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Training around a back injury

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Posted by: RoosterTX

Edit:
This thread has been summarized here:. Read the individual posts to see the discussion.

_______________________________

So I've tried numerous times to start a thread dedicated to training with a low back injury. Specifically I have a herniated disc in the L4 L5 region with sciatic symptoms on the left side.

For a good while I had tried to continue incorporating squats and deadlifts into my p/rr/s, and other routines.

It's just not working out. So I thought I might find some help in designing my leg abs and back day workouts

I am able to do DB squats, and in truth I like them more than BB as they seem more compound (recruiting the traps, delt, forearms, etc). I also seem to do well by split squat (lunges) with DBs. My primary concern for DB squats is the form. I end up with my arms wide out at my sides, which involves a good deal of upper body tension, and then moving through the squat motion.

I'm somewhat at a loss for what to do for my lower posterior chain, primarily QL, Deads are out, and to a certain extent hypertensions aren't that fantastic for me either.

For Back I feel very comfortable with the following:

Seated rows
Lat Pull downs
Reverse grip pull downs
all variations of chin and pull ups

I feel less comfortable with:

DB Rows
BBRows



For legs I feel very comfortable with:

DB Squats (aside from the issue of what form to use)
DB Split squats
Leg curls
All kinds of calf raises

For Abs:

I am most comfortable doing cable knee tucks
also standing oblique crunches with DB

Generally anything that really loads up the spinal column or requires weighted flexion I would prefer to avoid if possible.

Any additional advice on what exercises might be a good addition would be much appreciated.


Posted by: largepkg

Single leg DB lunges will work the posterior nicely. Keep your back upright and flat and you should be fine.


Posted by: RoosterTX

Is there a double leg DB lunge? Is there a difference between db split squat and db lunge?


Posted by: IainDaniel

double leg would be a squat

Lunge requires you coming back to feet beside each other.

Split squat your feet stay in the seperated position


Posted by: P-funk

Since I am not there and don't know your specific case, I'll be general and tell you the recommendations I give my clients with disc pathologies:

1) Take out flexion based exercise - crunches, bilateral deadlifts, bent over rows, exercises performed in a seated position (seated rows, seated pulldowns, etc).

2) Work on stability - planks, side planks, 1-leg glute bridge (hug the other knee towards the chest), half kneeling chops and lifts, dead bugs, bird dogs, etc..

3) For upper body pull movements get off the seated exercises. Instead, do things like standing 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm pulldowns, inverted rows

4) Train the legs with unilateral movements - split squats, step back lunges, step ups, 1-leg/1-arm RDL, lateral lunge - make sure to perform the exercises properly to develop effective movement patterns/strategies that are spine sparing and allow for proper hip movement.

5) Work on hip mobility. Spare the spine by developing proper hip mobility (this is something I just talked about in my blog). Typically people compensate for crappy hip mobility (and crappy ankle mobility) by increasing lumbar mobility. We want lumbar stability!

6) Don't do things that hurt.

7) When performing stability exercises like planks, don't get all caught up in trying to hold a 60sec side plank. If you don't develop proper endurance in those muscles first, then you will compensate in order to try and hold the plank for that length of time and the form will go to hell. Instead, use short holds and do reps. So, side planks for 5 could holds for 5 reps and slowly work up from there. Build endurance.

8) Use the foam roller on your hips to help clean up poor tissue quality and enhance movement.

hope that helps.

patrick


Posted by: RoosterTX

Would this be a good start for hip and ankle mobility? I do a number of these things already.
7 Dynamic Stretches to Improve Your Hip Mobility | StrongLifts.com
How to Improve Your Ankle Mobility | StrongLifts.com

Seated movements don't really hurt. Could I utilize them? I can't find a good example of half-kneeling pulldowns or rows.

I can't do 1leg RDLs on the left side (which is symtompatic) without pain.

What can I do to strengthen my lower back besides various planks and holds, which I already do?


Posted by: P-funk

Those are some good mobility drills.

I don't know where videos of 1/32 kneeling pulldowns or rows are. I know I have included them in my ebook.

I would stay away from the seated work, even if it doesn't really hurt.

If the 1-leg RDls hurt on the symptomatic side, then do not do them. Stick with the 1-leg glute bridge and the single leg split squats until your symptoms calm down.

Planks, 1/2 kneeling chops and lifts, and bird dogs are all great exercises for developing strong abdominal brace. The error most people make is thinking that they need to "strengthen the lower back" with some special exercises. The lumbar spine gains stability by learning how to brace and then integrating that brace into movements (split squats, lunges, etc...) without having to think about it. I invite you to revisit your form, as most people do not do planks (especially side planks) properly and they do not perform the proper progressions of the movement.

patrick


Posted by: RoosterTX

One note side to side leg swings on the left side (symptomatic) aggrevate the sciatica. To a LESSER extent so do regular leg swings on the left side.

