Dead Lifts [Forum Archive]

Pages: 1

Dead Lifts

(CLICK HERE here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: Snarff

Hi,

One of my routine days looks like the following (3 x 8)

Pull-Ups (can currently only manage 3 x 5)
Lat Pull Downs
Cable Rows
Single Arm Lat Pull Downs
Deadlifts
(Considering adding bent-over rows instead of lat pull downs????)

Question is, should I continue to do the deadlifts last in my routine or is it preferable to do them as one of the first exercises? what are your preferences?

Posted by: RasPlasch

Why would you do them last? You do deadlifts first. Always.

Posted by: Snarff

doing deads wipe me so i leave them to last, i give them every last ounce of enery knowing they're my last exercise, any particular reason why you think they should always be first or is it just a preference thing?

Posted by: RasPlasch

Because it is best to perform compound lifts first. You are doing a bunch of isolation lifts first. Deadlifts are the best exercise you can do for your body. I do them first so I can perform them at 100%. I wouldn't do them last when I am weak and tired.

I rather be wiped out from deadlifts then to be wiped out by a bunch of isolation exercises.

If I were you. My workout would be...

Deadlifts
Pullups
Then some sort of row.

Why do you do pullups and lat pulls? Those are the same thing.

Posted by: Snarff

i dont feel weak and tired when it comes round to doing deads tho,

sorry meant to say palms facing chin-ups, cant do pull-ups. i've lost a lot of weight over the past 2 years but did it without much knowledge and lost a lot of muscle and strength, as I ony cared about getting the scale weight to come down, so working on building by muscles and core strength back again. chins and pull-ups are my weak points so i prefer to have more energy to do them earlier if that makes sense

Posted by: Perdido

I always do deads or squats first. What's the rest of your days look like? Can you move chins to another day?

Posted by: RasPlasch

Well do chinups then do deadlifts after. I just wouldn't do them last is all I'm saying.

Posted by: Hoglander

Life lesson.... Always do the hardest most dreadful thing first. Physical, mental, social.. it does not matter. Prepare yourself for what drains you in a way that prepares you physically and mentally. THEN FUCKING OWN IT. Everything after that is easy and a joy.

: )

Or be a pussy and/or get none.

Posted by: Snarff

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoglander

Life lesson.... Always do the hardest most dreadful thing first. Physical, mental, social.. it does not matter. Prepare yourself for what drains you in a way that prepares you physically and mentally. THEN FUCKING OWN IT. Everything after that is easy and a joy.

well thats me convinced, deads go first!

Posted by: Lobo2009

I also do deadlifts last, although I dont do as much total volume as you. Deadlifts do take alot out of you as you said, a valid reason to move them towards the end of the workout if you feel it affects other exercises if you do them first. Also, doing the other exercises can pre-exhaust your back before you hit deadlifts.

You can do either way. I would say do what feels best for you. As long as you continue to progress. Try them first in the workout (or even in the middle) to see if you find it better. But change back if you prefer them at the end (cos people here say do them first, doesnt mean its best for you).

Also, from the fact that you say you can only manage 3x5 pullups, Im guessing your relatively new to training (apologies if Im mistaken). So, if I were you, Id drop some of them exercises and concentrate on the core movements, attempting to get stronger on each. Something like:

chinups
Barbell Rows (or T-Bar Rows)
Deadlifts

Posted by: Snarff

i've been lifting on/off for about 18 months, never took diet and training 100%, but thats all changing so i'm relatively new to setting up a proper routine. only started doing chins recently ( i dropped all direct bi work suck as bicep curls and hammer curls etc), i've been reading here for a while before registering so i have a general idea of the movements and splits needed (push-pull, upper lower)

i'm gonna drop the lat pull downs ( but keep the single arm lat pull downs) and introduce t-bar rows

Posted by: Skib

Do deadlifts early in your session... first or second... I can't think of any reason why you'd want to do them last though...

Posted by: Lobo2009

Whats your back routine look like in detail? Exercise order, number of sets, reps etc. On how many of these sets do you go to failure or past failure (using forced reps, drop sets, etc)? And how often do you work your back?

Posted by: Snarff

did the deads second after the chins, grip was a lot better which usually goes first so will be able to up the weight a bit, so i'll keep em early, did upright rows and dropped the lat pull downs, alot tougher movement!

Posted by: Lobo2009

Snarff, if you find it works better for you, keep it this way.

The only point Id make is that you want to ensure you structure your workout correctly. Many people believe that the more you do the better. This isnt true - especially if you up your intensity (taking sets to and past failure), then you want to drop the volume.

