Two months post-Hdrol cycle blood work. [Forum Archive]

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Two months post-Hdrol cycle blood work.

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Posted by: Mags

I finished my H-drol/1-T cycle about two months ago.

I've had two sets of blood tests since. The latest saw these results:

Urea - slightly up
Creatinine - slightly up

Liver values - slightly up.
HDL cholesterol - just under average.
LDL cholesterol - just above average.

The top two results are down to a high-protein diet and CEE supplementation.

As for the elevated liver values, that was down to the high-dosed, long-cycled H-drol.

The second set of tests revealed these values had dropped a fair bit, but were still a little higher than usual - but at least they're heading in the right direction, though. I am going back in for some more tests in two weeks, so hopefully they'll be significantly lower or back to normal this time around.

My main concern, though, is the change in HDL and LDL. Before the cycle, I had a check-up and both levels were normal. Now, the 'good' HDL has dropped slightly and the 'bad' LDL has risen a bit. My diet hasn't changed significantly since being on the H-drol. My diet still comprises a lot of fibre and fruit and veg (although this part could be better) and the only foods I can see affecting the levels are the eggs (I have a bout two omelettes a week, both having 3 yolks and 6 whites. Having said that, I know many believe that eggs promote balanced cholesterol so I'm unsure as what to think on this one) and red meat (which I eat about 2-3 times a week - the mince is less than 5% fat).

This leaves me to summise that it was mainly the H-drol that has affected both my HDL and LDL. Is H-drol similar to Winny in that it can significantly affect one’s lipid profiles? Also, would carrying around an extra 30-odd lbs that I wasn't before have that much of a detrimental effect on these levels (I've only gained lean mass and my body fat percentage is pretty similar to what it was initially).

The only other factors I can think of is that I don’t do any cardio. I know this seems to be one of the reasons behind the change in levels, but I didn’t do a great deal of cardio beforehand, either. I did play 5-a-side football for 30 minutes on Monday nights (and did so while on cycle, too), but is lacking even that small duration of exercise - combined with potential faults in my diet – enough to mean it’s not solely the H-drol that caused these HDL/LDL fluctuations? If not, perhaps it’s the combination of the lot that's causing these alterations.

Any thoughts?
Cheers.

Posted by: Pirate!

Quote:

Is H-drol similar to Winny in that it can significantly affect one’s lipid profiles?

All oral steroids injur your lipid profile. What are the actual before and after HDL and LDL counts?

Posted by: Mags

I know this is careless, but I lost the results form at the start of the year, not long after having the tests done. I'm going to ask if I can get another copy from my doctor when I go on the 27th. All I can remember her saying, while summarising the results in the original pre-cycle tests, that my total cholesterol level was around 5 mmol/l (I think you guys have mg/dl in the US, therefore, I think that comes out about 90 mg/dl - which I was told was normal) To be honest, though, I'm not sure how useful this average is, and I know these results can be affected by factors that impinge their accuracy. As for the post-cycle results, I didn't get a copy (things seem to work a bit differently here in the UK when seeing your GP - either that, or I'm just not 'doing it' right), she just talked through each test saying how it had improved or worsened since last time. I will try and get specific numbers from all tests.

What's the deal with the lipid profile, then? Will it re-adjust itself over time, or is it screwed unless I alter my diet and training to get it back in synch? Or worse, is it permanently damaged?

Cheers.

Posted by: TrojanMan60563

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirate!

All oral steroids injur your lipid profile. What are the actual before and after HDL and LDL counts?

Can't raised t-levels in general cause changes in lipid profile? I was under the impression that even injectiable test cycles can alter things.

Posted by: Mudge

A "good" total score for cholesterol would be around 150-200, maybe your LDL was 90, that could be possible.

Posted by: Mags

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

A "good" total score for cholesterol would be around 150-200, maybe your LDL was 90, that could be possible.

I think 5 (90) is considered a 'good' total score if the blood test was taken after fasting/before a meal (which mine was). I think 8 (150) is considered the norm when the test is taken without fasting or after a meal. However, I'm not 100% sure on this sort of thing and am, therefore, totally reliant on what my GP tells me. I know my lack of data doesn't really help here, either.

