My log of 'RESULTS' from At Large Nutrition [Forum Archive]

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My log of 'RESULTS' from At Large Nutrition

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Posted by: lucifuge

Hello folks,
I've been picked to test and log a product by board sponsor, At Large Nutrition. I chose the product RESULTS. (cuz well, we all want results right?)
At Large Nutrition - Results - High Performance Creatine Monohydrate su
But, lame attempts at snappy banter aside, I started taking this product tonight. So far, all I can say is that it was quite tasty.

My other supplements are as follows:
Precision Engineered Whey
Meijer Men's Formula Multi Vitamin
CMI Red Cell pro (nitric oxide & aminos)
Rexall Fishoil Caps
USP Labs Supercissus RX

I weighed in at 217 lbs and 19.25% bodyfat this morning
( I use a digital bf caliper, and I perform 3 tests and average the results)

Took some cold measurements as well:
(for reference only)

upper arms: 17"
forearms: 13 1/4"
chest : @ 43 1/2" (hard to measure your own chest)
waist: 36"
quads: 25 1/2"
calves: 15 3/4"

training:
(taken directly from my journal)
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/on...7-s-d-m-f.html

4/29/08

Deads:
155 x 5
225 x 8
275 x 8
295 x 8

Squats:
225 x 8
245 x 8
265 x 6

SLDL:
95 x 10
145 x 10
145 x 9

Leg Curls:
50 x 12
75 x 9
75 x 7

Actually felt pretty nauseous by the time I got to the leg curls. I may have taken the 'Results' a little too close to training time, I felt a little bloated throughout the workout.

All in all, a satisfactory session. I'll pick up calf raises later in the week.

Posted by: thewicked

you will absolutley LOVE this stuff. I've never been a creatine or creatine blended fan until I gave ALN's Results a LEGIT shot.. in two weeks as advertised I started noticing a difference. I love it so much now that I'll take it until it's no longer being made!

the nausea happens when you hit it hard and have anything in your stomach before your workouts in general. Hell even drinking gatorade makes me nauseous. I've just started taking my results in the morning with my Nitrean shakes and still feel the same in training.

what flavor did you get? Orange blast is damn tasty..but i'm in LOVE with cherry blast!

Stick with it luci..trust me...out of all of us lifters that take it...not one of us has wanted to stop using it.

Posted by: workingatit43

I will be following

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewicked

you will absolutley LOVE this stuff. I've never been a creatine or creatine blended fan until I gave ALN's Results a LEGIT shot.. in two weeks as advertised I started noticing a difference. I love it so much now that I'll take it until it's no longer being made!

the nausea happens when you hit it hard and have anything in your stomach before your workouts in general. Hell even drinking gatorade makes me nauseous. I've just started taking my results in the morning with my Nitrean shakes and still feel the same in training.

what flavor did you get? Orange blast is damn tasty..but i'm in LOVE with cherry blast!

Stick with it luci..trust me...out of all of us lifters that take it...not one of us has wanted to stop using it.

I hear ya about the nausea, normally doesn't hit me too bad.
I got the Cherry Blast, and it is pretty damned tasty.

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by workingatit43

I will be following

welcome bro

Posted by: Irons77

I'm in

Posted by: chris mason

Awesome!

As Wicked said, it is more important to use it daily than the actual timing of use. You can take it with a meal if you prefer.

Oh, and it takes about 10 days to fully kick-in for most. At that point you should be hitting PRs left and right!

Chris

Posted by: lucifuge

4/30/08
Day 2Nothing new to report, I took my serving of RESULTS about an hour and a half before training and did not have any nausea, so I think that's gonna be my target now.
Training went well, nothing spectacular, but a good session:

Chest & Tri's:
Low Incline Bench:
135 x 10
225 x 10
245 x 8, 8, 5
Low Incline DB Press:
60's x 10, 10, 9
Skull Crushers:
85 x 10, 9, 6 1/2 (heh, failure)
Press Downs:
80 x 8, 8, 7
Crunches:25, 15

5/1/08
Day 3
No weights tonight! I'll be taking my RESULTS as directed.
I feel good, just a little more run down than usual. I haven't gotten much sleep so far this week and as a result I'm really looking forward to not training tonight! LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Awesome!

As Wicked said, it is more important to use it daily than the actual timing of use. You can take it with a meal if you prefer.

Oh, and it takes about 10 days to fully kick-in for most. At that point you should be hitting PRs left and right!

Chris

I'm looking forward to the 'kick in' (for lack of a better term).
Stronger is always good... hopefully some size will come along with it !

Posted by: workingatit43

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifuge

4/30/08
Day 2Nothing new to report, I took my serving of RESULTS about an hour and a half before training and did not have any nausea, so I think that's gonna be my target now.
Training went well, nothing spectacular, but a good session:

Chest & Tri's:
Low Incline Bench:
135 x 10
225 x 10
245 x 8, 8, 5
Low Incline DB Press:
60's x 10, 10, 9
Skull Crushers:
85 x 10, 9, 6 1/2 (heh, failure)
Press Downs:
80 x 8, 8, 7
Crunches:25, 15

5/1/08
Day 3
No weights tonight! I'll be taking my RESULTS as directed.
I feel good, just a little more run down than usual. I haven't gotten much sleep so far this week and as a result I'm really looking forward to not training tonight! LOL

I'm looking forward to the 'kick in' (for lack of a better term).
Stronger is always good... hopefully some size will come along with it !

Nice workout bro

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by workingatit43

Nice workout bro

thank you kind sir!

Posted by: tomuchgear

sounds like things are going well.

