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R-E-A-L-L-Y W-I-D-E squat stance... really?


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Posted by: Big G

I just had 30mins for free with a personal trainer.

90% of the time he was just trying to sell me on the idea of using him as a trainer (Which really pissed me off. $100/hr. Fuck that! I have to work all damn day for that!) but he did give me one small bit of free advice. Namely, to use a stance as wide as the squat rack for my squats & sumo deadlifts.

He said he'd just been invited to join a local Westside club becuase he was now squatting 575lb. he said none of the other trainers could do that blah blah blah.

He said squats weren't really a quad exercise. And, if I want big quads, I should be doing leg extensions.

His stance was so wide that I couldn't even do a box squat without pain in my groin (presumably just a flexibility issue). each foot was literally against oposite sides of the squat rack though. crazy wide.

Any thoughts?


Posted by: KelJu

He is correct. I read an article at T-Nation about a year ago about squatting big. If you stretch your groin and hips properly, it doesn't hurt. Plus, you need to start light and develop the form. Once you do, your glutes start to take over most of the work rather than your quads. According to the 1-rep max chart, I was close to squatting 450 at my strongest, and I credit much of that to switching to wide stance.

It is also easier on my knees than unconventional back squats.

I don't go the whole width of the power rack, that sounds insane, but my feet are about 3 inches from each side of the power rack.

Here is a good example of wide stance squat.

YouTube Video



Posted by: DOMS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big G View Post
And, if I want big quads, I should be doing leg extensions.
Most of what he said sounds reasonable, but this bit is garbage.


Posted by: KelJu

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
Most of what he said sounds reasonable, but this bit is garbage.
I missed that part. Yeah, leg extensions are garbage.


Posted by: Big G

KelJu - Thanks. Always nice to have a second opinion (even though that trainer guy kept telling me "Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and they all stink!"). I really do appreciate your advice. I'll work on that stance. Also, the squats racks at my gym are not as wide as power-racks, so we're probably talking about the same kind-of width.

DOMS - What would you recommend for quad development?


Posted by: DOMS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big G View Post
DOMS - What would you recommend for quad development?
Pretty much any variant of Squats, particularly Back and Front. Lunges are good (but I can't stand them). Step-ups are also good. If you have the equipment, Sleds are great, too.


Posted by: Big G

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
Pretty much any variant of Squats, particularly Back and Front. Lunges are good (but I can't stand them). Step-ups are also good. If you have the equipment, Sleds are great, too.
So the wider-stance back squats that the trainer recommended today ARE for quads? Why would he say otherwise? Surely he knows what he's doing if he's squatting 575lb with WestSide (like he said). He said, adamantly, it was mostly glutes & hamstrings.


Posted by: Big G

KelJu

Help me understand this a bit more, if you'll be so kind...

After watching your video it shows some thumbnails of other similar videos. One of them is a guy squatting 1003lb. He definitely doesn't have such wide stance. There's also another guy doing 475 for 20 reps. He doesn't have a wide stance either.

The trainer I spoke with today said not having a wide stance puts undue stress on your back and you will end up injured. How come the 2 guys I mentioned above are using a far narrower stance?

Also, if this is "the way" to do these lifts, why do most books recommend 6" wider than shoulder width? And, how come everyone I've seen at my gym isn't doing them like that?

Any thoughts?

All advice very much appreciated.


Posted by: P-funk

just because he squats wide doesn't mean everyone should. Also, he probably lifts "equipped." UNless you are wearing squat briefs, squatting that wide is going to trash the shit out of your hips. SOunds like a guy that is strong but stupid.


Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big G View Post
KelJu

Help me understand this a bit more, if you'll be so kind...

After watching your video it shows some thumbnails of other similar videos. One of them is a guy squatting 1003lb. He definitely doesn't have such wide stance. There's also another guy doing 475 for 20 reps. He doesn't have a wide stance either.
The trainer I spoke with today said not having a wide stance puts undue stress on your back and you will end up injured. How come the 2 guys I mentioned above are using a far narrower stance?

Also, if this is "the way" to do these lifts, why do most books recommend 6" wider than shoulder width? And, how come everyone I've seen at my gym isn't doing them like that?

Any thoughts? Simple. Cuz its a tried and true method of training legs/whole body.
All advice very much appreciated.
The trainer you spoke to today is a spawn from the very first trainers there ever were...which were the big guys in the gym.

Seriously. Before training actually became something to be studied, the very first trainers that existed were just the biggest guys in the gym. "If it worked for me, it will for you!"

I wouldnt be surprised if this guy doesnt keep up with recent exercise studies, much less is even currently certified.


