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PSMF - Built etc... Hows this done?

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Posted by: goob

To anyone with knowledge of this (Built mentioned it a few times).

Hows it done?

Say for example someone weighing 160lbs, Maintenence 2500 cals.

Hows it laid out, what do you aim for?


Posted by: IainDaniel

It sucks and is really tough.

Basically you are at around 800 cals.

Another name for it is Protein simply mother fucker.


Posted by: goob

Quote:
Originally Posted by IainDaniel View Post
It sucks and is really tough.

Basically you are at around 800 cals.

Another name for it is Protein simply mother fucker.
So I eat nothing but protein to the tune of about 800 cals? Holy shit that is hard. For what two weeks? No cheating?


Posted by: Built

There's a bit more to it than that. I'm rushing out the door right now but I'll come back and mention more here in a bit. Meanwhile, I have it set up for a few people on my blog and you can read those to see how it goes. It's actually not that hard - the low carbs and high protein kill your appetite, and you only lift twice a week, low rep and heavy. And you get refeeds/cheat meals depending on the category you're in.

Got Built? » Lisa’s pre-Christmas Meltdown!
Got Built? » Got Josh?
Got Built? » The winter of my discontent PSMF (AKA Dane got ME!)


Posted by: goob

Thanks Iain and Built. Might try it short term to see whats sort of difference it makes.


Posted by: Built

Okay, goob, what percent bodyfat are you at currently?


Posted by: goob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
Okay, goob, what percent bodyfat are you at currently?
13-14% I think. Not sure exactly, but thats a close estimate.


Posted by: Built

Cool. You are category 1, same as me and Josh on the plans I linked.


Posted by: goob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
Cool. You are category 1, same as me and Josh on the plans I linked.
Cool. Do I need dextrose you had in the plan? Can i get by without it?

Also, how important is the cardio? I used to be a pretty decent runner, but I gave it up a few months back, so could I get by without this too?

I'll give it a good combing over, over with some other material I have.

Thanks Built.


Posted by: Merkaba

lol...I did this for three weeks,per built...not quite as strict as I could have but I still lost ten lbs, went from 223 to 213.

What most evil of situations makes you want to punish yourself to such an extent??!! lol.... check out my thread if you havent.

(the chicken and cabbage soup can really be great if you doctor it up)

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/tr...irst-show.html


Posted by: goob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkaba View Post
lol...I did this for three weeks,per built...not quite as strict as I could have but I still lost ten lbs, went from 223 to 213.

What most evil of situations makes you want to punish yourself to such an extent??!! lol.... check out my thread if you havent.

(the chicken and cabbage soup can really be great if you doctor it up)

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/tr...irst-show.html
Yeah, I did check out. You look great, fantastic job.

I'm a lazy bastard with a lot going on at the moment. I reckon a really quick ultra hardcore diet would suit me far better than a proper drawn out cut. Three weeks of hell, is better than a couple of months of comfortable 'hell'.


Posted by: Built

Quote:
Originally Posted by goob View Post
Cool. Do I need dextrose you had in the plan? Can i get by without it?

Also, how important is the cardio? I used to be a pretty decent runner, but I gave it up a few months back, so could I get by without this too?

I'll give it a good combing over, over with some other material I have.

Thanks Built.

No dextrose is necessary, and you actually shouldn't be doing any cardio outside of walking.


Posted by: Witchblade

It's for the obese.


Posted by: Built

Or not. I liked what 12 days of it did for me to kick-start my cut after Christmas.


Posted by: P-funk

yea, it is not just for the obese.

seriously, buy lyle's book....it is good.


Posted by: Witchblade

I haven't seen any evidence supporting the benefits of a PSMF, except for the obese. Could you show me any, Built (or anyone else)?


Posted by: Built

The benefits?

Define the metric.


Posted by: Witchblade

Benefits compared to a 'regular' low calorie diet with 1g/lb of protein, essential fats and carbs or fat to make up for the rest of your calories, especially considering you'd need a shorter refeeding period on a standard diet.

I'm also particularly worried about the negative effects of a PSMF on a not-overweight person. I don't have any data on this.

