Pages: 1

The Official PCT of 2009

(CLICK HERE here to view the original thread with full colors/images)





Posted by: Primordial

Dear Member,

I'm proud to present the official Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) of 2009.

If you're considering using pro-hormones, or even illegal anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS’s), then you should read this article before going any further.

Some information given here will be new, some will be old, but all of it is based off successful real-world protocols developed from the counseling of hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders worldwide. The information presented here will allow you to come clean from a cycle while keeping your gains, surging your sex drive, and making you feel healthier than you ever have before.

Before we get into the details I want to illustrate several major problems with the average PCT protocol -



Mega-Dosing of SERMs


There is no doubt that SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) such as Clomid and Nolvadex can stimulate testosterone production.

Unfortunately, these drugs can have a host of side effects including -
Clomid in particular can lead to emotional side-effects and cause a man to feel like a weeping and emotionally distressed pregnant woman. This is because Clomid acts like an estrogen in certain parts of the brain and causes serious emotional episodes. To read more about the side-effects of SERM's, read this article.

In the “Perfect PCT” section below we will discuss the proper use of SERM’s for PCT.



Over Use of Anti-Estrogens


Aromatase inhibitors (AI's) such as Arimidex, Aromasin, and Formestane are powerful tools for reducing estrogen conversion from heavily aromatizing drugs such as Testosterone or Dianabol. While these drugs are sometimes useful during cycle, these drugs are often counter-productive to use during PCT.

More specifically, it is a common misconception that estrogen will be elevated post cycle. Generally, estrogen is below a normal level after a cycle, especially if the cycle consisted primarily of non-aromatizing (non-estrogenic) AAS's or pro-hormones. Additionally, if one uses proper anti-estrogen's during a cycle with aromatizing AAS's then estrogen will not be elevated in this scenario either. Therefore, assuming proper AI's are used during cycle, I can only recommend an AI be used for PCT if hCG is also used.

Using AI's when they are not needed can lead to extremely low estrogen, which can cause the following side-effects -
Ultimately, this hurts your long and short term recovery and does not benefit you. Don't forget, normal levels of estrogen are necessary to support libido, muscle recovery, and testicular function.



Improper use of hCG


Using hCG after the cycle is the least effective way to use hCG.

You see, when you're on steroids, your brain cuts off the signal to the testes, and your testes stop producing testosterone. Once this happens, your testes shutdown, start to shrink, and become unresponsive to stimulation from the brain (essentially, the testes become desensitized). This is the reason why alot of guys never recover from a steroid cycle even after using tons of hCG and SERM's -- because the testes have stayed inactive for too long and have become permanently desensitized.

Here are a list of problems you can have from waiting untill the end of a cycle to use hCG -
For a fast and quick recovery of testosterone production after a cycle, you must avoid the long-periods of suppression. Once your testes go unused for too long, it is virtually impossible to get them to come back full strength, no matter how much hCG you take. For more detailed information on testicular degeneration of testicular function during a steroid cycle, see this article.



hCG during cycle - The Proper use of hCG


For any cycle longer than 6 weeks, you need to get your hands on some hCG and use it during the cycle. A small dose will keep the testes running as normal during cycle, so they can jump back on track when the cycle is over. Plus, when you use hCG during the cycle, you don't need to use it for PCT.

On-cycle hCG forces your testes to continue producing testosterone as they normally would. The trick with on-cycle hCG use is to avoid using too much, too frequently (which can also desensitize your testes the same as not using any at all!). It’s important to use just enough to stimulate the testes to produce the same amount of testosterone they would normally.

Check out the simple hCG dosing guidelines -


* Every 4 days = Shoot on Monday, then on Friday, then on Tuesday, ect.

† AI - Aromatase Inhibitor (While taking 1000iu shots, I recommend 10mg/ED of Aromasin or .5mg/ED Arimidex to keep estrogen in control. Legal alternatives include Formasol and Arom-X which are also effective aromatase inhibitors. Discontinue AI 4 days after last hCG shot.)

If you are doing the on-cycle hCG protocol it is important to discontinue hCG 2 weeks prior to AAS clearance. Therefore, when you officially start PCT you will be clean of all AAS's and will be 14 days from your last hCG shot. This allows your testes to become re-sensitized to the body's LH signal from the brain, making for a quick recovery of natural testosterone production as soon as the steroids and hCG clear the system. This is another reason why on-cycle hCG is superior, because it allows you to start recovering as soon as PCT begins.

If you aren't doing hCG on-cycle, then use hCG according to the "last 2 weeks or after the cycle" guidelines, and start it 4-5 weeks before the AAS's are expected to clear the system (Or as soon as possible if you are already past this point).

For AAS clearance times, see the table in the last section.