Posted by: lucifuge

Day 4
5/2/08
Howdy folks.
Checking in , nothing to report yet.
The only thing 'different' is that muscle soreness seems to be lasting an inordinate amount of time. My legs and chest are still sore from this weeks previous workouts. Nothing too terrible, just noticeable. I only mention it because I normally only feel sore for a day, if I get sore at all anymore. Anyway, moving right along...
A nice torture session tonight.

Chins:
8, 8, 8

Wide Grip Pulldowns:
80 x 10
180 x 4, 5, 5, 4

Neutral Grip Pulldowns:
80 x 15
(drop)
65 x 15
(drop)
50 x 15

Stiff Arm Pulldowns:
50 x 12
55 x 10
60 x 8

EZ Bar Curls:
85 x 9
95 x 6 (neg)
95 x 5 (neg)

Single Arm Preachers:
40's x 5, 5, 5
(drop)
30's x 5
(drop)
20's x 7
(drop)
15's x 8
-ouch-

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by workingatit43

Nice workout bro

Thanks man

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomuchgear

sounds like things are going well.

So far so good!

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifuge

Day 4
5/2/08
Howdy folks.
Checking in , nothing to report yet.
The only thing 'different' is that muscle soreness seems to be lasting an inordinate amount of time. My legs and chest are still sore from this weeks previous workouts. Nothing too terrible, just noticeable. I only mention it because I normally only feel sore for a day, if I get sore at all anymore. Anyway, moving right along...
A nice torture session tonight.

Chins:
8, 8, 8

Wide Grip Pulldowns:
80 x 10
180 x 4, 5, 5, 4

Neutral Grip Pulldowns:
80 x 15
(drop)
65 x 15
(drop)
50 x 15

Stiff Arm Pulldowns:
50 x 12
55 x 10
60 x 8

EZ Bar Curls:
85 x 9
95 x 6 (neg)
95 x 5 (neg)

Single Arm Preachers:
40's x 5, 5, 5
(drop)
30's x 5
(drop)
20's x 7
(drop)
15's x 8
-ouch-

My guess is that the soreness is from the extra push the product gives you in the gym. As I mentioned, some of the ingredients take a bit longer to kick-in. When that occurs you should also notice improved recovery.

Posted by: thewicked

yeah chris is right..it takes about two weeks or a little longer to get it kicked in but once it gets kicked it it's AWESOME! Might check into ETS from ALN too.. I take both..and the soreness for me only lasts into the next day and that's IF I have a BRUTAL workout the day before. I don't feel anything from my typical workouts now soreness wise.. even when i ramp the weights up. Keep this log up! You're kickin some ass in here luci!

Posted by: lucifuge

Day 5
5/4/08

Shoulders

Standing Military Press:
95 x 12
135 x 10
155 x 8, 8, 6

Seated Dumbell Military:
60's x 10, 9, 6

Rear Laterals:
30's x 8, 9, 8

Side Laterals:
30's x 8, 8, 8

Smith Machine Shrugs:
225 x 8, 8, 8

Good Times!
Well, that it for my routine. This should make a pretty good baseline for the rest of the log. I'm not posting anymore workouts in this thread, unless progress (PR) is made of course.
I'll still be posting in my journal,
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/on...7-s-d-m-f.html
if anyone's interested.

So far, I am really enjoying the product.
I still can't believe it tastes as good as it does.
You almost forget it's a supplement.

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewicked

yeah chris is right..it takes about two weeks or a little longer to get it kicked in but once it gets kicked it it's AWESOME! Might check into ETS from ALN too.. I take both..and the soreness for me only lasts into the next day and that's IF I have a BRUTAL workout the day before. I don't feel anything from my typical workouts now soreness wise.. even when i ramp the weights up. Keep this log up! You're kickin some ass in here luci!

yeah, the soreness faded. Like I said, it wasn't anything terrible, just enough that you know it's there. It's fine by me, I'm one of those sick individuals that likes the feeling

I'm glad someone likes the log, I'll continue to post workouts in here if ya want, just let me know.
But, I gotta go, my wife wants to watch some movie....

Posted by: workingatit43

Nice workout and I like sick and twisted people

Posted by: lucifuge

Day 6
rest day, heh,almost forgot to take the 'Results"

Day 7

5/5/08
legs
Deads:
225 x 5
275 x 5
295 x 5
315 x 5
320 x 5 PR

Squats:
225 x 8
265 x 7
265 x 7
SLDL:
135 x 10
185 x 8
205 x 7
thanks to some friendly advice by thewicked, I'm pushing a little harder on hams now...
Leg Curls:
90 x 8
135 x 2 (hmmm, got a little too ambitious here)
115 x 4
Smith Calf Raises:
225 x 12
245 x 21
265 x 8
All I can say is, damn, great session.

S.D.M.F.

Posted by: lucifuge

Day 7
5/6/08
This may be a bit premature, but I'm gonna go on record as saying that "Results" kicks ass.
My numbers went up again last night, significantly on the inclines.
Low Incline Press:
225 x 5
235 x 5
245 x 5
255 x 5 PR

265 x 4 PR

yeah, that's 2 back to back pr's

Low Incline DB Press:

60's x 10, 10, 10
increase in reps

Skull Crushers:

85 x 10
95 x 8
95 x 7
increase in weight

Rope Pressdowns:
60 x 12
80 x 12, 10

Overall, a VERY good session.
The best part was that the tank stayed full throughout the whole workout.
Now, I get up at about 7 am everyday, play with my daughter all day while my wife gets some sleep (she works midnights) then I go to work from 3-11 pm. After I get home from work my babysitter stays for an extra hour so I can train. What's the point of this little story? Simple, normally by the time I finish my 3rd exercise I'm about whipped and ready for bed. However, that was not the case over the last two training sessions.

