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NFL Quarterbacks


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Posted by: the nut

How long before the NFL institutes the Quarterback 2 hand touch rule. You can't hit them high, can't hit them low, can't block them on int return, can't hit them when they start to slide. What gives?


Posted by: goandykid

Yeah it's lame, plus they get lots of bad calls just out of caution. it'll be a little better w/in the next few years, but never back to the old days.


Posted by: seyone

I believe that you need to protect your Qb's in the league. there aren't enough good ones around. that being said some of the calls are ridiculous.


Posted by: Malley

Those rules are awefully dumb sometimes. I think if a guy comes in and pushes a QB down with his hands there should be no flag, but if hes coming in head hunting thats different. However they do treat them like babies. Hell they are bult better than most punters and punters can take a hit after they kick the ball.


Posted by: themamasan

Yeah, I am so sick of seeing refs treat the QB's like they are precious little 6-year old girls.

I have seen numerous times this year a QB take a "hit" from a Defensive Lineman (who is probably 6'5 320lbs) and not go down, and in fact barely even flinch. Then I watch the replay to see the lineman had to "baby" him by being completely afraid of getting a personal foul. Of course then the QB "gets away" and throws a TD.

I forget which game it was, but yesterday someone barely pushed the QB after he threw the ball, the QB didn't even fall down, and the defensive guy got a "roughing the passer" penalty (15 yards). Even the announcer said it was B.S. (in a nice way of course). The ref should have been fired on the spot for that dumbass call.


Posted by: the nut

Anyone else think the strict rules led to Mathias Kiwanuka letting Vince Young go as opposed to slamming his ass into the turf?


Posted by: bio-chem

Quote:
Originally Posted by the nut View Post
Anyone else think the strict rules led to Mathias Kiwanuka letting Vince Young go as opposed to slamming his ass into the turf?
exactly, this is the downside of rules being called differently everytime. there is no clearcut rule in the league anymore its now discretionary from the refs. kind of like in basketball how guys get ejected for argueing a call without really doing anything


Posted by: Dale Mabry

That is exactly why he let him go.


Posted by: P-funk

Is the QB a football player? Yes.

So why does he need to be protected anymore than anyone else? Do we have unnessecary roughness calls for people who hit WRs when they make a catch over the middle? nope. Why are they any different? They are completely explosed like that, but they still take the hit.

it is bull shit. a lot of those calls are gay.


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Mabry View Post
That is exactly why he let him go.
Maybe, but if he heard no whistle, he should have wrapped him up.

Aggressive mistakes are generally better than passive ones.


Posted by: Dale Mabry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Maybe, but if he heard no whistle, he should have wrapped him up.

Aggressive mistakes are generally better than passive ones.
I believe he thought the ball had been released, not that the play had ended, thus no whistle.


Posted by: the nut

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Mabry View Post
I believe he thought the ball had been released, not that the play had ended, thus no whistle.
Correct!


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Mabry View Post
I believe he thought the ball had been released, not that the play had ended, thus no whistle.
I've never heard an excuse like that before. Is that what he really said?

He put his head down to tackle Young and did not know if the ball was thrown.

“I thought he had thrown the ball,” Kiwanuka said. “He had started his passing motion when I put my head down to drive through him. At that point I thought it was going to be a 15-yard penalty for roughing the passer if I drove him to the ground. Obviously, I made a mistake that cost us the game.”
http://www.giants.com/news/eisen/sto...story_id=23322

Maybe next time he'll keep his head up when tackling. What a dumbass.


Posted by: the nut

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
I've never heard an excuse like that before. Is that what he really said?

He put his head down to tackle Young and did not know if the ball was thrown.

“I thought he had thrown the ball,” Kiwanuka said. “He had started his passing motion when I put my head down to drive through him. At that point I thought it was going to be a 15-yard penalty for roughing the passer if I drove him to the ground. Obviously, I made a mistake that cost us the game.”
http://www.giants.com/news/eisen/sto...story_id=23322

Maybe next time he'll keep his head up when tackling. What a dumbass.
Yes, keep your head up so the top of your helmet hit the bottom QB's facemask and that's 15 yards.

