Best protein right after workout? [Forum Archive]

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Best protein right after workout?

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Posted by: InGearX

You may take a look my specific page of info, goals, picture... at http://www.hackin.to/ingearx/ as it will probably help...

Best protein right after workout?

I hear "Whey isolate" protein has best absorbtion rate, followed by "Whey concentrate" but that is over all absorption... (not speed)

Question 1) but is it fast?

Question 2) What brand and exact package you recommend I buy, so it breaks down quickly to go to work right after that hard workout?

Thank you all...

Posted by: kuso

Personally, I don`t think it`s all that big a point to worry about Isolate or Concentrate, and which is better, as long as you use whey post workout......bodybuilders of yester-year didn`t even have that, but they still grew

As for brand, just go with a reputable company.......Optimum is one of the more popular as it is very cheap.

I think too many beginners ( not necessarily meaning you ) get hung up on the tiniest details, and forget the bigger picture.

Posted by: KataMaStEr

After work out one of the best proteins to take is , casein because it has a prolonged effect on the level of amino acids in the body, this leads to an anti-catabolic effect. Whey just give a quick boost in amino's which is the best for post workout. There is a difference between whey isolate and why concentrate. Whey isolates yield over 90 grams of protein per 100 grams of whey, more weight is gained from every gram of whey isolate taken. Whey concentrate can yield a protein ratio of 34 to 89 grams of protein per 100 grams of whey. Optimum Nutrition 100% whey is a good protein powder for post work out they have about three different whey protein in their blend. Labrada V60 I would prefer over Optimum 100% whey after workout b/c it has about 5 different types of proteins including caseinate.

Posted by: kuso

Quote:

Originally posted by KataMaStEr
After work out one of the best proteins to take is , casein because it has a prolonged effect on the level of amino acids in the body, this leads to an anti-catabolic effect. Whey just give a quick boost in amino's which is the best for post workout.

I`m kinda confused here.......whey is best for after workout, a blend for other times....is this what you meant to say?

Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

I bet he's read that article on t-mag

It's actually a really good idea, theortetically.

You mix whey and casein for post workout that way you get fast acting protein (whey) digesting quick and elevating protein synthesis quickest so when the casein gradually digests it keeps protein synthesis elevated for longer.

I can't say for sure, but i'd suspect that the casein digestion would also slow the whey digestion to some extent and maybe doesn't work as well as it could.

If you ask me i'd say stick to whey straight after training and then get some solid food down yer neck about 60-90 minutes later. That'll sort ya.

P.s. I believe hydrolysed whey is "better" than isolate, albeit probably not worth the extra cost. (unless you can get a good deal from protein factory.)

Posted by: w8lifter

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

I can't say for sure, but i'd suspect that the casein digestion would also slow the whey digestion to some extent and maybe doesn't work as well as it could.

That's what I would think too?

Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Was that a question?

Posted by: Tank316

here's what i have been trying these last 2 months. when i'm done lifting, with in a minutes time, i'm downing 40 grams of whey concentrate.i keep it in a cooler that i take right to the gym with me.now, with in a 40-90 minute time frame i also take my post work out drink.i can tell a slight difference in my recovery time. and when i say a slight difference i mean after 20 + years you know how to read your what your body is saying

Posted by: Tank316

InGearX..............nice webpage man.

Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:

Originally posted by Tank316
here's what i have been trying these last 2 months. when i'm done lifting, with in a minutes time, i'm downing 40 grams of whey concentrate.i keep it in a cooler that i take right to the gym with me.now, with in a 40-90 minute time frame i also take my post work out drink.i can tell a slight difference in my recovery time.

I don't understand, you drink just the protein straight after and then within 90 minutes have more protein? With carbs this time?

Posted by: evilregis

After your workout you would want to take your protein with a high GI carb like dextrose (corn sugar at your bulk store) to create an insulin spike to get that protein into your body asap.

In your post workout meal, I believe you would take that with your regular carb sources... low GI. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone...

Posted by: KataMaStEr

Quote:

Originally posted by kuso

I`m kinda confused here.......whey is best for after workout, a blend for other times....is this what you meant to say?

Well u have way more experience than I do so fix me if I’m wrong, but here is what I think. Whey alone is not as good for after workout as it is for post workout b/c it is absorbed by the body way too fast. For after workout a blend of proteins like casein, whey, egg, would be best b/c it has slow and fast acting proteins which give the body constant amino’s

Posted by: KataMaStEr

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
I bet he's read that article on t-mag

U just lost ur bet. Believe it or not I have never read T-mag. The only bodybuilding magazine I have ever read as been Planet Muscle and that was when it was free. But I did get most of my information from proteinfactory and post I have read here.

Posted by: InGearX

unfortunately I see no concrete info... whey protein yes... but nothing new :-(

Quote:

Originally posted by Tank316
InGearX..............nice webpage man.

