Sciatic Nerve [Forum Archive]

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Sciatic Nerve

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Posted by: AKIRA

It has been made apparent that my back problem isnt muscular but a "sciatic nerve" problem.

A 'chiro' took my legs and pulled them to see if my legs were aligned and he said one was shorter than the other. He says this causes this nerve to be pinched resulting in this 'pinched' pain.

Truth is, I havent done any lower body work in over 2 months. I have stretched through some lower back pain that is now gone completely, BUT this sciatic nerve shit is worse than ever!

My question is, how can I see my way through it? Keep stretching? I do self-myofacial release on my lower back, hams, glutes, and IT band. I stretch my hams, glutes, lower back, and hip flexors (actively and static-ly).

This doesnt seem to be helping. I can keep getting adjusted by the chiro, but it adds up in $$.

Anyone conquered this problem before?

Posted by: P-funk

what is the reason that your legs get out of alignment and why is one longer then the other? I don't trust most Chiro's.....most treat the symptom and not the problem..."yea, just come in every week for an adjustment." ...

Posted by: AKIRA

Well, he didnt recommend to keep coming in, he basically just said I was fuckign up somewhere in my routine.

The big thing is that I dont do any lower body work and havent for quite some time. My overhead presses are now limited as well. During this time I havent seen any dr until Monday. So thats 2 months of rest, stretching, SMR, advil, and no "adjustments."

The only thing I can think of whats causing this is my sleep? This is all brand new to me and I am lost with this shit.

Posted by: CowPimp

When types of activities cause you sciatic nerve to become irritated?

How do you sleep? (Back, side, stomach)

Posted by: tucker01

So no alignment problems with your spine. I would think the problem with alignment would lead back to the pelvis.

Posted by: NeilPearson

I had sciatic pain. I talked to two nurses before seeing a doctor and then saw a doctor. All 3 gave me the same thing to try...

800 mg Ibuprofen (Advil is good but you probably aren't doing 800 mg) every 8 hours for 4 days. It is an anti-inflammatory. Once the internal swelling around the nerve is gone, it should allow the area to heal.

In my case it didn't work... so they did MRI and found I had a herniated disk. He put me in physical therapy. That pretty much consisted of core strength exercises on an exercise ball and traction. At the end of it, the pain was still there but gradually went away over the next few months.

From what I read about sciatic pain, it usually goes away on its own... but it usually takes at least a year for that to happen.

Posted by: P-funk

find a specialist.....A good physical therapist will be able to give you something to do.

Posted by: Prince

I highly recommend an MRI to make sure nothing else is going on in there, i.e. a disc problem.

Posted by: CowPimp

Yeah, a disc problem is nothing to fuck around with. Herniated discs causing sciatica are pretty common really.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilPearson

I had sciatic pain. I talked to two nurses before seeing a doctor and then saw a doctor. All 3 gave me the same thing to try...

800 mg Ibuprofen (Advil is good but you probably aren't doing 800 mg) every 8 hours for 4 days. It is an anti-inflammatory. Once the internal swelling around the nerve is gone, it should allow the area to heal.

In my case it didn't work... so they did MRI and found I had a herniated disk. He put me in physical therapy. That pretty much consisted of core strength exercises on an exercise ball and traction. At the end of it, the pain was still there but gradually went away over the next few months.

From what I read about sciatic pain, it usually goes away on its own... but it usually takes at least a year for that to happen.

No I dont take that much as of now. I take 400mg 3 times a day. I can try to increase it for a while to test it out.

A herniated disk? Oh shit. Thats not good. I dont have insurance and not a lot of money so an MRI is kinda tough right now. I dont want to half-ass this, but I really dont have a choice right now, so I am exploring my options.

Did physical therapy come after...SURGERY?

Posted by: ponyboy

Sciatica is often a problem with the piriformis being too tight. I would highly doubt if you have a disc herniation - you would know if it was that severe. Possibly a bulged disc.

Try this: Lie on your back and bring your knee (the bad side) towards your chest until it is pointed towards the ceiling. Then gently pull it across your body to stretch the piriformis (should feel a pull in the side of your butt). It should help relieve symptoms if you keep at it.

I also suggest using a foam roller/medicine ball to release any trigger points in your glute area. Also google a technique called nerve flossing - once your symptoms have subsided it can help keep the nerve from getting bound up and irritated again.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Sciatica is often a problem with the piriformis being too tight. I would highly doubt if you have a disc herniation - you would know if it was that severe. Possibly a bulged disc.

Try this: Lie on your back and bring your knee (the bad side) towards your chest until it is pointed towards the ceiling. Then gently pull it across your body to stretch the piriformis (should feel a pull in the side of your butt). It should help relieve symptoms if you keep at it.

I also suggest using a foam roller/medicine ball to release any trigger points in your glute area. Also google a technique called nerve flossing - once your symptoms have subsided it can help keep the nerve from getting bound up and irritated again.

Thats actually a newer stretch that I have added into my stretching routine this week and YES it is tight! Very tight! When I do my left leg its not NEARLY as tight as my right. This is good news.

Ill google nerve flossing when I am at a better computer and I have used the foam roller, but its hard to pin point problems in my glutes. In fact, I thought I did find a problem area during my SMR (SMF?) session one day, but it turned out to be my BONE!

Oh and CowPimp, I sleep on all sides. I guess I toss and turn.

Posted by: NeilPearson

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

A herniated disk is the same thing as a bulged disk... just a different name for the same thing.

I never got surgery for my herniated disk. I just did the exercises I was supposed to. I still have the herniated disk... the pain has just went away. I do light squats (around 15-20 reps). I know I herniated mine while doing leg extensions (this is quite common too I found out later)... so I don't do those anymore at all. Now that the pain is gone. A lot of the core exercises they gave were things like crunches on an exercise ball. The one thing consistant with all these exercises is they wanted me to pull up on my abs (actually maybe even lower than the abs) and keep this flexed. It actually took a while to get used to the movement, it was kind of strange. The way he described it was to flex the same muscles you would as if you were trying to stop peeing in mid stream. It is more like pulling your abs up than it is flexing them. He told me that crunches without doing this wouldn't work the muscles that I needed to stabilize my spine in the area that I needed.

"I would highly doubt if you have a disc herniation - you would know if it was that severe"

... I had no idea that I had a herniation. And I now can't tell that I ever had an issue.

If it is less severe the 800 mg Ibuprofen may fix it up. If not I would try these kind of crunches and any other types of core body strength movements you can think of while flexing with the trying to stop peeing method. If that still doesn't do it, it may just be a matter of time. I know I had a fairly miserable year because of mine.

Of course if you can afford to see a doctor and get physical therapy... that would be ideal.

My pain started on the back of my leg, fairly high up and gradually moved down lower and lower.... finally into my calf and eventually just went away.

Is the pain constant? Where in the leg is it?

Mine was a shooting pain that only happened when I switched positions from standing to sitting or sitting to standing.

Posted by: NeilPearson

They also had me doing nerve flossing which helped.

Sit down and crouch over hanging your head. Slowly extend your leg while raising the leg. This nerve goes right from your foot to your head. Doing this movement should floss the nerve through the spine.

Also try stretching it by doing a similar movement. The only difference is you start with your head up and drop it down while you extend the leg.

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

I would highly doubt if you have a disc herniation - you would know if it was that severe. Possibly a bulged disc.

not much difference, typically a disc is referred to as a buldge rather than herniated based on the severity, but they are basically the same thing.

not true, I estimate that I had my herniated disc for at least a year maybe close to two years, I had no clue until I finally went in for an MRI and even my chiropractor was shocked at the severity.

if you cannot afford the MRI and the pain is tolerable stop putting stress on your back. I would recommend you stop all weight lifting for at least 2 weeks to see if the pain subsides, also 1-2 doses of Advil (800mg's) per day, and ice your back, that really helps.

Posted by: ubercoach

is invariably caused by impingement. That's pretty well established. You've been given some sage advice, particularly from ponyboy, "Sciatica is often a problem with the piriformis being too tight.", then he went off the deep end with the incorrect definition of bulging and herniated, which are, as Robert DiMaggio correctly pointed out, synonyms. Ponyboy was right on about the piriformis causing sciatic nerve problems. Anytime you do sit ups with your feet being held down, as soon as your body can (at about 15 deg off the floor) it will engage the strongest muscle for the job, the piriformis. The piriformis is the strongest muscle in your body for it's size. When it hypertrophies (grows from being worked), the belly of the muscle may press the sciatic nerve and tada, you've got misery!
While I generally find Pfunk's advice quite good he's wrong about chiropractic. Like any professionals there are good and bad. I have the best chiropractor in the area as part of my medical support for my athletes. He works wonders. A good chiro may be able to provide some relief through adjustment. The trick is finding a good one. Anything that will increase the space where the nerve is being impinged is going to provide some relief from your pain. The key is the location of impingement.
If it is the disc, simple kick overs may be of help. Lying on you back, with hands behind head and upper body relaxed, bring your legs up to where your calves are parallel to the floor, toes pointed at ceiling, knees bent 90 deg, your thighs are pointing straight up, back completely flat on floor. Now GENTLY bring your feet back, arching your back, belly button curling toward sternum, knees toward chest 'till your feet are over or past (if possible) your head. If the movement causes pain, STOP! (You will anyway, because it'll be a very SHARP! pain).
Return slowly to start position, as though there's a wall to stop your feet, thighs perpendicular to floor, toes pointed at ceiling calves parallel to floor, back flat. Do NOT let your legs go too far! Legs kept in strict L shape, if you go too far the lower back arches, which is not helpful.
If you can do this without irritating the nerve (trust me, you'll know if you are), keep doing them, 20 reps if possible. By activating the abs you'll allow your back muscles to relax a little, and with continued effort, you may be able to open the space between the vertebrae and relieve some of the pressure on the disc and the irritated sciatic nerve.
There is research validating the efficacy of the exercise, it will increase the space between vertabrae. The question is, when? Depends on several factors, so be patient and keep doin' your kick overs.
Lying in the same position, with something to support the lower legs, knees 90deg back completely flat, on a bed of ice for 3 20 min sessions with 20 min in between will reduce swelling and inflamation. Combined with a couple of sprays of Stopain, a topical analgesic (in my opinion, the best) and hopefully, you should be reasonably comfortable and able to sleep.

On a personal note, I have a bilaterally fractured 5th lumbar vertbrae and the fusion surgery did not work so it's still hypermobile. Strong abs, kickovers and a great chiro have allowed me to avoid surgery for 20 years. And I still periodically annoy my athletes by outlifting them.

I hope this helps, please keep us abreast of your progress,
Ubercoach

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

While I generally find Pfunks advice quite good he's wrong about chiropractic. Like any professionals there are good and bad.

Should have rephrased that. I hate when I speak in absolutes and get burned.

I had a great Chrio in NYC that did all kinds of ART for me etc....

There are terrible people in every profession. What I should have said was that you need to find someone that is a specialist in the problem that you are having and understands what is wrong. The answer "you are messing up in your routine somewhere" from a professional (doctor no less) is not good enough for me.

Posted by: ubercoach

'cause your so freakin' BIG! I imagine adjusting you would be quite a workout for the poor chiro tryin' to wrestle yer big ass around!

Ubercoach

Posted by: P-funk

LOL.....5'5" and 180lbs would hardly qualify me as "big"....I am a midget with broad shoulders so I guess that goes a long way.

Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

LOL.....5'5" and 180lbs would hardly qualify me as "big"....I am a midget with broad shoulders so I guess that goes a long way.

5'5 and 180 is fucking big. lol. Especially if you are even relatively lean.

Posted by: ubercoach

and Mike Burgener and I will make you a Champion Weightlifter!

Ubercoach

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubercoach

and Mike Burgener and I will make you a Champion Weightlifter!

Ubercoach

lol.....this guy out here that saw me training at the gym said the same thing...he competed in some olympic trials (he is in his 50s)......

I don't know if I can be a championship anything!

Posted by: ubercoach

Never underestimate my power!

Seriously, NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOURSELF!

We produce alot of champions, all of whom thought they couldn't get there from here. That's why I get pissed at genetic determinists. No one really knows what anyone's potential is untill you give it your best effort.
You are the perfect physical type for Weightlifting. Come to SD for a weekend and train with us at the Regional Training Center. What our athletes do in training will blow you away!

Think "Casey Burgener- 173 kilo snatch, 210 kilo C&J US National Champion at
6'1" and 250lbs!