Next time, just crack the fucker, and let the refs throw the flag. At least he keeps his pride.


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by the nut View Post
Yes, keep your head up so the top of your helmet hit the bottom QB's facemask and that's 15 yards.

Next time, just crack the fucker, and let the refs throw the flag. At least he keeps his pride.
Keeping the head up is textbook tackling. Also, the guy would have seen that Young had the damn ball in his hands. The kid made a mistake in proper technique. Why did that kid make the conclusion that Young had thrown the ball if he couldn't see what Young was doing? This was all the player's fault and should not be blamed on a rule.

I agree to the extent that a mistake made should be an aggressive mistake.

Why stop with protecting the QB? Let's also bring back the clothesline, the horsecollar, crackback blocking, blocking below the waste on kickoffs and punts, clipping etc.

Let's face it, the QB position is unique. Besides the obvious commercial reasons for protecting a QB, no one else on the field of play has, at a minimum, 3 players coming after his ass on every single play and no other player opens his body to contact the way a throwing quarterback does. Incidental hits and hits after a pass is released on prone (throwing) QBs are devestating.


Posted by: Dale Mabry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Keeping the head up is textbook tackling. Also, the guy would have seen that Young had the damn ball in his hands. The kid made a mistake in proper technique. Why did that kid make the conclusion that Young had thrown the ball if he couldn't see what Young was doing? This was all the player's fault and should not be blamed on a rule.
Head up or not, there would be no way he would have known whether or not the ball had been released as far into the tackle as he was. If his head was up when the motion occurred, he still would have been looking at the goal line behind Young, not at young himself.


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Mabry View Post
Head up or not, there would be no way he would have known whether or not the ball had been released as far into the tackle as he was. If his head was up when the motion occurred, he still would have been looking at the goal line behind Young, not at young himself.
Maybe it happened that way but I don't agree with that at all--If he were looking up he'd have known. Either he was looking down--poor tackling form--or he was leading with his head--an illegal use of the helmet in making a tackle--both excuses indicate improper tackling technique.

Assuming he couldn't see Young's throwing arm and the ball, he still decided that the ball was thrown so he let up fearing a penalty.

If he couldn't see if the ball was thrown or not, why'd he let up? He just assumed the ball was thrown? Based on what? He couldn't see what was going on and no whistle was blown. He just decided to stop playing.

I think I'd better get back to work. I have a boss circling my office and I'm plum out of buckshot.


Posted by: bio-chem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Maybe it happened that way but I don't agree with that at all--If he were looking up he'd have known. Either he was looking down--poor tackling form--or he was leading with his head--an illegal use of the helmet in making a tackle--both excuses indicate improper tackling technique.

Assuming he couldn't see Young's throwing arm and the ball, he still decided that the ball was thrown so he let up fearing a penalty.

If he couldn't see if the ball was thrown or not, why'd he let up? He just assumed the ball was thrown? Based on what? He couldn't see what was going on and no whistle was blown. He just decided to stop playing.

I think I'd better get back to work. I have a boss circling my office and I'm plum out of buckshot.
have you read any of this before you posted? he said when he got to him young was in his throwing motion. the tape confirms this. and you can have the best technique ever and yet still not see whether the guy throws the ball or not. there are so many variables involved in what your able to see even with perfect form. your post makes little sense to me. how can you see a mans arm when your head is burried in his chest or side upon impact???

the rule needs to be changed and clarified so this doesnt happen, and players are allowed to play football.


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by bio-chem View Post
have you read any of this before you posted? he said when he got to him young was in his throwing motion. the tape confirms this. and you can have the best technique ever and yet still not see whether the guy throws the ball or not. there are so many variables involved in what your able to see even with perfect form. your post makes little sense to me. how can you see a mans arm when your head is burried in his chest or side upon impact???

the rule needs to be changed and clarified so this doesnt happen, and players are allowed to play football.
Just what point are you trying to make?
Is it B/c some rook blew a play we should get rid of personal fouls against the quarterback?

"I thought he was throwing the ball," Kiwanuka said. "I thought he went into his passing motion. If I drive him in, at that point I thought it was going to be a 15-yard penalty. Obviously, I made a mistake that cost us the game."