The Perfect PCT

Since SERMs can help stimulate testosterone production, we will allow them in our PCT, but at a much lower dose that what most “forum gurus” suggest. The goal with SERM’s is to dose them for maximum benefit with minimal side-effects, and only use them when they are necessary. If your cycle is longer than 6 weeks, and you are not running hCG during the cycle, then I recommend a SERM during PCT in combination with the Testosterone Recovery Stack (TRS) -- A completely legal, natural, tried & true PCT stack. (about to be discussed)

I recommend the following SERM’s, in order of most to least desirable –
Toremifene – 40mg/day
Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) – 10mg/day
Clomid (Clomiphene) – 25mg/day
As I mentioned above, hCG should be used for any cycle longer than 6 weeks. If you follow the proper hCG protocol, then it will be much easier to recover for PCT, and the TRS alone will be sufficient for recovery. However, if hCG was not used, then you will likely benefit from stacking one of the above listed SERM’s with the TRS. (since you will need all the help you can get)

The TRS has proven to be so safe & effective, that guys are shunning Clomid and Nolvadex every chance they get and using the TRS alone for PCT. Hundreds of testimonials and dozens of blood tests from real life customers have proven the Testosterone Recovery Stack to be just as effective as a SERM for PCT, but without the side effects. For those that may want additional support for PCT, the TRS stacks synergistically with low responsible doses of SERMs. (Just checkout the PCT Stacking Guideline table below)

So what exactly is the TRS?



The main product in the TRS is the legendary Sustain Alpha -- a natural testosterone boosting topical cream.

It's no surprise that Sustain Alpha is the foundation of the TRS. It’s powerful active ingredients are pulled through the skin and straight to the blood stream with our advanced topical delivery formula. Once in the blood, they are carried to the brain – right where they start triggering the testes to produce testosterone like a fountain of youth.

Speaking of the triggering testosterone production; How does Sustain Alpha work?

The main ingredients in Sustain Alpha – resveratrol and 7,8-benzoflavone – are natural anti-estrogens. However, both of these compounds have proven to be more like estrogen balancers as blood tests have revealed that Sustain Alpha can raise estrogen if it is too low or lower estrogen if it is too high – therefore offering the ideal solution for virtually any individual.

You see, a little estrogen is a good thing. Too low of estrogen can reduce libido, inhibit recovery, and hurt heart health by raising bad cholesterol. (a typical side-effect of using pharmaceuticals like Arimidex or Aromasin which can overly suppress estrogen levels as I mentioned earlier)

So the question is…

If Sustain Alpha isn't significantly inhibiting estrogen, then how exactly is it significantly increasing LH, FSH and natural testosterone levels?

Before jumping into the science let me give you a brief background on hormone production -


Basic Hormone Production
The Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis (HPTA)

In a normal healthy male luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) are sent from the brain (the pituitary) to stimulate the testes to make testosterone and sperm.

The release of LH & FSH from the pituitary is stimulated by Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is stimulated to produce GnRH when it senses low levels of testosterone and estrogen. (hypothalamus [GnRH] --- > pituitary [LH & FSH]--- > testes [testosterone])


On the other hand, when the brain detects high levels of testosterone and estrogen it suppresses the release of GnRH, LH & FSH, and eventually testosterone production. This is called the negative feedback loop – the normal daily rhythm of hormone production.

Traditionally, boosting LH & FSH to stimulate testosterone involved the use of a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) to directly block estrogen at the receptor (eg, Clomid & Nolvadex) or inhibition of estrogen formation by blocking the aromatase enzyme with aromatase inhibitors (eg, ATD, 6-bromo, formestane, Aromasin, Letrozol, ect).



Now on to the science on what makes Sustain Alpha so unique...

Recently, it has been found that the main ingredient in Sustain Alpha – the naturally occurring flavone 7,8-Benzoflavone -- increases testosterone production by preventing the negative feedback of testosterone and estrogen on the hypothalamus through GABAergic modulation.

That's right, GABAergic modulation, but please let me explain before jumping out of your seat.

As you may know, γ-amino-butyric acid (GABA) is an inhibitory neurotransmitter known to play an important role in sleep, learning, memory and pain sensation. In fact, GABA supplements are often used to promote relaxation and sleep. However, the GABAergic system is a tremendously complex family of receptors which interact not only with GABA, but hundreds of other neuro-active chemicals all throughout the body.

The important thing to understand here is that GABA and GABAergic transmission are two separate things.

With that in mind, researchers are just beginning to understand how the GABAergic system regulates the hypothalamus and GnRH secretion.

So far, it's been established that there is no androgen receptor (AR) or estrogen receptor (ER) on GnRH releasing neurons. This is fascinating, because it means that steroid hormones such as testosterone and estrogen must communicate with GnRH neurons through intermediaries. Meaning, steroid hormones must signal the release of certain neurotransmitters to suppress GnRH secretion in the hypothalamus. One of the neurotransmitter systems involved in this communication process is the GABAergic system.