What movements could I replace these with?

Any good links for proper form on side planks and planks?

I realize I don't know enough about the movements of the body, at least to formulate a good recovery plan on my own, and was thinking of working with a good team.

Could you vet these guys (know anything about them?) if not I understand and thank you for your help.

Next Level Sports Performance, physical therapy, sports medicine, Denver, Colorado


Posted by: P-funk

I could see the leg swings firing you up. You may need some neural flossing, but that is not for me to decide via the internet.

I don't have any good videos of planks or the progressions I use, sorry.

I have never heard of those guys either. That doesn't mean they aren't good. I just have never heard of them.

patrick


Posted by: RoosterTX

could you explain the proper progression for planks please?


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterTX View Post
could you explain the proper progression for planks please?
wall w/rotation
prone on the knees
side plank on the knees
prone on the toes
side plank on the toes
prone w/rotation to side to side
prone with leg lift
prone with arms on stability
prone with arms on stability ball with leg lift
prone with toes on stability ball
prone with toes on stability ball with leg lift
side plank with hip abduction
side plank with feet elevated
side plank with feet elevated w/hip abduction

obviously the side plank and the prone stuff may be going on simultaneously on different days of the program. Those are just some progressions I have listed down, but usually I don't use most of the (lol). Typically if they can hold the prone plank, the side plank and then perform the rotation from prone to side properly, we can move on to other exercises. If they still want/need (psychological reasons) to do their "core" bull shit, I let them do the other nonsense - but I would rather have them on their feet doing some real exercises after that point.

patrick


Posted by: Built

Now, I am rarely motived purely out of altruism, and this particular problem affects ME (grade 1 anterolisthesis of L5-S1, and now a herniated disc in my neck).

What I would like to have spelled out for me is how to incorporate these movements into something like P/RR/S or BGB or some other split that calls for heavy low rep work.

In particular, I'd like to know how sprinting could work under this limitation, since for example in my case at least, sprinting doesn't aggravate my back injuries - and sprinters got some killer wheels!

I'm specifically interested in hypertrophy for quads and hams, so I am talking about a caloric surplus - just so we're clear.

So, for example, BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - has four days:

Horizontal push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 bench
5x5 T-bars
3x8 lncline dumbbell bench
3x8 one arm dumbbell rows
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps)
5x5 back squats
3x8 front squats
3x12 walking lunges
(optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps)

Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 weighted chins
5x5 millies
3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns
3x8 Oly bar corner press
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps)
5x5 RDLs
3x8 GHRs
3x12 front squats
(optional 12 rep stuff for hams, optional triceps)

If heavy squats and deads are out, how could this be adapted to encourage the wheels?

I'm thinking sprints could work in here somewhere, and high rep squats - sprinters and speed-skaters' legs are HUGE so they must be doing SOMETHING right!


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
Now, I am rarely motived purely out of altruism, and this particular problem affects ME (grade 1 anterolisthesis of L5-S1, and now a herniated disc in my neck).

What I would like to have spelled out for me is how to incorporate these movements into something like P/RR/S or BGB or some other split that calls for heavy low rep work.
This is a pretty loaded question. You would have to take into account the injury of the individual and where they currently are with regard to pain and function. For example, some people will have disk problems that may limit the individuals ability to move properly (or moving may cause pain), creating atrophy and decrease in strength. So, it is on a case by case basis.

That being said, there are many people who have had herniated disks, spondy's, stenosis and other various back pathologies and can still go workout and lift (and some even can still play pro sports). A lot of it has to do with properly training and knowing what you can and cannot do. The purpose of training should be to make yourself better.

Quote:
In particular, I'd like to know how sprinting could work under this limitation, since for example in my case at least, sprinting doesn't aggravate my back injuries - and sprinters got some killer wheels!
If sprinting doesn't bother you, then great. It may bother others though, so again, this is a case by case basis.

I guess I'll just run through the program below and make some recommendations.


Quote:
I'm specifically interested in hypertrophy for quads and hams, so I am talking about a caloric surplus - just so we're clear.

So, for example, BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - has four days:

Horizontal push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 bench
5x5 T-bars
3x8 lncline dumbbell bench
3x8 one arm dumbbell rows
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)
This day should be okay with those who have back pain. I'd just substitute the t-bar tows with one of the other variations I had above. The 1-arm DB rows may need to be substituted if they produce pain as well.


Quote:
Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps)
5x5 back squats
3x8 front squats
3x12 walking lunges
(optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps)
This is where things may get "dicey" for someone who is in back pain. The back squats will have to be dropped. Some can still do front squats; however, many have pain with any sort of loading like that, and if I am working with a client I just drop it all together because I would rather be safe than sorry.