Looks like the rookie blew it. He thought he was in a passing motion?--this kid never heard of a pump fake.

You do not understand the rules. If a player has his head buried in the chest of an opposing player during a tackle, that's a penalty too.


13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent. 14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.
http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/penaltysummaries

Also, if you cannot see a person's throwing arm upon a side impact I'd suggest a vision test.


Posted by: bio-chem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Just what point are you trying to make?
Is it B/c some rook blew a play we should get rid of personal fouls against the quarterback?

"I thought he was throwing the ball," Kiwanuka said. "I thought he went into his passing motion. If I drive him in, at that point I thought it was going to be a 15-yard penalty. Obviously, I made a mistake that cost us the game."

Looks like the rookie blew it. He thought he was in a passing motion?--this kid never heard of a pump fake.

You do not understand the rules. If a player has his head buried in the chest of an opposing player during a tackle, that's a penalty too.


13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent. 14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.
http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/penaltysummaries

Also, if you cannot see a person's throwing arm upon a side impact I'd suggest a vision test.
i dont think ive ever been as frustrated with a persons obviously obtuse and ridiculous remarks as i have reading your posts on this thread. if your face mask is in his chest, your helmet is in his chest yet he is not butting, spearing, or raming. yeah the rookie blew it. he didnt drive the guy to the ground because if young had released the ball and he drove him to the ground it would potentially have been a flag. and he didnt want to give up 15 yards and an automatic first down that would have potentially cost his team the game. the exact reason that everyone is calling for a rule clarification. as is there is ambiguity that makes players indecisive on how they should play the game.


Posted by: Dale Mabry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Just what point are you trying to make?
Is it B/c some rook blew a play we should get rid of personal fouls against the quarterback?

"I thought he was throwing the ball," Kiwanuka said. "I thought he went into his passing motion. If I drive him in, at that point I thought it was going to be a 15-yard penalty. Obviously, I made a mistake that cost us the game."

Looks like the rookie blew it. He thought he was in a passing motion?--this kid never heard of a pump fake.

You do not understand the rules. If a player has his head buried in the chest of an opposing player during a tackle, that's a penalty too.


13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent. 14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.
http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/penaltysummaries

Also, if you cannot see a person's throwing arm upon a side impact I'd suggest a vision test.
The guy had perfect tackling form, he just never finished it. IMO, the rule is just called too liberally and he was afraid to get the penalty. Late hit on the QB has been called a ton this year, this is what lead to him letting up. As for his tackling form...Try this. Get someone in a double leg takedown, as in wrestling, which has the same form as tackling. Head out to the side, arms wrapped around his waist. Now tell me what he is doing with the hand opposite the side you shot in on...It's not possible with good form. Now, try to do it with no peripheral vision because you are wearing a helmet. Even more difficult. No one is saying that they should stop calling roughing the passer or late hit, only that it is being called way too much for little reason.


Posted by: bio-chem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Mabry View Post
The guy had perfect tackling form, he just never finished it. IMO, the rule is just called too liberally and he was afraid to get the penalty. Late hit on the QB has been called a ton this year, this is what lead to him letting up. As for his tackling form...Try this. Get someone in a double leg takedown, as in wrestling, which has the same form as tackling. Head out to the side, arms wrapped around his waist. Now tell me what he is doing with the hand opposite the side you shot in on...It's not possible with good form. Now, try to do it with no peripheral vision because you are wearing a helmet. Even more difficult. No one is saying that they should stop calling roughing the passer or late hit, only that it is being called way too much for little reason.



Posted by: IainDaniel

I don't know, I always remember being told to drive the Riddell label on the helmet right into the person you are tackling. Do so would mean not being able to see the finish of the play.

With that said if he has him wrapped up and the ball has been thrown, then he continues with the tackle, he would have been called with unnecessary roughness. So I can understand his position. But he should have just finished the tackle, and deal with the repercussions later.


Posted by: Dale Mabry

I would like to point out that I think it is his fault regardless of the rule.