Ubercoach

Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubercoach

Never underestimate my power!

Seriously, NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOURSELF!

We produce alot of champions, all of whom thought they couldn't get there from here. That's why I get pissed at genetic determinists. No one really knows what anyone's potential is untill you give it your best effort.
You are the perfect physical type for Weightlifting. Come to SD for a weekend and train with us at the Regional Training Center. What are athletes do in training will blow you away!

Think "Casey Burgener- 173 kilo snatch, 210 kilo C&J US National Champion at
6'1" and 250lbs!

Ubercoach

I wish I could afford that kind of training. Only thing I can hope for is to further my education and work for someone like you or P. Then I could benefit from the knowledge and experience of great coaches everytime I go to work/workout!! Man talk about a wet dream.....

from the sweat....err.....from the awesome workouts....yeah.

And the people who tout genetics as a limitation or an excuse to do something stupid because everyone is "different." Yeah that pisses me off.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubercoach

is invariably caused by impingement. That's pretty well established. You've been given some sage advice, particularly from ponyboy, "Sciatica is often a problem with the piriformis being too tight.", then he went off the deep end with the incorrect definition of bulging and herniated, which are, as Robert DiMaggio correctly pointed out, synonyms. Ponyboy was right on about the piriformis causing sciatic nerve problems. Anytime you do sit ups with your feet being held down, as soon as your body can (at about 15 deg off the floor) it will engage the strongest muscle for the job, the piriformis. The piriformis is the strongest muscle in your body for it's size. When it hypertrophies (grows from being worked), the belly of the muscle may press the sciatic nerve and tada, you've got misery!
While I generally find Pfunk's advice quite good he's wrong about chiropractic. Like any professionals there are good and bad. I have the best chiropractor in the area as part of my medical support for my athletes. He works wonders. A good chiro may be able to provide some relief through adjustment. The trick is finding a good one. Anything that will increase the space where the nerve is being impinged is going to provide some relief from your pain. The key is the location of impingement.
If it is the disc, simple kick overs may be of help. Lying on you back, with hands behind head and upper body relaxed, bring your legs up to where your calves are parallel to the floor, toes pointed at ceiling, knees bent 90 deg, your thighs are pointing straight up, back completely flat on floor. Now GENTLY bring your feet back, arching your back, belly button curling toward sternum, knees toward chest 'till your feet are over or past (if possible) your head. If the movement causes pain, STOP! (You will anyway, because it'll be a very SHARP! pain).
Return slowly to start position, as though there's a wall to stop your feet, thighs perpendicular to floor, toes pointed at ceiling calves parallel to floor, back flat. Do NOT let your legs go too far! Legs kept in strict L shape, if you go too far the lower back arches, which is not helpful.
If you can do this without irritating the nerve (trust me, you'll know if you are), keep doing them, 20 reps if possible. By activating the abs you'll allow your back muscles to relax a little, and with continued effort, you may be able to open the space between the vertebrae and relieve some of the pressure on the disc and the irritated sciatic nerve.
There is research validating the efficacy of the exercise, it will increase the space between vertabrae. The question is, when? Depends on several factors, so be patient and keep doin' your kick overs.
Lying in the same position, with something to support the lower legs, knees 90deg back completely flat, on a bed of ice for 3 20 min sessions with 20 min in between will reduce swelling and inflamation. Combined with a couple of sprays of Stopain, a topical analgesic (in my opinion, the best) and hopefully, you should be reasonably comfortable and able to sleep.

On a personal note, I have a bilaterally fractured 5th lumbar vertbrae and the fusion surgery did not work so it's still hypermobile. Strong abs, kickovers and a great chiro have allowed me to avoid surgery for 20 years. And I still periodically annoy my athletes by outlifting them.

I hope this helps, please keep us abreast of your progress,
Ubercoach

Thanks for this info!! I definetly am going to try these kick overs when I get home. I almost want to call out now.

Now if I feel that sharp pain, is that a real bad sign? And if there isnt any, just keep doing it?

I know I should see a doc and get an MRI and that all of this shit until then is shooting into the dark, but I just cant afford it right now. I just started a new job in May and my health insurance wont kick in until JANUARY. I guess the company is making sure I am worth it.

Posted by: fUnc17

akira, im having MAJOR sleeping problems as well. it fucking sucks. i was put on muscle relaxers and anti inflammitories. once the pain is gone im going to do some PT. i cant wait for this shit to go away, really messes with your head

Posted by: ubercoach

I'm sorry to say sharp pain's a bad sign. Actually a good guide to doing anything is:
Pain is not good, sharp pain is Ma Nature's way of letting you know you've got a serious problem, you're hurting yourself, so STOP IT!

Ubercoach

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

I wish I could afford that kind of training. Only thing I can hope for is to further my education and work for someone like you or P.

Come out to AZ. I am pretty open to talking shop with anyone or going over things. I like that stuff. I used to do trainer education in NYC at the gym I was working for. I did classes on program design and advanced training concepts for the trainers. Sometimes, they would ask me to put them through workouts to teach them some stufff, sometimes they would want to shadow me training some of my clients, etc.....I am really into learning and education and everytime I taught a class or worked with someone, I learned someting new. It was a win win.

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubercoach

Never underestimate my power!

Seriously, NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOURSELF!

We produce alot of champions, all of whom thought they couldn't get there from here. That's why I get pissed at genetic determinists. No one really knows what anyone's potential is untill you give it your best effort.
You are the perfect physical type for Weightlifting. Come to SD for a weekend and train with us at the Regional Training Center. What our athletes do in training will blow you away!

Think "Casey Burgener- 173 kilo snatch, 210 kilo C&J US National Champion at
6'1" and 250lbs!

Ubercoach

haha....i would love to!

I know all about it. I have read pretty much everythign on burgenger's site. casey is a monster!

Posted by: FrankT

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

haha....i would love to!

I know all about it. I have read pretty much everythign on burgenger's site. casey is a monster!

Could you give us a link? Sorry to be a lazy.

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankT

Could you give us a link? Sorry to be a lazy.

lazy son of a....

http://www.mikesgym.org/

Posted by: ubercoach

The iliopsoas is mainly a hip flexor and weak lateral rotator, and shortening will result in pulling the iliac bone anterior-inferior, increasing the lumbosacral angle and increasing lumbar lordosis.

Through the years many doctors within chiropractic and medicine have stressed the importance of the iliopsoas in relation to low back pain and viscera of the human body.1-8,10,11 Michele1 wrote a 550 page textbook, Iliopsoas, in which he relates psoas spasm to pelvic tilt, exaggerated lumbar lordosis, compensatory dorsal kyphosis, back pain, sacroiliac dysfunction, degenerative hip arthrosis, degenerative disc disease, spondylolysis, spondylolisthesis, scoliosis, malposture, and meralgia paraesthetica, among others. He stated, "Any and all defects of the spine and the hip joint structures should be evaluated in terms of disturbance of function of the iliopsoas."

Chronic psoas shortening and weakness may occur due to sleeping in the fetal position, exercise programs emphasizing repetitive hip flexion, and sedentary life styles. Most sports and daily activity emphasize a forward orientation and repetitive psoas contraction without offsetting stretching.2 Sypher3 feels that since the psoas is close to the axis of flexion and extension of the lumbar portion of the spine, it must compensate for imbalance between anterior abdominal muscles and posterior spinal muscles to stabilize the lumbar spine. Goodheart feels that psoas weakness is more common than hypertonicity.4 Nachemson feels that a chronically contracted psoas adds to the gravitational forces on the lumbar discs.5

The Psoas Syndrome

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We must constantly strive to develop a functional examination that touches all the bases. Since I wrote about the piriformis syndrome in the June 21 and July 19 issue of Dynamic Chiropractic I have received numerous letters relating to increased results. Just as examination of the piriformis should be a routine part of our examination, so should examination of the iliopsoas.
The iliopsoas is mainly a hip flexor and weak lateral rotator, and shortening will result in pulling the iliac bone anterior-inferior, increasing the lumbosacral angle and increasing lumbar lordosis.

Through the years many doctors within chiropractic and medicine have stressed the importance of the iliopsoas in relation to low back pain and viscera of the human body.1-8,10,11 Michele1 wrote a 550 page textbook, Iliopsoas, in which he relates psoas spasm to pelvic tilt, exaggerated lumbar lordosis, compensatory dorsal kyphosis, back pain, sacroiliac dysfunction, degenerative hip arthrosis, degenerative disc disease, spondylolysis, spondylolisthesis, scoliosis, malposture, and meralgia paraesthetica, among others. He stated, "Any and all defects of the spine and the hip joint structures should be evaluated in terms of disturbance of function of the iliopsoas."

Chronic psoas shortening and weakness may occur due to sleeping in the fetal position, exercise programs emphasizing repetitive hip flexion, and sedentary life styles. Most sports and daily activity emphasize a forward orientation and repetitive psoas contraction without offsetting stretching.2 Sypher3 feels that since the psoas is close to the axis of flexion and extension of the lumbar portion of the spine, it must compensate for imbalance between anterior abdominal muscles and posterior spinal muscles to stabilize the lumbar spine. Goodheart feels that psoas weakness is more common than hypertonicity.4 Nachemson feels that a chronically contracted psoas adds to the gravitational forces on the lumbar discs.5

Bachrach et al.2 states that the patient with a psoas syndrome may present with pain at the thoracolumbar, lower lumbar or sacroiliac area, sometimes referring pain to the knee. They state that the pain is never midline and is often relieved by sitting. According to Cailliet6 the anterior thigh pain associated with an acute scoliosis due to a disc herniation is often due to a compensating iliopsoas spasm splintering the spine away from the irritation. With a unilateral psoas spasm, the patient might be flexed forward with the lumbar spine drawn downward, forward, and rotated to the opposite side. The hip might be externally rotated with the foot everted.1

Functional examination may reveal, with the patient standing and the examiner contacting both PSISs, a higher PSIS on the contracted side and a more forward movement of the PSIS on the side of involvement during lumbar flexion. Durianova7 examined 30 patients with psoas spasm and found pain in the low back, in the shoulder region, sacroiliac joint, and radiation in the L5/S1 segments. He found pain on lumbar extension, trunk rotation, and hip flexion, with spinal segmental involvement at the thoracolumbar and craniocervical junction. With the patient prone, hip extension would be decreased and painful.

Patient lies at end of table with uninvolved right hip flexed. Examiner extends the left knee and flexes left hip as far as patient will allow. Examiner's left hand is placed on patient's left ASIS in order to palpate for anterior rotation of the innominate. Examiner than allows the left leg to drop (towards extension). If examiner palpates ASIS movement before the leg reaches 30 degrees from the horizontal, there is significant hip flexor tightness. The hip should be able to extend 20 to 30 degrees below the table with ASIS movement.
Treatment of a shortened iliopsoas is to stretch the muscle. (Fig. 2) A painless contract/relax method may also be used. Examination of the iliopsoas for trigger points may be valuable. Trigger points may be located just lateral to the rectus abdominis up to the xyphoid process, at the femoral triangle or at the iliac fossa where the iliacus originates. Back pain is usually felt vertically along the extensor muscles parallel to the spine. Stretching and splaying can be done as positioned in Fig. 2 from the xyphoid down the psoas to the thigh, except that the thigh should be slightly abducted and the knee internally rotated to create optimum stretch.8

A home stretching exercise (Fig 3) may be utilized maintaining the stretch 20 to 30 seconds for 10 to 20 reps as often as possible during the day. The normal side could be raised to a height of two to 2-1/2 feet on a stool depending on the height of the patient. The shortened side can be extended about three feet behind with the foot in slight internal rotation. The patient can also put his hand on the posterior buttock of the involved side and apply added pressure. The patient should definitely feel the psoas stretch, possibly a feeling of discomfort, but not pain.

The psoas muscle should be tested for strength with the patient supine and the hip flexed approximately 30 degrees. Examiner resists against the anterior distal femur. There may be pain in psoas tendinitis or iliopectineal bursitis and weakness with pain in avulsion fracture of the lesser trochanter, psoas rupture or upper femur metastasis. Weakness without pain may incicate L1, L2 or L3 nerve root involvement. Cyrias12 mentions that chronic psoas strain may remain for years unless treated by friction massage below the inguinal ligament, medial to the sartorius.
Patients who do sit-ups from a supine to a full-flexed position are really strengthening their iliopsoas rather than their abdominal muscles. They are creating an increased lordosis during the sit-up. The crunch method of sit-ups with the spine flat on the ground and the knees flexed over a chair is the recommended method.