As you can imagine, if the neurotransmitters can be blocked or antagonized, then suppression from steroid hormones can be reduced or possibly eliminated. By blocking the suppression, this allows the hypothalamus to continue secreting GnRH, thus allowing the testes to continue pumping out testosterone like they never missed a beat!

7,8-benzoflavone is a neuro-active flavone that reaches the hypothalamus and binds to the GABAergic receptors that modulate GnRH release. In fact, animal studies have already shown 7,8-benzoflavone can prevent the drug related decline in LH, FSH and testosterone production. By interacting with the GABAergic receptors, 7,8-benzoflavone is able to offset hypothalamic suppression of GnRH from steroid hormones.

We realized the incredible potential of this flavone, and recently increased the concentration of 7,8-benzoflavone by 15% in the newest 5.0 formula. Now, Sustain Alpha is more potent than ever.

So what does this mean for a guy wanting to boost testosterone?

This means LH & FSH levels can be boosted quickly and effectively without overly suppressing estrogen and sacrificing overall health. This means Sustain Alpha is perfect for any PCT, or any male wishing to optimize his "male performance" with higher testosterone levels. This also means that Sustain Alpha is unlike anything else on the market.

Yet, there is one factor that will keep you from getting maximum gains from Sustain Alpha, and that is testicular sensitivity.

Let me explain…

No matter how much LH & FSH the brain secretes, the testes won't secrete testosterone if they are desensitized to LH & FSH. (remember, this can happen from too much, or not enough LH & FSH stimulation)

Therefore, maintaining testicular sensitivity is critical, and this is precisely what Toco-8 was designed for.



Toco-8 is a powdered tocotrienol supplement proven to increase testicular sensitivity. When taken with Sustain Alpha, a powerful synergy occurs. By increasing testicular sensitivity, Toco-8 makes Sustain Alpha 3-4x more effective, thus allowing the body to produce more testosterone than it ever could before. Research has also proven that Toco-8 can increase the effectiveness of hCG by the same mechanism. Consider Toco-8 the beginning of a great testicular awakening – critical for a strong testosterone response to LH & FSH stimulation.

The final piece of the TRS is cortisol control.

Cortisol is a nasty stress hormone that can breakdown muscle tissue and reduce the ability of the body to produce testosterone. This is especially bad during PCT when getting testosterone levels up as quickly as possible is the #1 goal.

For reducing the damaging effects of cortisol we created EndoAmp.



Each serving of EndoAmp gains a scientifically proven 800mg dose of phosphatidylserine (PS). This is the exact same dose used in human clinical trials to suppress cortisol, raise testosterone and prevent muscle breakdown. PS is a very important naturally occurring phospholipid which helps reduce stress related catabolism and cortisol release.


Recap


Take hCG during the cycle if your cycle is over 6 weeks (follow the guidelines above for hCG dosing).

For PCT, use the TRS, which includes the testosterone surging Sustain Alpha, the testicular sensitizer Toco-8, and the cortisol blocker EndoAmp. Stack this with a low dose SERM if desired (see stacking guidelines below).

To make things easy just follow the below table for when to discontinue AAS’s prior to PCT -


Then follow this table for PCT -

* Toremifene is the #1 perferred SERM, followed by Nolvadex, followed by Clomid.

Notes:

Apply Sustain Alpha anytime of the day, after a shower. Use 5 days on, 2 days off.
Take Toco-8 anytime during the day with or without food.
Take 2 scoops of EndoAmp after workouts or in the morning on non-workout days.
Make no mistake, the TRS is one of the most powerful testosterone simulating stacks on the market, but don’t take my word for it. Jump on Google or any major bodybuilding forum and put in a search for the above products -- you will see they are the real deal, backed by thousands of positive reviews from actual users.

I’d like to thank you for reading the Official PCT for 2009 and supporting Primordial Performance!

Yours in health & fitness,

Eric Potratz
Primordial Founder & President

Questions?

Phone – 1-800-568-2924
Email - info@primordialperformance.com
Visit - Primordial Performance


Posted by: dg806

Great info Eric. Especially on the HCG advice. Agree 100%


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by dg806 View Post
Great info Eric. Especially on the HCG advice. Agree 100%
Glad to hear. Thank you!

-Eric


Posted by: RoosterTX

So if this is my cycle:

Sustanon 250mg 1ml every four days 5250 mg total (making my last injection the last day of week 12)
Deca 200mg 1ml every seven days 2000 mg total (last injection in week 10)
D-bol 35mg/day first 28 days
Nolva 10mg/day
250iu hCG every 4 days (starting day 14 correct?)

The sustanon should still be active through 3 weeks after the last injection. At what point do I stop injecting the 250iu of hCG?

Then on the first day of week 16, 17, 18 I inject 1000iu of hCG and take only 10mg of nolva, and no clomid which I had planned on.

Could you also speak to why you reccomend such low doses in the pct, most of the information I have read suggests 5000, 5000, 1000 or 2000, 2000, 1000.