Day 8
5/7/08
no weights tonight. WooHoo!

Posted by: katt

Nice!! I'm looking forward to starting my thread on the freebie I received!!

Looks like the Results is workin' for ya!

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by katt

Nice!! I'm looking forward to starting my thread on the freebie I received!!

Looks like the Results is workin' for ya!

I gotta admit, I'm diggin this stuff.
When you starting your log?

Posted by: katt

I have a couple things going on in the next couple days, so my first day will be Monday.. I'm taking Nitor At Large Nutrition - Nitor - The Ultimate Fat Burner because I'm cutting..

I'm excited to try it!!

Posted by: workingatit43

This is a very good and detailed log bro

Posted by: the other half

great "pr's". you werent just holdin out on us, were you?

i should try some new supps when we get back from our vacation in june. is there one that will give me big calves like yours?

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by katt

I have a couple things going on in the next couple days, so my first day will be Monday.. I'm taking Nitor At Large Nutrition - Nitor - The Ultimate Fat Burner because I'm cutting..

I'm excited to try it!!

sounds cool, I'll be following...

Quote:

Originally Posted by workingatit43

This is a very good and detailed log bro

I'm trying man, never logged a supp before so I'm trying to be as detailed as possible. Thanks, glad you like it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by the other half

great "pr's". you werent just holdin out on us, were you?

i should try some new supps when we get back from our vacation in june. is there one that will give me big calves like yours?

I wish I'd been holding out!
Seriously, my biggest bench ever was 305 for 2 about 4 years ago, but it was flat bench with completely shitty form and on a smith machine, so as far as I'm concerned it never happened. These are the good old solid free weight in the power cage!
And big calves? Surely you've mistaken me for someone else!

Posted by: chris mason

Awesome stuff Lucifuge!

RESULTS is the real deal! I use it every day and have done so for about 4 months. I am the biggest and strongest I have ever been.

A lot of members here may not recognize the names, but Chuck Vogelpohl and Donnie Thompson both use and LOVE the stuff. Donnie has the highest total ever at 2850 lbs and Chuck is simply the baddest lifter on the planet. Here are a couple of videos of them:

YouTube Video

IronScene - Powerlifting Videos** Donnie Thompson 805 x 3 Raw Squat

Good enough for them, good enough for you!

Posted by: soxmuscle

Maybe you can answer this for me, Chris.

What makes RESULTS that much better than other creatines such as Cell Mass or SizeOn for isntance?

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

Maybe you can answer this for me, Chris.

What makes RESULTS that much better than other creatines such as Cell Mass or SizeOn for isntance?

The ingredients and their dosing. None of the products you mentioned contain creatine, beta alanine, and HMB. RESULTS does, plus dextrose to drive the creatine delivery. Each of the ingredients in RESULTS is included at lab proven levels which is another big difference between it and many other products. We also don't confuse the label, you can cleary see exactly what is in our product and at what dose.

Chris

Posted by: lucifuge

Day 9
5/8/08
Neutral Grip Chins:
BW x 8, 8, 6
Rack Pulls:
245 x 5
275 x 5
315 x 5
325 x 4 PR

Bent Over Rows:
155 10
165 x 10, 10 PR

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Seriously?
That's it?
Nothing else sneaking around in this stuff?
I gotta be honest with ya Chris, if I wasn't the one actually experiencing this, I doubt I'd believe a word of it.
Admittedly I've never used HMB before, but I find it tough to attribute these results (pun not intended) to just that along with sugar, creatine, and b-ala....
I'm not complaining or anything, just curious.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifuge

Day 9
5/8/08
Neutral Grip Chins:
BW x 8, 8, 6
Rack Pulls:
245 x 5
275 x 5
315 x 5
325 x 4 PR

Bent Over Rows:
155 10
165 x 10, 10 PR

Dumbell Rows:
70's x 8, 8, 8
Standing Barbell Curls:
95 x 6
100 x 5, 4
(dropped down to 45 lbs for a set of 21's)
Hammer curls:
40's x 7, 7, 7
drop set:
30's x 4,
25's x 4,
20's x 4,
15's x 4
Session went very well again.
I dunno if it's the dextrose or what, but I've started breaking out with acne like I was a sophmore in highschool. Very irritating.

Seriously?
That's it?
Nothing else sneaking around in this stuff?
I gotta be honest with ya Chris, if I wasn't the one actually experiencing this, I doubt I'd believe a word of it.
Admittedly I've never used HMB before, but I find it tough to attribute these results (pun not intended) to just that along with sugar, creatine, and b-ala....
I'm not complaining or anything, just curious.

Lol, yep. I have always made it a point to make our products as transparent as possible. Most of the other products you see come up with gimmicky names for a bunch of low dosed ingredients thrown together. Each of those ingredient has been proven in the lab to increase lean muscle and strength. When combined, they work synergistically.

Posted by: lucifuge

Day 10
5/9/08
Off Day

Day 11
5/10/08
Shoulders:
Standing Military Press:
105 x 8
145 x 6
165 x 6
175 x 5, 4 PR on reps

Seated Dumbell Press:
70's x 10, 9, 7
Rear Laterals:
30's x 10, 10, 10
Side Laterals:
30's x 10, 10, 10
Barbell Shrugs:
235 x 10, 10, 10

Posted by: chris mason

Good job on the military press!

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Good job on the military press!

Thanks!
I hope to be able to put up 200 lbs by the end of the year.... don't really know if it's possible, but that's the plan.

Day 11
off day

Day 12
5/12/08

Not alot of time tonight, so I just stuck with the big three.

Deads:
225 x 8
295 x 8
345 x 3 PR

Squats:
275 x 3, 3, 3

SLDL:
225 x 5
235 x 5
245 x 5 PR

one of the most intimidating lifts I've ever done

All in all, a good time.
I was really tempted to try for some singles on deads, but decided against it.

