://www.ironmagazine.com/article118.html
That's the link I was talking about. What do you think about it?

Fortunately, I don't suffer from any of those signs, except poor sleep. But that's because I suffer (and have suffered from all my life) from a light form of insomnia.
nope.

also, the BURN is not caused by lactic acid. Lactic acid is a by product of anerobic metablosim that the body uses for energy in times when it is needed quickly. the burn is from the excess hydrogen ions agravating nerve endings.



Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
http://www.ironmagazine.com/article118.html
That's the link I was talking about. What do you think about it?

Fortunately, I don't suffer from any of those signs, except poor sleep. But that's because I suffer (and have suffered from all my life) from a light form of insomnia.
just because you aren't suffering from those signs (yet) doesn't mean that you aren't over training or putting your CNS into a frenzy.

Period os higher volume can be used, as I have stated before, as accumulation phases of training, in which you accumulate high amounts of both fitness and fatigue. Alternate that with phases where you unload (or under reach) to allow the fatigue to disipate and then follow it up with an intensificatin phase to allow the new fitness level to manifest itself.

It sounds like you already have your mind made up though so do whatever you want.



Posted by: Witchblade

Hehe, P-Funk, I do my best not to sound too confident, but I'm just really stubborn and I like to think things through over and over before I actually start doing something. I am taking your advice into consideration very seriously.

In fact, I've looked at some other routines and tips and I've decided that you and fufu are right, I should lower the volume.

My new proposal:
Lower to amount of sets from 3 to 2 on
- reverse crunches
- crunches
- reverse curls
- wrist curls
- dumbell curls

Would that be sufficient?



Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post

Period os higher volume can be used, as I have stated before, as accumulation phases of training, in which you accumulate high amounts of both fitness and fatigue. Alternate that with phases where you unload (or under reach) to allow the fatigue to disipate and then follow it up with an intensificatin phase to allow the new fitness level to manifest itself.

.
Is this a preferred method of training in your opinion?? You've mentioned it more than once. (accumulation/intensification.)



Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
Hehe, P-Funk, I do my best not to sound too confident, but I'm just really stubborn and I like to think things through over and over before I actually start doing something. I am taking your advice into consideration very seriously.

In fact, I've looked at some other routines and tips and I've decided that you and fufu are right, I should lower the volume.

My new proposal:
Lower to amount of sets from 3 to 2 on
- reverse crunches
- crunches
- reverse curls
- wrist curls
- dumbell curls

Would that be sufficient?
..........




This is why I usually skip over the "routine critique" threads.



Posted by: Witchblade

Quote:
Originally Posted by PWGriffin View Post
..........




This is why I usually skip over the "routine critique" threads.
...

Do you mean it's still suicide because the volume is too high? Or do you think it's stupid to lower the volume that much?

The smiley seems a bit ambiguous in this case.



Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
...

Do you mean it's still suicide because the volume is too high? Or do you think it's stupid to lower the volume that much?

The smiley seems a bit ambiguous in this case.
With a lot of these threads....not all of them....you either teach someone how to write a program or write it for them. I have no interest in either.


While only doing 2 sets per exercise does lower the volume, it's not exactly what we were thinking.



Posted by: Witchblade

Quote:
Originally Posted by PWGriffin View Post
With a lot of these threads....not all of them....you either teach someone how to write a program or write it for them. I have no interest in either.
What kind of personal trainer are you?

Quote:
While only doing 2 sets per exercise does lower the volume, it's not exactly what we were thinking.
So you think it's better to just skip some isolation exercises and just focus on the compound movements, right?

I'd like to keep the wrist curls and the reverse curls in though. I have very weak forearms at the moment (and small wrists too).



Posted by: Bakerboy

^ If you want stronger forearms you could do exercises like:

Farmer walks, gorillla hangs, and towel chin-up/ pull-ups those exercises give you more bang for your buck because they work your grip and your forearms.



Posted by: Trouble

Well, I know Switchblades avatar well enough to say that CNS complications are indeed the order of the day.

But we also know *why* they are problematic, and it goes beyond training, doesn't it, my gorgeous friend?

You are traveling in the wrong direction. Less is more. Reduce the intensity, spare the CNS and tweek the more readily responsive type I fibers until you can get your oxidative stress recovery and energy storage mechanisms back in hand.