During the first 30 degrees of hip flexion there is little or no activity in the iliopsoas. After that range there is greatly increased activity.9

References
Michele AA: Iliopsoas. Springfield, Ill: Charles C. Thomas, 1962.
Bachrach RM, Micelotta J, Winuk C: The relationship of low ba
ck pain to psoas insufficiency. J Orth Med. 13:34-40, 1991.
Sypher F: Pain in the back: A general theory. J Intl Coll Surg., 333:718-728, 1960.
Goodheart GJ: Collected Published Articles and Reprints. Montpelier, Williams County Publishing, 1969.
Nachemson AL: Electromyographic studies on the vertebral portion of the psoas muscle. Acta Orthopaedica Scandinavica, 37:177-190, 1966.
Cailliet R: Low Back Pain Syndrome. Philadelphia: FA Davis, 84: 1962.
Durianova J: Psoas spasm in the clinical picture of low back pain. In: Lewit K, et al., eds. Rehabilitacia, Proceedings of the IVth Congress Prague: International Federation of Manual Medicine, 1975.
Travell JG, Daita B: Myofascial pain syndromes: The Travell trigger-point tapes, myofascial pain syndromes of the low back and hip. Baltimore, Maryland, Williams & Wikins, Electronic Media.
Basmajian JV, Deluca CJ: Muscles Alive: Their Function Revealed by Electromyography. ed 5. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins, 311: 1985.
Fox EA: Let us consider the importance of psoas muscle contraction. J Natl Chiro Assoc., 26(7):69-74, 1956.
Randeria JP: The role of the psoas muscles in low back pathology. Manuelle Medizin, 4:85-87, 1974.
Cyriax J: Textbook of Orthopaedic Medicine: Diagnosis of Soft Tissue Lesions. ed. 8. London: Bailliere Tindall, 1:389, 1982.
Warren Hammer, M.S., D.C., D.A.B.C.O.
Norwalk, Connecticut

For more info:
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/10/03/25.html

Ubercoach

Posted by: CowPimp

Like pony boy, piriformis syndrome is certainly a possibility. I've been experiencing a bit of that myself recently. I just stretch the shit out of it every time I feel a little something and I'm good to go. It never bothers me when I'm warmed up working out. It usually bugs me when sitting for a bit then getting up. It's pretty mild though.

Posted by: P-funk

that is a good point....

the only thing that I would change is saying the illiopsoas. I would drop the illio (or illiacus) from the name in this case (which you then do after the first sentences anyway, so I don't know what the fuck I am really talking about)...The psoas seems to be the real culprit here because it is the only hip flexor (of which there are 5) that has direct attachment points to the spine. The others (TFL, Illiacus, Sartorius and Rectus femoris) all attach at the illiac crest (shortly after that the psoas joins into the illiacus, hence the name).

A weak psoas will cause one to flex the trunk when they actually need to be flexing the hip (psoas working above 90 degrees of hip flexion).

In her great book Diagnosis and Treatment of Movement Impairment Syndrome's, top noth physical therpist Shirley Sharmann goes through a number of tests for this as well as ways to solve the problem. I tweaked my back today and just doing some easy foam roller on my lumbar and some psaos activation work, I feel a ton better!

Mike Boyle wrote a great article summarizing Sharmman's findings....I am pretty sure I have posted it before but here it is again.

You could be right about the psoas being his problem...It could still be piraformis syndrome though. He would need some manual muscle testing to see what is tight and what is weak to know for sure.

Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Like pony boy, piriformis syndrome is certainly a possibility. I've been experiencing a bit of that myself recently. I just stretch the shit out of it every time I feel a little something and I'm good to go. It never bothers me when I'm warmed up working out. It usually bugs me when sitting for a bit then getting up. It's pretty mild though.

Sounds just like my back!!

If it does ache a little then I can just do a standing hamstring stretch and it's gone immediately....not to say it won't be back...

Posted by: Scary

I had a bulged disk from getting twisted on a jet ski that pinched my sciatic nerve a couple of years ago. The pain was intense and I lost all strength in my right leg. I couldnt stand on the ball of my foot without assistance and my right leg just dragged when I walked. It didnt affect my upper body workout much but lower was out of the question. After a year of stretching, epidurals, etc. I decided to talk to a neurosurgen. 3 days before my appointment for consultation, 85% of the problem just disappeared as I was walking (with my right leg dragging ) to the gym. It is probably at 97% now, not quite as strong in as my left leg/calf and I often get these quick cramps in my right calf that will go away as soon as I put presure on it.

Hopefully yours will disappear on it's own in time.

Posted by: NeilPearson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scary

I had a bulged disk from getting twisted on a jet ski that pinched my sciatic nerve a couple of years ago. The pain was intense and I lost all strength in my right leg. I couldnt stand on the ball of my foot without assistance and my right leg just dragged when I walked. It didnt affect my upper body workout much but lower was out of the question. After a year of stretching, epidurals, etc. I decided to talk to a neurosurgen. 3 days before my appointment for consultation, 85% of the problem just disappeared as I was walking (with my right leg dragging ) to the gym. It is probably at 97% now, not quite as strong in as my left leg/calf and I often get these quick cramps in my right calf that will go away as soon as I put presure on it.

Hopefully yours will disappear on it's own in time.

This is quite common with sciatic pain... it eventually seems to go away (although it can take a long time)

Posted by: AKIRA

Ubercoach, I have done the kickovers you prescribed and there is no pain. There is pain, however, if I straighten my leg instead of leaving it at 90 degrees.

So case in point, when I lie on my back, knees bent, if I extend my right leg straight out and slowly raise it, theres my pain. If I hold it, the pain subsides until I raise it higher.

Those kickovers felt like knee raises, but on the ground. I did 2 sets of 20 reps today pretty slowly. My abs were screaming, but thats not what I was paying attention to.

My stretch page is gone. I only know of ONE hip flexor stretch and ONE psoas stretch. Anyone have a site with other stretches that can be work friendly?

Ubercoach, that last long responce will be read once I ge to work, I am late as it is and I want to be able to read it without being rushed.

Thanks again guys. This shit is so fucking annoying I either want to cry or throw one of these trainers that wear makeup and dye their hair through a wall. (theyre men)

Posted by: ponyboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilPearson

A herniated disk is the same thing as a bulged disk... just a different name for the same thing.

Sorry guys, but not true. I agree the symptoms are similar but a bulging disc has not ruptured yet, wheras a herniated disc has. A herniated disc has ruptured the outer casing and can be from moderate to quite severe depending on the degree. A bulging disc is just that - bulging out and pressing on the nerve. I agree that they are similar but they are not the same thing.

Posted by: NeilPearson

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Not according to my doctor.

The following is taken from http://www.spine-health.com/topics/c...ce/diff01.html

"There are many different terms to describe spinal disc pathology and associated pain, such as “herniated disc”, “pinched nerve”, and “bulging disc”, and all are used differently by different healthcare practitioners. Unfortunately, there is no agreement in the healthcare field as to the precise definition of any of these terms."

So it really depends on who you ask...

Posted by: Prince

Spinal disc pain terminology varies

There are many different terms to describe spinal disc pathology and associated pain, such as “herniated disc”, “pinched nerve”, and “bulging disc”, and all are used differently by different healthcare practitioners. Unfortunately, there is no agreement in the healthcare field as to the precise definition of any of these terms.

http://www.spine-health.com/topics/c...ce/diff01.html

Posted by: Prince

LMAO, we posted the same damn thing!

Posted by: AKIRA

Holy shit, I just read that long reply from ubercoach and can only understand 1/3 of it!

Posted by: fUnc17

AKIRA - here are some psaos and piriformis stretches, make sure you read the explanations, dont just try to mimic whats in the photo.

they work extremely well, once your done doing each one 3 times each leg you feel incredibly relieved and your glutes feel nice and stretched, ready to go. Most of all it kills the pain (creates space between the nerve and whatever is pinching it)

after the stretches, then try the sit ups ubercoach explained.

http://www.jaxmed.com/massage/pirformis_stretches.htm

http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/str...cle-000998.php

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Holy shit, I just read that long reply from ubercoach and can only understand 1/3 of it!

what part didn't you understand?

read my post, 2 down from his....I summed it up and then read the Boyle article I posted which sums up my post even more.

Posted by: fUnc17

to tighten the abdominal muscles as a solution for this stressful situation is a misguided effort. What is needed is to improve the responsiveness of the psoas and glutei minimi, which includes their ability to relax.

That is a great description of whats going on, and would also explain why my knees have been popping more than usual, why my low back cracks (temporary arthritis).

This one thing can trigger so many other things, to a certain extent i think it retriggered my asthma. havnt weezed in over 5-6 years, all of a sudden i was weezing and short of breath the other day, and my back located near my lungs (right below neck) cracks often as well. (if i do a shrug for instance or take a deep breath my back instantly cracks)

"High abdominal muscle tone from abdominal crunches interferes with the ability to stand fully erect, as the contracted abdominal muscles drag the front of the ribs down. Numerous consequences follow: (1) breathing is impaired, (2) compression of abdominal contents results, impeding circulation, (3) deprived of the pumping effect of motion on fluid circulation, the lumbar plexus, which is embedded in the psoas, becomes less functional (slowed circulation slows tissue nutrition and removal of metabolic waste; nerve plexus metabolism slows; chronic constipation often results), (4) displacement of the centers of gravity of the body's segments from a vertical arrangement (standing or sitting) deprives them of support; gravity then drags them down and further in the direction of displacement; muscular involvement (at the back of the body) then becomes necessary to counteract what is, in effect, a movement toward collapse. This muscular effort (a) taxes the body's vital resources, (b) introduces strain in the involved musculature (e.g., the extensors of the back), and (c) sets the stage for back pain and back injury."

This describes what P was getting to earlier on, maybe even in my thread. stating doing endless crunches can actually be counterproductive (dragging the rib cage down, interfering with breathing and overpowering the psaos in stablizing and controlling the trunk and lower back)

This is important, in that it states what ISNT the problem and points to what IS the problem and that is a stable relationship between the abdominals and the psaos. I knew my core wasn't the problem, it was extremely tight hips, flexibility issues. my abs become so strong, combined with not stretching the psaos or piriformis, dragged my entire trunk down, including my rib cage and pinched the sciatic nerve causing even more problems. This goes to show how important this really is (can happen to anyone)

If im going to continue to do the amount of compound lifts that I do, im going to have to stretch and strengthen the shit out of my psaos, pirifmormis and entire hip flexor to deal with my strong abdominals

"When the psoas and the abdominal muscles counterbalance each other, the psoas muscles contract and relax, shorten and lengthen appropriately in movement. The lumbar curve, rather than increasing, decreases; the back flattens and the abdominal contents move back into the abdominal cavity, where they are supported instead of hanging forward."

Posted by: ponyboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilPearson

Hey - I can cut and paste too!

Posted by: Trouble

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Holy shit, I just read that long reply from ubercoach and can only understand 1/3 of it!

His post seemed comprehensible. As you said, you will have to read this long thread carefully, its packed with a lot of technical information.

I think I will sticky this thread - its quite useful.

Posted by: NeilPearson

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Hey - I can cut and paste too!

I was just showing that others (including websites) don't have a clear definition of herniation and buldging... They can and are used for the same thing. Just because your definition differs doesn't mean the rest of the worlds does.

But I can understand you trying to get in the last word there... it's tough to admit when you are wrong.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by fUnc17

AKIRA - here are some psaos and piriformis stretches, make sure you read the explanations, dont just try to mimic whats in the photo.

they work extremely well, once your done doing each one 3 times each leg you feel incredibly relieved and your glutes feel nice and stretched, ready to go. Most of all it kills the pain (creates space between the nerve and whatever is pinching it)

after the stretches, then try the sit ups ubercoach explained.

http://www.jaxmed.com/massage/pirformis_stretches.htm

http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/str...cle-000998.php

After a google search I found these exact stretches! Ill have to wait until I have time and space to do these movements.

I also read the WHOLE article on the LAST reply you had. I cant believe this shit involes even the feet.

And as far as not understanding ubercoach's reply, I wasnt trying to be humorous, I really meant it was hard for me to understand. You gotta remember, I am not in school for this stuff yet, so some terminology throws me off into raised eye-brow land. However, when I clicked on the link, I saw it had pictures along with the info which helped dumbasses like me.

