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Chest workout problem


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Posted by: Kickboxer

Training upper chest, I have a trouble upper pec, I do incline press, but my chest is not developing, as I would like it to. I would appreciate any guidance on building a full chest

Thank you


Posted by: sawheet

Try supersetting incline flys with flat barbell bench press(get a spotter or use a smith) That will hit the top of the chest big time and stimulate new growth for you. Do not do anymore flat dumbell or barbell presses for a while, and start your routing with heavy dumbell presses like this incline dumbell press five sets 15 reps 12 reps 10 reps 2 sets heavy 6 to 8 reps then superset incline dumbell flys with neck presses 4 sets non stop 12 to 15 reps. you can do 3 sets of heavy barbell incline at this time if you are an advanced lifter. after that superset flat dumbell flys with chin on chest dips, three sets non stop if you are advanced you can either do dumbell pullovers or high cable cross to failure for a finisher, only if you are advanced and have healthy shoulders


Posted by: TJohn

How often do you work your pecs ??

TJohn


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

What is your current chest routine?


Posted by: Yanks20

i knew i smelt a chicken around!!


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Great. Good for you.

At least you're assured of one sense working properly.


Posted by: Yanks20

Little testy today aren't we?


Posted by: Mudge

Not everything works for everyone, so posting your current routine would definately assist.

I am like most people, who do not develop the upper chest like the lower, with just flat benches. So with that in mind, I would start my chest day with incline presses, wether barbell or dumbell. I happen to really like dumbells for alot of movements nowdays.

If you feel like it, every 3rd week or so you can start your chest day with flat instead of incline, or whatever.


Posted by: Preacher

Give TCD a little credit for not flaming this one, will you.
The guy does know his stuff and could make for some sound advice ...


Posted by: Yanks20

Guess you haven't been around long enough to know that anytime a thread comes up about inclines TCD jumps all over it. Me personally I swear by doing inclines to build the upper chest and have gone back and forth with TCD about this topic in the past many, many times.


Posted by: Prince

the only thing that TCD will offer in this thread is his opinion on not being able to isolate or emphasize the upper chest with incline presses.


Posted by: Yanks20

and i'm all for a debate! yeah i know TCD doesn't think you can isolate the pectoral minor by doing inclines and how much his shoulders feel the brunt of doing inclines.


Posted by: Yanks20

i would try any of the following exercises to help bring up the upper portion of your chest. adding one to two to each chest session. plus as everyone else has said what is your current chest routine?

start with incline presses (DB or BB)
incline flies
pullovers
high cable crossovers


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by Yanks20
and i'm all for a debate! yeah i know TCD doesn't think you can isolate the pectoral minor by doing inclines and how much his shoulders feel the brunt of doing inclines.
Are you trying to say that the upper portion of the pectorals is the pec minor?

If so you are very much mistaken. The pec minor is underneath the pec major and runs over the 3rd to 5th ribs. Doing a slight incline does stress this muscle slightly more, but will not cause enough grow to warrant doing such an insignificant exercise. Not to mention the fact that the pec minor can be stressed with any pushing movements. It's even recruited to assist in overhead pressing movements.


I'm not gonna suggest anything until i see what hasn't been working for him this far.


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Insignificant in reguards to flat and slightly declined presses or dips.


Posted by: ponyboy

Simple fact is, there is only one pec major muscle. There is no such thing as an upper and lower pectoralis major muscle. Just like any other muscle, hitting it from different angles may stress different areas, but you can't take it section by section and expect each section to grow on their own. I would love to see the chest development of someone who ONLY does incline or decline pressing movements...their development overall would probably lag way behind someone who does flat bench as opposed to the other two. Anyone had this experience?


Posted by: john992

Off topic for one second here: IS PONYBOY my man DAVETHEWONDERPONY?


Posted by: Mudge

Vince Taylor is the only person I can recall who said that he got away with almost completely flat bench excersizes.

Even though its still the same muscle, you can still favor where the stress points are by varying your attack.


Posted by: TJohn

I do medium incline presses exclusively because my lower chest is big enough and I want to work more on the upper portion. I don't do flat anymore and I find that I can do just as much weight on med. incline. TCD, you're saying that full incline is worthless for upper chest development ?

TJohn


Posted by: Mudge

The bench I use is probably a 45º setup, certainly not a full incline like some that I've seen, I think it works out just fine, so far anyway.


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by ponyboy
I would love to see the chest development of someone who ONLY does incline or decline pressing movements...
It wouldn't help much cause genetics paly too much of a factor.


