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Originally Posted by Built
Chris,
Just to clarify - although it has been established that HMB does nothing on its own (hence, why you don't sell it as a stand-alone), it has a positive, interactive effect when combined as you have done with the other ingredients (creatine, dextrose, and BA) in your product? |
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Originally Posted by soxmuscle
At Large Nutrition's owner has stated on numerous occasions that HMB doesn't do anything on it's own, thus why he doesn't sell HMB by itself.
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Originally Posted by Prince
rather than continuing to post slanderous remarks like you just did, why don't you do some research yourself and report back here, thus be helpful and constructive here rather than an ass.
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Originally Posted by chris mason
One point being sorely missed by the "twits" is that HMB is part of a total formula which makes said formula better. As someone who formulates products, I think it incumbent upon me to create the best product I can within reasonable cost parameters. That is EXACTLY why I included HMB. You will note that I do not offer HMB by itself.
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Originally Posted by nni
Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate on aer...[Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007] - PubMed Result
Regarding body composition, there were no significant differences. Effects of six weeks of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbu...[J Strength Cond Res. 2007] - PubMed Result HMB and HMBCr were concluded to have no ergogenic effect on muscular strength and endurance, leg power, or anthropometry when taken orally by highly trained male athletes over 6 weeks. |
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Originally Posted by chris mason
I posted what I did to show an alternative to your opinion.
Next, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not preclude the fact RESULTS works exceptionally well and HMB is an integral component in the product. <snip> It would be ignorant to assume that HMB would have the same effects independently as it does in the context I have referenced. |
Chris Mason's argument hinges upon his assertion that HMB works differently - better - when combined with the other ingredients in his product (80g of sugar, 5g creatine monohydrate, 3.5g beta alanine, 3g HMB) than HMB does alone.The problem with this assertion is that there is no known mechanism through which this synergy could exist:
This is what is called an interaction. Chris Mason is suggesting that HMB may work by itself, or it may not - but that when combined with the other ingredients in Results, it adds value.
For example, suppose the following:
3g of HMB on its own increases some performance metric by A%
(where A is greater than or equal to zero)
80g of dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A increase said metric by B%
(where B is greater than zero, without a doubt. Creatine's worth has been established, creatine does indeed work better with dextrose, B-A has measureable benefit)
Chris Mason's assertion is that the combination of 80g dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A, when consumed with 3g of HMB, increases the performance metric by something larger than (A+B)%
Note that this is what "positive interaction" means.
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Originally Posted by nni
the second study is with creatine, and through the mechanisms in which creatine, beta alanine and hmb work there really is no synergy. creatine is effective as is beta alanine, as are carbs. there is synergy between carbs and creatine, but the others work on their own. point is if a study shows hmb doesnt work on its own, adding the above isnt going to change that imo. but, take out the hmb and half the carbs and results looks good to me, add in 7grams of eaa's and i would make it a staple.
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Originally Posted by chris mason
...whether or not HMB works by itself is something that is open to argument based upon various studies. I feel that it does, but could agree to disagree on that point. Now, IF you were correct and it did not work by itself that in no way indicates what it would do in concert with other ingredients and to make assumptions about it, especially when they fly in the face of empirical evidence, is just poor science. Chris |
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Originally Posted by nni
im not worried about losing face, and feel confident in what i have offered. hmb is not new, it is not a giant mystery to understand how it works, and the other ingredients are not new. they work on their own towards a common goal, but no research has shown that creatine enhances BA, or ba enhances hmb etc...
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Originally Posted by chris mason
Oh, and I forgot to mention you assertation about no research showing BA and creatine, or HMB and creatine having additive effects exists is wrong. There IS research which shows exactly that.
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Originally Posted by Prince
maybe, but can't you say the same about a lot of supplements, how many are really necessary?
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Originally Posted by soxmuscle
It should also be noted that this is a horrible point. Just because there are a plethora of bad/unnecessary supplements, At Large Nutrition should be left unaccountable?
