Interesting discussion.
The problem with attempting to build proof on the basis of existing studies is that it doesn't prove your assertion - it only provides fuel for your own research.
Now, I'm all for using something that works and proving it later. I'm not the first to do this - Newton did the same damned thing with Calculus (some would say Leibniz. These would be Germans - I am a Scot by ancestry and so I'll continue to claim it was Newton). There's a whole branch of mathematics that is concerned with proving the methodology Newton just went ahead and used, despite criticism from his contemporaries. Two hundred years later, Weierstrass, Cauchy and others developed the formal language required - the Real Analysis - to add rigour to the Calculus that came so long before them.
So yeah, I'm jiggy with "proof by real world observation". Sometimes, it's all we got.
Thing is, sometimes there's more than one way to get across the river, yanno? Bodybuilders have been getting themselves ripped to shreds for a loooong time, long before we had any studies about Akt pathways, gene expression, or catecholamine-induced overshoots of free fatty acids. For some, they just had such amazing genetics that ANYTHING worked. For others, they happened to hit upon the right combination of parlour tricks in the right sequence, much like the proverbial room full of monkeys with typewriters. Trying to reverse-engineer what worked in these circumstances is fraught with difficulty - not only because the typewriter in question might have been... "enhanced", but the monkey-keyboardist in question ain't talking.
None of this is of any particular interest to me though, because for some of us, "ordinary" bodybuilder-type diet and training protocols are so miserable as to be unlivable.
For example, my own board fell out of this problem. You can find a paradigm that is technically perfect on paper, but if I can't stick to it, it ain't optimal FOR ME, now, is it?
Kinda like broccoli - it's only good for you IF YOU EAT IT.
So while Broser may find as many ways to define and then slag keto diets as he does to say he's "finished with this discussion", his point has been rendered moot by the type of training he did at the time -
hypertrophy relies on a surplus of calories to ensure muscle-growth follows training-induced microtrauma. While operating under a significant deficit, the best you can hope for is to somehow convince the body to risk-manage existing resources. The strategy changes from that of muscle-growth, to that of muscle-retention.
Do this while you undereat a little, you'll starve off the fat because the body can't afford NOT to. Drop protein too low and/or overtrain while you do this, and you'll increase the cost of doing muscle.
Where is that magic point? Ah, now that's the tricky question. It varies. The genetic freaks get a way with a LOT more then the rest of us. Add steroids to the mix and the universe changes.
But to me, all of this is moot if it's too uncomfortable. I managed to get down to my profile pic without being more than peckish for parts of the day. I didn't overtrain and I didn't feel starved. If I could have kept more muscle on me some other way but felt like crap while I did it, I wouldn't have done it. Kinda nice that I didn't have to.
Ward doesn't like keto diets because they don't feel comfortable to him. To me, THAT is a very good reason not to do something.
The fact that Broser doesn't like keto diets for natural bodybuilders because he trained inappropriately on them, and then went on an abstract-hunt to prove his point is simply a flawed methodology. I mean, if you're going to slag something because you tried it, at least try it on the right way!
It's like durian. You know, the weird looking fruit that stinks like hell, tastes like heaven? Well, that's what I hear because I've never tried one. I'm waiting for someone who loves durian to get a really good one and then share it with me. If I still don't like it, at least I'll know I don't like it. If I pick one up at random and it's rotten, I might think I don't like it when in fact I just don't like rotten durian.
Broser tried a rotten durian. He then went looking for proof that durian isn't healthy for natural bodybuilders.
Ward just doesn't like fruit.
Originally Posted by Built 
The argument, er discussion is flawed in that you are comparing apples to oranges.
I snickered as I saw thumbing through the pages of MD about 4-6 steroid articles. They ARE needed, however, I dont think the magazine will ever go natty again-were they ever?
I wish you'll get migraine for that one!! Hahahaha.....