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by bio-chem View Post
i dont think ive ever been as frustrated with a persons obviously obtuse and ridiculous remarks as i have reading your posts on this thread. if your face mask is in his chest, your helmet is in his chest yet he is not butting, spearing, or raming. yeah the rookie blew it. he didnt drive the guy to the ground because if young had released the ball and he drove him to the ground it would potentially have been a flag. and he didnt want to give up 15 yards and an automatic first down that would have potentially cost his team the game. the exact reason that everyone is calling for a rule clarification. as is there is ambiguity that makes players indecisive on how they should play the game.
Driving a player into the ground is also a penalty.

There is little ambiguity in the rule. What is in contention is that refs are making some errors in making the call. A sensible solution is to have that type of penalty subject to replay. Liken it to whether a catch is made inbounds. Officials blow that call routinely but the underlying rule doesn't need clarification.

The argument that the rookie was influenced by the big bad rule may be legitimate but it's weak. You say he didn't want to cost his team the game, well his chosen course of action did cost them the game.

What rule are we talking about anyway?

"obvious obtuse and ridiculous remarks"....kiss it buddy.


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Mabry View Post
The guy had perfect tackling form, he just never finished it. IMO, the rule is just called too liberally and he was afraid to get the penalty. Late hit on the QB has been called a ton this year, this is what lead to him letting up. As for his tackling form...Try this. Get someone in a double leg takedown, as in wrestling, which has the same form as tackling. Head out to the side, arms wrapped around his waist. Now tell me what he is doing with the hand opposite the side you shot in on...It's not possible with good form. Now, try to do it with no peripheral vision because you are wearing a helmet. Even more difficult. No one is saying that they should stop calling roughing the passer or late hit, only that it is being called way too much for little reason.
The football helmets I wore permitted peripheral vision to function. Maybe things have changed but I doubt it.

You either have a sack (hahahha), a broken tackle, a late hit, or are in the grasp. It is incumbent on the defender to know if the ball's been thrown or not in trying to sack the QB. There are exceptions to every rule--like being pushed into the opposing player by another player--but the rule is sound.

Dale, I understand what you're saying and I haven't seen the play itself since the weekend. I agree with you that the penalty rule is fine...it's the officials that are the weak link. Instant replay could fix the problem like it does for reviewing whether a ball is caught inbounds.


Posted by: Decker

Does anyone have a video clip of this play that can be posted here?


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by IainDaniel View Post
......he should have just finished the tackle, and deal with the repercussions later.
Agreed. For tackling, you keep your head up, train your eyes on the breadbasket and drive your shoulder through the opponent as you wrap him up.


You never tackle with your helmet or facemask.


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by bio-chem View Post
...as is there is ambiguity that makes players indecisive on how they should play the game.
What is the ambiguity you are talking about and how would you fix it?


Posted by: IainDaniel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgcpgFS8D40


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by IainDaniel View Post
Thanks Iain.

Look at that play:

Head down, He didn't wrap up and even if Young had thrown the ball, tackling him would have been ok b/c the hit wasn't late--it was a natural progression of the play. By that I mean he didn't have to take an extra step or move to hit the quarterback--he already had him in his grasp and Young was backpedaling. Throwing the ball at that moment was irrelevant to whether a roughing penalty could be called. Just a rookie mistake.

Now if he wanted to "drive" him into the ground, that would have been a penalty.


Posted by: bio-chem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post

What rule are we talking about anyway?

"obvious obtuse and ridiculous remarks"....kiss it buddy.
so your willing to argue a point when your unsure what point it is your agueing?? seems my comments about obtuse and ridiculous are more applicable than ever.


Posted by: Doublebase

I think Donovan MacNabb is the best quarterback in the NFL.


Posted by: bio-chem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
What is the ambiguity you are talking about and how would you fix it?
the ambiguity lies in how the rule is being called on the field. would he have been flagged for roughing the passer even though he had him wrapped up before young would have let go of the ball? if the answer is yes, and there is a lot of past calls this season to support that, then the game is being unfairly changed in favor of the qb. every analyst on every station ive watched have stated their belief the league is trying to overprotect the qb. the league instructed the refs to call these plays for a roughing of the passer if there is any question at all in the refs minds. it is being called too liberally by the refs becuase of the instruction they have recieved from the league.