Now if they were just pop-up pictures...

Posted by: P-funk

you have to figure out if it is a tight psoas or a weak psoas that is the cause of your problem though.

Posted by: ubercoach

Quote:

Originally Posted by fUnc17

This is a perfect example of what this forum can do...help each other!
This is peer reviewed first class info that can be used right now to alleviate another forum member's pain and suffering. Just reread the posts, so many of us have and continue to suffer from sciatica. It is important for us to help and support each other in rational efforts. I will not help anyone who admits they are doing 'roids, because I think it's irrational and ignorant. I do my homework every day to stay on top of the strtength and conditioning field and I'm happy to share what I've learned to assist others in getting where they want to go. My athletes are trained with a philosophy that extends to concern for what my athletes lives will be like when they are 50 and 60 and 70 years old. You may just want to look good naked now, but when you're 40 your thing may be tennis, or surfing, or mountain climbing. You have to be healthy to run and play with the other kids, at any age.

What's really cool is when we exchange and discuss these training methods and modalities to try to make sense of all the data on the care and feeding of the most complex thing in the universe...the human body. This forum can be a tremendously valueable resource if everyone tries to contribute. Together we can analyse the data submitted and come to a consensus as to what is the most healthy way to train, for sports, Weightlifting, Powerlifting, body building, whatever. So much smarter and more efficient than trying to do it all on your own.

Pfunk, Akira and others set a great example of jumping in to help out with excellent info, thanks for those links Akira, much appreciated.

Knowledge is Power - Share the Power
Ubercoach

My apologies. It was fUnc17 that posted the stretching links - Thanks fUnc17

Posted by: ponyboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilPearson

I'm not wrong.

Definition of a bulging disc:
Sometimes the disc does not actually rupture but protrudes due to a weakening of the outer part that lets the inner fluid to push against the weakened wall and cause a bulge – this is called a bulging disc

Definition of a herniated disc:
A herniated disc is a rupture of the outer casing of the disc. The inner substance of the disc then protrudes.

All I said is there is a difference. I agree they are used for the same thing more often than not and give the same symptoms but one is technically different than the other.

Posted by: P-funk

Look....

A bulge or a slipped disk is when the disk does not rupture but protrudes out and presses the nerves of the interverabral foramen. However, even though some call this a bulged or slipped disk (that is what it is), this is still level 1 of a herniated disk (or herniated nucleus Pulposus). They are the same thing.

There are four levels of herinated disks (according to Kineseology of the Musculoskeletal system:Foundations for Physical Rehabilitation by Donald Neumann....as well as according to other texts I have seen).

Level 1- Protrussion- Displaced Nucleus Pulposus remains within the annulus fibrosus, but may create a pressure bulge on the spinal cord (what some, like ponyboy, would call a bulging disk....but, it still can be reffered to as a herination in clinical settings)

level 2- Prolapse- Displaced nucleus pulposus reaces the posterior edge of the disc, but remains essentially cofined within the outer layer of the annulus fibrosus.

level 3- Extrusion- Annulus fibrosus ruptures, allowing the nucleus pulposus to completely escape from the disc into the epidural space.

Level 4- parts of the nuscleus pulposus and fragments of the annulus fibosus become lodged within the epidural space.

Now quit arguing about semantics.

Posted by: Trouble

This link might clarify:

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz...iated_disk.jsp

One definition. Four classifications of disk pathology.

Semantics. Thing is, as ubercoach sez, is we need to bring together a compendium of good advice.

Pat and I can rebuild (reorganize it, remove extraneous comments) it into a proper sticky afterwards.

Those who will read it, probably have at attained at least the first level of disc pathology. Key is to provide advice to forestall worsening. For the more advanced cases, to point to options for professional care.

Maintenance to avoid disc pathology can be offered here. Chances, are, by the time the member or lurking audience in hyperspace goes looking, they're at level 1 or 2 already.

Damned good thread.

Posted by: AKIRA

From the links that I have read and studied, it all comes back to the term "piriformis syndrome" that seems to completely define my problem.

It truley is a "pain in the ass" and certain stretches alleviate the pain as certain movements bring on the pain.

In the jaxmed.com link, she states that sitting, walking, and squating can cause this nerve to be pinched by the piriformis since both sit in a "foramen." Well shit, if thats all it takes to get this nerve pinched, I am in big trouble!

This morning, my glutes felt worse, so it leads me to believe that most of this pain is brought on from my sleeping position. Only, I never remember what position I am in when I go to sleep nor when I wake up. I am almost positive I toss and turn. Either way, could this be the #1 cause?

Oh yeah, and once a person has this sort of problem(s), is he or she cursed with it from here on out?

Posted by: maniclion

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

From the links that I have read and studied, it all comes back to the term "piriformis syndrome" that seems to completely define my problem.

It truley is a "pain in the ass" and certain stretches alleviate the pain as certain movements bring on the pain.

This morning, my glutes felt worse, so it leads me to believe that most of this pain is brought on from my sleeping position. Only, I never remember what position I am in when I go to sleep nor when I wake up. I am almost positive I toss and turn. Either way, could this be the #1 cause?

Oh yeah, and once a person has this sort of problem(s), is he or she cursed with it from here on out?

I've been dealing with same pain for 8 month's now right now I'm taking methadone and lyrica 3 times a day and still feel pain thruogh that yet MRI, Xrays, Bone Scans show nothing mechanichally wrong, I am seeing a neurologist right now.

My symptoms are pain in my upper glute, around to the side of my hip and down the side/back of my thigh somedays it can jump my calf and sting my ankle and side of my foot.

If I don't have anytrhing for pain it just preoccupies my entire existence and wakes me at night. Mine started like yours and I ignored it thinking I'm young and tough then I trained through it and kept moving large objects and working hard and then bam I ended up like this so until you see a doc or any little slightest twinge goes away don't risk anything

Heed my warning cause if it gets worse and no one can find whats wrong you will be hating life.

Posted by: Trouble

Couple questions for Manic and Akira:

Do you both have older matresses (older than 6 yrs)?

Do you both have a tendency to lie on your sides?

Do you naturally sleep curled up?

What I suggest:

Get a new matress if its older than 6-7 yrs old.

make a small back-side support roll of a small soft dishtowel, just enough to give you lordosis support at your natural beltline when you lie on your back or side. Use it at night.

It probably feels worse in the morning because of the relatively long period of inactivity - not because sleeping per se makes it worse.

If patrick peeks in on this thread: I want to know if using a twice daily application of an intensive healing cream like Taumeel on the trigger point for this pain will have a beneficial effect.

Posted by: P-funk

if you sleep on your side place a pillow between your knees. if you sleep on your back, place a pillow under your knees.

if you spend hours sitting at a desk, place a small pillow behind your back.

i think any type of trigger point work or myo-fascial work (ART, massage, foam roll) is a great thing. it can help to activate the GTO to allow the muscle to relax. The tissue needs to be inhibited. Healing cream can be good too.....I wouldn't use it all the time because sometimes it can give the illusion that everything is "okay" when it is just masking the pain and then we (us type A's) go out and start deadlifting heavy and wonder why we can't walk for the next 10 days.

Posted by: Trouble

If the pain and tightness are on side, supporting the small of the back - from the side or while on the back, makes sense - it avoids flexion impingement of the nerve trunk. Chiro taught me this. Its mentioned earlier in the thread (in a website) as a temporary treatment.

Pillow beneath/between knees was also key, and I forgot clean about that point.

Need to use the cream for at least a couple months - no illusions about it healing quick, but this is a chronic irritation, they heal slowly.

Excellent feedback, thoughtful as usual. Thanks, sir.

Posted by: ponyboy

Another good movement is called a sloppy push-up. Lie on your stomach and place your hands underneath your shoulders. Keeping your belly on the ground gently push up until you feel compression in your lower back. Hold this position, lower and repeat.

I have found that for people who are at desks all day this can help keep proper lumbar spinal alignment which is key when dealing with lower back pain.

Posted by: P-funk

you mean the yoga stretch....the cobra??

Posted by: ubercoach

It has been my experience that the astronaut position, enough pillows under your legs to make your back completely flat while lying supine, is a great way to relieve pressure on the nerve and allow the erectors amd other tight back muscles to relax a bit. If you can sleep like that, great, most of us can't.
So put a pillow between your legs and lay on your side...
If the sciatic nerve's involved, a combination of topical analgesic (Stopain, my recommendation) and ice (20 min on, 20 min off x 3), may help relieve some pain, but remember, once you've really irritated the sciatic, it may stay irritated for sometime even after the impingement has been relieved, so don't get too discouraged if pain persists.
Generally, sitting is one of the worst things you can do, just makes things worse.
Be extremely circumspect about any and all stretches. Self diagnoses is an imprecise science, (I know that my xray vision hasn't worked worth a damn since I turned 40). There are several things that can cause your symptoms, including disc involvement. Anything that puts pressure on the bulging portion of the disc can cause it to rupture. Quite undesirable, so be very careful and attentive to what hurts and what don't.
Unfortunately, you usually need films for a proper diagnoses of this sort of thing.

Recommended reading: http://www.dolfzine.com/page481.htm

Ubercoach

Posted by: AKIRA

Applying ice and using self-myofacial release (either using a foam roller or a tennis ball)...do I want to apply these to the pain areas?

Only reason I ask, is if this nerve is being pinched elsewhere and triggering pain in my glute.

I tried a stretch that takes forever to get into due to extreme stiffness. Its called the 90-90(?) Anyway, instead of my back leg being in a 90 degree angle, I try to straighten it (but its still bent). I try lowering myself to my other 90 degree leg (which is in front of me), bringing my chest to my foot. This shit is pretty hard! Id say I have another 8 inches to go until I could touch my chest to my foot.

As far as stretching this Psoas, I never really feel it being stretched. Or maybe I do...I always feel my hamstrings, glutes, and sometimes my quads being stretched, but not so much in the lower back area.

Posted by: P-funk

I don't understand the stretch you are talking about but don't try to force yourself into position. that can lead to other injuries.

why would you expect to feel your lower back when you stretch your Psoas? Also, are you sure that it is tight? Or is it weak?

You need to go to a specialist to determine these things.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

I don't understand the stretch you are talking about but don't try to force yourself into position. that can lead to other injuries.

why would you expect to feel your lower back when you stretch your Psoas? Also, are you sure that it is tight? Or is it weak?

You need to go to a specialist to determine these things.

Well, what I mean is not necessarily my lower back, but when I want to stretch my hamstrings, I do a stretch and feel it stretch. Same goes for other muscles, but this psoas? I just dont feel anything really. I do feel other muscles being stretched, but again, theyre just the glutes and hamstrings.

If I can attach the image, I will...lets see.. (await an edit)

When I stretch, I come to a stiff point, but it goes away rather quickly then I can stretch more. I dont really force myself, it actually just happens naturally.

Yeah, i know. I am shooting in the dark here.

Posted by: P-funk

do the stretch were you are taking a knee to stretch your psoas.....

like this

By punching in "psoas stretch" to google I also found this. This is actually one of the exercises that Sharmman suggests for people with lower back pain (provided that it doesn't hurt them) as a way to strengthen pelvic stability. She recommends a drawing in of the abdomen, while extending one leg out (by sliding it across the floor) slowly.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

do the stretch were you are taking a knee to stretch your psoas.....

like this

By punching in "psoas stretch" to google I also found this. This is actually one of the exercises that Sharmman suggests for people with lower back pain (provided that it doesn't hurt them) as a way to strengthen pelvic stability. She recommends a drawing in of the abdomen, while extending one leg out (by sliding it across the floor) slowly.

Heh, I do those stretches too. I usually start out my stretching routine with the second link you provided and end with the stretch in the first link.

Now in the first link, I feel that in between my legs. This is a hip flexor stretch, no? (Psoas=hip flexor?)

The second link, however, falls into the whole "I feel it stretching my hamstrings" category. Maybe I am doing it wrong..?

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

the first link is a stretch for the psoas, yes, it is a hip flexor, along with the illiacus, TFL, sartorius and rectus femoris.

The second link, if you are really tight and stiff in your psoas, you will feel it on the leg that you are extending out in front of you, that is where the stretch is happening. You are talking about feeling the hamstring on the leg you are hugging because you are pulling it into hip flexion.

Like I said....you need to determine if you are weak in the psoas or if you are tight and over active in the psoas....if you are weak and it is under active, trying to stretch it wont get you anywher....in fact it will be counterproductive, you would need to get it firing properly again.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Aw hell!