Looking on past experience with myself, Id recommend doing only core exercises and concentrate on increasing weight on these exercises. Sticking to 2 or 3 exercises for back in a workout may be enough, possibly alternating exercises every workout and ensure you increase weight each time. Weight increases only need to be small (up to 5%), they will build up over time.

Posted by: Skib

next ditch the upright rows... I used to do them all the time until somebody pointed out that they put considerable stress on your rotator cuff... ever notice how they feel like such an unnatural movement? yeah, there's a reason :P

I used to waste all kinds of time doing various raises and upright rows... what a waste of time...

Posted by: Snarff

how does this look

Chins 3 x to failure - today managed 6, 5, 5, should i do 5 x 5 of these for a while?
Deads 3 x 8, not quite failure on first 2 sets but it is on the 3rd (3 min rest interval)
Upright rows 3 x 8 not to failure
Cable Rows 3 x 8 to failure
would keeping single arm lat pull downs be too much here even if i could manage it?

also , what site would you anyone recommend for getting videos showing good technique and form on certain exercises such as the upright row, somehow don't think youtube cuts it!

Posted by: Snarff

what did you replace the rows with skib? i always believed they were a recomended movement? tried them today for the first time and they didnt feel right but thought it was because my form wasnt right

Posted by: Skib

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarff

how does this look

Chins 3 x to failure - today managed 6, 5, 5, should i do 5 x 5 of these for a while?
Deads 3 x 8, not quite failure on first 2 sets but it is on the 3rd (3 min rest interval)
Upright rows 3 x 8 not to failure
Cable Rows 3 x 8 to failure
would keeping single arm lat pull downs be too much here even if i could manage it?

this all depends on what the rest of your program looks like... if you have one?

I like to do weighted chins and pull ups but if you don't have a belt or don't feel ready to do them weighted then what I would suggest to increase strength for this exercise is to pick a number (eg. 50) and do as many sets as it takes to reach this number. The stronger you get the less sets it'll take you to reach your total number.

Again, I wouldn't recommend upright rows for shoulders or traps. Stick to heavy deadlifts and vertical presses. Maybe try power cleans when you feel ready. You should work in some face pulls too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarff

also , what site would you anyone recommend for getting videos showing good technique and form on certain exercises such as the upright row, somehow don't think youtube cuts it!

youtube is great actually... just make sure you check more than one source. You can sort of tell which videos are legit and which ones aren't so much.

Posted by: Skib

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarff

what did you replace the rows with skib? i always believed they were a recomended movement? tried them today for the first time and they didnt feel right but thought it was because my form wasnt right

Just to be clear I'm only talking about upright rows. Any other horizontal rowing is great.

Posted by: Skib

And you need to post the rest of your training program. What does your split look like? Looking at a bigger picture will help others give you advice on how to shape each individual session.

Posted by: Snarff

day 1 ( sunday)
Deads etc

Day 2 (Wed)
Crunches 3 x 15
Bench Press 3 x 8
Incline Dumbell Press 3 x 8
Dips 3 x 8 (Soon gonna start weighted hopefully

Tricep Push Down 3 x 8

Day 3 (Friday)
Shoulder Press 3 x 8
Clean & Press 3 x 8
Squat 3 x 8
Leg Extensions 3 x 12 (i'm waiting on the abuse

)
Gonna maybe try farmer walks this friday but dont know if my gym has enough space, what sort of distance should i be covering without stopping, or an alternative??

Posted by: Skib

Hmmm... I'll probably leave it up to somebody a little more knowledgable to help you out more specifically but I can tell you right now they may say something along the lines of:

- ditch the tricep push downs (dips are more than enough for this type of movement)

- there's probably no need to do shoulder presses AND clean & presses... i would think shoulder presses and cleans or just clean & presses would be enough

- I think most will discourage you from doing leg extensions... I was stubborn at first too but am no longer doing them

Right now your split looks like a body part split (day 1 back, day 2 chest and day 3 shoulders) with legs just kinda thrown in here and there...

I'll leave it to someone else to comment on the importance of balance and maybe suggest a better way to split up your program...

Posted by: Skib

This is my new one that I'm going to try (Gaz, helped me set it up and I think it's something that I'll enjoy doing... Thanks Gaz!)

DAY 1 - Upper Push Horizontal/Upper Pull Vertical

Bench
Pullups
Incline DB Press
Face Pulls

DAY 2 - Lower Push Bilateral/Lower Pull Unilateral

Squats
Single Leg RDLs (haven't actually tried these yet so not sure what I'll think of them)
Goblets (love these)
Single Leg Hyperextensions (also am not really sure about these... regular hyperextensions are ok, but single leg? never tried that before)

DAY 3 - Upper Pull Horizontal/Upper Push Vertical

Bent Over Rows
Arnold Press
Dumbell Rows
Dips

DAY 4 - Lower Pull Bilateral/Lower Push Unilateral

Deadlifts
Lunges
Romanian Deadlifts
Step Ups

Posted by: Lobo2009

If your training 3 days, push/pull/legs is always a good workout. Or you could go for a 5x5 workout (do a search on Bill Starr or Frankie NY's 5x5 routine).