Posted by: katt

Wow... after looking at all your PR's, I'm seriously going to have to try this.!

Posted by: chris mason

As we say, give it 10 days and PR city!

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by katt

Wow... after looking at all your PR's, I'm seriously going to have to try this.!

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

As we say, give it 10 days and PR city!

I gotta admit, I'm impressed as hell with this stuff.
I went into this expecting it to essentially be 'cell-tech', or something like that, but this stuff's great.
I think it's safe to say you've got yourself a convert Chris.

Posted by: lucifuge

My only 'complaint' is the acne it seems to be causing.

That's just my neck... it's on my chest, shoulder's, and head as well.
I'm 34, and I've never broken out like this, not even from pro-hormone/AAS use.
I figure it's gotta be the sugar ...

Posted by: dg806

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Chris, when you mention lab proven levels, do you have info that you could share on that? I would be interested in seeing that.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

Chris, when you mention lab proven levels, do you have info that you could share on that? I would be interested in seeing that.

Well, yes and no. I have a few studies which we paid for that I cannot publish. I can give you a link to a free abstract:

Creatine and beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB...[Nutrition. 2001 Jul-Aug] - PubMed Result

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifuge

My only 'complaint' is the acne it seems to be causing.

That's just my neck... it's on my chest, shoulder's, and head as well.
I'm 34, and I've never broken out like this, not even from pro-hormone/AAS use.
I figure it's gotta be the sugar ...

Yep, that is the only thing I can think of.

Ahhh well, a small price to pay for PRs baby!

Oh, and just an FYI for anyone reading this, the vast majority of its users will not get a breakout from said use.

Posted by: nni

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

if you paid for a study why wouldnt it be published? also why use hmb instead of leucine?

Posted by: the other half

numbers keep going up, that awesome.

i take tribulus and dhea, and i break out alot like that. but like chris said, its a small price to pay for added strenght and size.

Posted by: Prince

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

also why use hmb instead of leucine?

how would that be the same?

Posted by: nni

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

how would that be the same?

hmb is a metabolite of leucine, but history of hmb usage has been sketchy and cost prohibitive. most of the positive benefits can be gained with leucine at a much lower price and a more reasonable dose.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

if you paid for a study why wouldnt it be published? also why use hmb instead of leucine?

No, you misunderstand, I paid for the study therefore I cannot provide a free link to it. In order to read the study I had to pay for it.

HMB is a leucine metabolite. A metabolite and that from which is it derived do not necessarily produce the same effects. In addition, there is the issue of quantity.

Posted by: nni

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

oh, sorry, was confused about the study part.

Posted by: chris mason

One other point, what makes RESULTS so effective is the viable dosing of Creapure(TM) creatine monohydrate, beta alanine, and HMB along with the dextrose to drive the creatine. The big 3 ingredients work together to produce ADDITIVE effects. This combination makes for a VERY effective supplement in terms of improving one's size and strength. Try it for yourself, you will be GLAD you did.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

oh, sorry, was confused about the study part.

No worries.

Chris

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by the other half

numbers keep going up, that awesome.

i take tribulus and dhea, and i break out alot like that. but like chris said, its a small price to pay for added strenght and size.

Yeah, that's been my opinion as well. It feels pretty awesome to be putting up numbers like these. The acne is little more than an inconvenience... even though a guy I work with asked if I was juicing again, lol.

Posted by: dg806

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

No, you misunderstand, I paid for the study therefore I cannot provide a free link to it. In order to read the study I had to pay for it.

Trying to understand............you paid to have access to a study done by someone else??

Posted by: nni

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

Trying to understand............you paid to have access to a study done by someone else??

some studies have to be bought to read.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

Trying to understand............you paid to have access to a study done by someone else??

Right. There was a study done on some of the ingredients I was considering for the product and it was not available online for free. I had to purchase it.

Posted by: lucifuge

Day 13
5/13/08
unfortunately, no time for training today

Day 14
5/14/08

Low Incline Bench:
135 x 8
225 x 8
245 x 8
265 x 6, 3 rep increase

Low Incline Dumbell Bench:
70's x 9, 8, 8

Skull Crushers:
95 x 8
100 x 8, 7 PR

Rope Pressdowns:
100 x 3 technically another PR, but a bit ambitious. I barely got the 3 reps
85 x 8, 8

Crunches:
20, 15, 14

Progress across the board tonight.

S.D.M.F.

Posted by: dg806

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Right. There was a study done on some of the ingredients I was considering for the product and it was not available online for free. I had to purchase it.

Makes sense. Thanks

Posted by: Built

DG, I have a copy of the full study if you'd like to see it.

"Forty healthy male subjects 19 to 23 y old were enrolled into the study. All had been involved in prior exercise but none were highly trained. Potential subjects were excluded from the study if they had evidence or history of any disease, recent joint or bone injury, or obesity. Subjects also were excluded if they had participated in resistance-exercise programs in the previous 6 mo or had consumed HMB or CR in the previous 3 mo before the study"

HMB appears to work well on untrained/detrained subjects, particularly with the addition of the known ergogens dextrose and creatine.

On well-conditioned athletes, HMB's efficacy has not been established. However, with 80g of dextrose to spike insulin, my feeling is that previous creatine "non-responders" may be finally enjoying the benefits now that sufficient dextrose is driving it in - a clear gain due to this product. Not to mention the addition of over 300 calories.

Posted by: nni

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

DG, I have a copy of the full study if you'd like to see it.