Thanks ;-) I made it last night for all you... cause on previous post people were like I'm not sure what your goals are...

Quote:

Originally posted by KataMaStEr
After work out one of the best proteins to take is , casein because
Whey just give a quick boost in amino's which is the best for post workout
Whey alone is not as good for after workout as it is for post workout b/c it is absorbed by the body way too fast

makes the most contradicting statements... (no pun intended)

Posted by: KataMaStEr

Quote:

Originally posted by InGearX
unfortunately I see no concrete info... whey protein yes... but nothing new :-(

Do some reseach buddy. It will not hurt you!!!

Posted by: Tank316

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

I don't understand, you drink just the protein straight after and then within 90 minutes have more protein? With carbs this time?

yes with carbs 40-90 min[my post w/o drink] protein right after my last set.

Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

I'm not sure why you do that though, since most the whey you take in straight after training will be digested rather quickly and will mostly be oxidised by the liver and used as carbs to rpelenish glycogen stores. Seems like an expensive method considering you could do it with dextrose for a good deal cheaper.

Posted by: Tank316

i guess i hav'nt been to concerned with it replenising my glycogen because i'm taken in so many carbs during the day while i'm bulking,i dont think i'm depleting my entire stores or even for the fact that i work 10 hrs a day my main concern has been replenishing my amino pools.i understand your thought. but it also take some time for the whey to digest, hence my post w/o drink. with carbs. i have some info i'll post later.

Posted by: Tank316

TCD, heres the article, i feel that its good stuff.

Posted by: Tank316

now with me being a rookie at computers, please feel free to kick my ass if it doesnt work.

Posted by: w8lifter

Here Tank...I added the info for you so ya don't have to download it

Precision Supplement Timing

Maximize Muscle Growth With Precise
Timing of Supplementation. - Part 4

By Paul Cribb B.H.Sci.HMS. Exercise Physiologist

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

he past few articles have unearthed some incredible muscle building secrets published recently in scientific reviews. First, let’s briefly review the main points of these findings then we’ll examine the evidence that reveals the mechanics of how to push muscle growth way past your previous expectations. We are going to look at the science behind dramatically manipulating muscle growth with correct use of the right supplements.

This information has never been pieced together before, anywhere in the body building world, it is state-of-the-art. It forms a clear picture of how to safely build slabs of muscle that will transform your physique. Real muscle that doesn’t require the crutches of drug use and will stay with you for the rest of your life. Most important, it is backed by an abundance of scientific literature.

Research now demonstrates skeletal muscle is not some inert reservoir from which the building blocks of protein and enzymes are obtained. Skeletal muscle is dynamic, it is the central organ that actively collaborates and participates in all amino acid transport and exchange with other tissues throughout the body. This occurs via two amino acid "pools" in skeletal muscle, one bound in muscle proteins and the much smaller "free-form" amino acid pool.

However, the body views these two reservoirs as one single homogenous pool as they are constantly interacting. Large amounts of amino acids move through this small pool each day, although the size of this pool never alters. This is because it is the initial supply of amino acids that meet all metabolic demands. The impact of exercise draws enormous amounts of amino acids from this free pool to the active site (exercised muscle). However, as the size of the small free pool is never altered, it’s constant, continuous replenishment occurs via breakdown of the larger pool, muscle! This is the reason muscle is extremely difficult to build and why many do not achieve the results they desire from their training.

Rebuilding, replacing large amounts of muscle protein is not a major, significant pathway of amino acid metabolism in adults. Human physiology is not concerned with depositing net muscle increases unless it absolutely has to. To make matters worse, these muscle-building pathways diminish a little with each passing decade. Therefore the small amounts of amino acids in this free pool govern all metabolic influences within the body, the degree of their metabolism dictates how much muscle tissue is catabolised (broken down) or maintained throughout life.

Major and rapid changes occur in muscle amino acid pools during all exercise. It is now confirmed that muscle occupies a central place in the production of energy (ATP), especially during exercise. Not as a direct fuel competing with fatty acids, blood glucose and muscle glycogen, but as precursors for the synthesis of anaerobic and aerobic energy cycle intermediates.

The aerobic energy cycle is also known by many names. Many texts refer to it as the Krebs cycle, TCA cycle or the Citric Acid Cycle, confusing I know, however they all mean the same thing! While the anaerobic and aerobic pathways represent opposite ends of the energy production spectrum, during exercise constant ATP (energy) regeneration is maintained via interplay of all energy pathways. This is a level of performance precision and integrated synergy that makes the latest Formula One racing teams look like kids with Fisher-Price Toys!

The view that all energy systems integrate to regenerate ATP levels no matter what the exercise is revolutionary. Most experts think they can keep use of different energy systems separated nicely when designing training protocols. However, this is not the case. An impact on one energy system has an impact on every other energy pathway, either directly or indirectly via utilization of its precursors - the material needed to power these systems.