Ok well how does one work the psoas?

This might sound like a newbie question, but honestly working out the psoas isnt exactly a common thread found on IM!

Ill google it now...

Posted by: P-funk

for fucks sake man....I posted the article on how to test and train it a few pages back!!!

are you reading your own thread?

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

for fucks sake man....I posted the article on how to test and train it a few pages back!!!

are you reading your won thread?

Oh ok. Sorry, I got 3 web pages open, phone call, food, Family Guy, and currently holding a shit.

But thanks for a friendly reply!

Posted by: P-funk

if i were watching family guy and holding a shit, I would be exhibiting the same concentration problems....no worries.

Posted by: AKIRA

OK youre talking about the Mike Boyle article? I couldnt access it at work is why, but I am home now...

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

OK youre talking about the Mike Boyle article? I couldnt access it at work is why, but I am home now...

well print it out and read it on the shitter....tis where I do my best thinking.

Posted by: Trouble

Where is my popcorn! What a great thread! Its got its own humerous commercial breaks...

Congrats to Akira on his 1000th (a grand) post!

(I also do my best technical reconnoiter on the shitter)

Posted by: AKIRA

Thanks Trouble!

Ok I tried both tests from Mr. Boyle's article...

I brought my right knee to my chest and let go. A SLIGHT drop happened, but I kept my leg above 90 degrees and held it for quite some time (15 sec with ease). My left leg was the same story (even the slight drop), but there was a cramp where my quad meets my pelvis. Wasnt too bad.

The other test, well what is a plyo box? I put my foot on a desk (above 90 degrees) then lifted it above the desk. Both legs did that just fine, no cramps.

No leaning back or forward, chest was straight up.

Posted by: P-funk

no leaning back? no hip hike on the plat leg side to compensate?

the fact that you cramped could be indicative of overcompensation.

it is hard to assess yourself, hence the reason you need someone else to view you from a 3D perspective:

front
lateral
posterior

so, if you aren't weak there, then you need to know if you are tight there.....overhead squat test? you need someone to assess you.....

also, the psoas might not be your problem...it could be tightness in other hip flexors, it could be tightness in the hamstring, the erctor spinae, the thoracolumbar fascia...

all of those problems can be seen by someone who can do a functional movement screen on you and assess the problems. Again, looking at a 3D view.

Do you work with any trainers that can administer either the gray cook functional movement screen or an overhead squat and single leg squat assessment? Not just someone who can watch you do them, but, actually administer the tests.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

no leaning back? no hip hike on the plat leg side to compensate?

the fact that you cramped could be indicative of overcompensation.

it is hard to assess yourself, hence the reason you need someone else to view you from a 3D perspective:

front
lateral
posterior

so, if you aren't weak there, then you need to know if you are tight there.....overhead squat test? you need someone to assess you.....

also, the psoas might not be your problem...it could be tightness in other hip flexors, it could be tightness in the hamstring, the erctor spinae, the thoracolumbar fascia...

all of those problems can be seen by someone who can do a functional movement screen on you and assess the problems. Again, looking at a 3D view.

Do you work with any trainers that can administer either the gray cook functional movement screen or an overhead squat and single leg squat assessment? Not just someone who can watch you do them, but, actually administer the tests.

Yeah, ive been wanting someone to do a fitness assesment on myself. Ive tried to do them ON myself, but its not good enough even with mirrors.
The trainers at Golds almost all suck...except maybe 2. Ill see if they can check me for imbalances and such. I wonder how much theyd charge for 5 min of work..?

Oh yea, tonight I was looking around for a tennis ball to 'sit' on and instead forund a softball! This hurt like a bitch on my right glute, but all my stretches were TONS easier. Even my normal pains are better..!

Then again, maybe its the Aleve..

Posted by: P-funk

a softball is to hard. be careful with your fascia.....or, in the word's of Bill S. Preston Equire "Be excellent to yourself", folled by Ted Theodore Logan "Party on...Dudes"...Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

You have an NASM certification so you should be pretty versed in the overhead squat and single leg squat test by now and know the in's and outs of it. You have no trainer that you sit and talk shop with that can do these types of tests? Don't you work with someone that can help you out in this manner?

I can't see the trainers charging you for a movement screen.

Posted by: AKIRA

This week I was planning on cardio and stretching. WELP. ALL GONE. I was doing the stretch where you lie on the floor in a supine position, place the left ankle over the right knee and pull the right knee to the chest. For some reason, I took my hands off my right knee and brought my knee to my chest using my right leg strength! POP! I was in pretty bad pain. I got my happy ass out of the gym and drove home.

The drive sucked. Very uncomfortable and getting out of the car...HAH. I got inside and laid back down on the floor on my back. My pain now went all the way down to my foot. I went ahead and called the chiropractor the gym recommended. I scheduled an appointment with him (he specializes in sports medicine; used to work AT the gym doing rehab and such with trainers, athletes, and patients). Getting into the car was HELL. I couldnt bend over at all and I was screaming in pain and frustration.

When I finally got there, I had to stand, not sit, as it was almost unbearable to sit in a chair. When I got in there he asked me to stand on my toes for a second. Done. Then he checked my reflexes. Theyre fine. Then he took me into a room where I lied pronated, I mean, face down

where he placed ice on my lower back and muscle activators. My muscles started tingling and I remained there for 15 min.

I then went into the chiro's room and thats where he put me on that bench (face down again) and put pressure on all places of my spine while moving my legs up then down, then more down, then repeat.

When I left, I didnt feel any better and he said I wouldnt because the sciatic nerve was so inflammed that nothing was going to work. This also made it hard for him to say what exactly is wrong with me at this point since its so bad.

I didnt sleep well that night. Nothing but Advil and Hydrocodone to help.

Yesterday, the pain is almost gone, but I am limping everywhere cuz my toes and above my ankle on the outside of my shin are almost numb. Constant tingling. I can only sit in a chair for just over 1 min until it becomes unbearably annoying. At the dr. office, he did the same shit as before, only he extended my spine along with taking my legs up and down, down again.

Today I got some sleep and went back to him. Pain is almost gone, unless I raise my leg. I am still limping and I have to get up every paragraph or so just to write this.

SO! Needless to say, I know what I did wrong with the stretches and its now no longer a choice to workout AT ALL. This really sucks and I am scared that it isnt going to get better. 800mg advil 3 times a day along with some herbal shit the doc had handy. He says I am making progress but only slightly and its only been 3 days.

Hey, but at least I am at a doctor now! Oh yeah, first visit was $95. Every other day its been $50. Normal pricing?

Posted by: P-funk

price sounds normal.

how agressive were you stretching yourself?

where you hurting at all before you started stretching?

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

price sounds normal.

how agressive were you stretching yourself?

where you hurting at all before you started stretching?

Hurting? Eh, some stiffness. Nothing really out of the normal.

I just really want to the numbness to go away. People are saying it will.

Posted by: fUnc17

AKIRA, not to rain on your parade, but most of my pain is gone. thanks to R-E-S-T and anti-inflammitories. Today was the first day i really started stretching, foam rolled, did some core stabilizer work and reverse hypers. I feel 1000x better, everything feels nice and loose.

I found when I was resting that sitting down made the pain worse, especially in poorly designed chairs. Make sure you have good sleep posture, especially if you sleep on your sides (stick something between your knees). I basically laid on the couch with a pillow between my knees and that was it... being on the computer aggrevated the nerve more.

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by fUnc17

AKIRA, not to rain on your parade, but most of my pain is gone. thanks to R-E-S-T and anti-inflammitories. Today was the first day i really started stretching, foam rolled, did some core stabilizer work and reverse hypers. I feel 1000x better, everything feels nice and loose.

I found when I was resting that sitting down made the pain worse, especially in poorly designed chairs. Make sure you have good sleep posture, especially if you sleep on your sides (stick something between your knees). I basically laid on the couch with a pillow between my knees and that was it... being on the computer aggrevated the nerve more.

I am glad you brought this up.

I too suffer from some back pain. Prolonged sitting makes it so much worse. I hate sitting for the most part. I find it uncomfortable and akward. I try and stand ever 15-20min and move around and stretch. I sometimes will kneel infront of the computer instead of sit as well. I sleep with a pillow between my knees if I lay on my side and a pillow under my knees if I lay on my back. If I sit on the couch or a chair with a seat back I place a small pillow behind my back also.

Posted by: AKIRA

I actually have been sleeping with my foam roller under my knees on the floor.

The dr. today said that an MRI is becoming possible because of the fact that I can hardly feel my left foot. He said hes been administiring treatment for a patient that has a "bulged disc and a pinched nerve." He said teh worst case scenario is if the disc was herniated (theres a difference in definition to him), but because of the fact that hes been able to move my spine in more ways than most of his patients can leads him to believe that I am not that bad. But then again...id like to feel my fucking foot!

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

I actually have been sleeping with my foam roller under my knees on the floor.

The dr. today said that an MRI is becoming possible because of the fact that I can hardly feel my left foot. He said hes been administiring treatment for a patient that has a "bulged disc and a pinched nerve." He said teh worst case scenario is if the disc was herniated (theres a difference in definition to him), but because of the fact that hes been able to move my spine in more ways than most of his patients can leads him to believe that I am not that bad. But then again...id like to feel my fucking foot!

yes, there are different levels of hernia. I posted about this a few pages back (the 4 levels).

when are you getting the MRI?

Posted by: fUnc17

Have you gotten an xray yet? If not, you should do that before getting an MRI to see if you even have a herniation. MRI may not even be neccesary.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

yes, there are different levels of hernia. I posted about this a few pages back (the 4 levels).

when are you getting the MRI?

He wants to wait until next week to see if I have progress...which I am not having really.

He said he can get me an MRI for a cash patient at around $650.

He hasnt even mentioned an xray.

Posted by: ponyboy

No offense to anyone here but stretching alone isn't going to fix a problem as severe as some of the ones being described in this thread. Stretching will help alleviate symptoms but there are also some fundamental problems likely with movement patterns and exercise technique that need to be addressed.

If you have chronic pain or recurring pain, this is something that really needs to be fixed through corrective exercise and changing the way that you lift/move to make sure the problems don't recur. Just my .02 but I speak from personal experience as well as years of addressing these issues with others.

Posted by: ubercoach

ponyboy doesn't go far enough. When you're hurtin' as bad as Akira you need medical care and films, starting with xrays, in order to arrive at a accurate diagnoses.

The amazing thing is more of us aren't bed ridden. The lower lumbar is a fragile place and discs are like glazed three day old jelly filled donuts. Something as simple as mild dehydration can cause major problems given the right (bad) circumstances.

Ubercoach

Posted by: P-funk

true.

the other problem is that AKria has been fighting with this for a number ofm onths now. He never really went to the docotr and just tried to get over it on his own.

The key to anythign is that if it hurts. Rest it. If after 2 weeks it still hurts....I think it is time to go and see someone who can give you an honest assessment.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

true.

the other problem is that AKria has been fighting with this for a number ofm onths now. He never really went to the docotr and just tried to get over it on his own.

The key to anythign is that if it hurts. Rest it. If after 2 weeks it still hurts....I think it is time to go and see someone who can give you an honest assessment.

Kick me while I am down, why dont ya!

But youre right. I am down. I wouldnt had been, but this is all new to me as I have never been to a chiro before and not to mention the sorry fact that I wanted to ...not be a "tough guy," but I didnt think it was all that serious since the pain I had prior to my condition now was very tolerable. This is the beauty of hindsight.

I feel like that 16 year old boy I was years ago denying the fact that my gfriend was cheating on me. Shouldve listened.

In any case, I am now obsessed with this shit and annoyed. My "sugar-momma" said shed pay for an MRI, but I dont like the fact that a woman is going to pay $650 for me. Then again, is this my pride jumping in for the third time?

Posted by: AKIRA

Oh yeah, some people have said that once "you go to a chiro, you have to keep going back."

That shit true?

Posted by: P-funk

I don't know how true that is.

You are going to need some real treatment though.

Posted by: ubercoach

A Chiro is like any other discipline, some are good, some not so good. My Chiro's been treating me for over twenty years. Just like any professional, when you find a good one, if you've any sense you maintain a relationship in case you need them again. A good Chiro is as much or more about being proactive and keeping joints functioning properly, particularly your spine. You should see one once a month minimum, just like maintenence intervals on your car. And Akira's living the reason this is a smart stratedgy for anyone but particularly those of us who weight train and/or play sports. "An ounce of prevention..."
A good Chiro or Osteopath may be able to resolve Akira's problem but it sounds a though surgery may be a possibility.