Here is a small piece on mmol/l - mg/dl conversions and their respective levels:

What are mg/dl and mmol/l? How to convert? Glucose? Cholesterol?

As for the lipid profile, will it naturally return to normal or is it something I'll have to work on?

Cheers.

Posted by: Built

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mags

I know this is careless, but I lost the results form at the start of the year, not long after having the tests done. I'm going to ask if I can get another copy from my doctor when I go on the 27th. All I can remember her saying, while summarising the results in the original pre-cycle tests, that my total cholesterol level was around 5 mmol/l (I think you guys have mg/dl in the US, therefore, I think that comes out about 90 mg/dl - which I was told was normal) To be honest, though, I'm not sure how useful this average is, and I know these results can be affected by factors that impinge their accuracy. As for the post-cycle results, I didn't get a copy (things seem to work a bit differently here in the UK when seeing your GP - either that, or I'm just not 'doing it' right), she just talked through each test saying how it had improved or worsened since last time. I will try and get specific numbers from all tests.

What's the deal with the lipid profile, then? Will it re-adjust itself over time, or is it screwed unless I alter my diet and training to get it back in synch? Or worse, is it permanently damaged?

Cheers.

OnlineConversion.com - Cholesterol Converter

It's 193 in mg/dL

Eggs won't impact much on chol, but your carbohydrate consumption can, as can fructose. You might consider dropping carbs down quite low for a bit, drop a bit of bodyfat maybe.

(Also, I seem to recall creatinine can be high from intense training)

Posted by: TrojanMan60563

lipid profiles typically go back to normal on their own if your diet has not changed from pre-cycle.

150-200 total is what I hear is good. My current doctor said he likes to see under 150 now. I personally don't know what is medicine and what is fabricated. It seems like both cholesterol and blood pressure numbers have been changed in reguards to what is "ideal". Matter of fact they have changed a few times in my years of actually knowing better.

It would appear to me drug companies have great influences on what numbers are ideal to have. I personally view this as a method to get everyone, or the majority of people taking iether a blood pressure or cholesterol pill...and TOTALLY IRONICALLY they now have a pill that does both for you. Imagine that.

People die from heart related death with low pressure/cholesterol....even end up with clogged arteries with it as well...so I really think cholesterol/blood pressure ideal numbers is fabricated to some degree to make money. I am sure there is a line that can be drawn as what is not a healthy level, but I truly believe that everyone is not the same, and neither is our normal pressure/cholesterol numbers. I don't think a label can be used for everyone.

Anyways I would just get it checked again in 6-8 weeks if you are concerned. If diet has not changed it then its the supplements, and since you no longer take them, and assuming your diet is good the numbers will go back on their own.

Posted by: Mags

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

My carb intake has remained high since I increased them for the bulk/cycle in order to help maintain my gains. They've been 'clean' carbs from oats, rice, pototoes, pasta and fruit, but I've heard the sources of carbs aren't always the problem but rather the amount consumed. I've stopped taking the CEE for the moment to see if that makes much of a difference and perhaps I'll cut back on the carbs somewhat to see how I react to that.

Cheers.

Posted by: Hench

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Check out Mags pix, he aint got much body fat to drop!

Posted by: Built

Oooh, I'll go look!

Mags, since you're lean, you'll be fine. Keep your diet nice and tight, it should settle down to normal - you're not far off normal as it is, and 5 mmol/L isn't particularly high for a man anyway.

Posted by: Mags

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Oooh, I'll go look!

Mags, since you're lean, you'll be fine. Keep your diet nice and tight, it should settle down to normal - you're not far off normal as it is, and 5 mmol/L isn't particularly high for a man anyway.

Thanks guys, I'll keep on with the norm for the time being then. It will have been a little over a month since my last set of tests (and I have a week or so to wait for the next), so hopefully things will have improved this time around. I guess I shouldn't really be surprised at how the cycle affected my body, considering the dose and duration of the cycle. Hopefully things will be back to normal (whatever that is) soon enough. Fingers crossed.

Cheers.