Because of this tremendous impact, certain amino acids are metabolized in far greater amounts than previously suspected. It has been demonstrated that the branch chain amino acids (leucine, valine and isoluecine), glutamine and glutamate play vital roles as precursors to virtually all energy pathways. This aspect has previously been greatly underestimated. Unfortunately, this is real bad news if you are trying to build muscle. These are also the same amino acids that appear to be absolutely critical to muscle growth. Or more precisely, the amount of these particular amino acids retained in muscle appears to determine net muscle loss and gains. Research clearly demonstrates that most forms of exercise utilize these amino acids at such a phenomenal rate, little or nothing is left to affect mechanisms of muscle growth! In fact, there is research that demonstrates without supplementation of the precise materials of muscle growth, training on a regular diet produces muscle loss!10
Putting Science on Your Side.

This leads us to the next stage; examining how to push muscle growth beyond your best expectations simply by using the correct supplements at precisely the right time. If you are in any doubt this is possible, let’s look to the science.

A vital clue I reported earlier was that amino acids absorbed from the diet are kinetically indistinguishable from those already present in the body’s muscle amino acid pools.6 Also, the dramatic increases in protein synthesis and amino acid transport in exercised muscle occur regardless of the protein source.2

These two facts are important, they suggest that if the correct building materials (such as amino acids) are present, they will be utilized and incorporated into muscle. However, the aspect of supplement timing is essential to produce potent results. Let me show you why.

Large protein intakes not immediately required for cell anabolism (growth) are predominantly oxidized (burnt), used for other metabolic processes within the body.6 Remember, the size of the small free amino acid pool is tightly controlled and regulated.6,11 However, directly after training a large supply of quickly digested protein (amino acids) are needed to get to the active site to offset the dramatic 100% increases in amino acid transport and protein synthesis rates produced within the first 2 hours after weight training.5

If an external source of amino acids does not get there at precisely the right time, the result is an enormous drain on the small free amino acid pool and a subsequent breakdown of neighboring muscle proteins, all to keep replenishing the free pool and provide amino acids for the tremendously accelerated transport rates.2,3,4,6,11 A number of studies by Boilo and colleagues2,3,4 confirm this.

If an abundance of certain amino acids get to the active site directly after weight training, the result is a dramatic increase in muscle protein synthesis and turnover (the prerequisite mechanisms of building muscle) that produce net gains in muscle.2,3 While these studies utilized amino acid infusions, not oral supplement intake, the facts remain the same. If the correct building material gets there at precisely the right time, dramatic gains are witnessed.3 If they do not, the result is zero net gain in muscle.2 These results have been demonstrated in mammals a long time ago using oral intake of precisely formulated protein peptides (bonded amino acids). 13

Maximizing muscle growth via oral supplementation of a research-proven protein peptide formulation is an extremely exciting, progressive area of research. This is an area in which AST is intimately involved - designing peptide formulations for optimal, rapid assimilation and transportation of amino acids directly to the muscle. However, to produce a protein supplement with these very unique gastrojejunal kinetics requires extremely precise, state-of-the-art processing methods. That’s why AST Sport Science designed VP2, because when you are able to get large amounts of the correct amino acids to muscle at the right time, spectacular things happen. It's not just consuming x amount of grams of protein, it's consuming the right protein at the right time.

It has been recognized for some time that intracellular concentrations of certain amino acids profoundly regulate muscle breakdown and stimulate muscle anabolism.7,12 More precisely, it appears that the amount of particular amino acids retained within the muscle cell actually determines whether growth (anabolism) or breakdown (catabolism) occurs and therefore, how much muscle protein is ultimately built.2,3,4,8,11 However, no one in the sports science field has really addressed manipulating a muscle cell’s intracellular amino acid concentration to specifically create a condition that increases muscle mass.

Directly after training is the critical window of opportunity to dramatically manipulate muscle growth. Although the size of the smaller free-form amino acid pool held inside muscle cells is tightly controlled, a wide range in amino acid concentrations still exist.9 Directly after intense or prolonged training, intracellular concentrations of most amino acids are at their lowest and the presence of high concentrations of amino acids outside the cell, in the form of supplementation (hyperaminoacidemia), are shown to dramatically accelerate rates of amino acid transport into the muscle cell.9 Is this important? You bet!

Investigations conclude that the most important amino acids for building muscle actually have their own, exclusive cellular transport systems attached to the muscle cell membrane.14 I will review these transport systems later, for they indeed hold the key to manipulating muscle growth! However, studies with other mammals show that even within physiological (normally occurring) concentrations, muscle amino acid transport systems are not saturated.9,14 There is a lot of "room" for manipulation to stimulate these transporters to accelerate their uptake rates! Simply by increasing substrate (amino acid) availability to the muscle cell at the precise time can stimulate or turbo charge amino acid transport systems to drive amino acids into muscle cells to the upper limits of physiological concentrations.9 When this is achieved, great things happen.