"Forty healthy male subjects 19 to 23 y old were enrolled into the study. All had been involved in prior exercise but none were highly trained. Potential subjects were excluded from the study if they had evidence or history of any disease, recent joint or bone injury, or obesity. Subjects also were excluded if they had participated in resistance-exercise programs in the previous 6 mo or had consumed HMB or CR in the previous 3 mo before the study"

there is actually a study with well trained athletes, so the effects have been established.

not so good

Posted by: Built

Truly, the nature of scientific research is to assume the null, then look for ways to reject it.

In the case of HMB supplementation in trained athletes, so far no study has been able to produce a result beyond placebo. Technically, this does not prove it has no effect in these individuals. It just doesn't demonstrate it.

[/geek]

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

there is actually a study with well trained athletes, so the effects have been established.

not so good

There are also several studies (or reviews of studies) showing it to be effective.

Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) ...[Nutr Metab (Lond). 2008] - PubMed Result

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

Posted by: thewicked

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

yeah i was wondering if anyone has ever broken out from creatine use.. .i thought it was a myth to be honest but I guess not. I've never heard or seen something like that in person or other wise!

PANOXYL THAT SHIT! WORKS EVERYTIME FOR ME!

Posted by: nni

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

other than the first study from 2001, nothing significant is there.

as for the pubmed game, i hate this game, but i will paly, for you.

Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate on aer...[Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007] - PubMed Result

Regarding body composition, there were no significant differences.

Effects of six weeks of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbu...[J Strength Cond Res. 2007] - PubMed Result

HMB and HMBCr were concluded to have no ergogenic effect on muscular strength and endurance, leg power, or anthropometry when taken orally by highly trained male athletes over 6 weeks.

hmb isnt new, i found it needs to be dosed above 10g to really see results, and at that point ill stick with leucine.

Posted by: Built

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

There are also several studies (or reviews of studies) showing it to be effective.

Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) ...[Nutr Metab (Lond). 2008] - PubMed Result

Since you are recycling your assertions, I'll respond with a recycled argument from your own board:

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Here is a bit more about HMB...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slim Schaedle

I've read all those already, but I do appreciate it.

Study 1 is from 2001 and does not mention if individuals are trained.

Study 2 is from 2000 and doesn't give any details as to materials and methods, etc. so I can't comment further.

Study 3 is from 2000 and involved "Thirty-seven, untrained, college-aged men."

Study 4 is from 2000.

Study 5 is from 2000 and only says that HMB can be safe to supplement with and has no ill side effects and that it can decrease the risk of heart attack and stroke becuase of overal reduction of cholesterol.

I just don't see anything recent that negates any more recent study that show no positive anaerobic effect of HMB.

EDIT: Here is one, but it used untrained men.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.proxy.li...ubmed_RVDocSum

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2005 Aug;15(4):413-24.Links
Supplementation with beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) and alpha-ketoisocaproic acid (KIC) reduces signs and symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage in man.van Someren KA, Edwards AJ, Howatson G.
School of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom.

This study examined the effects of beta-hydroxyl-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) and alpha-ketoisocaproic acid (KIC) supplementation on signs and symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage following a single bout of eccentrically biased resistance exercise. Six non-resistance trained male subjects performed an exercise protocol designed to induce muscle damage on two separate occasions, performed on the dominant or non-dominant arm in a counter-balanced crossover design. Subjects were assigned to an HMB/KIC (3 g HMB and 0.3 g alpha-ketoisocaproic acid, daily) or placebo treatment for 14 d prior to exercise in the counter-balanced crossover design. One repetition maximum (1RM), plasma creatine kinase activity (CK), delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), limb girth, and range of motion (ROM) were determined pre-exercise, at 1h, 24 h, 48 h, and 72 h post-exercise. DOMS and the percentage changes in 1RM, limb girth, and ROM all changed over the 72 h period (P < 0.05). HMB//IC supplementation attenuated the CK response, the percentage decrement in 1RM, and the percentage increase in limb girth (P < 0.05). In addition, DOMS was reduced at 24 h post-exercise (P < 0.05) in the HMB/KIC treatment. In conclusion, 14 d of HMB and KIC supplementation reduced signs and symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage in non-resistance trained males following a single bout of eccentrically biased resistance exercise.

I read the first study you posted - the full version is available here: Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) on exercise performance and body composition across varying levels of age, sex, and training experience: A review

Interesting overview. The authors conclude:

The first purpose of this paper was to provide an in depth and objective analysis of HMB research. While various studies analyzed in this manuscript support the efficacy of HMB as an effective ergogenic aid for athletes that decreases DOMS, markers of muscle damage, and body fat, while increasing various markers of performance, including LBM and strength in resistance trained athletes, and OBLA and VO2 peak in endurance trained athletes, a number of studies analyzed did not support the efficacy of HMB supplementation. The current authors suggest that these conflicting results may in part be attributed to the variability in humans, inadequate sample sizes, and methodological issues such as the specificity of testing conditions, cases of overtraining, elicitation of an inadequate training stimulus in experienced participants, limited dependent variables, and short duration experiments. Collectively, these results warrant further research on HMB supplementation while taking into account these various issues. Tables 1 and 2 summarize the results from the HMB literature.

Table 1
Studies Which Support the Efficacy of HMB supplementation in Varying Populations

Table 2
Studies Which do not Support the Efficacy of HMB Supplementation in Varying Populations

There is compelling evidence that HMB supplementation may be useful for clinical muscle wasting conditions including AIDS, cancer, bed-rest, and during periods of caloric deficits. HMB also appears to be safe, and may improve various markers of health, including blood pressure and LDL-cholesterol. When supplementing with HMB, current evidence suggests that 1 g of HMB should be consumed 3 times per day, for a total of 3 g of HMB daily (or 38 mg/kg of bodyweight). However, more studies are needed to determine the optimal dosage and frequency of HMB supplementation, and the overall efficacy of HMB supplementation as an ergogenic aid for athletes.