Variations in split squats, lunges, and step ups are fine. If you are seeking hypertrophy, work on performing slow eccentrics and even an isometric pause in the bottom of the movement. This will allow you to develop tension without having to load up insane amounts of weight. In addition, you can work on sets of 4-6 reps, just increase weight and still perform the controlled eccentrics.


Quote:
Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 weighted chins
5x5 millies
3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns
3x8 Oly bar corner press
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)
What are millies?

This day looks fine and just swap anything out if it gives you pain.


Quote:
Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps)
5x5 RDLs
3x8 GHRs
3x12 front squats
(optional 12 rep stuff for hams, optional triceps)

If heavy squats and deads are out, how could this be adapted to encourage the wheels?
Same type of scenario here as the previous leg day. I like the 1-arm/1-leg RDL, but even that flexion movement may prove to be painful for people. If you can do it and it feels okay, then go with it. Again, single leg movements and control the eccentric. Initially start with loads you can handle and slowly work up over weeks and you can increase to doing lower reps.

Just because you can't squat or deadlift or perform them heavy does not mean that you can't have hypertrophy or strength. It just means that you have to adjust your training based on your limitations.

For example, I have a friend (a physical therapist actually) who has had some significant disc herniations in his lumbar spine. But, he is still strong, he still plays hockey, still has huge legs and he still trains hard. His training program is just different than it used to be. He no longer does back squats or deadlifts. He front squats, but never for maxes and never under 5 reps. He still does power cleans and DB snatches. And everything else he does is lunges or step ups - split squats, lateral lunges, walking lunges, step ups, bulgarian split squat, etc.

You have to adjust the program for you.

Quote:
I'm thinking sprints could work in here somewhere, and high rep squats - sprinters and speed-skaters' legs are HUGE so they must be doing SOMETHING right!
If the sprinting doesn't bother you, then go for it.

Patrick


Posted by: Built

Thank you for this Patrick. Much obliged.

Millies are military press. I generally do standing push presses because I don't like to do seated shoulder work.

What kind of volume would you recommend given the lighter weights being lifted?

For instance, suppose I can do 3x8 back squats with 165 and 3x8 fronts with a plate a side, but my back goes out and I'm unable to do anything heavier than 95 lb fronts.

For the sake of this thread (okay because this applies to me personally, sue me...) let's also assume that GHRs are okay but regular or single leg RDLs are not. SHELC and leg curls are possible, also hypers but not single leg.

How would I set up my leg days with higher-rep fronts, the above movements and some sprints to stimulate hypertrophy?

What would my quad dominant leg day look like?
ie reps, sets, movements

How about my ham dominant leg day? Or would I do both leg days basically the same?


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
Thank you for this Patrick. Much obliged.

Millies are military press. I generally do standing push presses because I don't like to do seated shoulder work.

What kind of volume would you recommend given the lighter weights being lifted?

For instance, suppose I can do 3x8 back squats with 165 and 3x8 fronts with a plate a side, but my back goes out and I'm unable to do anything heavier than 95 lb fronts.
Okay, that is a good question. So 95lbs for front squats is your "limit" at the moment. You can increase the sets and perform the same reps (IE, 4x8, 5x8, etc). You can also keep the reps low (3-5) and perform more sets (IE, 8x4, 10x4, etc...). The slowing down of the eccentric and the hold at the bottom will also make things more difficult and create more fatigue then just doing straight sets, so all things are not created equal. From there, as you feel more comfortable, you may be able to raise the weight slowly. Initially though, you may not be able to get away with doing the front squats right out of the gait.

Quote:

For the sake of this thread (okay because this applies to me personally, sue me...) let's also assume that GHRs are okay but regular or single leg RDLs are not. SHELC and leg curls are possible, also hypers but not single leg.
Stick with what you can do. Remember, it is case by case. Your workout may be something like bulgarian split squat (or front squat), GHR, and hypers (if those don't bother you - some people hate these).


Quote:
How would I set up my leg days with higher-rep fronts, the above movements and some sprints to stimulate hypertrophy?

What would my quad dominant leg day look like?
ie reps, sets, movements

How about my ham dominant leg day? Or would I do both leg days basically the same?
Could be something like this:

Quad dominant Day
1) Front Squat - 3count eccentric/1-count isometric - 5x6
2) Lateral lunge - 3x8
3) SHELC - 3x12

I would actually do my sprints 1st and then lift (or sprint on a different day).

Ham dominant Day
1) Step up - 5x6ea leg
2) Glute Ham - 3x8
3) Hypers (since they don't bother your back) - 3x12



patrick


Posted by: Built

Yes!! This was what I was after!

Now, for the sprints, these are obviously not HIIT. I do dynamic warmup for sprints - so after the dynamic warmup, what would you suggest for the sprints and rests? How many sprints, how long and how long for the rests? I'm thinking of them like "sets", so 15-20 seconds (roughly equivalent to 5-8 rep sets going by Poliquin's "time under tension"), then a minute or two active rest (slow walking), perhaps 5 or 6 sprints like this - then the rest of the leg work?