Posted by: KelJu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big G View Post
KelJu

Help me understand this a bit more, if you'll be so kind...

After watching your video it shows some thumbnails of other similar videos. One of them is a guy squatting 1003lb. He definitely doesn't have such wide stance. There's also another guy doing 475 for 20 reps. He doesn't have a wide stance either.

The trainer I spoke with today said not having a wide stance puts undue stress on your back and you will end up injured. How come the 2 guys I mentioned above are using a far narrower stance?

Also, if this is "the way" to do these lifts, why do most books recommend 6" wider than shoulder width? And, how come everyone I've seen at my gym isn't doing them like that?

Any thoughts?

All advice very much appreciated.


Slow down. I didn't say squatting wide was the perfect way to squat. I meant to say that:

Squatting wider takes less focus off of the quads, and more focus on the glutes.
Squatting wider helped me squat more than conventional squat, but it might not be for everybody. Tom Platz squatted feet shoulder width apart and could destroy your trainer friend and 99% of the rest of the population.
Conventional squats probably do put more strain on your back than wide stance, but I have no science or data to back this up.
Your trainer friend is an idiot. He makes it sound like his way is the only way, He is wrong. Each person must figure out what the best way is based on their body characteristics.

I say squat wide for a few months and see how you like it. P-funk says it will destroy your hips, but a year's worth of wide squats has not bothered my hips in the least. Quite the contrary, I have had less knee problems wide stance squatting than conventional squatting.


Posted by: min0 lee

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
Most of what he said sounds reasonable, but this bit is garbage.
Agreed.


Posted by: Big G

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
just because he squats wide doesn't mean everyone should. Also, he probably lifts "equipped." UNless you are wearing squat briefs, squatting that wide is going to trash the shit out of your hips. SOunds like a guy that is strong but stupid.
In fairness, I don't think he's stupid. He's certified. He works for the gym, and he's a professional lacrosse (sp?) player. Plus, he's eloquent and seemingly very knowledgeable about strength training. Seemingly.

I figured if he's rattling on about being invited to join some invite-only WestSide gym (because he's squatting and deadlifting over 500lb) then he might be able to teach a bumbling 1yr-old newbie like me a thing or two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKIRA View Post
The trainer you spoke to today is a spawn from the very first trainers there ever were...which were the big guys in the gym.

Seriously. Before training actually became something to be studied, the very first trainers that existed were just the biggest guys in the gym. "If it worked for me, it will for you!"

I wouldnt be surprised if this guy doesnt keep up with recent exercise studies, much less is even currently certified.
Funny, because he was saying he's all up on the modern ways of doing things, and all the rest of the trainers in the gym were old-fashioned.

He is a big guy. Well... I dunno. Not as big as many of the people that go to the gym to workout, but he's the biggest trainer that works there. Not much over 200lb though. That'd be my guess anyway. He's not giant, by any means.

He's definitely certified. Whether he keeps up on reading I don't know. I told him I'd been reading a lot and that's when he started telling me about assholes, opinions and stink!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KelJu View Post
Slow down. I didn't say squatting wide was the perfect way to squat. I meant to say that:

Squatting wider takes less focus off of the quads, and more focus on the glutes.
Squatting wider helped me squat more than conventional squat, but it might not be for everybody. Tom Platz squatted feet shoulder width apart and could destroy your trainer friend and 99% of the rest of the population.
Conventional squats probably do put more strain on your back than wide stance, but I have no science or data to back this up.
Your trainer friend is an idiot. He makes it sound like his way is the only way, He is wrong. Each person must figure out what the best way is based on their body characteristics.

I say squat wide for a few months and see how you like it. P-funk says it will destroy your hips, but a year's worth of wide squats has not bothered my hips in the least. Quite the contrary, I have had less knee problems wide stance squatting than conventional squatting.
Weight lifting is sooooo interesting. Who'd've thought that picking a weight up and putting it down could open a pandoras box of opinions, ideas, studies, research, etc etc etc.

I just recently started squatting 6" wider than shoulder width (compared to a far-too-narrow stance with heels on 10lb plates - which always fucked my lower back) and it felt to me like I completely eliminated any lower back involvement. I loved it. Admittedly an even wider stance does seem to further reduce any slight forward lean but, clearly, that's not the be-all and end-all of squats.

My only concern is fucking my back up. My boss has herniated disks from running and he's always telling me I donlt want them. My Mum & Dad both spent months of their lives on their backs due to slipped disks. I hear leaning forward can fuck L4 & L5 in the lower lumbar area. the new trainer guy (from today) started saying my back could be too arched and that would fuck L6 and L7 up (or something).

It's all such a worry.