The second purpose of this paper was to provide an in depth analysis of possible mechanisms that HMB may exert its effects. Results from this review showed that HMB appears to primarily exert its effects through protective and anticatabolic mechanism. The prevailing explanation is the cholesterol synthesis hypothesis. However, recent studies have shown that HMB's anticatabolic effects are at least in part mediated by attenuation of the activation and increased gene expression of the ubiquitin-pathway. Furthermore, there is evidence that HMB may directly increase protein synthesis.

<shrug>

At least we know it's probably safe.

I'd be interested to see how well a sugar-free version of results works. 80g of sugar is too rich for my budget.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

other than the first study from 2001, nothing significant is there.

as for the pubmed game, i hate this game, but i will paly, for you.

First, I am not playing a game? I posted what I did to show an alternative to your opinion.

Next, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not preclude the fact RESULTS works exceptionally well and HMB is an integral component in the product. If I did not believe it was, I would remove it as it is relatively expensive and raises the price point of the product. If I thought it ineffective I could remove it and sell the product for significantly less and still make the same profit margin. I would be an idiot not to do that as more people will buy an effective product which costs less, no? My business acumen is relatively ok.

Finally, you do not have ANY study which looks at HMB in the context of RESULTS. In other words, when it is combined with creatine and beta alanine. It would be ignorant to assume that HMB would have the same effects independently as it does in the context I have referenced.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Since you are recycling your assertions, I'll respond with a recycled argument from your own board:

I read the first study you posted - the full version is available here: Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) on exercise performance and body composition across varying levels of age, sex, and training experience: A review

Interesting overview. The authors conclude:

The first purpose of this paper was to provide an in depth and objective analysis of HMB research. While various studies analyzed in this manuscript support the efficacy of HMB as an effective ergogenic aid for athletes that decreases DOMS, markers of muscle damage, and body fat, while increasing various markers of performance, including LBM and strength in resistance trained athletes, and OBLA and VO2 peak in endurance trained athletes, a number of studies analyzed did not support the efficacy of HMB supplementation. The current authors suggest that these conflicting results may in part be attributed to the variability in humans, inadequate sample sizes, and methodological issues such as the specificity of testing conditions, cases of overtraining, elicitation of an inadequate training stimulus in experienced participants, limited dependent variables, and short duration experiments. Collectively, these results warrant further research on HMB supplementation while taking into account these various issues. Tables 1 and 2 summarize the results from the HMB literature.

Table 1
Studies Which Support the Efficacy of HMB supplementation in Varying Populations

Table 2
Studies Which do not Support the Efficacy of HMB Supplementation in Varying Populations

There is compelling evidence that HMB supplementation may be useful for clinical muscle wasting conditions including AIDS, cancer, bed-rest, and during periods of caloric deficits. HMB also appears to be safe, and may improve various markers of health, including blood pressure and LDL-cholesterol. When supplementing with HMB, current evidence suggests that 1 g of HMB should be consumed 3 times per day, for a total of 3 g of HMB daily (or 38 mg/kg of bodyweight). However, more studies are needed to determine the optimal dosage and frequency of HMB supplementation, and the overall efficacy of HMB supplementation as an ergogenic aid for athletes.

The second purpose of this paper was to provide an in depth analysis of possible mechanisms that HMB may exert its effects. Results from this review showed that HMB appears to primarily exert its effects through protective and anticatabolic mechanism. The prevailing explanation is the cholesterol synthesis hypothesis. However, recent studies have shown that HMB's anticatabolic effects are at least in part mediated by attenuation of the activation and increased gene expression of the ubiquitin-pathway. Furthermore, there is evidence that HMB may directly increase protein synthesis.

<shrug>

At least we know it's probably safe.

I'd be interested to see how well a sugar-free version of results works. 80g of sugar is too rich for my budget.

Why would I not present the same evidence that I used to refute a similar criticism on our board?

There are studies for and against it. Again, there are NO studies which look at it in the context in which it exists in RESULTS. If you are truly of a scientific mind you should realize the relevance of that fact.

The bottom line is that Lucifuge, like the VAST majority of its users, is experiencing GREAT results using the product. As I have said over and over again, there is a reason the lifters at Westside, the strongest powerlifter on the planet Donnie Thompson, and the baddest powerlifter on the planet Chuch Vogelpohl ALL request the product... IT WORKS!!!

That's what its all about!

Posted by: nni

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

the second study is with creatine, and through the mechanisms in which creatine, beta alanine and hmb work there really is no synergy. creatine is effective as is beta alanine, as are carbs. there is synergy between carbs and creatine, but the others work on their own. point is if a study shows hmb doesnt work on its own, adding the above isnt going to change that imo. but, take out the hmb and half the carbs and results looks good to me, add in 7grams of eaa's and i would make it a staple.

Posted by: Built

Chris - I haven't said the product doesn't work - if you feel something from it and your clients like it, there may be something to it.

The facts are that the research is inconclusive at best, and that the product has a LOT of sugar for an ordinary lifter. For a 300-lb powerlifter, an assisted 6' tall male bodybuilder, or a skinny 19-year-old male on a bulk - perhaps not a problem. But for little old me,I'd need an insulin chaser!

I've asked before - others have as well: how about a sugar-free version?