Accelerated inward transport of amino acids is shown to switch muscle anabolism mechanisms on! Accelerated inward amino acid transport directly stimulates significant increases in protein synthesis.3 The higher physiological concentrations of amino acids inside the cell also dramatically stimulate protein synthesis rates.4,7 Increasing leucine and glutamine content within muscle stimulates protein synthesis profoundly.1,7 These factors combined, trigger dramatic increases in muscle cell volume (water content).7 This is the most potent muscle building mechanism there is!8 Increasing cell volume ensures a positive nitrogen balance and net muscle protein deposition.7,8 All the great stuff we’re after.

However, getting the right material into the cell and keeping it inside the cell are two completely different aspects. We’ve covered the first part, however, knowledge of how to stimulate the various amino acid cell transporters will help ensure the critical amino acids vital to muscle growth stay inside the cell to exert their potent effects. This cellular environment within your muscles must be maintained consistently. If you can achieve this, your muscle building potential is enormous!

References:

Anthony JC et al. Leucine supplementation enhances Skeletal muscle recovery in rats following exercise.J.Nutri 1999; 129;1102-06

Bolio G, Tipton KD, Klein S and Wolfe RR. Increased rates of muscle protein turnover and amino acid transport after resistance exercise in humans. Am.J.Physiol. 1995:268, E514-E520

Bolio G, Maggi P, Williams PD, Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. An abundant supply of amino acids enhances the metabolic effect of exercise on muscle protein. Am.J.Physiol.1997:273:E122-129

Bolio G, Flemming YRD, Maggi P, Wolfe RR. Transmembrane transport and intracellular kinetics of amino acids in human skeletal muscle. Am.J.Physiol 1995:268:E75-E84.

Chesley A et al. Changes in human muscle protein synthesis after resistance exercise. J.Appl. Physiol. 1992;73 (4):1383-1388.

Fern EB, Bielinski RN and Shultz Y. Effects of exaggerated amino acid and protein supply in man. Experimentia.1991;47:168-172.

Haussinger D. et al.Cellular hydration state: an important determinant of protein catabolism in health and disease. Lancet;1993;34:1330-1332.

Haussinger D. et al. Functional Significance of Cell Volume Regulatory Mechanisms Physiol Rev. 1998 Vol78.#1:247-272. Mero A, Leucine Supplementation and intensive training. Sports Med. 1999:27

6):347-358

Hundal HS, Rennie MJ and Watt PW. Characteristics of acid, basic and neutral amino acid transport in the perfused rat hindlimb. J.Physiol. 1989 (Lond) 391:1-11

Kinscherf R.et al. Low plasma glutamine in combination with high glutamate levels indicate risk for loss of body cell mass in healthy individuals: the effect of N-acetyl-cysteine.J.Mol.Med. 1996 vol 74:393-400

Mero A, Leucine Supplementation and intensive training. Sports Med. 1999:27

6):347-358

Mortimer GE, Pogo AR, Kudowaki M and West JJ. Multiphasic control of protein degradation by regulatory amino acids: general features and hormone modulation. J.Biol Chem.1992;262;26:E584-596

Pollain MG, et al. Effect of whey proteins, their oligopeptide hydrolysates and free amino acid mixtures on growth and nitrogen retention in fed and staved rats. JPEN. 1989:vol13#4:382-386.

Rennie MJ. Influence of exercise on protein and amino acid metabolism. Handbook of Physiology,Section 12 Exercise: Regulation and integration of multiple systems. Oxford, UK: University Press.1996:995-1035

Posted by: Tank316

you are a true sweetheart

Posted by: w8lifter

Quote:

Originally posted by Tank316
you are a true sweetheart

Aw spanks

Posted by: Tank316

is that lipstick on my cheek.

Posted by: kuso

Yes Tank, it is, but I think it`s mmafiters....w8 is standing beside him smiling

Posted by: Tank316

dawd dam it mmafiter, wait your turn.

Posted by: kuso

BWAHAHAHAHA

I knew thee was something a little strange about mmafiter

Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Hmmm...well, that hasn't actually said to take protein alone straight after training, and hasn't addressed amino acid oxidisation at all and also never stated whether the studies used carbs with the protein on the test subjects.

Alas, at least you gave me something to read, albeit i hardly took it seriously when i saw it was an AST article that was actualy trying to sell you something

Posted by: Tank316

well, some where in my other archives of stuff i have some other articles that went into even more detail .i'll keep searching for them.

Posted by: gopro

Immediately after training...hydrolyzed whey and dextrose...1 hour later...regular whole food protein/carb meal.

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