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by Mudge
Even though its still the same muscle, you can still favor where the stress points are by varying your attack.
But it won't cause significant growth in those areas.


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by TJohn
TCD, you're saying that full incline is worthless for upper chest development ?

Well there is no "upper chest" so from that sentence: yes.

If you said for "chest development" then i'd say they're not worthless, but they aren't necessary.


Posted by: TJohn

Quote:
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy



Well there is no "upper chest" so from that sentence: yes.

If you said for "chest development" then i'd say they're not worthless, but they aren't necessary.
Alright, what about a person that has an over large lower chest (not fat) and wants to creat the illusion of a more rounded chest. Wouldn't that person perform incline movements to put more emphasis on the top portion of the pecs ??

Also, what do you think about decline presses ??

TJohn


Posted by: Mudge

Quote:
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


But it won't cause significant growth in those areas.
I disagree, because that is exactly how I get my upper chest in-line with the rest, by doing incline presses first and doing the lower stuff later, otherwise I definately have a much larger lower chest.


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by TJohn


Alright, what about a person that has an over large lower chest (not fat) and wants to creat the illusion of a more rounded chest. Wouldn't that person perform incline movements to put more emphasis on the top portion of the pecs ??

Also, what do you think about decline presses ??

TJohn
They can do incline presses until they're blue in the face, they won't cause significant difference.

Decline presses are ok. Bit of a buggar to get into a comfortable position though. I much prefer weighted dips.


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by Mudge


I disagree, because that is exactly how I get my upper chest in-line with the rest, by doing incline presses first and doing the lower stuff later, otherwise I definately have a much larger lower chest.

And you've spent time NOT doing inclines and noticed your lower chest grow more have you?

You may just be lucky enough to have genetics that give the appearance of a good "all-over" chest.


Posted by: Mudge

Quote:
And you've spent time NOT doing inclines and noticed your lower chest grow more have you?
Yes, this is why I prefer inclines first over any flat or decline movement. I do not have Vince Taylor genetics, but my chest has always been pretty responsive.


Posted by: TJohn

TCD,

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that genetic have a major part in the way we look and how our bodies develope. But this is all too much for me, why do we have all these different exercises that are supposed to hit different areas of a muscle when it supposedly doesn't matter what we do ?? Then we should all just do bb curls for bis, flat bench for chest, mil press for shoulders bla bla bla. I'm not likin' it

TJohn


Posted by: Mudge

I think someone that gets all thier chest development from single angular training is a rare individual indeed. People have been changing foot position for calf excersizes (not met just yet), and etc for a long time, so I'm not ready to absorb your ideas just yet.

I know where I feel the stress, and I know where I see the results, and flat bench doesn't cover it all for me.


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Ah, now you two seem to be jumping to conclusions here. I've never said only do one exercise for each muscle group, although you could probably get away with it, providing you chose the "right" exercises.

Now this is a chest debate, so let's forget other muscles for now. There are slight exceptions (deltiods for instance.)

Now, why do extra exercise for chest? I've discussed this to quite a degree in past threads so i'll sumemrise it now.

Flat bench, for instance, is a great exercise. Only problem is that there are "weak links", as with any compound movement. Therefore, delts may give out before you've given your chest enough stimulation to instanciate growth. So i do weighted dips because it stresses my front delts to a lesser degree and also puts my tris in a stronger position. This exercise also aids my overall pushing strength and can assist my bench progression. Then i may move onto flyes because it's the closest to isolation you can get for the chest. This takes almost all of my delts and tris out of the picture and allows more focus on the chest. Not to mention that "isolation" tend to be good for local IGF-1 release.

By now my chest workout is done and i'm either good to go home or good to start on another muscle. Seems minimal, i know, but as long as i know i'm progressing then i know i'm growing, broadly speaking.

This applies for every bodypart i do. The back is collectively several muscles so several exercises are beneficial to effectively stimulate growth in all muscles. Not to mention arm muscles again being the weak links in pulling exercises.

Lower back and abs tend to be weak links for squats, so leg presses or hacks or extentions etc.. are performed.

Triceps only need one exercise cause, even though they have three heads, they only have two insertion points so the triceps either contracts or it doesn't. Simple as that. Whether you can stress one head more than the other is irrelevant cause it won't cause growth of any significance. Biceps have two insertions and either contracts or doesn't. No peak or lengthening can be done.

Deltoids are a different story though, but that doesn't really need to be addressed.