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Originally Posted by Built
So it all comes down to this:
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Originally Posted by Prince
are they breaking a law? if what they are doing is so bad in your opinion don't buy their products, and report them to the FDA for false claims, just be sure you report every other supplement company along with them.
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Originally Posted by soxmuscle
Great post, Built.
I think we all know the answer here |
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Originally Posted by soxmuscle
Creatine is necessary.
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Originally Posted by Prince
Not really, but where was it established that HMB does nothing on it's own?
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Originally Posted by dg806
FWIW, I used HMB about 6 yrs ago at high doses. To me it done a great job.
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Originally Posted by Prince
then why are we discussing it?
check out the claims being about this product: Anabolic-Matrix Rx - Maximize Natural Testosterone Levels I don't know of any real world studies performed to support them. |
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Anabolic-Matrix Rx™ contains the highest quality herbal extracts and ingredients available. The Tribulus Terrestris in our formula contains a minimum of 20% Protodioscin, the active ingredient that raises LH (Leutenizing Hormone) levels. Most Tribulus based supplements on the market do not contain a high quality Tribulus extract and will do absolutely nothing! Our formula is all natural and completely unique combining high amounts of Tribulus Terrestris (40% extract), Tongkat Ali (20:1 extract), Diindolemethane, 5,7-Dihydroxyflavone, Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and Bioperine®, and has been shown to naturally increase Testosterone levels up to 150%! |
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Originally Posted by dg806
It is? Since when? It's not any more necessary than steriods are. If you want to get a benefit from it, sure, take it. But it is not necessary to lifting weights and I'm sure there are many people that don't take it. I just recently started taking it again after not taking it for several years.
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Originally Posted by TexanTA1996
I don't think he's going to be interested in discussing it because deep down, I think he knows what the deal is. Nobody is that stupid. There was a time when cigarette executives denied that smoking was bad for you, this is sort of the same deal. They know, but won't admit it.
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Originally Posted by soxmuscle
Like I said, the supplement industry is a complete scam of a business. A quackery business if you will. People are that stupid, it's unfortunate.
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Originally Posted by soxmuscle
By that logic, no supplements are necessary.
I truly believe without Glucosamine, my shoulder would still be healing right now. I truly believe the reason I haven't been sick over the last 4-5 years (outside of a common cold) is because of the multi-vitamins I take. etc. Creatine is a proven supplement. HMB has been proven to be ineffective unless taken in high doses as you mention later on in this thread. Apples to oranges. |
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Originally Posted by jchappj
dg what do you define as 'high doses'? I am always interested in real world experiences.
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Originally Posted by chris mason
I never said HMB does not work alone. I said that I do not sell it as a singular product.
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Originally Posted by chris mason
Next, for anyone to say all of the studies show HMB is not effective absolutely proves that individual should be ignored as they are making statements which have no basis in reality or fact.
Built, you too speak out of your ass rather often and try to hide behind the guise of "science" when doing so. There ARE studies which show HMB and creatine to have additive effects. In fact, Dr. Volek, who you claim to so love, was involved in one such study. |
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Originally Posted by Built
You said that it may or it may not - that you would agree to disagree on that point - but that it works in combination with the other ingredients in your product.
This isn't the same as saying its effect is additive - this is saying its effect is INTERACTIVE. Can you stop for just a moment and examine what you just said to me, Chris? You said Volek supports that the effect of HMB with creatine is ADDITIVE. I agree 100%. Read everything I posted in this thread, carefully this time. Volek says ADDITIVE. I say ADDITIVE. You suggested that even if it didn't work by itself (and you feel that it does, I'll give you that), it works IN COMBINATION with creatine, dextrose and B-A. That's not an ADDITIVE effect. That's an INTERACTIVE effect. Do you see the difference now? |
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Originally Posted by Built
Thanks Sox.
