Protein Intake & Complimentarity [Forum Archive]

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Protein Intake & Complimentarity

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Posted by: CowPimp

I know this has been discussed many times, but I'm bringing it back...

What do you feel is an appropriate intake of protein for gaining lean mass in resistance-trained individuals? In a textbook for the nutrition course that I am currently taking there is a section that lists the estimated protein needs for various populations, which is supported by many studies. The say 1.6-1.7g of protein per kilogram of bodyweight is sufficient for gaining lean mass in a strength-trained individual. This is something like .75g per pound. It does, however, jive fairly close with what I have seen some people on this board espouse: 1g per pound of LBM.

Also, what do you think about protein complimentarity? Is using non-animal sources of protein at one or two meals, but combining proteins properly, a good way to get high quality protein without the cholesterol and saturated fat.

Posted by: Seanp156

I always thought that 1-2g's was recommended/necessary for muscle building, but as well, I read in one of my textbooks that many people in general get much more protein than the need and that even for bodybuilders, they don't need a whole lot. I probably consume more than I need, but it seems like it would be hard to make up for the calories from dropping protein and adding carbs in their place.

Posted by: Witchblade

I take 1g per lb of bodyweight.

Anyway, the magic food to get protein without fat is: curds!

http://www.davidlebovitz.com/archive...0306/curds.jpg
You have all sorts of crappy curds in the states, with cheese and stuff, but those are bad. You should get the thick, white stuff that looks like thick yoghurt.

If you get the right stuff, the macro's per 100g are:
Kcal 40
Protein 10
Carbs 0-5 (some have sugar added)
Fat ~0 (if you get the lean stuff)

So that's basically pure protein intake of 10g for just 40kcal. Besides, it's pretty cheap and it doesn't taste bad.

Posted by: P-funk

I think on the lower end 1-1.2g per LB of BW and on the higher end 1.5g per LB of BW. I don't think you need to go more than that (plus is takes calories away from all the carbs you can be eating..mmmm...carbs).

I never thought about the combined protein sources for one or two meals. I couldn't see it being bad. I wouldn't eat like that all day (ie, like a vegetarian), but it shouldn't be to bad.

Posted by: pengers84

Yeah I have come across the same in my studies (1.5-1.6g per kg), also my text recommends only 15% of total cals should come from protein, quiet different to what a lot of people in the gym and on boards consume. Also it suggested that whey protein was pointless and that the AIS (Australian Institute of Sport) did not endorse it for use in any sport. Considering how much money our government spends on the AIS it made me rethink forking out $130 for yet another tub of whey.

Posted by: Spud

Combined protein sources, like rice and beans, are good. They provide all 20 amino acids together. However, I think the unappeal of them for bodybuilders is:

1) Protein % is much lower than meat
2) The gas!
3) Alot of carbs.

Posted by: TJ Cline

About 1gm per Lb is all I ever have done, I just can not eat 400g of protein a day and would never want to.

Posted by: calalily1972

I think 1.5G per pound of LBM is all that anyone needs. As far as the combining, yes, I feel that you can get adequate protein that is just as beneficial as chicken or fish providing you combine to make a complete protein. here are a few complete Protein Combos:

PB on Whole Grain bread
Rice Cakes and PB
Hummus alone is a complete protein
Trail Mixes with peanuts and sunflower seeds
Beans and Rice
Yogurt and Granola
Oats and Milk

The list goes on. When you take the AA profile of one of those combos and compare them to the AA profile of a piece of chicken you will notice that you get all the essential AA's.

Posted by: P-funk

How is hummus a complete protein? I thought it was just ground up chick peas (incomplete).....what else is it mixed with?

Posted by: calalily1972

Its a combo of legumes and seeds which makes a complete protein.

Hummus = Chickpeas and Sesame Seeds

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodi

Its a combo of legumes and seeds which makes a complete protein.

Hummus = Chickpeas and Sesame Seeds

oh, I didn't know seeds were in there. I though it was chick peas, olive oil and some spices.

Posted by: calalily1972

Yup Yup!

Any combo of legumes or nuts combined with seeds makes a complete protein albeit not the same amount of protein as an 8oz steak but a complete protein nonetheless.

Posted by: NeilPearson

Everything I've read indicates body builders tend to think they need more protein than they really do. 0.8 - 1.2 grams per pound should be lots for building muscle... and this includes all the complete proteins you get - not just meat.

Posted by: calalily1972

I agree. I tend to calculate by LBM. So I typically suggest 1.5G per lb of LBM.

Posted by: PWGriffin

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/...oprejudice.htm

Here's a good article by john berardi on the subject.

Posted by: HSMichael

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I know this has been discussed many times, but I'm bringing it back...

What do you feel is an appropriate intake of protein for gaining lean mass in resistance-trained individuals? In a textbook for the nutrition course that I am currently taking there is a section that lists the estimated protein needs for various populations, which is supported by many studies. The say 1.6-1.7g of protein per kilogram of bodyweight is sufficient for gaining lean mass in a strength-trained individual. This is something like .75g per pound. It does, however, jive fairly close with what I have seen some people on this board espouse: 1g per pound of LBM.

Also, what do you think about protein complimentarity? Is using non-animal sources of protein at one or two meals, but combining proteins properly, a good way to get high quality protein without the cholesterol and saturated fat.

I think it really depends on how advanced the individual is...
How long they have been training. How big they are and what bf%, age etc.

I think the average individual (couple years of training, not too big, 15ish Bf) can make steady gains off .75g per pound no sweat.

However, anyone who has been training conistently for 5-6+ years, I would think they would need more to complement their mass gained over those years.

Also, most teens can make gains, no matter if they are taking in 100 grams a day or 300 grams. So age can make a big difference.