I really like picking up heavy shit, but I really really really don't want an injury. I wish someone could say, one way or the other, do that and don't do that. Weightlifting is wierd like that. Nothing definitive. And so many different ideas on how to stay safe. It kind-of sucks.


Posted by: AKIRA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big G View Post
In fairness, I don't think he's stupid. He's certified. He works for the gym, and he's a professional lacrosse (sp?) player. Plus, he's eloquent and seemingly very knowledgeable about strength training. Seemingly.

I figured if he's rattling on about being invited to join some invite-only WestSide gym (because he's squatting and deadlifting over 500lb) then he might be able to teach a bumbling 1yr-old newbie like me a thing or two.



Funny, because he was saying he's all up on the modern ways of doing things, and all the rest of the trainers in the gym were old-fashioned.

He is a big guy. Well... I dunno. Not as big as many of the people that go to the gym to workout, but he's the biggest trainer that works there. Not much over 200lb though. That'd be my guess anyway. He's not giant, by any means.

He's definitely certified. Whether he keeps up on reading I don't know. I told him I'd been reading a lot and that's when he started telling me about assholes, opinions and stink!




If he speaks in absolutes, then hes not very open to knowledge or the quest for it. Nothing wrong with making a statement, but the explanations for that statement CAN be wrong.

If youre sure hes a smart fellow and that hes certified, then perhaps he wasnt speaking in absolutes. Otherwise, he sounds a bit biased from his own progress.


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
I really like picking up heavy shit, but I really really really don't want an injury. I wish someone could say, one way or the other, do that and don't do that. Weightlifting is wierd like that. Nothing definitive. And so many different ideas on how to stay safe. It kind-of sucks.
a knowledgeable coach should be able to analyze the way you move and determine the best type of stance for your body. the problem with the guy you worked with today is that he has a bias towards one way to squat and do things (the powerlifter way). It is hard for people to set aside their own biases and work with the individual at hand. Often times, coaches will get wrapped up in this dogmatic approach to training and forget that people are different and require different things.


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
I say squat wide for a few months and see how you like it. P-funk says it will destroy your hips, but a year's worth of wide squats has not bothered my hips in the least. Quite the contrary, I have had less knee problems wide stance squatting than conventional squatting.

depends on what you are calling wide. i may have a different idea of what is wide than you do. you are probably having less knee problems because there is less knee flexion/extension with a wider squat than with a close stance squat. again, it is individual variation. your body may lend itself better to that, i don't know what is wide for you, your levers may be better suited for that type of squat (torso length, femur length, etc).

it all depends on the person.


Posted by: Stewart20

The trainer was obviously in love with the fact that he could squat 575, and wanted to share with the world how he did that. In my non scientific opinion, the wider you put your stance (comfortably of course), the more weight you can lift, and yes you shift the focus to more of the posterior muscles, as well as your inner thighs, but don't think your quads aren't getting a workout either, cause the whole leg is being used.

I also have found that if you use a closer stance and squat deeper, there is less strain on the back, of course, it will take a longer time to squat the same weight you used with a wider stance.

My advice is that if you are not a powerlifter, and you want to do squats, don't worry about wide or narrow stance, just make sure it is a comfortable stance for your body and if you are still concerned with your quad development (which, IMO, should be just fine, unless you are a bodybuilder), do a supplemental exercise like the leg press, or a plate loaded squat machine and use a close stance on that exercise to target your quads more.


Posted by: fufu

sounds like an idiot to me.


Posted by: Witchblade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big G View Post
I really like picking up heavy shit, but I really really really don't want an injury. I wish someone could say, one way or the other, do that and don't do that. Weightlifting is wierd like that. Nothing definitive. And so many different ideas on how to stay safe. It kind-of sucks.



Posted by: KelJu

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
depends on what you are calling wide. i may have a different idea of what is wide than you do. you are probably having less knee problems because there is less knee flexion/extension with a wider squat than with a close stance squat. again, it is individual variation. your body may lend itself better to that, i don't know what is wide for you, your levers may be better suited for that type of squat (torso length, femur length, etc).

it all depends on the person.
I agree a 100%. I wasn't implying that you were wrong, but just giving both sides of the argument regarding the safety of wide squatting.


Posted by: Big G

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart20 View Post
The trainer was obviously in love with the fact that he could squat 575, and wanted to share with the world how he did that. In my non scientific opinion, the wider you put your stance (comfortably of course), the more weight you can lift, and yes you shift the focus to more of the posterior muscles, as well as your inner thighs, but don't think your quads aren't getting a workout either, cause the whole leg is being used.

I also have found that if you use a closer stance and squat deeper, there is less strain on the back, of course, it will take a longer time to squat the same weight you used with a wider stance.