I taught Algebra, Calculus and Statistics for a long time - I'm used to explaining nuances to people who are having a hard time grasping logical concepts. |
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Originally Posted by chris mason
I believe HMB to have an additive effect and POSSIBLY an interactive one in RESULTS. I believe HMB works on its own, but I am not interested in selling it by itself at this time.
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Originally Posted by Built
There we go. That was what I was looking for, and thank you Chris, for that. I shall clarify my present stance, since you've graciously done the same.
The title of this thread is "HMB and it's effects when combined with other ingredients". With regard to well-trained athletes, I am not convinced HMB "works", and I am not convinced it does not work. As far as I am aware, At Large did not pilot a "HMB-only" supplement on any of its sponsored athletes, so this remains an unknown, and I'm satisfied to leave it there. I will neither agree nor disagree with you, Chris, on its efficacy as a stand-alone supplement. I have not tried it, you did not test it that way, and we simply do not know for certain. You do not sell it on its own, so this is not a real concern to us at this time. There is evidence that it does have some benefit in certain cases (untrained/detrained adults for example ), and it appears to be safe. When combining two or more treatments, there are main effects and there are interactive effects. The interactive effects may either add to or detract from (ie partially "cancel out") the main effect. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that HMB on its own has some measurable main effect. If this were true, then an ADDITIVE effect would imply that no matter what else you are taking, HMB will add the same metric of improvement. For example: Suppose a 3g dose of HMB increases your performance by "A". Further, let's suppose 80g of dextrose, 3.5g of B-A and 5g of micronized creatine monohydrate increases your performance by "B" If those effects are ADDITIVE, then a daily dose of Results will increase your performance by "A + B" If those effects are INTERACTIVE (lets only consider positive interaction for this example), then a daily dose of Results will increase your performance by "A + B + AB", where "AB" is some non-zero interaction effect. If indeed there is an interactive effect, there has to be a physiological mechanism through which this can occur. The problem is, there does not appear to be any such mechanism. Do you have something to support this? |
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Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts
Isn't science lovely? The benefit of scientific linearities like logic, math, and Newtonian physics is the satisfaction we get from proofs. Applying this kind of "truth" to a supplement, the interactions the supplement has within a human being, and whether there is an effect and the degree of that effect.
To really recognize benefits that hinge themselves on exercise stimulus, you have to wonder a lot of things about the people being tested: their nutritional outlook, natural stress level, training protocols, rest times, genetic potential. And don't give me that "average" crap, either, because modification of one in hundreds of variances or "overlooking" from the case Doctor can skew results. We need to be very careful in evaluating experiments that are related to human biology and the effects made on it from chemicals. As far as averages go, throwing two darts: one 5 inches to the left of the bullseye, and 5 inches to the right of the bullseye garners an average of a perfect hit. I'm not an alarmist or anti-experiment, either. There has been some very valuable and good work done and published in journals. That said there is also a lot of shit, and reading the conclusions, despite being easy and convenient, will sometimes lead you into believing the wrong thing. Back in the 70s (i think) many Doctors held the position that anabolic steroids did nothing - and published to that effect, a clear expression of their bias - despite the overwhelming reality that was contrary. The thing to remember here is that our bodies operate on sophisticated mechanical principles. Gene transcription, expression, receptor sensitivity, nutrition absorption efficiency, etc. will vary wildly from person to person. And those are the inherent factors, not including the environmental ones! What you eat, how you train, how much you sleep, how much you work, and the like. And, as anecdotal and unscientific as it sounds, the best way to figure out if a supplement is hype or helpful will depend largely on you. I've seen people who have taken creatine, gone insane with overestimating their recover ability, and dropped weight at the end of the cycle as well as having lost several pounds after. Of course, the fact that there is evidence it works whether additive or interactive or stand alone should warrant a personal experiment with it. At least wait to know before you slander it, yeah? |
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Originally Posted by jchappj
This thread is becoming a do loop. That comment is only fanning embers and is totally your opinion.
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Originally Posted by Built
I haven't actually ever bashed your product, Chris.