In short, I know a PSMF is an excellent diet for overweight people and I guess it could be used as a crash diet to make weight (easy to combine with cutting water weight), but that's about it.

New data could change my take on the subject of course.


Posted by: Built

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
Benefits compared to a 'regular' low calorie diet with 1g/lb of protein, essential fats and carbs or fat to make up for the rest of your calories, especially considering you'd need a shorter refeeding period on a standard diet.

I'm also particularly worried about the negative effects of a PSMF on a not-overweight person. I don't have any data on this.

In short, I know a PSMF is an excellent diet for overweight people and I guess it could be used as a crash diet to make weight (easy to combine with cutting water weight), but that's about it.

New data could change my take on the subject of course.
Um, I eat a lot more than a gram of protein per pound lean mass when I'm cutting… and I'd hardly consider making water weight the same thing as running a PSMF.

Witchblade, have you read Lyle's book?


Posted by: Witchblade

You're evading my question.


Posted by: Built

I'm not evading it - I'm trying to answer the right thing. If you haven't read the book, you're coming from a different position than those of us who have. I need to know how to address your concerns. If you've read it, but still don't see the utility, we can discuss that. If you haven't read it, I can offer you a Cole's Notes version so you can clarify your thoughts.


Posted by: Witchblade

I haven't read the book, but I understand the basic principles of PSMFs. I'd definitely like to read a good summary though. (I have time nor money nor patience to read the entire book.)

As for my question, I'll try to paraphrase it. The question is twofold.

Firstly, I'm concerned about the negative effects a PSMF might have on an already lean invidvidual. I've seen enough studies that show how effective and safe PSMFs are for obese people, but none for lean trainees. Protein is very high, calories are extremely low, essential fats and fat ratios (omega 6:3, saturated:unsaturated, etc.) are lacking and the changes are sudden. Of course you will lose fat, but at what cost? How will the liver react to all this? What happens to your hormonal balance, namely insulin, glucagon, cortisol, GH and IGF-1? In short, how safe is it? That's the first part of my question. I don't have any studies to answer it, so I honoustly don't know. I do know of studies that show the effects of equally low caloric all liquid diets and they're most definitely not pretty. I've learned not to underestimate the damage you can do to your body in just two weeks. Risk > reward?

Secondly, how effective is it compared to a less drastic diet? Who so much protein and so little essential fats? I'm talking over a period of weeks or months here. I have no data that compares PMSFs to other diets for lean individuals.


Posted by: Built

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
I haven't seen any evidence supporting the benefits of a PSMF, except for the obese. Could you show me any, Built (or anyone else)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
The benefits?

Define the metric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
Benefits compared to a 'regular' low calorie diet with 1g/lb of protein, essential fats and carbs or fat to make up for the rest of your calories, especially considering you'd need a shorter refeeding period on a standard diet.

I'm also particularly worried about the negative effects of a PSMF on a not-overweight person. I don't have any data on this.

In short, I know a PSMF is an excellent diet for overweight people and I guess it could be used as a crash diet to make weight (easy to combine with cutting water weight), but that's about it.

New data could change my take on the subject of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
Um, I eat a lot more than a gram of protein per pound lean mass when I'm cutting… and I'd hardly consider making water weight the same thing as running a PSMF.

Witchblade, have you read Lyle's book?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
You're evading my question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
I'm not evading it - I'm trying to answer the right thing. If you haven't read the book, you're coming from a different position than those of us who have. I need to know how to address your concerns. If you've read it, but still don't see the utility, we can discuss that. If you haven't read it, I can offer you a Cole's Notes version so you can clarify your thoughts.
Well, you may not be around now and I may not be around later, so I'll try to answer this from two possible angles.

If you have not read the book…

The diet we are talking about here is Lyle McDonald's "The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook - A Scientific Approach to Crash Dieting". It is Lyle's take on the Protein Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF) which has been used medically to induce rapid fat loss in morbidly obese undergoing medically supervised rapid fat loss. Lyle has modified this with the strength athlete in mind, with three different categories (depending upon percent bodyfat) which come with different guidelines for duration, free meals, and refeeds. The protocol is outlined in detail (it's a very good read), and he discusses the need for full diet breaks and exit strategies. He sells it on his site if you're interested.