Thoughts?


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
Yes!! This was what I was after!

Now, for the sprints, these are obviously not HIIT. I do dynamic warmup for sprints - so after the dynamic warmup, what would you suggest for the sprints and rests? How many sprints, how long and how long for the rests? I'm thinking of them like "sets", so 15-20 seconds (roughly equivalent to 5-8 rep sets going by Poliquin's "time under tension"), then a minute or two active rest (slow walking), perhaps 5 or 6 sprints like this - then the rest of the leg work?

Thoughts?
I thought you would ask that (lol).

That is good that they are not HIIT sprints. People always talk about sprinters and their physique but fail to recognize that sprinters don't do interval training the way that people think. They sprint, then rest for awhile, then sprint again. It isn't 30sec work:30sec rest or anything like that.

For example, if you look in my journal (on my site), on wed., we did all our sprinting first and then our deadlifts. Our warm up was about 20min of activity centering around some dynamic mobility drills and 100m strides. Then, we did some subamximal 30m sprints to get the legs prepared. Then we were ready. We alternated sets of weighted 30m accelerations (low weight) and un-weighted 30m accelerations. Trying to accelerate up to the 20m mark (established by a cone) and then maintain that pace for the final 10m. We did 3 weight sprints and 3 unweighted sprints (6 total) and then we did a variety of medicine ball throws. Then we went inside and worked on some deadlifts and called it a day.

I would do something similar. 15-20min. on non-stop activity for warm up, mixing in dynamic drills (body weight squats, lunges, various stretches held for 1-2sec, etc) and 100m strides (very low intensity and keep loose). Then, perform some sprints (20-40m), but they don't have to be all out 100% max effort. 90-95% (submax sprints) are fine and make sure you are working on good technique. You can take full rest in between the sets (3-5min) or do some walking or light activity, but nothing to strenuous. I would do anywhere from 5-8 sprints and then go lift.

Something along those lines.


Patrick


Posted by: Built

Muah! This is EXACTLY what I've been looking for. Thanks HEAPS!


Posted by: Built

Summarizing this thread - for non-specific disc pathologies (that's "a bad back" for the humans), Performance Coach and Licensed Massage Therapist Patrick Ward gives the following broad recommendations based on what he gives his clients with these types of injuries.

Obviously, since he is not there and does not know your specific case - please see a health care professional for your specific concerns.

Patrick Ward:
  1. Don't do things that hurt. (MariAnne's note: I moved this to the top - for everything that follows, obviously if it hurts YOU, don't do it.)
  2. Take out flexion based exercise - crunches, bilateral deadlifts, bent over rows, exercises performed in a seated position (seated rows, seated pulldowns, etc) even if it doesn't really hurt. (MariAnne's note: I have a lower spine problem myself and had to make the switch to standing. It only sucks at first; once you re-learn how to stabilize yourself while standing, you'll never want to go back as you will find you need to do less direct ab work than you once thought!)
  3. Work on stability - planks, side planks, 1-leg glute bridge (hug the other knee towards the chest), half kneeling chops and lifts, dead bugs, bird dogs, etc.
  4. For upper body pull movements get off the seated exercises. Instead, do things like standing 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm pulldowns, inverted rows
  5. Train the legs with unilateral movements - split squats, step back lunges, step ups, 1-leg/1-arm RDL, lateral lunge - make sure to perform the exercises properly to develop effective movement patterns/strategies that are spine sparing and allow for proper hip movement. If the 1-leg RDLs hurt on the symptomatic side, then do not do them. Stick with the 1-leg glute bridge and the single leg split squats until your symptoms calm down.
  6. Work on hip mobility. Spare the spine by developing proper hip mobility (this is something I just talked about in my blog). Typically people compensate for crappy hip mobility (and crappy ankle mobility) by increasing lumbar mobility. We want lumbar stability!

    These are some good mobility drills:
    7 Dynamic Stretches to Improve Your Hip Mobility | StrongLifts.com
    How to Improve Your Ankle Mobility | StrongLifts.com

    I have included 1/2 kneeling pulldowns and rows in my ebook. (MariAnne's note: Patrick Ward's ebook "Take Charge! Everything You Need to Know to Write Your Own Training Program" is an excellent value for the thirty bucks. I highly recommend it to anyone, even if you are already a fairly experienced lifter. I'm dealing with a variety of injuries right now, and believe me when I say prehab is preferable to rehab!)
  7. When performing stability exercises like planks, don't get all caught up in trying to hold a 60sec side plank. If you don't develop proper endurance in those muscles first, then you will compensate in order to try and hold the plank for that length of time and the form will go to hell. Instead, use short holds and do reps. So, side planks for 5 could holds for 5 reps and slowly work up from there. Build endurance.