For that, lifestyle changes are in order. We've danced around this issue on other forums. Whenever you're ready, we can discuss what needs to be done to enhance your recovery.

Your threshold for CNS overload is quite low, a facet of hardwiring and history. plus your job.

If you aren't the bearer of this unique avatar that I know so well from another forum, please ignore this post.



Posted by: Witchblade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
Well, I know Switchblades ... [snip] ...

If you aren't the bearer of this unique avatar that I know so well from another forum, please ignore this post.


My nickname is Witchblade, the chinese gauntlet legend, not Switchblade, the hollywood action movie plane. I think you have mistaken me for someone else. Oh, and my signature is a joke, just to be sure.



Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by PWGriffin View Post
Is this a preferred method of training in your opinion?? You've mentioned it more than once. (accumulation/intensification.)
Well, I mean this is how the body works. Do some reading on the 2 factor theory of recovery. It makes sense.

In general there are a few periods of training that I like to go through:

periods of conjugate training where I am working to increase one biometer while trying to maintain the others.

periods of concurrent training where I am working to increase more then one biometer at a time (can be undulating periodization).

and they all can fall under the back drop of accumulation/intensification or they can just work on building over a series of weeks, backing off and then building up again. the back off is where you allow the fatigue to disipate and then instead of intensifying, you just ramp up volume again.

There are many ways you can do things. I don't know that I prefer anyone over any other. In the end, it will take many things to make it all work out.

like louie simmons says.....everything works. but nothing works forever.



Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
Hehe, P-Funk, I do my best not to sound too confident, but I'm just really stubborn and I like to think things through over and over before I actually start doing something. I am taking your advice into consideration very seriously.

In fact, I've looked at some other routines and tips and I've decided that you and fufu are right, I should lower the volume.

My new proposal:
Lower to amount of sets from 3 to 2 on
- reverse crunches
- crunches
- reverse curls
- wrist curls
- dumbell curls

Would that be sufficient?


in the grand scheme of things i don't know that lowering the sets from 3 to 2 on such small exercises like those are actually going to make a world of difference.

you need to post your entire routine so that people can help you revise it.



Posted by: SuperFlex

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
OK, so what's the issue? Just look at this workout:
Front pulldowns 3x10
Bentover barbell row 3x10
Lat rows 3x10
Cable rows 3x10
Reverse curls 3x10
Dumbell curls 3x10
Wrist curls 3x10
Weighted reverse crunch 3x20
Weighted crunch 3x20

I'd lose one row exercise and hit lower back, but other than that you train pretty much like I do. I train hard all the way through too. Each initial set isn't very intense, but the final set is... I also don't train biceps with back. If you're on a push, pull, leg routine I'd say it looks great aside from too many rows.



Posted by: P-funk

I would change the rep ranges too. why keep everything at 3x10? Work some exercises for strength, other exercises in a high rep reange. Work at different intensities. Some would say....train for myofibril hypertrophy and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy in the same session.



Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
What kind of personal trainer are you?
one who makes a living doing this and doesn't work for free.



Posted by: CowPimp

In terms of the compound stuff, I think that is a reasonable amount of volume for a pulling day. I'd lose a bunch of the isolation crap, but the rest is reasonable in my opinion. None of it involves working at a very high intensity. So, assuming he doesn't achieve failure on every sinlge set, I think his CNS will probably be handling the stress just fine.



Posted by: Witchblade

OK, here's the entire program. I'm using a push/pull/legs program, training one day and resting the next, repeating the program without regard to what day it is. Goal: bodybuilding. I've done this program for a month now and I've taken a week off last week to unload. I'm planning to do this program for another month or so and then make a new program with low reps, 5-6 on the compound and 6-8 on the isolation. After that something with high reps, 12-15. (Or would it be better to include various rep ranges already?)

Day 1, Pull:
- Front pulldown 3x10
- Bentover barbell row 3x10
- Cable row 3x10
- (Optional, if I still feel fit) Lat rows 3x10
- Dumbell curls 3x10
- Reverse barbell curl 3x10 supersetting into
- Wrist curl 3x10
In rest intervals I do:
- Weighted crunches 3x20
- Hanging leg raise 3x20

Day 3, Push:
- Bench press 3x10
- (Machine/Weighted) Dips 3x10
- Incline bench press 3x10
- Military press 3x10
- Dumbell shoulder press 3x10
- Kickbacks 3x10
- Fly's 3x10

Day 5, Legs:
- Squats 3x10
- Deadlift 3x10
- Front squat 3x10
- Deadlift (sumostyle) 3x10
- Seated leg curl 3x10
- Standing calf raise 3x10

Day 7, Repeat day 1.