I can't handle the dextrose and requested a sugar free version, and I questioned the validity of the claims made by yourself and your sponsored athletes, but I haven't said that HMB doesn't work. I only ever said I don't know. And asked for something - ANYTHING - that would back up YOUR claims that your product:
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Originally Posted by TexanTA1996
A dextrose free version isn't offered because dextrose and creatine are the only two things in the supplement that are worth spending money on. It may be overpriced, but at least it has some ingredients that "work". Take those two away and you have nothing left.
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Originally Posted by dg806
Yeah, we have beat this subject to death.
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Originally Posted by JerseyDevil
One of my favorite quotes of all time....
"A sucker is born every minute", although P.T Barnum never said it, still a classic quote when it comes to seperating people from their money. After 20 years of lifting, these are my conclusions. I tried Joe Weider protein powders, no result except a smaller wallet. I tried chromium picolinate, no result except a smaller wallet. Tried EAS HMG, absolutely no gains, but a HIGHLY smaller wallet. I tried creatine..... gained 5 lbs of water and could do 3 more reps on a high rep wo. No more gain with continued use. But if I stopped, I lost 5 lbs of water and lost 3 reps on my high rep wo. After about 15 years of lifting consistently.... Tried prohormones in the form of 1AD, transdermal 4AD, M1T.... big gains. 30 lb increase in bench in around 2 to 2-1/2 weeks. Lost gains almost as fast as I gained once ceased. Tried steroids in the form of testosterone enanthate, deca, dianabol, winstrol. Huge gains in strength and size. Gains long lasting, about a year after ceasing.. Moral of the story, according to me (imo), don't waste your cash on "supplements" provided by the guys trying to make a living from it. If you are serious, use the real deal. Do I recommend that? NO. I recommend... LIFT BIG EAT BIG GET BIG Seems so simple huh? Food is super anabolic. Proof? If you stop eating, you will die. If you eat a bunch, you will get big (fat and muscle). If you stop eating, and take high dose steroids? You will still shrink and die. I'm sure the supplement boys will slam this post, but remember YOU are lining their wallets. They have an agenda. |
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Originally Posted by nni
yes, nothing works, science lies.
im all for saying the majority of stuff being sold is crap, but i will never say all supplements are worthless. it simply isnt true, but nothing will compare to steroids. |
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Originally Posted by TexanTA1996
Technically, a protein supplement is food. So I'm not talking about protein, or even weight gainers, MRP's etc...I don't believe he was either.
We're talking about 99% of the other supps out there. Multi's and all that stuff are great. However, most everything else is a gigantic waste of money. |
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Originally Posted by nni
when i see blood results per and post a test booster it does work, it just doesnt compare to the illegal compounds.
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Originally Posted by TexanTA1996
Supplements that have the ability to increase a humans testosterone levels enough to result in significant gains WILL have side effects that come with it. End of story. That puts them in a different class than the supplements I'm referring to.
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Originally Posted by TrojanMan60563
I tried HMB in like 98, and it wasn't amazing on its own...nothing great for what the cost was at the time. Its hard to say it did nothing because I was working so hard in the gym and diet was on point. If I had to give advice I would say HMB would be on the bottom of my list of supplements to use. I will go on a limb and say I believe that high doses of Glutamine is more effective....but on another note its been 10 years since trying it and things change within your body over the years...I would probably try it again to see if it did anything...but I wouldn't have high expectations.
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It's sort of like the workouts in the RESULTS log thread, mine just came 50 bucks cheaper.
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Originally Posted by TexanTA1996
Supplements that have the ability to increase a humans testosterone levels enough to result in significant gains WILL have side effects that come with it. End of story. That puts them in a different class than the supplements I'm referring to.
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Originally Posted by TexanTA1996
It is just me or do the opinions differ greatly from sponsors to real opinions
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Originally Posted by Built
I'm not so sure about that. If you can take something that puts you back into the high end of normal, won't you still enjoy better health without sides?
Just throwing it out there. |