TJohn, why are you not liking it? Once you grasp that you don't need to do that much then you'll realise you can spend less time in the gym breaking yourself down and more time resting and growing.


Posted by: Mudge

If you tell us how much your growing per month or year, whichever you prefer, then maybe it will lend some credence. For me however, I know that just flat benches wont cut it. You mention that your delts get tired? Not mine, that is again where we are different. Not everyone gets the same effect out of benches, wide grip benches have always bothered my shoulders if I go heavy, but it definately percentage wise affects my chest more than anything else, but leaves my upper chest a little flat (not totally, but not enough development). If I could do just one excersize for chest, it would probably be 45º dumbell presses.


Posted by: TJohn

Quote:
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Ah, now you two seem to be jumping to conclusions here. I've never said only do one exercise for each muscle group, although you could probably get away with it, providing you chose the "right" exercises.

Now this is a chest debate, so let's forget other muscles for now. There are slight exceptions (deltiods for instance.)

Now, why do extra exercise for chest? I've discussed this to quite a degree in past threads so i'll sumemrise it now.

Flat bench, for instance, is a great exercise. Only problem is that there are "weak links", as with any compound movement. Therefore, delts may give out before you've given your chest enough stimulation to instanciate growth. So i do weighted dips because it stresses my front delts to a lesser degree and also puts my tris in a stronger position. This exercise also aids my overall pushing strength and can assist my bench progression. Then i may move onto flyes because it's the closest to isolation you can get for the chest. This takes almost all of my delts and tris out of the picture and allows more focus on the chest. Not to mention that "isolation" tend to be good for local IGF-1 release.

By now my chest workout is done and i'm either good to go home or good to start on another muscle. Seems minimal, i know, but as long as i know i'm progressing then i know i'm growing, broadly speaking.

This applies for every bodypart i do. The back is collectively several muscles so several exercises are beneficial to effectively stimulate growth in all muscles. Not to mention arm muscles again being the weak links in pulling exercises.

Lower back and abs tend to be weak links for squats, so leg presses or hacks or extentions etc.. are performed.

Triceps only need one exercise cause, even though they have three heads, they only have two insertion points so the triceps either contracts or it doesn't. Simple as that. Whether you can stress one head more than the other is irrelevant cause it won't cause growth of any significance. Biceps have two insertions and either contracts or doesn't. No peak or lengthening can be done.

Deltoids are a different story though, but that doesn't really need to be addressed.

TJohn, why are you not liking it? Once you grasp that you don't need to do that much then you'll realise you can spend less time in the gym breaking yourself down and more time resting and growing.
TCD, just to let you know I'm not one of those that does tons of exercises and spends 2 hrs per workout. I only do 2 at the most 3 different exercises per muscle group and I'm done my workouts right around 1 hr. Also, I only work each muscle group every 7 days. And, I'm not an expert at this (obviously).

I'm still not sure about the not being able to hit the upper chest with incline presses. You definitely have a different view on training. I'll be reading your posts.

TJohn


Posted by: Mudge

I'm 45-60 minutes at most, so I likewise dont believe in sitting there for hours. I think what is key here is that not everyone is the same (we knew this already), for me I cannot just do flat benches and have an awesome chest.


Posted by: Scotty the Body

Quote:
Originally posted by Kickboxer
Training upper chest, I have a trouble upper pec, I do incline press, but my chest is not developing, as I would like it to. I would appreciate any guidance on building a full chest

Thank you
I think you guys scared pore Kickboxer away.

If your still around Kickboxer, list your workout and your stats so we can give you some help here.

TCD, your my hero!! hehehehhehehe, I love the whole chest debate!!


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by Mudge
If you tell us how much your growing per month or year, whichever you prefer, then maybe it will lend some credence.
I realise it helps people believe, but just cause someone isn't huge doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.

Here's an example. Tell me, would you take diet advice off someone who looks like this?




Quote:
Originally posted by Mudge
For me however, I know that just flat benches wont cut it. You mention that your delts get tired? Not mine, that is again where we are different. Not everyone gets the same effect out of benches, wide grip benches have always bothered my shoulders if I go heavy, but it definately percentage wise affects my chest more than anything else, but leaves my upper chest a little flat (not totally, but not enough development).
Well then that tells me you are a delt-bencher so i'm not suprised you don't "feel" flat benches more. But that doesn't mean that your upper chest will lag, or that it exists.


Posted by: Mudge

I like flat benches, but I don't feel them in the top. I could be a delt bencher somewhat though, I don't doubt that, because I have to do it a certain way or it will cause problems.