Any help you can offer would be much appreciated.


Posted by: juggernaut

what makes this better than nolva, clomid and torem?


Posted by: Pirate!

Great article!

Personally, I see no problem running small doses (250-500iu hCG) until day 1 of PCT. Better to start SERMs early than late.


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterTX View Post
So if this is my cycle:

Sustanon 250mg 1ml every four days 5250 mg total (making my last injection the last day of week 12)
Deca 200mg 1ml every seven days 2000 mg total (last injection in week 10)
D-bol 35mg/day first 28 days
Nolva 10mg/day
250iu hCG every 4 days (starting day 14 correct?)

The sustanon should still be active through 3 weeks after the last injection. At what point do I stop injecting the 250iu of hCG?

Then on the first day of week 16, 17, 18 I inject 1000iu of hCG and take only 10mg of nolva, and no clomid which I had planned on.

Could you also speak to why you reccomend such low doses in the pct, most of the information I have read suggests 5000, 5000, 1000 or 2000, 2000, 1000.

Any help you can offer would be much appreciated.

You would take your last hCG dose about a week after your last Sustanon dose. You won’t need the 1000iu of hCG at the end of the cycle if you do the 250iu E4D during the cycle.

High doses are for men who have been suppressed for many months or years. You don’t need this much if you have normal functioning testes. (such as at the beginning of a cycle) On-cycle use is about prevention, so you don’t need to use as much.

Please read this article for more info on hCG –
Proper use of hCG with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids - AAS


-Eric


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
what makes this better than nolva, clomid and torem?
The TRS could be considered much safer and similar in effectiveness to nolva, clomid or toremifene for restoring the HPTA. However, stacking a SERM with the TRS does have a synergistic effect if you want the most effective PCT possible.

-Eric


Posted by: RoosterTX

If I take the nolva at 10mg per day for three weeks after the sustaton has cleared the system, should I still aviod taking the hCG? From what I gleaned from your article, and I may have this all wrong, I should not be taking the SERMs without hCG. Could you clarify?

Thank you for taking the time to consider my inquiries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Primordial View Post
The TRS could be considered much safer and similar in effectiveness to nolva, clomid or toremifene for restoring the HPTA. However, stacking a SERM with the TRS does have a synergistic effect if you want the most effective PCT possible.

-Eric



Posted by: egodog48

Great writeup! Very nice!


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterTX View Post
If I take the nolva at 10mg per day for three weeks after the sustaton has cleared the system, should I still aviod taking the hCG? From what I gleaned from your article, and I may have this all wrong, I should not be taking the SERMs without hCG. Could you clarify?

Thank you for taking the time to consider my inquiries.
You don’t need to be taking hCG with SERM’s or vise versa.

The only time you need to take something with hCG is when you have to run high doses after a cycle and then I would suggest an AI. But since you ran hCG during the cycle, then you should totally stop the hCG about 2 weeks before PCT starts. You want the hCG to clear your system so your testes can start resensitizing to your body's own LH & FSH signal.

-Eric


Posted by: the nut

Would adding A-dex be overkill?


Posted by: RoosterTX

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primordial View Post
You don’t need to be taking hCG with SERM’s or vise versa.

The only time you need to take something with hCG is when you have to run high doses after a cycle and then I would suggest an AI. But since you ran hCG during the cycle, then you should totally stop the hCG about 2 weeks before PCT starts. You want the hCG to clear your system so your testes can start resensitizing to your body's own LH & FSH signal.

-Eric
Are you advocating taking nothing for the PCT.

(for me that is)


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by the nut View Post
Would adding A-dex be overkill?
For what?

The only time I would recommend Adex is during hCG use or a heavy T dose.

-Eric


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterTX View Post
Are you advocating taking nothing for the PCT.

(for me that is)
I recommend 10mg/day nolva, stacked with the TRS for atleast 30 days, preferably 60 days.

Since you are going to run hCG during the cycle, you wont need it for PCT.

-Eric


Posted by: the nut

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primordial View Post
For what?

The only time I would recommend Adex is during hCG use or a heavy T dose.

-Eric

600mg prop / week - 14 weeks

Have always run nolv, hcg, a-dex, vit e for post cycle..... always work great as far as I can tell.


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by the nut View Post
600mg prop / week - 14 weeks

Have always run nolv, hcg, a-dex, vit e for post cycle..... always work great as far as I can tell.
Running hCG during the cycle will work better for you, along with .25mg Adex.

Nolva can still be ran for PCT along with the TRS. It will help elevate your natural testosterone & GH levels for faster recovery and more retention of your gains.