My advice is that if you are not a powerlifter, and you want to do squats, don't worry about wide or narrow stance, just make sure it is a comfortable stance for your body and if you are still concerned with your quad development (which, IMO, should be just fine, unless you are a bodybuilder), do a supplemental exercise like the leg press, or a plate loaded squat machine and use a close stance on that exercise to target your quads more.
Kewl. Makes sense to me. I'm going to carry on squatting with a 6"-wider-than-shoulder-width stance for now (because it's comfortable) and work on my flexibility a little bit, so I'm able to do a wider stance (It hurt the inside of my thighs being so wide). Maybe I'll do wider stance squats for a few months after I'm all stretched out - see how it goes.

THANKS!!


Posted by: vortrit

Quote:
Originally Posted by KelJu View Post
I missed that part. Yeah, leg extensions are garbage.
He said the statement was garbage, not that leg extensions were. It really depends who you ask on this board because about 50% will say they are garbage and 50% will say they are great according to a thread I made about them awhile back.

However, you don't HAVE to do them to get big quads. That statement is garbage.


Posted by: StanUk

leg extensions are total garbage when compared to squats, and that is a fact.


Posted by: AKIRA

^I liked your old avatar better.


Posted by: juggernaut

I know that when I do shoulder width squats, my knees ache like shit. However the wider the stance, especially with toes pointed out, the less pain there is. I'm tall 6'2, and found by having arthritic knees and a patellar problem that narrow squats are out for me.


Posted by: KelJu

Quote:
Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
I know that when I do shoulder width squats, my knees ache like shit. However the wider the stance, especially with toes pointed out, the less pain there is. I'm tall 6'2, and found by having arthritic knees and a patellar problem that narrow squats are out for me.
Same here. I'm 6"2 with fucked up knees and wide stance has been a godsend for me. I have less knee trouble since switching, but I warn you. If you do not properly stretch your groin properly, you will regret it.


Posted by: Duncans Donuts

leg extensions are certainly not garbage


Posted by: juggernaut

yeah, I agree with that. ^^^^ They definitely have their place.


Posted by: KelJu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts View Post
leg extensions are certainly not garbage
They are for me.


Posted by: Big G

I'm reviving this old thread because it's been almost two months since I started squatting wider and I'm still not comfortably able to squat much wider than shoulderwidth+6". It's bugging me.

Recent reading (Stretching Scientifically?) has suggested that I may not be able to go much wider because of weak adductors. If that's the case wouldn't these be getting stronger from all the wide-ish squats I've been doing? And, again if that's the case, then wouldn't I feel progressively more comfortable squatting wider and wider as time went by? I just can't get parallel if I widen my feet. Plus I have no strength to push myself up if I go extra wide. Even my own body weight (when practicing/stretching at home with no weight) hurts if I drop down to parallel when I'm that wide. It's wierd. I don't know what to do about it.

I read Super Squats and started doing 20rep sets (weekly) with approx 75% of my 1RM (220lb-ish) and adding 5lb every week. It's been crazy; Shaking, sweating and sucking mad air. Real mind-over-matter stuff. My brain's been just begging me to "put the bar down!" but I've knocked all 20 out anyway. My glutes are definitely handling much of the weight these days. My ass gets fried any more.

I've incorporated some dynamic hamstring stretching before squatting, plus I'll be on the eliptical machine going forwards, backwards and kind-of sideways for 5mins prior (to aide warmup).

What more can I do? Anyone?

I'll try to figure out how to load a video of me squatting on uTube. That way you could see how I look. I'm concerned that most of the guys in my gym are bumbling idiots themselves. I could do without being lead by the blind!

At the end of the day I just don't want to get hurt. I'd like to be able to carry on doing this sort of thing for many years to come. It's fun getting bigger and stronger.

I want more. Faster.

I like it.


Posted by: P-funk

a) post a video

b) if you don't want to get hurt then stop trying to force yourself into a position or range of motion that it just doesn't want to go into to (extra wide squats).

What is your infatuation with trying to squat extra wide anyway?

When I watch people squat extra wide, I am always scared when I see how their knees track.


Posted by: goob

When I did Std. deadlifts (I know your talking squats, but... ) they fucked up old sports injuries I had. Then I tried sumo (wide) style, and they took some of the load off my back. But in the process, I felt like they put a shit load of strain on the uplift on my hips.

I think this is the same for squats. The way I see it, do back squats with parallel stance, because that way you get the best upthrust. Wide stance and you'll feel it big time on your hips( in the hole) .

Stick to standard, unless you have an injury that says otherwise. Fuck your trainer.



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