Posted by: lucifuge

Day 15
no sleep = no training

-----------------------------------

Day 16
5/16/08

Pull Ups:
BW x 8, 8, 8

W.G. Pulldowns:
85 x 20
185 x 5, 5, 5, 5

Reverse Grip Pull Downs:
185 x 5
135 x 8, 8

Dumbell Pullovers:
70 x 10, 8, 8

Preacher Curls:
115 x 3 PR wow, that's heavy. almost tipped my bench LOL!85 x 8, 7 much more manageable

Alt Dumbell Curls:
30's x8, 8, 6
(drop)
25's x 6
(drop)
20's x 4

Posted by: lucifuge

Chris, nni, and built... no disrespect intended and pissing match aside, it really is a great product.
I'm already planning on ordering it again, however (in a nod to the opinions expressed by built and nni) I'll be cutting back to one scoop.

Posted by: powerrack

Yo Chris,

Just curious, why do you keep telling us about your sponsored athletes loving the product. That doesn't really mean shit. If I was sponsered by you, I'd love Results too.

If you put me on the Atlarge payroll and allotment list, I'd probably grab some Results too. You know those guys aren't gonna say any bad shit about the product, they are sponsored athletes, why would they ruin their sponsership? You think Ronnie Coleman is gonna say any f'd up shit about NO Xplode? No!

I know business is business, but to most of us that are not teenagers anymore, we don't get all gay over hearing the names of well known atheltes linked to products that are provided by their sponser.

I'm not saying it's not a decent product, I just think that bringing up the names of sponsered athletes every few threads is kinda gay, it doesn't really prove anything if they are using it or asking you for it.

BTW, I love Nitrean, one of my favorite products out there. Tastes great, mixes well. Love it!

Peace

Posted by: Travis Bell

haha we are not on any payroll. Thats a good one though

We are offered supplements. If we don't like them, we don't take them. But don't say that we lie about our product reviews. Thats bullcrap. If I say I like a supplement, I like it. I can tell you I really like Results and will continue to keep using it.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

I want to say this nicely and to not have you lose face in the process. I know you are both trying to educate and learn and I respect that.

First, whether or not HMB works by itself is something that is open to argument based upon various studies. I feel that it does, but could agree to disagree on that point. Now, IF you were correct and it did not work by itself that in no way indicates what it would do in concert with other ingredients and to make assumptions about it, especially when they fly in the face of empirical evidence, is just poor science.

Chris

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerrack

Yo Chris,

Just curious, why do you keep telling us about your sponsored athletes loving the product. That doesn't really mean shit. If I was sponsered by you, I'd love Results too.

If you put me on the Atlarge payroll and allotment list, I'd probably grab some Results too. You know those guys aren't gonna say any bad shit about the product, they are sponsored athletes, why would they ruin their sponsership? You think Ronnie Coleman is gonna say any f'd up shit about NO Xplode? No!

I know business is business, but to most of us that are not teenagers anymore, we don't get all gay over hearing the names of well known atheltes linked to products that are provided by their sponser.

I'm not saying it's not a decent product, I just think that bringing up the names of sponsered athletes every few threads is kinda gay, it doesn't really prove anything if they are using it or asking you for it.

BTW, I love Nitrean, one of my favorite products out there. Tastes great, mixes well. Love it!

Peace

I understand your position. You must understand it places me in a tough place. Let me put it this way, I work with Chuck Vogelpohl and help him out with supplements. Chuck tells me what he wants and I give it to him. Chuck is the farthest thing from a company shill that there ever has been. He would never say he liked something just to say he liked it. In fact, he doesn't say much at all. I work with him because he is one of the baddest powerlifters on the planet and I feel he has earned it.

Chuck tells me what he wants when we wants it. If I have something new I ask him to try it. If he feels it works he asks for more, if not, he doesn't. Chuck likes RESULTS and consistently asks for it. It is that simple. He is not on any kind of a payroll. He has no reason to ask for something if he does not like it.

Now, if one of the strongest men on the planet likes my product and ASKS for it, why would I not want to let people know that?

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Chris - I haven't said the product doesn't work - if you feel something from it and your clients like it, there may be something to it.

The facts are that the research is inconclusive at best, and that the product has a LOT of sugar for an ordinary lifter. For a 300-lb powerlifter, an assisted 6' tall male bodybuilder, or a skinny 19-year-old male on a bulk - perhaps not a problem. But for little old me,I'd need an insulin chaser!

I've asked before - others have as well: how about a sugar-free version?

No, the FACT is the product works extremely well as is evidenced by this log and that of nearly all of its users. Your comment about a 300 lbs powerlifter is really poor form.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifuge

Chris, nni, and built... no disrespect intended and pissing match aside, it really is a great product.
I'm already planning on ordering it again, however (in a nod to the opinions expressed by built and nni) I'll be cutting back to one scoop.

It is, and thank you!

Posted by: dg806

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

As I have said over and over again, there is a reason the lifters at Westside, the strongest powerlifter on the planet Donnie Thompson, and the baddest powerlifter on the planet Chuch Vogelpohl ALL request the product... IT WORKS!!!

Chris, I say this with much respect and I don't want to get in a pissing match saying that it does or does not work. I'm sure it does to some degree. But if these guys you mention are world class atheletes, then I've never seen any that are not on something stronger (gear). So how can you relate their success with your product? I think if you are honest, you have to say that it's not related. But again, that's not saying your product doesn't work. I just want to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

I understand. Let me put it this way, I will not comment about whether or not said individuals use anabolics. That would be for them. That said, even if they did, if they change nothing else about their drug and training regimen and add a supplement and see significant benefits from said supplement then it stands to reason said supplement was effective for them. That makes sense, no?

I know you do not know me from Sam, but I am not like so many other supplement company owners who will attibute an athlete's success to my products. Chuck was the best prior to ever using my products. That said, if he feels they help his training I think it would be stupid of me not to point that out. In addition, if he asks for the product for no reason other than he feels it works I think that is a great endorsement of the product and want to share it.