If you HAVE read the book…

You will certainly know that this isn't a lifestyle - Lyle is quite clear on this fact.

My personal opinion on it is that it is a valid modality to use under a variety of circumstances for the non-obese who are looking to drop bodyfat - IF the person using it already knows how to set up a maintenance diet to maintain the weight-loss. This (coupled with muscle-loss from low-protein, super-low calorie dieting with too much activity) is where most people fail miserably under conventional crash-dieting paradigms.

For an individual who already knows how to diet properly, a few weeks of PSMF at the beginning of a cut is a nice way to get a kick-start going, particularly if coming back from a layoff or travelling abroad where diet may have gotten away. While you are at your "juiciest", you aren't going to risk metabolic shut down. Neither will you risk much - if any - LBM in a two-week crash diet with very high protein and almost no training.

Many of us use these periods as a combination of "layoff from intensive periods of training" with a fat-loss kick-start. I learned the value of this earlier this year and it's been invaluable to me.

Another perk to Lyle's plan is that a lot of people in this sport find maintenance (at ANY weight) a lot easier than slow, micromanaged dieting. For people who prefer this, dieting can become a series of somewhat discrete quanta instead of a slow, steady trickle of losses: say, two weeks PSMF, two weeks maintenance, repeat…

See? Not evading. The question you asked was more than one simple thing to answer.


Posted by: Built

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
I haven't read the book, but I understand the basic principles of PSMFs. I'd definitely like to read a good summary though. (I have time nor money nor patience to read the entire book.)

As for my question, I'll try to paraphrase it. The question is twofold.

Firstly, I'm concerned about the negative effects a PSMF might have on an already lean invidvidual. I've seen enough studies that show how effective and safe PSMFs are for obese people, but none for lean trainees. Protein is very high, calories are extremely low, essential fats and fat ratios (omega 6:3, saturated:unsaturated, etc.) are lacking and the changes are sudden. Of course you will lose fat, but at what cost? How will the liver react to all this? What happens to your hormonal balance, namely insulin, glucagon, cortisol, GH and IGF-1? In short, how safe is it? That's the first part of my question. I don't have any studies to answer it, so I honoustly don't know. I do know of studies that show the effects of equally low caloric all liquid diets and they're most definitely not pretty. I've learned not to underestimate the damage you can do to your body in just two weeks. Risk > reward?

Secondly, how effective is it compared to a less drastic diet? Who so much protein and so little essential fats? I'm talking over a period of weeks or months here. I have no data that compares PMSFs to other diets for lean individuals.
Ah - we posted at the same time.

It is clear from your questions that you are not at all familiar with Lyle's protocol. Lyle's handbook is not ONE diet, it's three - with different setups for what he calls category 1, 2, and 3 dieters. He has VERY specific guidelines for lean individuals with regard to the duration they can do this type of diet, the refeed, and the time required OFF the diet to prevent the negatives to which you are referring from happening.


Posted by: goob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
Benefits compared to a 'regular' low calorie diet with 1g/lb of protein, essential fats and carbs or fat to make up for the rest of your calories, especially considering you'd need a shorter refeeding period on a standard diet.

I'm also particularly worried about the negative effects of a PSMF on a not-overweight person. I don't have any data on this.

In short, I know a PSMF is an excellent diet for overweight people and I guess it could be used as a crash diet to make weight (easy to combine with cutting water weight), but that's about it.

New data could change my take on the subject of course.
Witch is just looking out for me. What a nice chap.... Never knew he cared....


Posted by: Witchblade

OK, I think we're really miscommunicating here. You've given a lot of good info, but not what I'm looking for. I still don't see any data to support the notion that so much protein and so little fat is required (efficacy) or studies that show the absence of side effects (safety). I understand the basics, but these two points aren't covered by the basics.