Posted by: Built

Concentrate on the healthy fats, particularly fish oil and olive oil, and keep your fructose down as low as possible. This means watch it with the table sugar and the tree fruits. I'd keep carbs down somewhat lower than normal in general - keep the cals up with the healthy fats, I'm not talking about a cut here, just a shift in macros while you recover.

Posted by: Mags

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Concentrate on the healthy fats, particularly fish oil and olive oil, and keep your fructose down as low as possible. This means watch it with the table sugar and the tree fruits. I'd keep carbs down somewhat lower than normal in general - keep the cals up with the healthy fats, I'm not talking about a cut here, just a shift in macros while you recover.

I eat large portions of Salmon twice a week and use olive oil in pretty much everything

, but other than that, I'm not too clued up on healthy fats and where to get them from - I'll have a gander around the forum and google. I only have a teaspoon of sugar when I drink tea, but then I must have nearly 8-12 cups a day, so I might try and cut back on that, too.

Thanks again.

Oh, by the way, this is my 1000th post.

I guess you should get a prize or something, right?

Posted by: Built

Use splenda or dextrose for your tea for now. Healthy fat is what I listed, monounsaturated and fish oil.

I'd suggest upping the fish oil - I take 10 grams daily in addition to the fish I consume.

Other healthy fats would include raw nuts, natural peanut butter, and avocados. All excellent sources of healthy mono and polyunsaturated fat.

Posted by: Mags

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Use splenda or dextrose for your tea for now. Healthy fat is what I listed, monounsaturated and fish oil.

I'd suggest upping the fish oil - I take 10 grams daily in addition to the fish I consume.

Other healthy fats would include raw nuts, natural peanut butter, and avocados. All excellent sources of healthy mono and polyunsaturated fat.

Cheers.

Posted by: Built

I commented in your photo gallery. You look amazing!

Posted by: Mags

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

I commented in your photo gallery. You look amazing!

Thanks, I'm not looking too shabby in those pictures (although my face kind of lets them down)

. I was really pleased with the results from that cycle. I was 'in the zone' for 8 weeks - all I did was eat, sleep and train. In fact, I trained my ass off. To be honest, I didn't have a lot of faith at the start as I was cynical towards the 1-T (although its rave reviews were what led me to try it) purely because my experience with transdermals was zilch, and I'd heard H-drol was too 'mild' therefore not a good choice for bulking. However, I put on around 30lbs. The best thing is I've kept nearly all the size and power, too (give or take a few lbs). My conditioning, however (although I still have clear abs and obliques), is not as impressive as it was when on. But I guess that's obvious.

It was my attempt at a bulk, too. I was eating as much as I could (around 5000+ cals a day) and I was fortunate to gain a lot of size while losing fat. I had that bulky, rounded look the whole time on cycle, but not that puffy, fat look. I was very lucky to have kept my definition (and even improved it) while gaining size. The two compounds used have given my system a bit of a going over (which was to be expected), but I loved them and they worked wonders.

Posted by: workingatit43

Here is my bloodwork from my h-drol run last year it was 5 weeks at 75mg a day. Bloodwork was done the day after pct.

Posted by: Built

Okay, so your kidneys are working and your CBC looks good.

Hormones?

Edit - I fixed the image tags on the hormone panel.

Posted by: Built

Okay, total testosterone is at half mast, your lipids suck and your free testosterone is in the toilet. Did you get your bloodwork done again after that?

Posted by: Whatsaroid?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Okay, total testosterone is at half mast, your lipids suck and your free testosterone is in the toilet. Did you get your bloodwork done again after that?

I was thinking the same, to add what did you use for pct to fix this?

Posted by: TrojanMan60563

my test is near 900ish...My tests dont show the free test...I wonder if that is an issue? hmmm..next time maybe I should have both looked at...wonder why my doctor didn't do both?

Posted by: Built

A lot of them don't know. You need the free test levels measured. I wish men would get estradiol tested as well. Most doctors don't understand its significance, and only measure PSA.

Posted by: TrojanMan60563

yea eventually I will be in a position to do more regular in depth testing to find out how longs effect me etc... issue is here in US its not free, and my insurance doesn't pay for that stuff unless its regular stuff....basically I have to satisfy a copay before they do.