Pretty high volume, but I think it works. Should I lower the volume? If so, which exercises to skip or which to lower the amount of sets on? I could change all the isolation work to 2 sets per exercise.

I guess it just turned into a critique my workout thread...

Anyway, thanks for the help so far, especially P-Funk. There ain't many forums where you can get so much help so quickly. You guys are great. Kudos.



Posted by: Trouble

Well shit, you may not be Colin, but you sure as hell have the same problems.

CNS burnout on day 3. As P-funk points out, using the same rep range for most of your exercises isn't a good idea. I would redistribute the heavier load of Day 3 and the shit filler exercises of Day 1.

Day 2: sure hope you have a nice tight shoulder girgle - potential overuse issue here.

If you posted this regimine for feedback, this thread discussion might become generally useful to the forum.

P-funk adroitly points out:

"also, the BURN is not caused by lactic acid. Lactic acid is a by product of anerobic metablosim that the body uses for energy in times when it is needed quickly. the burn is from the excess hydrogen ions agravating nerve endings."

*clapping wildy* 10 points for p-funk and his astute point.

Insert Tab A into Slot B: when the buildup of protons (hydrogen ions) and other oxidative stress byproducts exceeds a threshold level - so that the mop up antioxidants are unable to curtail severe lipid peroxidation in membranes - BINGO - you get more aggressive cell damage as a result.

Pain and inflammation. Get enough infllammation, and fluid flow in and out of the affected joints is limited and since CNS damage has also occured - you are "stiff" as well. Muscle fibers no longer "slide" (elongate and shorten) correctly in these heavily damaged muscle fibers.

The difference between someone who gets sore constantly and someone who doesn't (all other factors held equal for training and conditioning) is the amount of reducing equivalents formed that nullify local oxidative damage.



Posted by: CowPimp

I'm going to agree that you should beware of shoulder issues. That's a lot of pressing. In my opinion, most people should be doing more pulling than pressing. I usually try to balance out my compound pulling and pressing, then add in a little extra isolation pulling and rotator cuff exercises for good measure.

Looks like a lot of useless crap on pull day. Wrist curls are ghey. They probably won't do much for you. Do some farmer's walks instead of the last two exercises if you want to train your grip, improve core strength, and engage your upper back all at the same time.

I think crunches are generally lame. I kind of like hanging leg raises, but do you need the ab work? I sometimes have my clients do some just to placate their need for a burn in the midsection, but I generally throw stabilization and rotational movements at them instead.

Your leg day looks fucking killer. I'm all about pounding your lower body, but using 4 bilateral compound exercises that allow for the implemntation of very heavy loads is going to be brutal. Alternating load patterns, or concurrently implementing different patterns, would help so that you don't accumulate too much of one form of fatigue.



Posted by: Trouble

OOhh, CP did a much better job of elaborating on program weak points than I did! What he said!

Specify / elaborate please:

- abs stabilization and rotational movements

- Alternating load patterns, or concurrently implementing different patterns, would help so that you don't accumulate too much of one form of fatigue.

Thanks, CP.

(that avatar is fricking hilarious!!)



Posted by: Witchblade

Quote:
Originally Posted by CowPimp View Post
I'm going to agree that you should beware of shoulder issues. That's a lot of pressing. In my opinion, most people should be doing more pulling than pressing.
Would it help to use machines for the military and shoulder presses to prevent shoulder injuries? I could also do the dips on a machine, though I'd be doing sets of 10+ reps then because the machine doesn't go higher than 65KG.

Quote:
Looks like a lot of useless crap on pull day. Wrist curls are ghey. They probably won't do much for you. Do some farmer's walks instead of the last two exercises if you want to train your grip, improve core strength, and engage your upper back all at the same time.
I don't know much about farmer walks. Is it just walking around with heavy weights? How long should I do them; in sets? They work the entire forearms right? I think I'm going to scrap the wrist curls and the reverse curls and replace them with farmer walks, as several people suggested. Should I just do them in the training, doesn't it take long?