Posted by: nni

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifuge

yeah, sorry to clutter up your thread, ill bow out and not clutter it up anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

im not worried about losing face, and feel confident in what i have offered. hmb is not new, it is not a giant mystery to understand how it works, and the other ingredients are not new. they work on their own towards a common goal, but no research has shown that creatine enhances BA, or ba enhances hmb etc. by no means do i expect you to agree, that would be foolish. i just wanted to chime in and did, and expressed my feelings over the product, now for the sake of the person whose thread this is, ill stop posting, but by no means does that change anything i said.

Posted by: Built

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

No, the FACT is the product works extremely well as is evidenced by this log and that of nearly all of its users. Your comment about a 300 lbs powerlifter is really poor form.

Did that not come out how I intended? Sorry about that.
My point was that a 300-lb powerlifter can handle 80g of sugar all at once. Those fellas have WAY more muscle than I have.

My measly 114 lbs of middle-aged female lean mass can't handle that much. That's why I'm interested in a sugar-free version.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

yeah, sorry to clutter up your thread, ill bow out and not clutter it up anymore.

Ok, fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

Posted by: soxmuscle

So basically,

through the studies that nni and built brought about in this thread, the BA and HMB are useless and monohydrate is an inferior creatine compared to other types?

Posted by: TexanTA1996

Nearly all power lifters who compete at a high level usually use gear. So somehow they're magically attributing PR's in the gym due to an over the counter supplement that doesn't have a single conclusive study behind the main ingredient... Does this fool anyone over the age of 12?

Posted by: lucifuge

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

yeah, sorry to clutter up your thread, ill bow out and not clutter it up anymore.

nonsense, you're not cluttering anything. I value your opinions

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanTA1996

Nearly all power lifters who compete at a high level usually use gear. So somehow they're magically attributing PR's in the gym due to an over the counter supplement that doesn't have a single conclusive study behind the main ingredient... Does this fool anyone over the age of 12?

I don't know about 'fooling' anyone. I am simply recording information here.

Posted by: Built

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

So basically,

through the studies that nni and built brought about in this thread, the BA and HMB are useless and monohydrate is an inferior creatine compared to other types?

Creatine monohydrate is tried and true, and the only kind I ever use. Cheap and proven effective.

BA appears to have some positive attributes, but I honestly don't know enough about it.

HMB appears to have some utility under certain circumstances that have been tested under controlled conditions. Other carefully controlled studies have failed to demonstrate an effect.

Something to be careful with here is that even if a study fails to demonstrate an effect, this is not proof that it does not have any.

Neither is it true that an individual self-selecting to try a substance and reporting a positive result is proof of efficacy.

The short answer with regard to HMB supplementation in healthy adult athletes is "we don't know". What we DO know is that HMB may be beneficial to people who are recovering from wasting disease, and that it is not dangerous in the dosing suggested in Results.

And I am still interested in a sugar-free product.

Posted by: soxmuscle

Creatine Monohydrate, while tried and true, is no longer the best available creatine option IMO.

Even with a sugar free supplement, why pay top dollar for a mediocre supplement?

Gaspari Nutrition's SizeOn is cheaper and better for instance.

Posted by: TexanTA1996

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

If I thought it ineffective I could remove it and sell the product for significantly less and still make the same profit margin. I would be an idiot not to do that as more people will buy an effective product which costs less, no? My business acumen is relatively ok.

Not quite. There are a ton of creatine/dextrose supplements out there that use a combination of these two well known supplements. While your product costs more, it has a certain edge that all those other products don't have-the HMB and Beta. While you still maintain the same profit margin, you sell more total units-which leads to an overall increase in profit.

Nobody would buy your product if it was creatine, dextrose and Beta-because all of those products can be bought dirt cheap, and the overhead costs you would incur from combining them into your mixture wouldn't allow you to sell very much volume-because your costs would increase to the point where it would be stupid to pay for your product because you'd have to charge a higher than normal cost for otherwise dirt cheap products.

Adding the HMB allows you to differentiate your product from others, and at the same time still charge a higher price than the separate ingredients purchased on their own.

Posted by: nni

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

So basically,

through the studies that nni and built brought about in this thread, the BA and HMB are useless and monohydrate is an inferior creatine compared to other types?

no, not at all. BA is very good, as is creatine mono. HMB is what i question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

Creatine Monohydrate, while tried and true, is no longer the best available creatine option IMO.

Even with a sugar free supplement, why pay top dollar for a mediocre supplement?

Gaspari Nutrition's SizeOn is cheaper and better for instance.

sizeon is not mono, and has a lot more to it than carbs and creatine. creatine gluconate isnt necessarily superior to mono at all. thing is that mono is really the only creatine that is studied, all the other forms are just theory, and sexier to sell. this doesnt mean they dont work, studies exist, just none in comparison, so it is user results that make the difference.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanTA1996

You are wrong. I don't know what else to tell you. What you say is "dirt cheap" is still sold at a profit. You are not in the industry (obviously) and therefore have no idea what the true cost of the individual ingredients are. Your conjecture is inaccurate and it is foolish of you to state it as though it were fact.

You can believe what you want, and do what you want, that will not alter the fact RESULTS is a fantastic supplement for size and strength. I must say that I find it amusing that the naysayers in this thread are doing so in the face of a fellow member who is hitting PRs right and left.

Posted by: chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

Well, your opinion is not that which is shared by some of the best research scientists in the business. Men like Jeff Volek. I recently asked him his thoughts on other forms of creatine and he simply said that monohydrate is what he would go with confirming my personal stance.

As for Gaspari's product vs. mine, you have no idea as you have never used my product? Give it a try and then voice your opinion.

Posted by: Built

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built