Posted by: bio-chem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Thanks Iain.

Look at that play:

Head down, He didn't wrap up and even if Young had thrown the ball, tackling him would have been ok b/c the hit wasn't late--it was a natural progression of the play. By that I mean he didn't have to take an extra step or move to hit the quarterback--he already had him in his grasp and Young was backpedaling. Throwing the ball at that moment was irrelevant to whether a roughing penalty could be called. Just a rookie mistake.

Now if he wanted to "drive" him into the ground, that would have been a penalty.
thats the whole point. the fact that the roughing the passer has been called so liberally this season is making DE's gun shy to finishing the play like they should. we can both agree that even if he takeled him no flag should have been thrown, however many times this season flags have been thrown on similar plays, hence he was hesitant to finish tackleing young


Posted by: bio-chem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublebase View Post
I think Donovan MacNabb is the best quarterback in the NFL.
how can a qb who is out this season, much of last, and part of next be the best qb in the nfl?


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by bio-chem View Post
the ambiguity lies in how the rule is being called on the field. would he have been flagged for roughing the passer even though he had him wrapped up before young would have let go of the ball? if the answer is yes, and there is a lot of past calls this season to support that, then the game is being unfairly changed in favor of the qb. every analyst on every station ive watched have stated their belief the league is trying to overprotect the qb. the league instructed the refs to call these plays for a roughing of the passer if there is any question at all in the refs minds. it is being called too liberally by the refs becuase of the instruction they have recieved from the league.
We have 2 options--play w/ the perceived blown calls or use Instant Replay.

As a matter of course, I don't like whining (only when it's fun) about the officiating--that's always weak. But I have seen some pretty bad calls too. I'd rather live with the bad calls than resort to instant replay. As for the play in the giants game, that was just a rookie mistake. If the roughing the passer rule was playing in his head, he should have read the chapter in the rulebook about continuation and late hits.

The real culprit of bad rules that change games is the pass interference rule. That one changes far too many games irretrievably.


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by bio-chem View Post
so your willing to argue a point when your unsure what point it is your agueing?? seems my comments about obtuse and ridiculous are more applicable than ever.
I was very clear about my points--from proper technique for form tackling to continuation in determining a late hit.

It was your rambling responses that raised the rhetorical question of, "What the hell are we talking about?"...I'm used to this though.


Posted by: bio-chem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
I was very clear about my points--from proper technique for form tackling to continuation in determining a late hit.

It was your rambling responses that raised the rhetorical question of, "What the hell are we talking about?"...I'm used to this though.
and yet at each turn we still find you incorrect.


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by bio-chem View Post
and yet at each turn we still find you incorrect.
Only in your own solipsistic existence.


Posted by: IainDaniel

If they really wanted to protect the quarterback then they should have blown the whistle when Young was driven back 5 yds. What happend to no more forward movement.

That is the big problem is the lack of clarity in the rules.


Posted by: Decker

Quote:
Originally Posted by IainDaniel View Post
If they really wanted to protect the quarterback then they should have blown the whistle when Young was driven back 5 yds. What happend to no more forward movement.

That is the big problem is the lack of clarity in the rules.
Yeah, it did look close to 'in-the-grasp.' I also think that Jim McMahon has a point in saying that modern QBs should be put in a dress.

An anecdotal point: I've had 280# tackles/ends fall on me when I was quarterbacking in highschool and that was something I never forgot. Makes me side with the dress-wearers...I mean quarterbacks.


Posted by: bio-chem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Only in your own solipsistic existence.
nice put down. i like that


Posted by: Dale Mabry

Replay really isn't going to work, it is a judgment call that just gets called too quickly. It has happened so many times this year, and it kills the defense because it is 15 yds and an automatic first down. I bet if you would look at all of the calls this year, I would bet a good deal of them happen on 4th down. It's as if the refs just look for a reason to keep the game going.What needs to happen is the refs get fined for incorrect calls or get suspended after so many. In all honesty, though, I have no idea what the league said to the refs, so it could be the league's fault.



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