Akira: If you think crawling to the bathroom on all fours is dignified then refuse the financial aide and continue to suffer. If I were you I'd take the money and GET AN XRAY FIRST! After a radiologist and orthopedic surgeon have examined them, they'll tell you if you need more films (PET, MRI). That's the time to ask if they think you may need surgery.
Meanwhile, no clubbing, no dancing...but you might try to get some of those Fla. bimbos to give your back some massage.

Ubercoach

Posted by: Trouble

Go find a good chiropractor - seek out others in your area who have used them, find one who gets rave reviews. Coach is right; they are really worth it.

Get the x-ray, have it read by a ortho..and then take it with you to the chiro. He will need to see it anyway and possibly confir with the Orthopedist.

I suggests you suck up your pride, and politely ask your sugar momma to pay for the xray/film read by the Ortho and chiro visits, if you are lacking insurance coverage for these procedures. The cost will come to about the same as the MRI. You will be much farther ahead.

In your shoes, I would be grateful that you have someone who thinks enough of you to offer to pay for your treatment.

Posted by: ubercoach

"In your shoes, I would be grateful that you have someone who thinks enough of you to offer to pay for your treatment."
- Trouble

Yes, very very grateful. There's really not much demand for guys with screwed up backs.

Ubercoach

Posted by: ponyboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubercoach

A Chiro is like any other discipline, some are good, some not so good. My Chiro's been treating me for over twenty years. Just like any professional, when you find a good one, if you've any sense you maintain a relationship in case you need them again. A good Chiro is as much or more about being proactive and keeping joints functioning properly, particularly your spine. You should see one once a month minimum, just like maintenence intervals on your car. And Akira's living the reason this is a smart stratedgy for anyone but particularly those of us who weight train and/or play sports. "An ounce of prevention..."
A good Chiro or Osteopath may be able to resolve Akira's problem but it sounds a though surgery may be a possibility.

Ubercoach

Agreed. You will run into some chiros who tell you that they should see you a minimum of three times a week for six weeks to start. Run quickly in the other direction - like any industry there are good and bad practitioners and some chiros are shady when it comes to frequency of visits, especially the new ones. I have a good one I see about once a month OR when I have a problem a little more frequently plus I can do a lot of stuff on my own.

Personally I consider surgery an absolute last resort once all other avenues have been exhausted. It may take some time to find a technique that alleviates your problems. Living with chronic pain sucks ass.

Posted by: Trouble

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

You will run into some chiros who tell you that they should see you a minimum of three times a week for six weeks to start. Run quickly in the other direction - like any industry there are good and bad practitioners and some chiros are shady when it comes to frequency of visits, especially the new ones.

May I politely disagree with this statement? The reason for the initial visit frequency is that your chiro is working to realign what is termed a "stiff response system" of somewhat resistant (to corrective manipulation) bone and resiliant connected tissue.

The point of manual manipulation is to return bone position to it correct alignment. It is reset easily to its former (incorrect) position by attached elastically responsive muscle. To overcome this inclination to return to the incorrect position requires repeated repositioning and corrective exercises to eventually attain a semi-permenent state of realignment.

This latter state requires less frequent manipulative adjustments; corrections for larger misposition issues are rarely permanent. When you have a severe subluxation (lateral dislocation) as I had, I was seeing a chiro every other day.

For two unrelated back injuries, I saw two excellent practitioners, 14 yrs, and 3300 miles apart. Both had the same approach to manual readjustments, a short interval of frequent adjustments, followed by a longer period of gradually lengthening periods between minor corrective adjustments. The latter is always dictated by patient response, not to formulaic doctrine of required visits.

Posted by: AKIRA

Today is a bit better. And people have noticed me limping less. I am more sensitive in another toe as opposed to yesterday.

I go back to see him tomorrow and will ask him when I can get an MRI the soonest. Sugar momma really wants to help me.

Posted by: ubercoach

Sorry old son, but Trouble is absolutely correct in her discription of a typical chiropractic treatment schedule and the reasons why. It isn't the initial realtively intense schedule of treatments, it's continueing that treatment frequency long after it's no longer effective. You'll likely know when you're there and as a big boy or girl you can always say "I'd like to reduce the number of weekly visits."

"Personally I consider surgery an absolute last resort once all other avenues have been exhausted. It may take some time to find a technique that alleviates your problems. Living with chronic pain sucks ass."
-ponyboy

You've made three obvious points:
Yes, surgery is always the treatment of last resort.
Yes' it may take some time to find a technique that alleviates your problems or you may find you have to have an operation.
And as someone who lives with chronic pain this is an understatement:
"Living with chronic pain sucks ass." Perhaps the voice of experience or empathy, never the less, your understanding of others pain is appreciated, as are your efforts to help. Just try to show a little greater attention to scientific accuracy and intellectual originality in your responses. Your heart is in the right place.

Ubercoach

Posted by: ponyboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubercoach

Just try to show a little greater attention to scientific accuracy and intellectual originality in your responses. Your heart is in the right place.

Ubercoach

Thanks Dad. When I need your insight on what I'm posting I'll be sure to let you know in the future.

Posted by: ubercoach

ponyboy,

Follow my adxice and you won't need futher insight from me.
By the way, one more insight, it's more a professor to student relationship than father to son.

Ubercoach

Posted by: ponyboy

You being a professor would imply that I would learn something - and I have. How to be a condecending know it all. In the future please refrain from commenting on my posts and I will do the same. I'd rather not deal with people with your attitude in any capacity, much less on an internet message board.

Posted by: AKIRA

I went ahead and asked my chiro when an MRI can be given, where, by who, and how much. All answers given were good except the "when." Not saying it was more or less 'bad,' but he said it wasnt needed to be considered until next week.

Today is now 7 days, just a weeks since my injury/first visit. He wanted to continue treatment (down to mon wed fri, instead of everyday) and see what improves. He also said that an MRI wont exactly speed up the healing process, but help pin point where the problem is not healing. Speaking of him saying "not healing," he also said an MRI is also considered when symptoms become worse of plateaued. I have been walking better, but as far as feeling my toes or raising my leg, no. I am not sure if I have gotten better or have learned to live with this shit. Either way, come next week, if nothing improves, I go in.

He did do something new to me yesterday and I imagine he will again tomorrow. I laid down on my back and used my big toe's strength to try to keep him from pulling my toes toward him. My left big toe was stiff, the right, hardly had any strength. He said that was being affected by L5, the same problem he knew was causing the pain and sciatica.

Good news is, I just found out my benefits will kick in oct 1! And that getting an MRI will not be a long wait. "If I wanted to, I could prolly get you in there, by tonight, if I wanted you to," he said, so no waiting period.

Posted by: P-funk

even if your benifits kick in on OCT. 1, I don't believe you can use them for this condition because it is a pre-exisiting condition that you have been treated for BEFORE you got your medical benifits. had you never went to the Dr. for this you could walkin on OCt.1 and say it happened that day and get the treatment covered.

Posted by: Trouble

Very few medical insurance plans will cover an MRI advocated by a chiro. Many no longer will cover more than half a dozen chiro visits per year. They often won't cover more than 1 or 2 diagnostic x-rays. Hence, his comment about out-of-pocket cost. If you do decide to try the insurance coverage route, pay attention to Patricks comments below. Most major insurance plans (ex BC/BS) will not assure you in advance that coverage will include such procedures. It makes it tricky - your gf will probably end up covering the cost if the insurance company decides, "tough tomatoes, we won't pay for it."

You are seeing slow signs of recovery, Akira. Nerve injury repair of these types of injuries are SLOW. They are not overnight improvements.

Your chiro is prudently trying to hint to you to give his treatment a chance before you lay hard earned coin down on an imaging procedure that may or maynot show damage location.

You don't HAVE to have an MRI to see results from treatment. Its a confirmatory diagostic, secondary to examination and history.

http://www.spine-health.com/topics/c...nsights02.html

"Diagnostic tests. After the physician has a good idea of the source of the patient’s pain, a diagnostic test, such as a CT scan or an MRI scan, is often ordered to confirm the presence of an anatomical lesion in the spine. The tests can give a detailed picture of the location of the herniated disc and impinged nerve roots.

It is important to emphasize that MRI scans and other diagnostic tests are not used to diagnose the patient’s pain; rather, they are only used to confirm the presence of an anatomical problem that was identified or suspected through the medical history and physical exam. For this reason, while the radiographic findings on an MRI scan or other tests are important, they are not as significant in diagnosing the cause of the patient’s pain (the clinical diagnosis) as are the findings from the medical history and physical exam. Often, an MRI scan or other type of test will be used mainly for the purpose of surgical planning—for example, so the surgeon can see exactly where the herniated disc is and how it is impinging on the nerve root."

There are many useful web search hits like this. Run the following terms on a google search:

L5 and sciatic nerve injury and MRI diagnostic

Posted by: HighVelocity

Akira, I too have recently had a gym related injury very similar to yours. I just happened to come across this thread on this board so I registered to make this post.

I have always had lower back pain after working the hammies and esp. after doing deadlifts. About 2 months ago, despite the fact I had a sore back, I was goofing off and went to lift my gf in a military type press (she's not light), which made my back even more sore. The following night I suffered a severe stabbing pain in my left glute which lasted about a week. It was terrible. It literally felt like a bullet was lodged in my ass. I went to a chiropractor who did some X-rays, which he said "showed" that my L5 vertebra was tilted.

In the next few days I started to loose feeling on the outside of my foot and calf, and experiencing partial muscle paralysis (especially in my calf). My chiropractor had an MRI setup for me (cost me $500). It confirmed a huge disc herniation between L5-S1. The neuro surgeon who I went to said that the MRI suggest I need surgery. However, he was reluctant to cut just yet because the pain had subsided.

Now, two months later, I still have not regained any strength in that calf and I walk with a limp. The doctors seem baffled. They gave me two epidural cortico-steroid injections, but nothing has changed. They want to give me one more, but I said no.

The calf has atrophied a few mm. The only time I experience pain is when attempting to bend over to stretch the hammies and glutes. The pain is in that same area in my upper glute. It may be my piriformis muscle smashing my sciatic nerve. My physical therapist pushes on that area and there is pretty intense pain, but she doesn't seem to care. I told her that she's probably indirectly affecting my sciatic nerve, but she claims it isn't possible. I gave my anatomy books to my gf, so I can't use them to see the route of the sciatic nerve.

I'm thinking some kind a myofascial release from a massage therapist may help, but hell I don't know. NONE of the medical professionals I've gone to seem to know what the hell is going on or what to do about it. It's unbelievable. I've gotten more patient information from you guys than from the 4 professionals I've seen. This injury is so common, I would think that doctors would immediatly recognize it and know what to do about it. I think medical schools do not teach simple wholistic management, just surgery.

Akira, I hope your injury doesn't escalate to where mine is. The pain will eventually subside on it's own hopefully. Best of luck to ya.

Steve

Posted by: AKIRA

My money provider is not my gf, but she is an important person. I cant elaborate as to how or why I know that my insurance will cover pre-existing injuries and MRIs. Actually, lets just say I can get away with having a pre-existing injury on this one. But I have already looked into what plans offer what and MRIs are covered. Extensive visits, I will have to look into again..

Trouble-Yes the dr said that nerves are the slowest to recover. Muscles, bones, tendons, disks, nerves, in that order I think.. I am not sure if you are saying to run with the treatment for now or to put some cash down on an MRI now. My mom said she can have a dr she knows look at me, I believe this doc is a chiro thats an MD. Mine is not. Should I seek a second opinion?

HighVelocity-your responce left me with cold sweats. Though it seemed your problem came on slowly and the pain slowly went away, whereas mine was "tolerable" until it literally snapped (like a hammer to your funny bone, but in your ass), now the pain is slowly going away. However, you have an MRI and I dont. I really, really hope I dont get that bad, but even though my limp is better and I can sit in a chair for longer periods of time, raising my foot, my big toe strength, and numbess has not gotten better.

Tomorrow is another big toe strength day and I must say, it doesnt seem better today.. Next week, will be when, if there is nothing improved (anything that doesnt help with my depression), I am telling him I want an MRI, even if its too soon, I want that piece of mind.