-Eric


Posted by: Pirate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by the nut View Post
600mg prop / week - 14 weeks

Have always run nolv, hcg, a-dex, vit e for post cycle..... always work great as far as I can tell.
I've done PCT with Adex and without. It's really not necessary, especially when coming off short esters. If you were coming off long esters, I'd recommend running the Adex for 2-3 weeks after last injection. I wouldn't advice running the PCT quoted above. The idea of PCT is to restore homeostasis. I don't see this happening with that mix. However, you would probably feel fine because your T production would be high. After PCT is over, you would then begin to "recover" your "natural" T production. Therefore, the protocol you have been using would delay recovery.


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate! View Post
I've done PCT with Adex and without. It's really not necessary, especially when coming off short esters. If you were coming off long esters, I'd recommend running the Adex for 2-3 weeks after last injection. I wouldn't advice running the PCT quoted above. The idea of PCT is to restore homeostasis. I don't see this happening with that mix. However, you would probably feel fine because your T production would be high. After PCT is over, you would then begin to "recover" your "natural" T production. Therefore, the protocol you have been using would delay recovery.
Yep, good advice.

Basically, you would want to run any AI you where running during the cycle until the AAS clear the system.

-Eric


Posted by: the nut

Maybe, I should be more specific. Here was my initial PCT plan for this cycle.

Weeks 1-14 600mg Prop (Proviron and Nolv on hand if needed)
Week 12 & 13 HCG 1500 IU; .5mg A-dex EOD
Week 14 HCG 1000 IU; .5mg A-dex EOD
Week 15 HCG 1000 IU; .5mg A-dex EOD; 50mg Nolv ED; 1000iu Vit-E ED
Week 16 .5mg A-dex EOD; 50mg Nolv ED; 1000iu Vit-E ED
Weeks 17-18 .5mg A-dex EOD; 25mg Nolv ED; 1000iu Vit-E ED

I had Gyno on a cycle only once before, but that shit freaked me out.

I have 8 weeks left, should I just start the HCG now?


Posted by: Pirate!

Yes, I'd start HCG now and discontinue after your last shot of prop. Better to do 500 iu every 5 days than 1000 iu in one shot. If you're using adex on cycle, no need to use nolva until pct--which should start within a few days after your last T shot.

If your T ends week 14, your hcg should stop and nolva start week 15. If you want to run some Adex for the first two weeks of pct, I'd say that's fine.


Posted by: the nut

OK, Thanks..... I usually cut the hcg with basoteric, and break it up into a couple shots a week. Gonna start the HCG now, and I'll go with TRS and Nolv for PCT. Am I just wasting my time with Vit-E?


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by the nut View Post
OK, Thanks..... I usually cut the hcg with basoteric, and break it up into a couple shots a week. Gonna start the HCG now, and I'll go with TRS and Nolv for PCT. Am I just wasting my time with Vit-E?
If you are going to get the TRS, you wont need the Vit E. (The toco-8 is a far superior form)

-Eric


Posted by: the nut

OK


Posted by: aasuser30

great post.


Posted by: LAGear

So if I'm using TRS for PCT of Havoc (4 weeks) you would recommend Toremifene 40mg/day if I decide to use a SERM... But with or without the SERM you do not recommend an AI, so I don't need anything like Formex or Reservitol on hand even if I end up heavily suppressed?

Couple of other questions unrelated to PP products, but I guess not off topic since this is the "official PCT" thread.

If I use a SERM is AI Post Cycle Support redundant during PCT?

A lot of people advocate running AI Cycle Support on cycle and during PCT. My question is if Cycle Support it redundant in PCT if I'm using TRS and/or SERM and/or Post Cycle Support?

On cycle is something like Liv.52 redundant if I'm using Cycle Support?

Thanks!


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAGear View Post
So if I'm using TRS for PCT of Havoc (4 weeks) you would recommend Toremifene 40mg/day if I decide to use a SERM... But with or without the SERM you do not recommend an AI, so I don't need anything like Formex or Reservitol on hand even if I end up heavily suppressed?

Couple of other questions unrelated to PP products, but I guess not off topic since this is the "official PCT" thread.

If I use a SERM is AI Post Cycle Support redundant during PCT?

A lot of people advocate running AI Cycle Support on cycle and during PCT. My question is if Cycle Support it redundant in PCT if I'm using TRS and/or SERM and/or Post Cycle Support?

On cycle is something like Liv.52 redundant if I'm using Cycle Support?

Thanks!
You wont be heavily suppressed if you use the TRS for PCT. (especially after only a 4 week epi cycle)

You want to avoid the steroidial AI’s for PCT… they will eventually become counterproductive.

The Cycle Support stuff is fine to take during PCT. Its mostly just a liver/blood pressure sup that could really be used with any PCT. (I would choose either Liv52 or Cycle Support… not both)

-Eric


Posted by: LAGear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primordial View Post
You wont be heavily suppressed if you use the TRS for PCT. (especially after only a 4 week epi cycle)

You want to avoid the steroidial AI’s for PCT… they will eventually become counterproductive.