Concentrate on getting stronger on compound exercises and drop all isolation work. Someone who's bench press goes up from 100kg to 150kg is going to be much much bigger. You cant make these sort of improvements doing cable crossovers and all these additional exercises just adds volume which may slow down your recovery and slow your progress on the big lifts.

Posted by: Lobo2009

An example routine may be:

PUSH
DB Press
Incline DB Press
Barbell Shoulder Press
Dips

PULL
Chin Ups
Deadlift or/and Barbell Row
Bicep BB Curl

LEGS
Squat
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Calf Raises

The volume may look low, but if you put the intensity in it will be enough. Aim for increasing your weight on every lift each workout. As you get stronger on these lifts, you will get bigger.

Can I also add to ensure you take a week off every 3 months (or whenever your body needs it). If you train hard your body will start to feel it and your gains will start to slow. This is a key to take some time off and get ready to hit it hard again.

Any gains obviously depends on your diet being spot on.

Posted by: Skib

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lobo2009

An example routine may be:

PUSH
DB Press
Incline DB Press
Barbell Shoulder Press
Dips

PULL
Chin Ups
Deadlift or/and Barbell Row
Bicep BB Curl

LEGS
Squat
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Calf Raises

The volume may look low, but if you put the intensity in it will be enough. Aim for increasing your weight on every lift each workout. As you get stronger on these lifts, you will get bigger.

Can I also add to ensure you take a week off every 3 months (or whenever your body needs it). If you train hard your body will start to feel it and your gains will start to slow. This is a key to take some time off and get ready to hit it hard again.

Any gains obviously depends on your diet being spot on.

I would definitely do deadlifts AND BB rows but that's just me... I don't really consider deadlifts a horizontal pulling movement and without BB rows that split has no horizontal pulls...

what was said about the volume seeming low is true... once you start to incorporate more heavy compound exercises you start to realize that you just don't have the juice for the smaller stuff you used to waste so much time on!

the other day I did squats, deadlifts and dips and had absolutely no energy left for anything else...

Posted by: Ben dur

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skib

This is my new one that I'm going to try (Gaz, helped me set it up and I think it's something that I'll enjoy doing... Thanks Gaz!)

DAY 1 - Upper Push Horizontal/Upper Pull Vertical

Bench
Pullups
Incline DB Press
Face Pulls

DAY 2 - Lower Push Bilateral/Lower Pull Unilateral

Squats
Single Leg RDLs (haven't actually tried these yet so not sure what I'll think of them)
Goblets (love these)
Single Leg Hyperextensions (also am not really sure about these... regular hyperextensions are ok, but single leg? never tried that before)

DAY 3 - Upper Pull Horizontal/Upper Push Vertical

Bent Over Rows
Arnold Press
Dumbell Rows
Dips

DAY 4 - Lower Pull Bilateral/Lower Push Unilateral

Deadlifts
Lunges
Romanian Deadlifts
Step Ups

to be perfectly honest i hate this...
looks like complete garbage...

but thats for a different thread i guess...

when i do my back workout i superset pullups and deadlifts
5 sets

5 sets of barbell shrugs

then i do some biceps and im done

and ive been givin many compliments on the size, shape, and definition in my back

in my opinion

pullups/chins
deadlifts
shrugs
are absolutely ALL you need for good back development

Posted by: Skib

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben dur

to be perfectly honest i hate this...
looks like complete garbage...

but thats for a different thread i guess...

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/tr...-properly.html

please feel free to comment and tell me why you think it's garbage? I'm not sold on it by any means... just looking to try something new but I'd love to hear your comments...

Posted by: Snarff

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lobo2009

As you get stronger on these lifts, you will get bigger.

Any gains obviously depends on your diet being spot on.

should have mentioned that i'm cutting for the next 10 weeks, aim to lose around 10-15 pounds as I way overdid during christmas, (well whole off december actually)

though does the fact that i'm cutting change the volume or exercises i should be down?

i prefer the 3 day split, but thought with 4 days rest per week (well 2 days of football (soccer), not training but play with friends for an hour) i could add more volume?

yeah my diet is spot on shooting for around 2000 cals, 200 - 230g protein, 90 grams fat, rest carbs roughly 100g or less with a moderate carb up on a friday as i'm not quite on a keto.

i'll have to google some of those exercises so i'll be back with a new and hopefully improved plan

Posted by: Ben dur

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skib

thanks for the link

wasnt trying to bash it..
just dont like it personally

Posted by: Skib

it's all good man, I'm pretty easy going and don't tend to take things personally... I'm just looking to start a new program and this was something Gaz helped me set up that I thought might work pretty well... I'm always looking for other opinions though...