I mean would this shit heal THIS slowly?

Posted by: AKIRA

"In the next few days I started to loose feeling on the outside of my foot and calf, and experiencing partial muscle paralysis (especially in my calf). My chiropractor had an MRI setup for me (cost me $500). It confirmed a huge disc herniation between L5-S1. The neuro surgeon who I went to said that the MRI suggest I need surgery. However, he was reluctant to cut just yet because the pain had subsided."

Why havent you been cut yet? How long has it been since youve been diagnosed? It sounds like youre miserable and god knows, I am now.

I have to keep telling myself its been just over a week now since this nerve beat the hell out of me. Still though, I am growing impatient.

Posted by: maniclion

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Tomorrow is another big toe strength day and I must say, it doesnt seem better today.. Next week, will be when, if there is nothing improved (anything that doesnt help with my depression), I am telling him I want an MRI, even if its too soon, I want that piece of mind.

I mean would this shit heal THIS slowly?

My entire right foot is weak and if I didn't have anything I would probably limp like Quasimodo, well not really but it hurts.... funny thing is I can bend forward, but if I lean backwards there is a pinching sensation inside my back and hip that leaves me unbearably sore for a day or 2. I think tossing and turning in bed at night doesn't help it, I think I should get straps sewn into my matress to keep me in one position or something??????

Posted by: Trouble

Comments:

Pain severity and rate of recovery depend on post event treatment and injury aggravation, degree of herniation (4 degrees possible, more than one level mentioned in recent posts), your pain feedback system (pain threshold and response), rate of recovery (nerve and soft tissue recover at different rates which are also health status related), treatment, and active recovery options used.

Not weeks, months.

I blew out, severely, two disks, L4 and L5. I did not have surgery, it wasn't a viable option. Two years to recover to the point of minor daily pain. Four months lying flat on the floor for a large chunk of each day, on a special pad with supports. Minor pain medication, others not allowed due to unusual drug metabolism patterns.

At month two, I was able to alternate patterns of laying and walking. Rising to my feet and laying down were excruciating activities. By month 3, I was walking up to 10 miles daily, in an attempt to correct positioning and reestablish ligament strength (coupled with mild positional stretching under the guidance of a PT (friend, for whom I later paid in kind with professional help). I didn't sleep in a real bed for almost a year; I didn't sit in chairs for more than 8 months. Life spent at floor level changes your perspective.

Patience. Give treatment a chance.

Posted by: HighVelocity

Akira, those are good questions which I forgot to elaborate on in my original post. I had the initial trauma about 2 months ago, and the MRI about 1 month ago. The reason I haven't been cut on yet is because this is a "fresh" herniation, and it's huge. The surgery is involved and somewhat complicated, meaning that I would have more problems after the surgery than if I were to see if it heals on its own. Another little known fact . . . disc herniations shrink! Since mine is so huge, and I have no pain now, I think there's a good chance the after a few months, I shouldn't have anymore nerve compression. I'm not totally sure if they shrink, or just recede back into their proper position, or a combo.

I am in no pain whatsoever. Unless I bend past my knees. My strength isn't changing for better or for worse. That muscle is still paralyzed and is starting to atrophy. What I'm starting to worry about is that I may have damaged my sciatic nerve to the point of partial nerve degeneration from my ass down to my foot. Nerve REGENERATION happens at a rate of 1-2mm/day. So if my leg is around 700mm long, then I'll probably be limping for over a year. Surgery won't help anything at this point.

I am grateful that peripheral nerves do regenerate. Central (spinal) nerves don't.

Maniclion, pain is a good thing. If you're in chronic pain, then that probably means that nerve is still being "pinched" or compressed. The time you should start to worry is when the pain stops and two weeks go by without getting any sensation or motor function back to your muscles. Then you know your nerve was compromised and will probably have to regenerate.

Ubercoach et. all: anyone know if this institutes methods are as effective as traditional sgy? Thanks.
www.laserspineinstitute.com

Posted by: Trouble

Stability and plasticity of primary afferent projections following nerve rNerve root impingement—a common back problem

From top to bottom down the entire length of the spine, at each spinal level nerves exit through holes in the bone of the spine (foramen) on the right side and left side of the spinal column. These nerves are called nerve roots, or radicular nerves. They branch out at each level of the spine and innervate different parts of our body. For example, nerves that exit the cervical spine travel down through the arms, hands and fingers. This is why neck problems that affect a cervical nerve root can cause pain and other symptoms through the arms and hands, and low back problems that affect a lumbar nerve root can radiate through the leg and into the foot (sciatica).

As mentioned earlier, there is no spinal cord in the lumbar spine. Because of this, and because the spinal canal is usually fairly spacious in the low back, problems in the lumbosacral region (the lumbar spine and sacral region of the spine) usually cause nerve root problems, not spinal cord injury. Even serious conditions such as a large disc herniation or fracture in the low back are less likely to cause permanent loss of motor function in the legs (paraplegia, or paralysis).

The nerve roots are named for the level of the spine at which they exit. However, nerve roots are not labeled consistently throughout the length of the spine.

* In the cervical spine, the nerve root is named according to the LOWER spinal segment that the nerve root runs between. For example, the nerve at the C5-C6 level is called the C6 nerve root.

It is named this way because as it exits the spine the nerve root passes OVER the C6 pedicle (a piece of bone that is part of the spinal segment).

* In the lumbar spine, the nerve roots are named according to the UPPER segment that the nerve runs between. For example, the nerve root at the L4-L5 level is called the L4 nerve root.

The nerve root is named this way because as it exits the spine it passes UNDER the L4 pedicle (a piece of bone that is part of the spinal segment).

The area that the naming change occurs is at the C7-T1 level (Thoracic 1), meaning that there are 8 cervical nerve roots and only 7 cervical vertebrae. Here, the C8 nerve exits UNDER the C7 vertebra and OVER the T1 vertebra. From this point down through the upper back, lower back and sacral region, the nerve is named for the upper segment of the spine that the nerve root runs between (and the pedicle it passes UNDER as it exits the spine).

This is part of the picture. However, the doctor may still say that you have a problem with the L5 nerve root at the L4-L5 level. Since we just explained that the L4 nerve root exits at the L4-L5 level, this sounds like a contradiction. However, both statements are correct, and can be explained by the fact that there are two nerve roots at each level.

Two nerve roots at each level
It should be mentioned that two nerves cross each disc level and only one exits the spine (through the foramen) at that level.

* Exiting nerve root. The nerve root that exits the spine at a particular level is referred to as the “exiting” nerve root.

Example: The L4 nerve root exits the spine at the L4-L5 level.

* Traversing nerve root. Another nerve root goes across the disc and exits the spine at the next level below. It is called the “traversing” nerve root.

Example: The L5 nerve root is the traversing nerve root at the L4-L5 level, and is the exiting nerve root at the L5-S1 level.

A lot of confusion occurs because when a nerve root is compressed by disc herniation or other cause, it is common to refer both to the intervertebral level (where the disc is) and to the nerve root that is affected. Depending on where the disc herniation or protrusion occurs, it may impinge upon either the exiting nerve root or the traversing nerve root. For example:

When the traversing nerve root is affected
In the lumbar spine, there is a weak spot in the disc space that lies right in front of the traversing nerve root, so lumbar discs tend to herniate or leak out and impinge on the traversing nerve root. For example, a typical posterolateral (behind the disc and to the side) lumbar disc herniation at the L4-L5 level often affects the nerve that traverses the L4-L5 level and exits at the L5 level, called the L5 nerve root.

When the exiting nerve root is affected
The opposite is true in the neck. In the cervical spine, the disc tends to herniate to the side (laterally), rather than toward the back and the side (posterolaterally). If the disc material herniates to the side, it would likely compress the exiting nerve root. For example, the C6 nerve root would be affected at the C5-C6 level (because in the neck the exiting nerve root is named for the level below it).

Radiculopathy and sciatica
Another word for the nerve root is “radicular nerve”, and when a herniated disc or prolapsed disc presses on the radicular nerve, this is often referred to as a radiculopathy. Thus, a physician might say that there is herniated disc at the L4-L5 level, creating an L5 radiculopathy or an L4 radiculopathy, depending on where the disc herniation occurs (to the side or to the back of the disc) and which nerve root is affected. The lay term for a radiculopathy in the low back is sciatica.

This is a very good site to read up on sciatica and its various organic causes.

http://www.spine-health.com/topics/c...tica/sc02.html

Posted by: AKIRA

My chiro did speak of "possible nerve damage," but since it takes so long to heal...ugh, I dont know. I am just fucking spent. My friends have been telling me today to "not worry" cuz it could "last a month, so why worry about a week?"

Trust me, I do not want to be cut open over a fucking STRETCH gone arai nor do I really want to shell out extra money on an MRI just to pinpoint the problem, but I am miserable. Patience and AKIRA are not close friends. Every time I think about not being able to workout for months, my face gets sweaty and I want to flip out...yet I cant.

I mean, I bought a stack from IM Sunday before Labor day and then on Tuesday, I fuck myself up. Its like preparing for your 1st powerlifting meet and getting injured before the first day; from all to nothing.

My mother wants me to go to this MD to not only get a second opinion, but to maybe get on a drug called Predisone (might not be the correct spelling) and I just cant see a drug helping me here.

I am feeling real blue today (and RED). Especially after this girl I slept with a lil while ago told me shes got back problems, her disks are messed up along with her neck, but no she didnt have that happen from a stretch, it happened from a fucking car accident. I cant even laugh, cough, or sneeze without being reminded of my screw up.

Love,
Raged Sadness

Posted by: AKIRA

Holy shit Trouble, that site you listed is right on with where my numbess, tingling, and weakness is; L5. That whole region is affected...err, right above the ankle and down. The others are fine.

Trouble, are you a doctor?

Posted by: Trouble

Yes, but not an MD. My injury was in the same location. In my case, I tried to prevent a 370 lb instrument from rocketing off of a cart when we "dropped it" (controlled elevation chance on a collapsible cart). The other person had similar injuries. This was a very expensive special research instrument loaned to my ex and I to test in our lab years ago. I didn't even realize I had injured it (first 12 hours), or that life had changed radically for me that day. The herniation developed rapidly after the first half day got progressively worse until I was agony. That state lasted quite a while. It eventually effected both legs.

I continued to work as though nothing was wrong for almost a month. Except that I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat and was in excruciating pain. I finally saw a chiro, who was unable to adjust my back for several more weeks because it was so badly spasmed, it was rigid. This guy was a weight lifter, pretty big at over six foot, and his brother, in practice with him and few years older, was even bigger. Neither of them had ever seen a back so immobile. He used a series of nerve release actions (very new idea at that time) to slowly release the interlocked muscles. From that point on, recovery was very, very slow.

I only mention this to for comparative purpose. Things could be worse. I'm sorry you have this pain, I know its difficult to endure with when you haven't had this kind of injury before. I think you will find that with careful treatment, that this damage will slowly reverse itself to the point of minor stiffness in your lower back, and with luck, eventually it will resolve itself completely without the need for surgical intervention.

Posted by: AKIRA

How long did it take you to recover?

I also wanted to know if anyone has ever 'bounced' back from this, meaning, they were able to deadlift again and perhaps were stronger (?)

Ive got an MRI scheduled for the 29th.

Posted by: Trouble

About 2.5 years, to be relatively free of pain. Have fascia scar tissue in the area that makes it feel tight if I don't keep up core strength and spinal flexibility exercises. Feels like shit if my sleep schedule goes to hell in a handbasket. Reflexive stupidity cause the initial damage; stubborn ignorance compounded it (by waiting so long for chiropractic care).

I was deadlifting 325+ for 10 last year without damage to that area. Many experienced lifters have recovered from these injuries and gone on to impressive lifting performance.

You might not be lifting heavy for 6-8 months, but as you recover, you'll be able to add back in various exercises that will help you keep most of the strength gains you had before your injury.

Posted by: JimSnow

Sciatica.

LOL

3 years ago while basking in my sedamentary computer geek lifestyle - I turned in my computer chair to ask someone a question. BAM... a bolt of lightning went through body. My back was out.

The next day, while lying on the sofa and pissing in a bottle because I couldn't move, I was delivered to the hospital in an ambulance after enduring too much agony. I was practically a paraplegic. After an x-ray that revealed nothing and 4 morphine shots over 3 hours... I lept up and walked. Hell, I ran around the parking lot 5 times - I was so happy!

I felt great the next day.