The Cycle Support stuff is fine to take during PCT. Its mostly just a liver/blood pressure sup that could really be used with any PCT. (I would choose either Liv52 or Cycle Support… not both)

-Eric
This may be a ridiculously stupid question but is there such thing as a non-steroidal AI and is there any point in using one?


Posted by: Pirate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAGear View Post
This may be a ridiculously stupid question but is there such thing as a non-steroidal AI and is there any point in using one?
Yes and yes.


Posted by: LAGear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate! View Post
Yes and yes.
Can I bother you to elaborate?

Primordial says steroidal AI are counterproductive. Are you saying non-steroidal AI's are helpful and not counterproductive? Specifically with respect to four week Havoc cycle...

Can you identify some non-steroidal AI's for me? The AI's I know of are Novedex, Formex, Reservitol, 6-oxo and probably some others that don't come to mind at the moment. But I have no idea which are steroidal/non-steroidal.

Thanks.


Posted by: Pirate!

Arimidex is non-steroidal whereas Aromasin is not. Steroidal AI's probably shouldn't be used post-cycle. None of this applies to a 4 week cycle of Havoc, as strong AIs are not helpful when you will already have low estrogen.


Posted by: LAGear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate! View Post
Arimidex is non-steroidal whereas Aromasin is not. Steroidal AI's probably shouldn't be used post-cycle. None of this applies to a 4 week cycle of Havoc, as strong AIs are not helpful when you will already have low estrogen.
My question was if non-steroidal AI's should be used post-cycle. But if "none of this applies" then I'll assume I'm OK without either type of AI. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

And I assume I still don't need an AI even if I don't use a SERM. I've read a lot of people say if you don't use a SERM then you need an AI, but if I can safely complete PCT without a SERM or AI that would be fine with me.

Am I right in understanding that AI's can be the cause of delayed gyno that people sometimes get after completing PCT?

Thanks for all the info.


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAGear View Post
My question was if non-steroidal AI's should be used post-cycle. But if "none of this applies" then I'll assume I'm OK without either type of AI. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

And I assume I still don't need an AI even if I don't use a SERM. I've read a lot of people say if you don't use a SERM then you need an AI, but if I can safely complete PCT without a SERM or AI that would be fine with me.

Am I right in understanding that AI's can be the cause of delayed gyno that people sometimes get after completing PCT?

Thanks for all the info.
He is saying that you wont need any kind of AI for PCT because you wont have estrogen to suppress after running the Havoc.

Even if you use a SERM, you really shouldn’t need an AI…. There is nothing wrong with a little estrogen.

And yes, AI’s (especially non-steroidial AI’s) will cause an estrogen rebound that can sometimes lead to gyno if you are prone.

-Eric


Posted by: LAGear

I really, REALLY appreciate all the help. But I've made a change to my cycle. Instead of Havoc I'm going to run H-drol. There are just too many possible side effects from Havoc/Epi. It's considered mild but from all the complications I've read about (even with proper support and PCT) I'm disinclined to take chances. H-drol sounds like it's even more mild but still effective. I better start with that.

So I assume I can run the same support and PCT (including TRS) with H-drol but I'm wondering if an AI needs to be part of the game plan now.

I am so sick of learning and researching. I've probably spent close to 100 hours in the last month educating myself. It's going to be such a relief when I finally start my cycle!

Speaking of that, I'd like to start my cycle next week. Am I going to run into trouble if I don't run liver support before my cycle? A lot of people recommend that but I'm wondering if it's necessary with something as mild as H-drol.


Posted by: lola1182

great information on this thread. the PCT information was great especially the hcg info. this should be a sticky!!!


Posted by: thane22

very good read, thanks for the info.


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAGear View Post
I really, REALLY appreciate all the help. But I've made a change to my cycle. Instead of Havoc I'm going to run H-drol. There are just too many possible side effects from Havoc/Epi. It's considered mild but from all the complications I've read about (even with proper support and PCT) I'm disinclined to take chances. H-drol sounds like it's even more mild but still effective. I better start with that.

So I assume I can run the same support and PCT (including TRS) with H-drol but I'm wondering if an AI needs to be part of the game plan now.

I am so sick of learning and researching. I've probably spent close to 100 hours in the last month educating myself. It's going to be such a relief when I finally start my cycle!

Speaking of that, I'd like to start my cycle next week. Am I going to run into trouble if I don't run liver support before my cycle? A lot of people recommend that but I'm wondering if it's necessary with something as mild as H-drol.

Milk thistle for the liver is a good healthy choice… although I don’t think you “need” it.

-Eric


Posted by: RoosterTX

Eric,

could you inform me as to the appropriate daily dose and schedule for taking milk thistle?


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterTX View Post
Eric,

could you inform me as to the appropriate daily dose and schedule for taking milk thistle?
No schedule on this stuff… I would just take the recommended dose of whatever the bottle says.