There is more too it than height, but I'm 6'2", so benches were not always my friendliest of friends, I could always curl a fair amount though but never a big bencher.

Diet advice? I could lose some pounds!


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by Mudge
I like flat benches, but I don't feel them in the top.

That doesn't matter. If the chest is contracting the entire chest is contracting - upper, lower, outer, inner. ALL.

Since you're using yourself as an example, i'll use myself: I feel more stress in my upper chest more on weight dips than i do inclines. Funny that, eh?


Posted by: Neil

[quote]Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

Here's an example. Tell me, would you take diet advice off someone who looks like this?



/QUOTE]

Lookin good Chicken



Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

It was actually a serious question.

Would you take advice off him?


Posted by: Mudge

I think it depends, I listen to just about anybody when they have something to say though.

If nothing else however, I don't want to ruin this guys thread with our yammering.


Posted by: Neil

If you are talking about diet advice related to bodybuilding and strength training then no, I wouldn't take advice from him. If giving diet advice was his occupation and he had a high reputation and clients that got results then I probably would take his advice. If he is just some guy who has read a few books and likes to tell people bigger and stronger than him how to eat then I wouldn't take what he has to say very seriously.


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by Neil
If you are talking about diet advice related to bodybuilding and strength training then no, I wouldn't take advice from him. If giving diet advice was his occupation and he had a high reputation and clients that got results then I probably would take his advice. If he is just some guy who has read a few books and likes to tell people bigger and stronger than him how to eat then I wouldn't take what he has to say very seriously.

I'm glad you said that. The thing is, you don't know who he is from the photo so you don't know what he knows or what he's about. Just as Mudge asked about how much i've grown lately to back up my statements. At the end of the day, who you hear info from is irrelevant if the info is true.

By the way, the photo was just a wee little experiemnt on my part. The person in that photo is actually Lyle McDonald - potentially the world's leading nutritionist.


Posted by: Mudge

You claim to have 16x" arms, which obviously the guy pictured doesn't, so that makes sense.

Anywho, what you say still goes against the grain, and against what I've noticed with my own body, so I still would like to see proof of its superiority, over multi-angular for the chest, or biceps, etc.


Posted by: Scotty the Body

I guess different things work for different people, like TCD, I've gotten more benifit from doing flat and decline than I've ever gotten from inclines.
I use a 3 week split for chest that includes inclines but I've always felt that declines or dips are what has helped my bench and pec growth the most.


Posted by: Mudge

Definately, but I think you two are rare individuals to get so much benefit from flat benches.


Posted by: Josh

Quote:
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Well then that tells me you are a delt-bencher....
Excuse me, but what is a "delt-bencher"?

- Josh


Posted by: Mudge

Someone whose delts come more into play than the chest. Everyones body makeup is different, some people claim that benches do little for thier chest, those would be delt-benchers.


Posted by: Josh

So if I am a delt-bencher then doing benches will not effectively help my chest. So what chest exercises do you suggest to effectively work on the chest of a delt-bencher?

- Josh


Posted by: Mudge

Dumbell presses, if benches aren't doing it for you give those a shot. I like dumbell movements alot these days, but I switch back and forth.


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by Josh
So if I am a delt-bencher then doing benches will not effectively help my chest. So what chest exercises do you suggest to effectively work on the chest of a delt-bencher?

- Josh
So you'd want to take delts out of the equation as much as possible and try your best to put the brunt of the weight onto the pecs - ie stop doing inclines and focus more on slightly declined angles and/or dips.


Posted by: The_Chicken_Daddy

Quote:
Originally posted by Mudge
Anywho, what you say still goes against the grain, and against what I've noticed with my own body, so I still would like to see proof of its superiority, over multi-angular for the chest, or biceps, etc.
Well i don't have any photos right now, but i am in the beginning stages of cutting so hopefully within about 3 months i'll be more pleased with the way i look and more happy to take some photos, nevermind post them! My bodyfat is still a tad higher than i appreciate.

By the way, just for clarity, I'm not saying that inclines don't work the chest. They ARE a chest exercise, however, the amount of shoulders they recruit make it an inferior exercise for the chest in reguards to flat or dips. I also think that those people who start their session with inclines are short-changing themselves by doing such a mediocre exercise at their freshest and basically pre-exhausting their delts before stimulating their chest sufficiently.If people want to do the exercise for preference or whatever then i won't argue, but i would never recommend starting off with them. And i'd also tell them that if they're doing them for upper chest development then they can forget it.