The day after I began to have severe pain in my right leg if I walked more than 10 steps. It would bring tears to my eyes for two weeks. I remember walking with a client through his worksite. I was screaming 'bloody murder' in my mind - but outwardly personable.

The Doc had tested for sciatica when my back originally went out. There were no signs! He was perplexed. At one point, he wisped in the room and grabbed my balls... checking for hernia I guess.

About a month ago I turned to hand someone a light package... another "jolt"! Not severe, the pain lasted in my lower back for about a week. I caught it in time (dropped it and fell to the floor before the action was completed), I suppose. No leg pain this time.

I'm getting in pretty good shape. I don't think that's relative to the condition at hand.

Posted by: AKIRA

Well, its about 8 weeks now since my injury and heres how life is..

Ive been back to the gym doing only upper body. No movements seem to cause any sort of pain. Thus far..

Numbness has subsided, but is still there. I get a shit load of itches around the numb areas, which is a good sign. Numbness can be defined to me as just not having as much sensation on the right leg than on the left.

Strength? Well, my big toe still hardly has any, so I dont know about that.

I still cant lie in a supine position and bring my leg straight up. Id say I can get it to maybe 30 degrees.

Sitting down is fine now. However, if I sit for so many hours a day, not consecutively, I feel pain in my back. No shooting pain.

My MRI is on Oct 16th. It was delayed until I got insurance. I take 600mg 3 times a day, but today I am going to shoot for 200mg, cuz my stomach is starting to hurt from this Ibprofren.

I still see the doc 3 times a week, but yesterday was the first day we did "active recovery." Meaning, instead of having electronic muscle inhibitors on my back with ice or heat, I see a rehab therapist now. We did mostly stretches for now. I think she was seeing what my limits are...and I think she also wanted to see how hard my dick got.

This is becoming tedious, but things are better, just shit is going real slowly.

Posted by: BigDyl

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimSnow

At one point, he wisped in the room and grabbed my balls...

.......................

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Well, its about 8 weeks now since my injury and heres how life is..

Ive been back to the gym doing only upper body. No movements seem to cause any sort of pain. Thus far..

This is becoming tedious, but things are better, just shit is going real slowly.

how do you go to therapy without having an MRI, meaning how do you even know what the problem is?

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

how do you go to therapy without having an MRI, meaning how do you even know what the problem is?

seriously....

Posted by: DyingTrying

I had sciatica twice first in my left leg for about a year, then it went away for 6, 7 months then i got it in my right leg, i tried pretty much anything u can think of from different doctors to different pills, but the truth is this stuff doesnt go away man, chiro was the best thing so far its the same thing like you makes one of your legs shorter your bones in the back that are supposed to be aligned are not, i was goin to chiro for about a month or so 3 times a week it killed me $$$ it went away but it is really fragile i went out to play some ball and i'm limping again, thing that helps me relieve the pain is buy a ice pack and put it on your lower back 3 4 times a day for 15 -20 minutes its good stuff, the bad thing about sciatica is there is no one in particular to go to, like if your tooth was hurting you go to dentist and its done this crap is annoying as hell...

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

how do you go to therapy without having an MRI, meaning how do you even know what the problem is?

I got the MRI on the 16th. Everything that showed up in the MRI was already diagnosed. I suppose this chiro knows what hes doing.

L5 was protruding centerally (towards that spaghetti/horse's tail of nerves). Nothing was dislodged or seperated from the disk. Apparently, I dont need surgery!

No nerve damage.

I was hoping to get better results, but these were pretty much as expected.

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

I got the MRI on the 16th. Everything that showed up in the MRI was already diagnosed. I suppose this chiro knows what hes doing.

L5 was protruding centerally (towards that spaghetti/horse's tail of nerves). Nothing was dislodged or seperated from the disk. Apparently, I dont need surgery!

No nerve damage.

I was hoping to get better results, but these were pretty much as expected.

it does not matter if a chiro "knows what he is doing", not even a orthopedic spine surgeon can diagnose a herniated disc without seeing an MRI.

Posted by: AKIRA

What I meant was, even before the MRI was given, he made a diagnosis (guess, assumption, speculation...insert noun here) and it turned out to be exactly what he had thought. In other words, he was bullshitting me.

I could careless either way, its bad news any way I look at it.

Posted by: Trouble

No sir, you are incorrect in surmising that your chiropractor was 'bullshitting' you. You may recall I posted several hyperlinks to professional orthopedic/spinal medicine websites that *explicitly* state that an MRI is typically used to confirm a diagnosis when surgical intervention maybe necessary (where indicated by symptoms).

You were told here that an MRI is NOT a necessary diagnostic tool, that radiographic (x-rays) evidence and in-office physical evaluation and patient history are a standard diagnosis of back injury. You *insisted* on having an MRI done, despite the fact that your chiropractor warned you that it wasn't an absolute requirement.

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trouble

No sir, you are incorrect in surmising that your chiropractor was 'bullshitting' you. You may recall I posted several hyperlinks to professional orthopedic/spinal medicine websites that *explicitly* state that an MRI is typically used to confirm a diagnosis when surgical intervention maybe necessary (where indicated by symptoms).

You were told here that an MRI is NOT a necessary diagnostic tool, that radiographic (x-rays) evidence and in-office physical evaluation and patient history are a standard diagnosis of back injury. You *insisted* on having an MRI done, despite the fact that your chiropractor warned you that it wasn't an absolute requirement.

There's more to this description of what I *said.* I could have wrote a book explaining exactly what he meant by what he said, but I just dont have the energy to type it.

Really, what does it matter? I have proof that I am fucked up. The chiro said what was fucked up before the MRI. Where is the mystery? Maybe I wasnt comfortable enough with funds to shell out x amount of money to get an MRI at the time. Maybe I didnt want to use someone else to pay for it? Who gives a shit? I suppose, I couldve said it, but I didnt.

Ive got a long path of rehab, therapy, and pain, why the constant need to ask questions or demand answers that wont help me or anyone else with sciatica?

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trouble

You were told here that an MRI is NOT a necessary diagnostic tool, that radiographic (x-rays) evidence and in-office physical evaluation and patient history are a standard diagnosis of back injury. You *insisted* on having an MRI done, despite the fact that your chiropractor warned you that it wasn't an absolute requirement.

so in his case you do not think an MRI was necessary?

Posted by: Trouble

What I think is irrelevant; I quoted professional opinion on its need. Note the simple circumstances of the injury cause. This was not a car accident or high impact sports injury. Its a routine L4/L5 lower back injury, exactly as described in on the websites cited much earlier in this thread.

Posted by: Prince

I still fail to see how any back injury can be diagnosed and treated without an MRI, that seem the same as treating a broken bone without an x-ray.

Posted by: Trouble

How do you think common lower back injuries were diagnosed before the advent of MRI use - a quite recent diagnostic tool? I understand your point. Mine is many doctors use MRI to verify a diagnosis when confounding symptoms or complications present in the case.

I will fetch the information/link and repost it.

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trouble

Really? How do you think common lower back injuries were diagnosed before the advent of MRI use (a quite recent diagnostic tool)? Ouiji board? Crystal ball? Dice?

couldn't you say that about anything in medicine?

I guess I would say often they were misdiagnosed, just as many things were, and many people used to die from things that are easily treated today with the advent of new technologies.

Posted by: Trouble

Integrated findings form the clinical diagnosis
A physician’s clinical diagnosis focuses on determining the source of a patient’s pain. For this reason, the clinical diagnosis of pain from a herniated disc is based on more than just the findings from a diagnostic test, such as an MRI scan or CT scan. Instead, the spine care professional arrives at a clinical diagnosis of the cause of the patient’s pain through a combination of findings from a thorough medical history, conducting a complete physical exam, and, if appropriate, conducting one or more diagnostic tests.

*

Medical history. The physician will take the patient’s medical history, such as a description of when the low back pain, sciatica or other symptoms occur, a description of how the pain feels, what activities, positions or treatments make the pain feel better and more.
*

Physical exam. The physicians will conduct a thorough physical exam of the patient, such as testing nerve function and muscle strength in certain parts of the leg or arm, testing for pain in certain positions and more. Usually, this series of physical tests will give the spine professional a good idea of the type of back problem the patient has.
*

Diagnostic tests. After the physician has a good idea of the source of the patient’s pain, a diagnostic test, such as a CT scan or an MRI scan, is often ordered to confirm the presence of an anatomical lesion in the spine. The tests can give a detailed picture of the location of the herniated disc and impinged nerve roots.

It is important to emphasize that MRI scans and other diagnostic tests are not used to diagnose the patient’s pain; rather, they are only used to confirm the presence of an anatomical problem that was identified or suspected through the medical history and physical exam. For this reason, while the radiographic findings on an MRI scan or other tests are important, they are not as significant in diagnosing the cause of the patient’s pain (the clinical diagnosis) as are the findings from the medical history and physical exam.

Often, an MRI scan or other type of test will be used mainly for the purpose of surgical planning—for example, so the surgeon can see exactly where the herniated disc is and how it is impinging on the nerve root.

http://www.spine-health.com/topics/c...nsights02.html

Posted by: ponyboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

I still fail to see how any back injury can be diagnosed and treated without an MRI, that seem the same as treating a broken bone without an x-ray.

You can tell a bone is broken without an x-ray though. Especially an open one that breaks through the skin. Owich.

Posted by: ubercoach

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

In your way you are as stubborn as Akira. If you were to go back and carefully analyze every single piece of infromation posted by Trouble you will not find a single error in judgement or piece of incorrect info. Akira could have saved himself the cost of the MRI had he listened to Trouble and done a little homework. Listen and learn. Remember, Robert, while you are a superior 'human' being, Trouble is not from Earth...

Ubercoach

Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubercoach

A little homework? I was obsessed with this shit. I still am! I went to every site you listed, read every post, (even the useless ones), tried every trick I found.

An MRI may not have been 'needed,' but I was obsessed and needed that piece of mind. Plus, why not check for nerve damage?

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubercoach

I believe in utilizing technology, especially when your health is involved! I was misdiagnosed by my chiro, he said there was no way I had a herniated disc due to my symptoms (not very severe). But I decided I wanted to find out exactly what was going on in my lower back so I went in for an MRI. It turned out I had a centralized herniation in the L5/S1 disc and a buldging L5/L4 disc.

I once sprained my ankle so bad that I swore it was broken. I went to the ER because it hurt so bad I could not even walk. They did an x-ray and there was no break.

While it is true that a good doc can often diagnose problems without tests a smart one runs the blood tests, takes the x-ray, orders the MRI, etc. for confirmation of his diagnosis.

By the way I was a medic in the US Army and worked in a military hospital for almost 2 years. I went through 4 months of medical training, 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. While I am no MD (or even close) I like to think I have a litle bit of knowledge on the subject of medicine.

Posted by: AKIRA

Ok.

My doctor didnt want me to get an MRI right away. In other words, he wanted to see if things progressed, plateaued, or regressed. In the event that I progressed, an MRI wouldnt see really needed. I was making progress, but I was impatient.

He was treating me the whole time as a patient with a "centralized L5 disk herniation." When I asked him weeks ago about an MRI, he said that it wouldnt really speed up the recovery, just point out exactly what was wrong.

At the time of hearing this, I thought "how can he be sure", but after receiving and seeing the results with my two eyes, I had to admit he was right.

Posted by: redchillipepper

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

It has been made apparent that my back problem isnt muscular but a "sciatic nerve" problem.

A 'chiro' took my legs and pulled them to see if my legs were aligned and he said one was shorter than the other. He says this causes this nerve to be pinched resulting in this 'pinched' pain.

Truth is, I havent done any lower body work in over 2 months. I have stretched through some lower back pain that is now gone completely, BUT this sciatic nerve shit is worse than ever!

My question is, how can I see my way through it? Keep stretching? I do self-myofacial release on my lower back, hams, glutes, and IT band. I stretch my hams, glutes, lower back, and hip flexors (actively and static-ly).

This doesnt seem to be helping. I can keep getting adjusted by the chiro, but it adds up in $$.

Anyone conquered this problem before?

Yes, I have and in quite a bad way. Mine started after suffering from a spinal injury due to sky diving. I started out taking medicines and anti-inflammatories but it ended up costing too much. I no do regular acupuncture and specific exercises as well stretching exercises. Trick is to be consistent. I have inserted a link you might want to have a look at. All the best! I know what you are going through.

Henri

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Sciatic Nerve

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