I sometimes munch on milk thistle seeds… like as a food… they arnt going to harm you.

-Eric


Posted by: Stewart14

question for eric:

if one were to do a cycle of ironmag labs 1-andro rx, could the TRS be used as the sole source of PCT, and could it be does by using the sample chart you provided earlier in the thread?

Is the whole PCT thing as simple as finishing up your prohormone cycle, and then just using the products according to their dosing schedule and all would be fine?

Also, is it imperative (or recommended but not necessary) to have bloodwork done before and after a prohormone cycle, and what would you be looking for with the blood work?

thanks a lot!


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart14 View Post
question for eric:

if one were to do a cycle of ironmag labs 1-andro rx, could the TRS be used as the sole source of PCT, and could it be does by using the sample chart you provided earlier in the thread?

Is the whole PCT thing as simple as finishing up your prohormone cycle, and then just using the products according to their dosing schedule and all would be fine?

Also, is it imperative (or recommended but not necessary) to have bloodwork done before and after a prohormone cycle, and what would you be looking for with the blood work?

thanks a lot!
Yes, the TRS would be sufficient for the 1-andro PCT, especially if you keep the cycle 6 weeks or less.

If you wanted to get blood work, I’d recommend just checking total T and E2 right before the cycle, which is what are basic blood kits test for –

Home Testosterone & Estradiol Blood Test

Then test again about 2 weeks after PCT to make sure everything is back to baseline.

I wouldn’t say its imperative with a cycle like 1-andro though (which is fairly safe and mild).

BTW, are you throwing the TRS up on your blog!?

-Eric


Posted by: Stewart14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primordial View Post
Yes, the TRS would be sufficient for the 1-andro PCT, especially if you keep the cycle 6 weeks or less.

If you wanted to get blood work, I’d recommend just checking total T and E2 right before the cycle, which is what are basic blood kits test for –

Home Testosterone & Estradiol Blood Test

Then test again about 2 weeks after PCT to make sure everything is back to baseline.

I wouldn’t say its imperative with a cycle like 1-andro though (which is fairly safe and mild).

BTW, are you throwing the TRS up on your blog!?

-Eric
thanks for the quick response. What do you mean by throwing it on the blog? you mean mentioning it? I haven't updated that blog in ages! ha. Of course, if I go ahead with some sort of cycle and I get any kind of decent results, I would definitely make mention of the products I was using without a doubt. which leads me to another question for you if you don't mind...
I was reading a journal from january of this year where you had a special for the HMS for $150. Are you planning on doing something like that again anytime soon, and if you are, is the 1-T product similar to the 1-andro product? Only thing is since it is a cream, is it safe to use with a newborn in my house? how much of a risk it is to the baby?


Posted by: chronicelite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primordial View Post
Yes, the TRS would be sufficient for the 1-andro PCT, especially if you keep the cycle 6 weeks or less.

If you wanted to get blood work, I’d recommend just checking total T and E2 right before the cycle, which is what are basic blood kits test for –

Home Testosterone & Estradiol Blood Test

Then test again about 2 weeks after PCT to make sure everything is back to baseline.

I wouldn’t say its imperative with a cycle like 1-andro though (which is fairly safe and mild).

BTW, are you throwing the TRS up on your blog!?

-Eric
Do you offer this to canadian residents? I doubt there is any such laws that prohibit collecting of specimens for canadians.


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart14 View Post
thanks for the quick response. What do you mean by throwing it on the blog? you mean mentioning it? I haven't updated that blog in ages! ha. Of course, if I go ahead with some sort of cycle and I get any kind of decent results, I would definitely make mention of the products I was using without a doubt. which leads me to another question for you if you don't mind...
I was reading a journal from january of this year where you had a special for the HMS for $150. Are you planning on doing something like that again anytime soon, and if you are, is the 1-T product similar to the 1-andro product? Only thing is since it is a cream, is it safe to use with a newborn in my house? how much of a risk it is to the baby?
Yeah… just curious about the blog… anything helps ;-)

We don’t have any plans for the HMS anytime in the new future. The 1-T could be considered similar to the 1-andro, but as a complete stack because of the balanced DHEA it contains.

If you are looking for something stronger (for more mass and strength gains) I would opt for the 1-T TREN.

You will have to avoid direct skin-to-skin contact with the newborn and the application site on your body. You will also have to keep the child out of the bed that you are sleeping on.

-Eric


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronicelite View Post
Do you offer this to canadian residents? I doubt there is any such laws that prohibit collecting of specimens for canadians.
The shipping pack included with the testing kit doesn’t ship to the US from Canada so you would have to pay for shipping to get your sample back to ZRT.

-Eric


Posted by: Primordial

FYI,

You can save $30 on the Testosterone Recovery Stack right now.

Just use the code MAXRECOVERY in the coupon field.

Valid only at Primordial Performance

-Eric


Posted by: Whatsaroid?