    Planks, 1/2 kneeling chops and lifts, and bird dogs are all great exercises for developing strong abdominal brace. The error most people make is thinking that they need to "strengthen the lower back" with some special exercises. The lumbar spine gains stability by learning how to brace and then integrating that brace into movements (split squats, lunges, etc...) without having to think about it. I invite you to revisit your form, as most people do not do planks (especially side planks) properly and they do not perform the proper progressions of the movement.

    For example:
    • wall w/rotation
    • prone on the knees
    • side plank on the knees
    • prone on the toes
    • side plank on the toes
    • prone w/rotation to side to side
    • prone with leg lift
    • prone with arms on stability
    • prone with arms on stability ball with leg lift
    • prone with toes on stability ball
    • prone with toes on stability ball with leg lift
    • side plank with hip abduction
    • side plank with feet elevated
    • side plank with feet elevated w/hip abduction

    Obviously the side plank and the prone stuff may be going on simultaneously on different days of the program. Those are just some progressions I have listed down, but usually I don't use most of the (lol). Typically if they can hold the prone plank, the side plank and then perform the rotation from prone to side properly, we can move on to other exercises. If they still want/need (psychological reasons) to do their "core" bull shit, I let them do the other nonsense - but I would rather have them on their feet doing some real exercises after that point.
  8. Use the foam roller on your hips to help clean up poor tissue quality and enhance movement.

Working this into an existing split that calls for heavy low rep work, we need to define the parameters.

In my case, I have anterolisthesis of L5 over S1, and a herniation in my c-spine.

Ordinarily, I can back squat 165 lbs in 8-rep sets, and front squat 135 for 8-rep sets, but when my back bugs me I'm down to 95 lbs for fronts, and backs are out of the picture. Interestingly, I CAN usually sprint - so I'd like to work these into my training somehow, and not just the HIIT-type fat loss stuff.

I can usually count on being able do the following:
Front squats with 95 lbs
GHRs
Walking lunges
Sprints
Lateral lunges
SHELC
Step up
Glute Ham Raises
Hypers
Sprints

The question is how to create intensity in these movements so as to stimulate hypertrophy.

Patrick Ward: So 95lbs for front squats is your "limit" at the moment. From there, as you feel more comfortable, you may be able to raise the weight slowly. Initially though, you may not be able to get away with doing the front squats right out of the gate.
I generally do a dynamic warmup before I do sprint work, but they're usually for fat-mobilization, not hypertrophy. This is a different application. For THESE sprints, I'm not going for HIIT-type intervals - this isn't to mobilize FFAs, but rather to promote muscle-growth. I'm thinking of it as a sub for heavy hamstring work, and that means reps and sets, with rest in between. Using Poliquin's "Time Under Tension" as a general guideline, I'm thinking something like 20-second sprints with a minute or two recovery between "sets", or sprints.
Patrick Ward: People always talk about sprinters and their physiques but fail to recognize that sprinters don't do interval training the way that people think. They sprint, then rest for awhile, then sprint again. It isn't 30 sec work:30 sec rest or anything like that.

For example, if you look in my journal (on my site), on wed., we did all our sprinting first and then our deadlifts. Our warm up was about 20min of activity centering around some dynamic mobility drills and 100m strides. Then, we did some subamximal 30m sprints to get the legs prepared. Then we were ready. We alternated sets of weighted 30m accelerations (low weight) and un-weighted 30m accelerations. Trying to accelerate up to the 20m mark (established by a cone) and then maintain that pace for the final 10m. We did 3 weight sprints and 3 unweighted sprints (6 total) and then we did a variety of medicine ball throws. Then we went inside and worked on some deadlifts and called it a day.

I would do something similar. 15-20min. on non-stop activity for warm up, mixing in dynamic drills (body weight squats, lunges, various stretches held for 1-2sec, etc) and 100m strides (very low intensity and keep loose). Then, perform some sprints (20-40m), but they don't have to be all out 100% max effort. 90-95% (submax sprints) are fine and make sure you are working on good technique. You can take full rest in between the sets (3-5min) or do some walking or light activity, but nothing to strenuous. I would do anywhere from 5-8 sprints and then go lift.