Quote:
I think crunches are generally lame. I kind of like hanging leg raises, but do you need the ab work?
Well, I need something to work the upper abs. But you're right that I don't really need ab improvement, but I do want maintenance.
Like you advise your clients, I do ab exercises in the rest intervals of the other exercises. I could probably lower the volume though, say 2 sets per exercise?

Quote:
Your leg day looks fucking killer. I'm all about pounding your lower body, but using 4 bilateral compound exercises that allow for the implemntation of very heavy loads is going to be brutal. Alternating load patterns, or concurrently implementing different patterns, would help so that you don't accumulate too much of one form of fatigue.
Aye, when you see me limping you know I've done leg day yesterday. I could try to do some leg presses etc. instead of 1 or 2 of the 4 compound lifts, but at my gym all the leg machines are usually taken. Almost nobody does squats or deadlifts or bentover rows except on machines. All afraid to look dorky I suppose.


Thanks again for all the help.



Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
Would it help to use machines for the military and shoulder presses to prevent shoulder injuries? I could also do the dips on a machine, though I'd be doing sets of 10+ reps then because the machine doesn't go higher than 65KG.
It would be more an issue of muscular imbalances around the shoulder girdle. Using machines would probably make things worse, because you would largely be reducing the activity of stabilizer muscles.


Quote:
I don't know much about farmer walks. Is it just walking around with heavy weights? How long should I do them; in sets? They work the entire forearms right? I think I'm going to scrap the wrist curls and the reverse curls and replace them with farmer walks, as several people suggested. Should I just do them in the training, doesn't it take long?
You can do them for time or distance. I like distance just because I don't have to think about it. I just know that when I get from point A to B and back, or whatever path I choose, I can make the horrible burning stop. Heh.


Quote:
Well, I need something to work the upper abs. But you're right that I don't really need ab improvement, but I do want maintenance.
Like you advise your clients, I do ab exercises in the rest intervals of the other exercises. I could probably lower the volume though, say 2 sets per exercise?
Deadlifts and squats, as well as any other ground based structural compound lift, work the entirety of the rectus abdominus and various others muscles in the trunk. Stabilization and rotational movements also engage the rectus abdominus plenty. The problem is a lot of people overwork their rectus abdominus; synergistic dominance is often the result. That means other muscles become weaker, and you core becomes less stable as a result.


Quote:
Aye, when you see me limping you know I've done leg day yesterday. I could try to do some leg presses etc. instead of 1 or 2 of the 4 compound lifts, but at my gym all the leg machines are usually taken. Almost nobody does squats or deadlifts or bentover rows except on machines. All afraid to look dorky I suppose.


Thanks again for all the help.
Honestly, I would probably drop one of the deadlift variations. That's great you want to smash your posterior chain, but between good ol' back squats, deadlifts, and leg curls, your posterior chain will get enough work. Alternating loading patterns in conjunction with this would probably do you well. Again though, it's great to see your enthusiasm working your lower body is high. That's awesome.



Posted by: Witchblade

Revised program:
- Removed the wrist curls, the lat rows and the seated leg curls (machine taken usually anyway).
- Replaced the reverse curls by barbell curls.
- Lowered the volume of some exercises to 2 sets instead of 3.
- Implemented farmer walks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
Day 1, Pull:
- Front pulldown 3x10
- Bentover barbell row 3x10
- Cable row 3x10
- Dumbell curls 2x10
- Barbell curls 2x10
In rest intervals I do:
- Weighted crunches 2x20
- Hanging leg raise 2x20

Day 3, Push:
- Bench press 3x10
- Weighted Dips 3x10
- Incline bench press 3x10
- Military press 2x10
- Dumbell shoulder press 3x10
- Kickbacks 3x10
- Fly's 3x10

Day 5, Legs:
- Squats 3x10
- Deadlift 3x10
- Front squat 2x10
- Deadlift (sumostyle) 2x10
- Standing calf raise 3x10
In rest intervals I do:
- Farmer walks 3x

Day 7, Repeat day 1.
OK now? Sorry to keep bugging you guys.



Posted by: P-funk

what about altering rep ranges?



Posted by: Bakerboy

You have no unilateral leg work: step ups, bulgarian squats, lunges etc.

If you want to do so many different exercises (2 types of squats, 2 types of Deadlifts) you should go to a full body or upper/ lower type program.