Posted by: Lobo2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarff

though does the fact that i'm cutting change the volume or exercises i should be down?

When you are cutting, what you want to achieve in the gym is maintaining the intensity of your routine. Let the diet (and cardio) take care of dropping the fat, try to keep progressing on the weights in the gym.

In my opinion, lower volume with a high intensity is better while on restricted calories. Higher volume can increase recovery time for your body, which may be increased anyway due to the restricted calorie intake.

Id personally suggest using the 3 day split as outlined. See how you get on. You should see progress in weights initially, even if your dieting.

Posted by: Lobo2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben dur

when i do my back workout i superset pullups and deadlifts
5 sets
5 sets of barbell shrugs
then i do some biceps and im done

Personally, I wouldnt use supersets, especially on deadlifts. You want to concentrate on increasing strength on each movement over time, which will be difficult to do and see measured progress when supersetting.

Also, if you are deadlifting correctly, you need to be fresh for each set. You have to put 100% maximum effort into deadlifting and it can be dangerous if placed in a superset.

For back, you really wanna hit 2 exercises. One to concentrate on width (a pulldown exercise) and one for thickness (a rowing exercise and/or deadlifts).

For width, select from:

wide grip chins/pulldowns/rack chins/pullups/close grip pulldowns

and for thickness:

deadlifts/rack deadlifts/barbell rows/dumbell rows/t-bars

You can select 2 or 3 and build a program around these, or even alternate exercises each workout.

My opinion, of course. My back development is not bad (see avatar), although could have been served better from spending more time in the past deadlifting. Im correcting this at the moment. Ive built my back from a core of chin ups and barbell rows.

Posted by: Snarff

How does this look:
Day 1 :
Pull-ups
Dead Lifts
Barbell Rows
Single Arm Lat Pull downs

Day 2 :
Bench Press
Incline Dumbell Press
Dips
Clean and Press

Day 3 :
Squats
Goblet Squats
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Calf Raises

I intend doing 3 sets of 8, excluding warm up set, and to failure where the number of reps isnt possible yet(chins), 45 mins or so gym time roughly, doesnt seem like much tho.

how often would you add weight, target of adding roughly 2.5 % per week? more?

any of these exercises which you would recommend 5 x 5, i understand its 80-90% diet, but i wanna maximise my time spent in the gym

thanks,

Posted by: Hench

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lobo2009

I dont think it really matters, whatever you are more comfortable doing, as long as you get a decent rest between supersets. I dont see how it can be dangerous.

However I do agree with everything else in your post.

Posted by: Lobo2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarff

How does this look:
Day 1 :
Pull-ups
Dead Lifts
Barbell Rows
Single Arm Lat Pull downs

Day 2 :
Bench Press
Incline Dumbell Press
Dips
Clean and Press

Day 3 :
Squats
Goblet Squats
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Calf Raises

Id drop the goblet squat, single arm lat pulldown (you love this dont you). You can also drop one of the chest exercises (I know I mentioned 2 but looking at the routine, its not balanced) and change the order of dips and clean and press.

If you doing 5x5, you take large rests between sets (3-5 mins) and increase the weight when you manage to hit 5 reps on the last set.

Posted by: Snarff

lol, you caught me, i do love the single arm lat pull downs, so dropping all those you mentioned would leave 3 exercises each workout? or would you simply replace them?

somehow doesn't seem right walking 15 minutes to the gym and then 15 minutes home again to do 3 exercises

will gladly swap the dips and cleans tho

Posted by: Skib

It's really not that unbalanced in my opinion... I've been training for years but just recently realized that I was doing a lot of stuff wrong... either way I think that program is certainly an improvement from what you were doing... as for 5x5, I typically like to use this format for at least one exercise in every movement plane if that makes sense... so as an example I'd use it for bench press, BB rows, squats, deadlifts, a vertical push and a vertical pull... the rest I keep mostly around 3x8 and some stuff 2x12...

Also, it was recently pointed out to me that it might be a better idea to manipulate your reps than to keep adding weight every week... eventually you just won't be able to lift the amount of weight you're adding...

so instead of always doing 3x8, maybe try using a weight that will allow you to complete a set of 8 for the first set, but maybe only 7 the next and 6 the last... work your way up to being able to do 3x8 and once you can do that, try adding more weight and start working your way back up...

(CLICK HERE here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Dead Lifts

Article Archives

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60