Something along those lines.
Spelling this out in detail for BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - here's what we came up with:

Horizontal push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 bench
5x5 T-bars ** sub in chest-supported T-bars or other movement you can tolerate, such as motorcycle rows or inverted rows AKA "fat man pullups"
3x8 incline dumbbell bench
3x8 one arm dumbbell rows **sub in one-arm cable rows if these bother you
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps)
Instead of:
5x5 back squats
3x8 front squats
3x12 walking lunges
(optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps)

Do this:
Dynamic warmup
5-8 Sprints - see above for details

Front Squat - 3-count eccentric/1-count isometric hold - 5x6
Lateral lunge - 3x8
SHELC - 3x12
(optional bicep work)

Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 weighted chins
5x5 millies
3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns
3x8 Oly bar corner press
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps)
Instead of this:
5x5 RDLs
3x8 GHRs
3x12 front squats
(optional 12 rep stuff for hams, optional triceps)

Do this:
Dynamic warmup
5-8 Sprints - see above for details

Step ups - 5x6 ea leg
Glute Ham Raises - 3x8
Hypers or reverse hypers (since they don't bother my back) - 3x12


Posted by: P-funk

I should say, this is all very general information. If you are dealing with back problems, be sure to get checked out by a professional to determine what you should and should not be doing. If you are coming back from a back injury and starting to train again, seek out a professional (preferably a knowledgeable trainer) who can assess you and help you formulate a concrete plan. Part of that plan may start with learning how to re-groove movement patterns (as McGill would say) and slowly develop proper control and awareness.

Patrick


Posted by: Built

Noted - this one is more specific to MY needs since, well, I asked!

Thank you Patrick.

Oh - any problem with doing the sprints twice a week like that - should I vary how I do them if I do them twice in a week?


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
Noted - this one is more specific to MY needs since, well, I asked!

Thank you Patrick.

Oh - any problem with doing the sprints twice a week like that - should I vary how I do them if I do them twice in a week?
You can do them twice a week on leg day.

Do your tempo work on upper body days.

patrick


Posted by: Built

"tempo" work?


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
"tempo" work?
Yea, submaximal conditioning/work capacity stuff.

For example, since we are talking about sprint training, you would have your sprint days, which are +90% (but not maximal for speed or distance), which are done on your leg days.

The tempo work would be on your upper body days. For example, it may be something like tempo runs at a low intensity (<75% intensity) and you may do something like 200m tempo run, followed by a walk recovery, and repeat. Or, you may do a low volume of longer distance tempo work, like say, 3x600m tempo runs with active recovery, again at <75%. The reason that the tempo work is below 75% is to ensure that you are not sapping your nervous system so that you can adequately work on your speed/sprint days. The speed work is over 90% because anything below 90% (in that 75-85% range) is too slow to be considered speed work and to fast to be considered tempo work (or speed endurance work), so it will just burn you out.

Other things you can do for tempo work may be something like rowing intervals, bike intervals (if those don't bother your back) or, I like to use either KB snatches or KB swings (can use DBs if you want) for something like 15sec work:15sec rest for a set amount of time.

Those are just some ideas. So many ways to set up a training program though.

patrick


Posted by: Built

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
Yea, submaximal conditioning/work capacity stuff.

For example, since we are talking about sprint training, you would have your sprint days, which are +90% (but not maximal for speed or distance), which are done on your leg days.

The tempo work would be on your upper body days. For example, it may be something like tempo runs at a low intensity (<75% intensity) and you may do something like 200m tempo run, followed by a walk recovery, and repeat. Or, you may do a low volume of longer distance tempo work, like say, 3x600m tempo runs with active recovery, again at <75%. The reason that the tempo work is below 75% is to ensure that you are not sapping your nervous system so that you can adequately work on your speed/sprint days. The speed work is over 90% because anything below 90% (in that 75-85% range) is too slow to be considered speed work and to fast to be considered tempo work (or speed endurance work), so it will just burn you out.

Other things you can do for tempo work may be something like rowing intervals, bike intervals (if those don't bother your back) or, I like to use either KB snatches or KB swings (can use DBs if you want) for something like 15sec work:15sec rest for a set amount of time.

Those are just some ideas. So many ways to set up a training program though.

patrick
Hence your book. LOL!

Okay - I sometimes do hill repeats. Something like that could work here I suppose, right?

I do them as a walk - me and jogging don't get along too well - on a treadmill, at an incline.
(warmup at low grade for a minute or so)

4 minutes at 10%
1 minute at 5%

4 minutes at 11%
1 minute at 5%

etc until I max out the treadmill at 15%.

(Cooldown at low grade for a minute or so)

How about complexes - too much for this?

For the tempo runs - most of the time, I'll be doing these on a treadmill, so how long would these be - like, 40 seconds for the shorter tempo work, and maybe 90 seconds for the longer ones? How many and how many?

And would I do the tempo work at the end of my lifting? I'm thinking I'd be kinda sapped if I did 'em first.


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
Hence your book. LOL!

Okay - I sometimes do hill repeats. Something like that could work here I suppose, right?

I do them as a walk - me and jogging don't get along too well - on a treadmill, at an incline.
(warmup at low grade for a minute or so)

4 minutes at 10%
1 minute at 5%

4 minutes at 11%
1 minute at 5%

etc until I max out the treadmill at 15%.

(Cooldown at low grade for a minute or so)

How about complexes - too much for this?