One good thing about inclines though, is that they build your shoulders like a mofo.


Posted by: Mudge

A really steep incline press I would believe a heavy shoulder workout from, but on a 45º I do just fine with my presses.


Posted by: Yanks20

I actually think a 45 degree incline press is a little much and will bring the shoulders into play. most recommend a 30-35 degree angle for best results, but then again whatever works best for you!


Posted by: Mudge

I'm using a multi-position bench, my guess to angle may be poor. I can try to figure it out and work it into a post sometime. It starts out as an incline, and I'm using no more than the 2nd notch of probably a dozen or so, the last one finally making it completely upright.

Hmm, would have been nice if they put the angle stamped into it somewhere, oh well.


Posted by: Yanks20

so you are raising it only 2 notches from a completely flat position? if so you are probably in the 30-35 degree angle. if you are using BB the bench is anywhere from 30-40 degree incline, could be a good gage to see how you place the angle if your doing DB presses.

i totally agree about the angle stamp, hate having to guess when using a mult-position bench.


Posted by: dg806

I guess I am a so called "delt bencher" too! I always feel flat benches more in delts than chest! But just Monday, my chest workout included all incline work on cybex and hammer strength. (No barbell work) and my chest is very sore today! And in the upper portion of my chest. Does this come from the better stretch?


Posted by: Mudge

Quote:
Originally posted by Yanks20
so you are raising it only 2 notches from a completely flat position? if so you are probably in the 30-35 degree angle.
No no, its an incline bench, and I raise it 2-3 notches depending how I feel, sometimes less. The flat benches that I have seen that will raise/lower, 2 nothces would probably take it to 15/20º (like my home bench).

Now that I think about it I'm guessing 30-40º is what I'm using, but I'll have a look when I next hit the gym (yesterday was off).


Posted by: Yanks20

ok, the incline bench that is in its lowest position is probably right around 30 degrees. now that i know what you are using you are probably right in the 35-40 degree range. when going extremely heavy on inclines i leave the bench in its lowest possible setting.


Posted by: Mudge

Right now my chest routine is mainly, incline dumbell presses and dips.


Posted by: Yanks20

haven't been as focused lately, seems like i'm just moving the weights around - hope to get out of this valley soon!

for me i start with flat bench, inclines, DB flies and weighted dips(thanks to TCD for that one and love em).


Posted by: Mudge

Post embarrasing pix of yourself (like I did), and not Don Mattingly, then you will be motivated


Posted by: Yanks20

only thing i got going on a little bit better is my tan right about now. not ready for any embarassing pics at this point in time. love the farmers tan!!


Posted by: Mudge

I have computer monitor tan


Posted by: Yanks20

love it! actually just started to train with a newbie and think it will probably help me put things back into overdrive. must say though going to all these Yankee games lately hasn't helped (not working out, drinking the whole 9 yards)! just cannot pass up the tickets when they are thrown out attcha.

so, if i stand in front of the computer long enough i can achieve a nice base color that you are showing in your avitar? just kidding!

i have been wrestling with the idea of gearing my workouts more toward PL in the last few months and feel that i'm gonna switch things up in the next few weeks. that alone should motivate me!


Posted by: sawheet

There is a book called muscle meets the magnet. It takes professional bodybuilders and has them perform variuos excercises and imediatally performs a cat scan. Now this book will show you what fibers are MOST activated during different exercises. It will also show the nuetrilizing and stabilizing muscles activated. This book will help you with the many myths of training. While not an exact science, you must figure in genetics and personal differences in people. One person may feel an exercise differently that another. So basicially one cannot say inclines do not isolate that portion of the chest because another mat feel it there more and what this book proves is that one person may have more muscle recruitment to that area than another. So argue all you want the only thing that will work for you is trying to recruit more muscle fibers to a specific area by taking it to muscle failure by the best means possible.


Posted by: Mudge

I remember that book, I wish I picked it up. Is it still around?


Posted by: sawheet

You know I havnt thaught about it untill today I am sure it is, it was lifted from my office a few years ago. I would like to read it again.


Posted by: Mudge

As you said though, everyone has different bone structure, insertion points etc, so not all things affect us the same indeed. I think though most of the time things are generically applicable, for the most part.


Posted by: Mudge

Quote:
Originally posted by Yanks20 so, if i stand in front of the computer long enough i can achieve a nice base color that you are showing in your avitar? just kidding
Yes sir, this pasty white look can be achieved right in your very own, home or office!



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