Posted by: CowPimp

Thanks for all the great responses everyone! I really appreciate your input.

As a side note, I saw a figure listed in my nutrition textbook that many experts seem to agree on in terms of macronutrient distribution for the athlete/highly active individual: 50% carbohydrate, 30% fat, and 20% protein. For me, 20% protein comes out to about 210g of protein a day, which sounds right.

I think I'm going to rework my diet plan this week and shift some of my intake from protein to carbohydrate. After the responses here, and what I have been learning, it seems like that excess protein is: expensive, unnecessary, detracting from the micronutrients provided for by good carbohydrate selection, and maybe not as anabolic as the insulinogenic effect of more carbohydrates.

I'm curious to see if my performance goes up when dealing with resistance training leaning more toward the endurance end of the specturm when it comes to loading parameters. This has always been a weak point for me.

Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Thanks for all the great responses everyone! I really appreciate your input.

As a side note, I saw a figure listed in my nutrition textbook that many experts seem to agree on in terms of macronutrient distribution for the athlete/highly active individual: 50% carbohydrate, 30% fat, and 20% protein. For me, 20% protein comes out to about 210g of protein a day, which sounds right.

I think I'm going to rework my diet plan this week and shift some of my intake from protein to carbohydrate. After the responses here, and what I have been learning, it seems like that excess protein is: expensive, unnecessary, detracting from the micronutrients provided for by good carbohydrate selection, and maybe not as anabolic as the insulinogenic effect of more carbohydrates.

I'm curious to see if my performance goes up when dealing with resistance training leaning more toward the endurance end of the specturm when it comes to loading parameters. This has always been a weak point for me.

I noticed a SERIOUS lack of endurance when my carbs were lowered just moderately.

Did you read the article I posted??

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

I noticed a SERIOUS lack of endurance when my carbs were lowered just moderately.

Did you read the article I posted??

REALLY!! No way! I never would have thought that would happen! Why do you think that is?

Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

I noticed a SERIOUS lack of endurance when my carbs were lowered just moderately.

Did you read the article I posted??

I've read it before. I didn't re-read it though. I believe someone went through and kind of tore it apart on T-Nation once, and then Berardi responded. It was like some kind of protein debate between Berardi and some other nutritional big dog.

I know Berardi likes protein a lot, but at a certain point it just seems fruitless. I'm going to post up my new planned diet later tonight and see how it works out for myself. I have been going pretty damned high in protein for so long, I might as well give something else a try.

Hopefully this will be more beneficial to my overall health as it will be very high in fiber, lower in cholesterol, and packed with more vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals.

Posted by: PWGriffin

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

REALLY!! No way! I never would have thought that would happen! Why do you think that is?

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I believe it was Lyle McDonald. The problem with t-fag is that to post in a discussion, mod. has to read your post and then clear it so you can't really "ice" any of the authors, because of course they are gods and know everything.

Posted by: leg_press

I've been on websites like animalpak.com/.co.uk and the guys there say you should shoot for around 2g per lb of bw

Posted by: P-funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg_press

I've been on websites like animalpak.com/.co.uk and the guys there say you should shoot for around 2g per lb of bw

I wouldn't take any of the advice from animal pak (training or nutrition) and I wouldn't even buy their supplements.

Get your information from reputable sources. Not someone who has a vested interest in making money off of you purchasing their products.

Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

I kind of have a feeling that's where a lot of these absurdly high protein recommendations stem from. More protein in the diet means more purchases of protein supplements.

Posted by: leg_press

Thats true animal pak is something like £20 for five servings I think, but these guys go through tons of eggs and chicken and tuna a week. Im all for chicken and eggs etc for bulkin, and maybe havin a few shakes a day but tbh I think that ON whey is one of the best. You guys know of any better wheys out there atm?

Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg_press

Thats true animal pak is something like £20 for five servings I think, but these guys go through tons of eggs and chicken and tuna a week. Im all for chicken and eggs etc for bulkin, and maybe havin a few shakes a day but tbh I think that ON whey is one of the best. You guys know of any better wheys out there atm?

I think ON whey is great too. I usually purchase whey from AllTheWhey, one of this site's sponsors. Both are good in my opinion.

Posted by: Gordo

Bump to protein requirements.... a fairly recent paper on the subject:

http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.or...1-42-50-06.pdf

Posted by: cpush

ive pondered this macronutrient distribution issue many times. being in college, putting a heavier % towards carbs is MUCH more affordable. especially with a food co-op down the road.

however, I never feel as 'hard' as when my carbs are lowered, Im guessing water retension?

also, is oats + pb a good complimentary protein source?

Posted by: IainDaniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpush

ive pondered this macronutrient distribution issue many times. being in college, putting a heavier % towards carbs is MUCH more affordable. especially with a food co-op down the road.

however, I never feel as 'hard' as when my carbs are lowered, Im guessing water retension?

also, is oats + pb a good complimentary protein source?

I think for the most part unless cutting people over do it on Protein.

what do you mean by complimentary?

Posted by: CowPimp

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpush

I think bread and PB is, but I don't know about oats.

Posted by: wilwn

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

"t-fag"

Posted by: Plateau_Max

Have any of you guys heard of Patrick Halford? He's the founder of this place called "The Institute for Optimal Nutrition"

I've been reading a book I just bought by him (I really need to go back to the states I'm running out of places to stow all these damn books) and his views are fighting with a lot of what I've been reading previously but there are so many researches and studies by other doctors that back everything up it's hard to gauge at times... I think I'm gonna make a new thread about it.

Anyway a point that was made which some may not consider is that protein is acid forming and needs to be balanced out with alkaline foods, another reason why too much isn't such a good idea.

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