And would I do the tempo work at the end of my lifting? I'm thinking I'd be kinda sapped if I did 'em first.
Yea, that incline walking is fine. I would do it at the end of the training day on upper body day - so lift first, then do the incline walking.

complexes can work if they are kept submaximal and don't interfere with the sprinting and leg day.

patrick


Posted by: Built

Cool - so I could do hills for one of 'em, and complexes for the other. Excellent. Probably do the complexes for the first one, since they're more taxing than the hills.

I unfortunately edited before you replied. I added a question regarding the "tempo runs". How many of each length, and do I have the interval time about where you were thinking?


Posted by: P-funk

The time can be whatever you set it at. Sometimes I do my tempo work as 60sec run:90sec walk for 20min, as an example.

patrick


Posted by: Built

Cool.

You're the bomb!


Posted by: nkira

KABOOM!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built View Post
Cool.

You're the bomb!



Posted by: RoosterTX

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
Yea, submaximal conditioning/work capacity stuff.

For example, since we are talking about sprint training, you would have your sprint days, which are +90% (but not maximal for speed or distance), which are done on your leg days.

The tempo work would be on your upper body days. For example, it may be something like tempo runs at a low intensity (<75% intensity) and you may do something like 200m tempo run, followed by a walk recovery, and repeat. Or, you may do a low volume of longer distance tempo work, like say, 3x600m tempo runs with active recovery, again at <75%. The reason that the tempo work is below 75% is to ensure that you are not sapping your nervous system so that you can adequately work on your speed/sprint days. The speed work is over 90% because anything below 90% (in that 75-85% range) is too slow to be considered speed work and to fast to be considered tempo work (or speed endurance work), so it will just burn you out.

Other things you can do for tempo work may be something like rowing intervals, bike intervals (if those don't bother your back) or, I like to use either KB snatches or KB swings (can use DBs if you want) for something like 15sec work:15sec rest for a set amount of time.

Those are just some ideas. So many ways to set up a training program though.

patrick
Are you advocating doing sprints and also lifting legs on the same day?


Posted by: RoosterTX

I know this isn't a training log and i don't plan to hijack the thread and use it as one but...

I figured for the next three weeks I would post my leg workouts, how it felt on the disc (I have a herniated disc l5 S-1), and how it was in terms of intesity.

05-05-09

Squats (rest was about 1:30-2):

10X135
8X185
8X185
8X185
8X185
8X185
6X205
6X205
4X215
4X215

5 sets of the following:
10 single leg ham curls (65 lbs hammer strength)
20 seated calf raises (85lbs)

Felt good. No back pain beyond the usual today. Pretty sore.


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterTX View Post
Are you advocating doing sprints and also lifting legs on the same day?
that's what it says.


patrick


Posted by: ironman4

My brother has a similar back injury.
I will be sure to point him to this thread


Posted by: Just_Moe

Patrick thanks for taking your time with such a detailed answer! I appreciate you knowledge being shared as well as the fact you are not all ego DO WHAT I SAY .Very professionally worded and delivered.
I am fortunate enough to have a copy of Take Chargeso I will be able to see what you are talking about in regards to the exercises you mentioned. (for those of us who are visual learners and just read this page as "words, words, words"

I will be back to the gym in 8 weeks for lower work and the information you gave me here actually motivates me more to seek out my PT crew to help me with the hip mobility vs spine mobility. My hips are almost locked into a crooked position which is either a result of the stenosis or the cause? Hypothetical thoughts here?


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Moe View Post
Patrick thanks for taking your time with such a detailed answer! I appreciate you knowledge being shared as well as the fact you are not all ego DO WHAT I SAY .Very professionally worded and delivered.
I am fortunate enough to have a copy of Take Chargeso I will be able to see what you are talking about in regards to the exercises you mentioned. (for those of us who are visual learners and just read this page as "words, words, words"

I will be back to the gym in 8 weeks for lower work and the information you gave me here actually motivates me more to seek out my PT crew to help me with the hip mobility vs spine mobility. My hips are almost locked into a crooked position which is either a result of the stenosis or the cause? Hypothetical thoughts here?
"Locked in a crooked position", as in hip flexion (anterior tilt)?

It could be a chicken or an egg thing. Unfortunately, static posture doesn't always dictate dynamic capacity, so that may or may not be the cause of the issue. This is why having someone assess dynamic movement as well as static posture is helpful for making sense of the big picture. For all you know, the cause may just have been a significant amount of loading overtime, or something to that effect. At any rate, if your hips are "locked up" and hip mobility is impaired, then that is probably something that you are going to want to try and remedy, as the limitation may be leading to something more significant up the chain. Soft tissue work for the hip flexors can be very helpful and you can do some stuff to just treat yourself and improve tissue quality. Then follow that up with some lengthening and strengthening to develop better function and movement.

patrick


Posted by: RoosterTX

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
that's what it says.


patrick
How would you set up that days program?