Posted by: Witchblade

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
what about altering rep ranges?
I'm planning on periodization. So after a month I'm going to do a few weeks of 5-6 reps, then 8-12 (like now, 10 is the goal) and then 12-15. I'm not sure how long I should do those though, I'm thinking of 2 weeks. Would that work?

Unilateral work, is that really necessary? If so, I'll add in bulgarian squats somewhere. Deadlifts, squats, bulgarian squats, stiff legged deadlifts and standing calf raises: would that be a proper leg workout?

About altering the exercises. I already do it a bit, different types of dumbell curls each week and a slightly different grip on exercises like the bench press. Instead of incorporating 2 variants of the deadlift and the squat, I could just alter the position a bit each week in the above mentioned leg program. Would that be better?



Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
I'm planning on periodization. So after a month I'm going to do a few weeks of 5-6 reps, then 8-12 (like now, 10 is the goal) and then 12-15. I'm not sure how long I should do those though, I'm thinking of 2 weeks. Would that work?

Unilateral work, is that really necessary? If so, I'll add in bulgarian squats somewhere. Deadlifts, squats, bulgarian squats, stiff legged deadlifts and standing calf raises: would that be a proper leg workout?

About altering the exercises. I already do it a bit, different types of dumbell curls each week and a slightly different grip on exercises like the bench press. Instead of incorporating 2 variants of the deadlift and the squat, I could just alter the position a bit each week in the above mentioned leg program. Would that be better?
Some kind of lunge would be a great unilateral leg exercise.



Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
I'm planning on periodization. So after a month I'm going to do a few weeks of 5-6 reps, then 8-12 (like now, 10 is the goal) and then 12-15. I'm not sure how long I should do those though, I'm thinking of 2 weeks. Would that work?

Unilateral work, is that really necessary? If so, I'll add in bulgarian squats somewhere. Deadlifts, squats, bulgarian squats, stiff legged deadlifts and standing calf raises: would that be a proper leg workout?

About altering the exercises. I already do it a bit, different types of dumbell curls each week and a slightly different grip on exercises like the bench press. Instead of incorporating 2 variants of the deadlift and the squat, I could just alter the position a bit each week in the above mentioned leg program. Would that be better?
screw linear periodization. to much is lost.

go with some form of undulating model:

day1- 5-6 reps
day2- 12-15
day3- 8-10


or

go with some sort of program were you work two different rep ranges in the same workout.



Posted by: Witchblade

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
screw linear periodization. to much is lost.

go with some form of undulating model:

day1- 5-6 reps
day2- 12-15
day3- 8-10
Oh I like that! I'd want to stay in the 6-12 zone mostly so I think I'm going to implement:
1st cycle: 8-12
2nd cycle: 5-6
3rd cycle: 8-12
4th cycle: 12-15
5th cycle: repeat 1st cycle.

As for your second suggestion, would it be good to do Str, hyperthropy and endurance all in the same exercise? Set 1: 5-6, set 2: 8-12, set 3: 12-15.



About lunges: Good idea. Leg day, revised again: Squat, Deadlift, Lunges, Standing calf raises, straight legged deadlifts or seated leg curls if available. Perfect now?

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it greatly.



Posted by: P-funk

I would do it in the same exercise. I meant like this:

bench press- 3x5-6
incline DB press- 3x8-10
tricep pressdown- 3x12-15

done



Posted by: CowPimp

You could also do some alternating periodization, such as what GoPro implements with P-RR-S. He alternates between weeks of 8-15 and weeks of 4-6 repetitions. There are a lot of options.

Also, I still say you do too much pressing and not enough pulling. You have 14 sets of pressing movements and 9 sets of pulling movements.



Posted by: Witchblade

I'm gonna go with P-Funk on alternating rep ranges. Looks like more fun.

Still too much pressing, hm... Scrap the military presses? My front delts are way more developed than my rear ones anyway. Or add in the lat rows again? Add 1 set of variant grip pulldowns?

Heh, making a good workout is harder than I thought.



Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
I'm gonna go with P-Funk on alternating rep ranges. Looks like more fun.

Still too much pressing, hm... Scrap the military presses? My front delts are way more developed than my rear ones anyway. Or add in the lat rows again? Add 1 set of variant grip pulldowns?

Heh, making a good workout is harder than I thought.
You just have a lot of choices and you are learning how to balance and periodize a program at the same time. Once you have that down, writing your next program won't be so difficult...



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