Posted by: Built

That sucks.

Personally, I wish I could find someone who could test drugs.

Posted by: Mags

Hell, my tests did not go that indepth at all.

The only things getting tested when I go back this time are Urea and Electrolytes, Liver function, Thyroid fucntion and random glucose.

I don't expect my Doctor to be up to speed with the lifestyle of a bodybuilder, but she didn't really take into account my input. I don't blame her, they're probably sick of overreacting patient's with self-diagnosis and I by no means am a doctor, but I knew more about the products I was taking than she did. She was looking up stuff on google! I explained that certain things had, almost certainly, been affected by the H-drol - that it was toxic to the liver, possibly suppressive of my natural test production, affected my lipid profile. I was hinting for her to give me the works when it came to what they'd test, but she seemed to overlook this and told me to just stop taking everything and to lower my protein intake.

It'd be good to have a doc that knew all about this sort of stuff and could give informed advice instead of the whole 'steroids will kill you' spiel.

Posted by: Built

Your doctor actually told you to cut back on your protein intake?

Did she say why?

Posted by: Mags

She said my urea levels were above average. I explained that I presumed it was because of a high protein turnover in my diet. She said that I should cut back a bit. I said I'd give it a go, but most modern western diets tend to be high-protein based, so thought she might be a bit out of touch. Again, I might sound like an idiot saying this as she's the doc and only trying to help me get back to 'normal'. I was also a little concerned why she seemed to be focusing on this rather than what I thought were the other, more important issues (But again, I'm no doc).

Posted by: Built

It could also just mean you're a bit dehydrated. Or slightly overtrained.

Overtraining in sport - Google Book Search

Posted by: Mags

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

It could also just mean you're a bit dehydrated. Or slightly overtrained.

Overtraining in sport - Google Book Search

Interesting read. I don't think it'd be dehyration as I drink water throughout the day and more during my workout (although that might not be enough). It might well be overtraining. Since I finished the cycle, I've been training with the same regime, with the same weights and trying to maintain the same intensity. However, the weight seems heavier (amounts of reps have diminished on last two sets) and I've needed longer to recover between sets. The feeling that I might be sick tends to get closer than before, too (leg and back workouts only). And the aches afterwards are worse. When on Hdrol, my body was good to go the next day, now it aches and feels like it needed a whole week to recover, which is why I've had a two separate weeks off in the eight or so weeks since I finished the cycle. It felt like I'd gone from Superman to Old man. I'm not surprised by any of this - I was on a prohormone cycle, after all - but it might signify possible overtraining, therefore the less-then-perfect state of my urea levels.

Cheers.

Posted by: Hench

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mags

Interesting read. I don't think it'd be dehyration as I drink water throughout the day and more during my workout (although that might not be enough). It might well be overtraining. Since I finished the cycle, I've been training with the same regime, with the same weights and trying to maintain the same intensity. However, the weight seems heavier (amounts of reps have diminished on last two sets) and I've needed longer to recover between sets. The feeling that I might be sick tends to get closer than before, too (legs and back only). And the aches afterwards are worse. When on Hdrol, my body was good to go the next day, now it aches and feels like it needed a whole week to recover, which is why I've had a two separate weeks off in the 8 or so weeks since I finished the cycle. I'm not surprised by any of this - I was on a prohormone cycle, after all - but it might signify possible overtraining, in turn affecting my urea levels.

Cheers.

Do you have any periodization in your program Mags?

Posted by: Mags

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

Do you have any periodization in your program Mags?