Warm-Up/Dynamics-Sprint-Weights moving from one to the next, or would you structure in some kind of rest and recovery period? If so how long of a recovery period?


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterTX View Post
How would you set up that days program?

Warm-Up/Dynamics-Sprint-Weights moving from one to the next, or would you structure in some kind of rest and recovery period? If so how long of a recovery period?
huh? I thought I answered that in the previous few posts? Are you asking something different?

patrick


Posted by: Built

Rooster, it's all in the "summary" post http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/tr...ml#post1893467


Posted by: RoosterTX

I see that your progression was: warm-up/sprint work/lift. I'm wondering if you just move from one to the next, or whether you structure in additional rest (5-10 min or whatever) between the sprints and the lifts. I generally try to get out to a track to do my sprints, treadmills just don't work for me on sprint intervals, and the closest track is about 20 away from the facility where I weight train. If I do my sprints and lifts back to back I'm going to have a 20 minute car ride in between, plus 15 minutes of logistics. That being said might it be better to try and break the workouts in two, doing sprint work in the am and lifting in the pm, or should I be unconcerend by the 35 min cool-down car ride.

I'm sorry, I haven't been very clear about what it is that I'm getting at. Thanks your your help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
huh? I thought I answered that in the previous few posts? Are you asking something different?

"For example, if you look in my journal (on my site), on wed., we did all our sprinting first and then our deadlifts. Our warm up was about 20min of activity centering around some dynamic mobility drills and 100m strides. Then, we did some subamximal 30m sprints to get the legs prepared. Then we were ready. We alternated sets of weighted 30m accelerations (low weight) and un-weighted 30m accelerations. Trying to accelerate up to the 20m mark (established by a cone) and then maintain that pace for the final 10m. We did 3 weight sprints and 3 unweighted sprints (6 total) and then we did a variety of medicine ball throws. Then we went inside and worked on some deadlifts and called it a day."
patrick



Posted by: Built

Rooster, I'll defer to P-funk for this, but if I had to do it this way, I'd probably just sip a shake between locations. It's only 20 minutes.


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterTX View Post
I see that your progression was: warm-up/sprint work/lift. I'm wondering if you just move from one to the next, or whether you structure in additional rest (5-10 min or whatever) between the sprints and the lifts. I generally try to get out to a track to do my sprints, treadmills just don't work for me on sprint intervals, and the closest track is about 20 away from the facility where I weight train. If I do my sprints and lifts back to back I'm going to have a 20 minute car ride in between, plus 15 minutes of logistics. That being said might it be better to try and break the workouts in two, doing sprint work in the am and lifting in the pm, or should I be unconcerend by the 35 min cool-down car ride.

I'm sorry, I haven't been very clear about what it is that I'm getting at. Thanks your your help.
I see what you are saying.

Breaking them up between AM and PM is certainly a good option.

As for the 35min. of cooldown between the sprinting and the lifting, if you are going to do them in the same session like that, I would just make sure that you appropriately warm up and prepare yourself prior to lifting, following the cooldown. You can certainly sip a shake during the 35min. break, as built has suggested.

patrick


Posted by: Just_Moe

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
"Locked in a crooked position", as in hip flexion (anterior tilt)?

It could be a chicken or an egg thing. Unfortunately, static posture doesn't always dictate dynamic capacity, so that may or may not be the cause of the issue. This is why having someone assess dynamic movement as well as static posture is helpful for making sense of the big picture. For all you know, the cause may just have been a significant amount of loading overtime, or something to that effect. At any rate, if your hips are "locked up" and hip mobility is impaired, then that is probably something that you are going to want to try and remedy, as the limitation may be leading to something more significant up the chain. Soft tissue work for the hip flexors can be very helpful and you can do some stuff to just treat yourself and improve tissue quality. Then follow that up with some lengthening and strengthening to develop better function and movement.

patrick

I think it is a chicken/egg thing. My right hip is forced forward while my left hip is forced back so it is twisting of the hips actually ( I am broken LOL).
I have to work on tight hip flexors as well as recovery from the resulting damage to the spine and surrounding tissue.

Thanks a lot of this thread--and advice!


Posted by: P-funk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Moe View Post
I think it is a chicken/egg thing. My right hip is forced forward while my left hip is forced back so it is twisting of the hips actually ( I am broken LOL).
I have to work on tight hip flexors as well as recovery from the resulting damage to the spine and surrounding tissue.

Thanks a lot of this thread--and advice!
Damn, to bad you don't live closer. You sound like you would be a great case study for some of the things I have been checking out.


patrick


Posted by: Just_Moe

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-funk View Post
Damn, to bad you don't live closer. You sound like you would be a great case study for some of the things I have been checking out.


patrick

ahh if I had a dollar every time someone said I would be a good case study...








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