For any of you who havent tried it your going to love the Testosterone Recovery Stack I ordered and use so much of it its ridiculous. You would think I'm a rep how many coworkers I have on 1-T and the recovery stack.


Posted by: chronicelite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primordial View Post
The shipping pack included with the testing kit doesn’t ship to the US from Canada so you would have to pay for shipping to get your sample back to ZRT.

-Eric
So would I still be charged for the pre-paid postage to the US ? Or can you do a little something for my case? These economic times have me broke...


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronicelite View Post
So would I still be charged for the pre-paid postage to the US ? Or can you do a little something for my case? These economic times have me broke...
We have no flex on the shipping from Canada…. And the kits are already pre-packaged from ZRT. (We are just a vendor for them)

You could probably parcel the samples back for pretty cheap.

-Eric


Posted by: chronicelite

I'm glad there is a simple alternative to lab testing for post cycle hormone levels now. Thanks so much Primo!


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronicelite View Post
I'm glad there is a simple alternative to lab testing for post cycle hormone levels now. Thanks so much Primo!
No prob... thanks for supporting us.

-Eric


Posted by: Stewart14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primordial View Post
Yeah… just curious about the blog… anything helps ;-)

We don’t have any plans for the HMS anytime in the new future. The 1-T could be considered similar to the 1-andro, but as a complete stack because of the balanced DHEA it contains.

If you are looking for something stronger (for more mass and strength gains) I would opt for the 1-T TREN.

You will have to avoid direct skin-to-skin contact with the newborn and the application site on your body. You will also have to keep the child out of the bed that you are sleeping on.

-Eric
Eric....I decided to go with the 1-Andro product mostly because of the children issues. I was looking at the active ingedients of 1-T and it says it has 112.5mg of androsterone per 5 pumps along with the DHEA. Now, I have been taking 600mg of androsterone from the 1-andro product. Is there a reason why the difference is so big? Am I taking too much, or is this due to the fact that 1-T has better absorption because it is a lotion?


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart14 View Post
Eric....I decided to go with the 1-Andro product mostly because of the children issues. I was looking at the active ingedients of 1-T and it says it has 112.5mg of androsterone per 5 pumps along with the DHEA. Now, I have been taking 600mg of androsterone from the 1-andro product. Is there a reason why the difference is so big? Am I taking too much, or is this due to the fact that 1-T has better absorption because it is a lotion?
600mg/day is a good dose for oral 1-andro…. considering you have about 8% absorbed with the oral and about 35% absorbed with our topical.

-Eric


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primordial View Post
FYI,

You can save $30 on the Testosterone Recovery Stack right now.

Just use the code MAXRECOVERY in the coupon field.

Valid only at Primordial Performance

-Eric
This deal is runnin till monday... dont miss out...

-Eric


Posted by: REXORE

Im going to be starting my cycle on tuesday of Pentadex 300 for 12 weeks. Its my first ever cycle what should my PCT look like?


Posted by: Primordial

Hey guys… this is the last day of the sale… get your order in by Monday at midnight (the 25th) if you want to save $30 bucks on the Testosterone Recovery Stack!

Remember, the code is MAXRECOVERY… just enter it into the coupon field at Primordial Performance

-Eric


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by REXORE View Post
Im going to be starting my cycle on tuesday of Pentadex 300 for 12 weeks. Its my first ever cycle what should my PCT look like?
You should run hCG during that cycle and do 40mg/day toremifene with the Testosterone Recovery Stack for 6-8 weeks after the cycle.

-Eric


Posted by: Primordial

Also, raloxifene at 120mg/day seems to be a good alternative to toremifene... while possibly being safer.

-Eric


Posted by: ironro

Eric,

Why do you start the HCG so long after starting the cycle?


Posted by: Primordial

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironro View Post
Eric,

Why do you start the HCG so long after starting the cycle?

2 weeks?

That time allows the sensitivity to build up, but past that point the sensitivity would begin to decrease.

-Eric


Posted by: Primordial

The Testosterone Recovery Stack is 30% off right now... Thats only $85 for a full 30-day PCT.

But only until tomorrow night at midnight. (27th at 12:00am)

-Eric


Posted by: Primordial

Ironmag Members,

The Testosterone Recovery Stack sale is here again!

Right now you can save $30 on the Testosterone Recovery Stack.

Just enter the coupon "MAXRECOVERY" into the coupon field.

Sale only available at Primordial Performance

Valid until 10/14/09






Posted by: Primordial

A few more days on this sale...

-Eric


Posted by: Primordial

FYI, the new Oral Sustain Alpha Liqua-Vade is here -

Sustain Alpha Liqua-Vade

Lasts 30 days (2x doses per day) and is upto 3x stronger than the previous topical version.

-Eric







bodybuilding diet | bodybuilding workouts | bodybuilding supplements | muscle building | burn body fat | build muscle




vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.


Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.1.0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36