I used to do the Power/Rep/Shock regime which was good. However, I like to do solid stints where I'll stick to a specific regime for a few months. Then I'll change to another. I spend longer amounts of time sticking to certain regimes as it gives me a decent duration to get used to the new exercise (in that I can 'do it' properly, not as in my system gets used to it), to see some good progression in weight and to see the results in growth. I find that chopping and changing too often simply makes me do lots of different exercises with little in the way of growth or increases in strength. For example, if I did dumbell press one week, bench press the next and then Incline bench the one after, I'd only be doing dumbell press once every three weeks. So, by the time I'd come to do them again, I hadn't made that much progression from the time before and would find myself on the same weight for ages. This went for all my exercises. Also, alternating between high-reps and low-reps didn't do me much good, either. I know this flies in the face of bodybuilding logic, but I tend to get bigger and stronger by doing low reps of heavy weights with exercises I do regularly. Obviously this is only to an extent, then I change to a whole new regime. Although the reps stay low. Which, in the most long-winded answer ever, is how I've been training throughout my cycle and now (probably a bit more than 16 weeks): fixed regime, 8-4 reps ( I wanted to train the same as I did on cycle as part of my post-cycle maintenance to see if I could keep my strength as well as gains). It does seem time for a change in regime, though. I just hate the idea of, say, dropping dumbell rows for machine or cable rows and then when I try to do them again a few weeks down the line, not being able to do them as well.

Posted by: Hench

Sorry, I should have been clearer, program variation is one type of periodization, but I was asking if you have any sort of deload or submaximal weeks built into your program.

This is from an article on Gazhole's blog:

Linear periodization is generally a concept originally attributed to Leonid Matveyev, but has been adopted by many different authors and trainers worldwide. It’s basic principle is that training variations progress in a linear or straight manner throughout the course of the program.

For example, if you were progressing intensity in a linear fashion you may do one week at 4x6 @ 12rm (not very intense), followed by one week at 4x6 @ 10rm, then 4x6 @ 8rm (around the right intensity), followed by a final week at 4x6 @ 6rm (theoretically the max you can do for a single set of six reps) with the hopes of increasing your 6rm weight

This is essentially the concept of linear periodization. In a nutshell, over the course of the program a variable or cluster of variables will progress in a linear, predictable, way. This technique can be applied to any variable, but generally increases with difficulty over the course of the program.

As well as linear, there is also undulating periodization, this is a link to an article on P-Funks website:

Undulating Periodization

Building this type of periodization into your program allows your body to recover between heavy sessions and will lead to better gains.

Posted by: TrojanMan60563

Doctors are ignorant. My old doctor told me to stop taking whey protein that it was the cause of my elevated liver enzymes, and adding to my high blood pressure. She couldn't give me a reason why that was, so she lost her position as "my doctor".

Ideally it would be nice to find a doctor that is a using athlete that understands ever aspect of health and typical labs of even an athlete, especially one that is using.

Posted by: Mags

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

Sorry, I should have been clearer, program variation is one type of periodization, but I was asking if you have any sort of deload or submaximal weeks built into your program.

Not really. Like I said previously, I tend to train in 3-4month chunks where I have the same regime, always going heavy. I think it's time I looked at training differently. The above has been effective in the past, but now it's a bit of a struggle.

Posted by: chronicelite

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mags

Ya I hear ya, I usually train HEAVY but, as the weight gets higher and higher it starts to sh*t kick you to the point of dying LOL.

Posted by: Mags

Quote:

Originally Posted by chronicelite

Ya I hear ya, I usually train HEAVY but, as the weight gets higher and higher it starts to sh*t kick you to the point of dying LOL.

Yup, the heavier poundages from benching/dumbell pressing have definitely taken a toll on my right shoulder joint and the skullcrushers always hurt my elbows to the point I may have to stop going heavy or stop them altogether. Heavy back workouts twinge the tendons/ligaments by my left bicep at the elbow and my knees don't like to look directly at the squat rack anymore.

Posted by: workingatit43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Okay, total testosterone is at half mast, your lipids suck and your free testosterone is in the toilet. Did you get your bloodwork done again after that?

Yes I had some bloodwork done about a month ago. Lipids were better and free test was slightly higher.

Posted by: workingatit43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whatsaroid?

I was thinking the same, to add what did you use for pct to fix this?

My pct was Post Cycle Support and Lean Xtreme

Posted by: Mags

Hey guys, I had blood work done today after being off the Hdrol for 10 weeks.

I will hopefully get a whole analysis of what's going on, but I know my doc was more focused on my urea and electrolytes, liver function, thyroid function and random glucose.

I should hear something back in about a week. I'll keep you posted.

Cheers.

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Two months post-Hdrol cycle blood work.

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