However, I think I'm missing the point too. I just looked at your blog and the 3 PSMF examples there are definitely not what I'm talking about. 2 of them are high bf% and Josh still consumes nearly 2,500kcal. This doesn't disturb me at all (although I have my doubts about the 2g/lb protein). It's just a regular crash diet with lots of protein.

So, to avoid further miscommunication let's get this straight. I'm talking about the standard PSMF, the one Iain was also referring to: sub 1,000 Cals, not much but protein. Is Lyle's category 1 this same thing or is it like Josh's diet in your blog?


Posted by: Built

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
OK, I think we're really miscommunicating here. You've given a lot of good info, but not what I'm looking for. I still don't see any data to support the notion that so much protein and so little fat is required (efficacy) or studies that show the absence of side effects (safety). I understand the basics, but these two points aren't covered by the basics.

However, I think I'm missing the point too. I just looked at your blog and the 3 PSMF examples there are definitely not what I'm talking about. 2 of them are high bf%
Which two? Lisa is in the low thirties, but I'm only at about 21% there, putting me and Josh in the "leanest" category: 1.
(Pssst.. I'm a GURL! 21% is pretty damned lean for a woman - we compete at 10-12%. Fashion models are usually 30%. LOL!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
and Josh still consumes nearly 2,500kcal. This doesn't disturb me at all (although I have my doubts about the 2g/lb protein). It's just a regular crash diet with lots of protein.
What doubts do you have about 2g/LB lean mass - that it needs to be this high to prevent muscle loss? Of course it doesn't. Protein does, however, stimulate CCK (increases post-prandial satiety) and suppress ghrelin (decreases appetite) better than fat or carbohydrate. Most helpful while STARVING!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post

So, to avoid further miscommunication let's get this straight. I'm talking about the standard PSMF, the one Iain was also referring to: sub 1,000 Cals, not much but protein. Is Lyle's category 1 this same thing or is it like Josh's diet in your blog?
I'm pretty sure Iain was talking about the same diet as the rest of us (the tipoff was "motherfucker"! ). Lyle's book outlines the most extreme end of low you can go to - which, if you have 200lbs of lean mass and you're a category 3 dieter, means 800 calories a day from protein, plus the tag-along few hundred from leafy veggies and such. I count these - and Josh's plan reflects that. Also, Josh was not a category 3 dieter - he's category 1. Category 1 dieters have to be more careful than Category 2s and 3s. Of course, many of the rules get bent when the athlete is assisted, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

Wichblade, you really ought to read the book. You strike me as an intelligent person with thoughtful insight and good questions. Lyle addresses your very apt concerns in his book. Addressing your point regarding EFAs etc, there are guidelines for these in Lyle's setup. Nonetheless, when I did this diet, 6 days in my mouth was so dry I had to make the executive decision to slow down the diet in favour of some additional fat. My body can NOT handle low-fat dieting under any circumstances. I was rapidly becoming malnourished, and I AM assisted (!) - I'm on transdermal testosterone and progesterone HRT.

Ultimately, the intelligent approach to these things is to adjust to the individual. Lyle's book gives the lowest safe levels from which to start.


Posted by: Built

The book can be bought here: Bodyrecomposition - Lyle McDonald

And you can talk to Lyle on his forum - maybe ask him why he set the diet up the way he did: BodyRecomposition Support Forums - Powered by vBulletin


Posted by: Witchblade

I guess I should read the book then. I'll also make sure to visit the forum you linked.

Thanks for the help. You da girl.


Posted by: Built

Yes, yes I am...



Cheers!


Posted by: DaMayor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
Yes, yes I am...



Cheers!
wow.


I hate to go backwards here, but where were the categories defined?


Posted by: Built

Um, in the book...


Posted by: DaMayor

Sorry for the stupid question.


Posted by: Built

LOL - the thread kinda went sideways there for a bit! Lyle's categories depend on how fat you are - one's the leanest, three's the fattest.


Posted by: dg806

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade View Post
I guess I should read the book then. I'll also make sure to visit the forum you linked.

Thanks for the help. You da girl.
No, she's the WOMAN! She's far from a girl.







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