Kathybird's Transformation Challenge Thread

[Kathybird]

Do you think that's adaptation?

[Built]

Do I think what is adaptation?

[Built]

Oh, another article for you Kathy:

Presence or absence of carbohydrates and the propo... [Br J Nutr. 2010] - PubMed result

Presence or absence of carbohydrates and the proportion of fat in a high-protein diet affect appetite suppression but not energy expenditure in normal-weight human subjects fed in energy balance.

Abstract

Two types of relatively high-protein diets, with a normal or low proportion of carbohydrates, have been shown effective for weight loss. The objective was to assess the significance of the presence or absence of carbohydrates and the proportion of fat in high-protein diets for affecting appetite suppression, energy expenditure, and fat oxidation in normal-weight subjects in energy balance.

Subjects (aged 23 (sd 3) years and BMI 22·0 (sd 1·9) kg/m2) were stratified in two groups. Each was offered two diets in a randomised cross-over design:

• group 1 (n 22) - normal protein (NP; 10, 60 and 30 % energy (En%) from protein, carbohydrate and fat), high protein (HP; 30, 40 and 30 En%);
• group 2 (n 23) - normal protein (NP-g; 10, 60 and 30 En%), high protein, carbohydrate-free (HP-0C; 30, 0 and 70 En%)

for 2 d; NP-g and HP-0C were preceded by glycogen-lowering exercise (day 1). Appetite was measured throughout day 2 using visual analogue scales (VAS).

Energy expenditure (EE) and substrate oxidation (respiratory quotient; RQ) were measured in a respiration chamber (08.00 hours on day 2 until 07.30 hours on day 3).

Fasting plasma β-hydroxybutyrate (BHB) concentration was measured (day 3).

NP-g and NP did not differ in hunger, EE, RQ and BHB. HP-0C and HP v. NP-g and NP, respectively, were lower in hunger (P < 0·05; P < 0·001) and RQ (P < 0·01; P < 0·001) and higher in EE (P < 0·05; P = 0·07) and BHB (P < 0·05; P < 0·001).

Hunger and RQ were lower with HP-0C than HP (693 (sd 208) v. 905 (sd 209) mm VAS × 24 h, P < 0·01; 0·76 (sd 0·01) v. 0·81 (sd 0·02), P < 0·01); BHB was higher (1349 (sd 653) v. 332 (sd 102) μmol/l; P < 0·001). ΔHunger, ΔRQ, and ΔBHB were larger between HP-0C-NP-g than between HP-NP ( - 346 (sd 84) v. - 107 (sd 52) mm VAS × 24 h, P < 0·01; - 0·09 (sd 0·00) v. - 0·05 (sd 0·00), P < 0·001; 1115 (sd 627) v. 104 (sd 42) μmol/l, P < 0·001). In conclusion, appetite suppression and fat oxidation were higher on a high-protein diet without than with carbohydrates exchanged for fat. Energy expenditure was not affected by the carbohydrate content of a high-protein diet.

Now, the abstract is written in characteristically dense academic prose; I've added some white space to improve readability. The comparisons were as follow:

NP and NP-g: Normal Protein, the baseline meal for both groups: 10% of calories from protein, 60% from carbohydrate and 30% from fat
HP: High Protein, high carb: 30% of calories from protein, 40% from carbohydrate and 30% from fat
HP0C: High Protein, zero carbohydrate: 30% of calories from protein, 0% from carbohydrate and 70% from fat

The groups were either Normal Protein vs High protein and High carbohydrate (group 1, aka NP-g/HP)

-or-

Normal Protein vs High protein and Zero carbohydrates (group 2, aka NP/HP0C)

Now, I am NOT a fan of percentage based prose. The full article is not available, but presuming calories were held constant, the high protein meal had three times the protein of the normal protein meal.

NP-g and NP were the "normal protein" conditions that were used as controls for both groups.

The researchers found that the calories burned did not vary depending upon which dietery mix one consumed - but that appetite DOES, with the greatest reduction in hunger coming from the meal consisting of higher than normal protein and fat with lower than normal carbohydrate.

Surprise!

In other words, NO, you don't need carbs to lose weight - in fact, avoiding them - at least most of the time - is likely to help you avoid feeling hungry. If you DO feel better on higher carbs, you'll still lose the same amount of fat on a high protein, high carb diet as you would on a high protein, low carbohydrate diet.


Science is so fun!

[Kathybird]

Do I think what is adaptation?

The body adapting its hunger levels with longer time between meals ... I could be led to think that the whole cavemen-didn't-eat-often-until-something-was-infrequently-killed thing might have something to do with it.


DId you know corn has absolutely NO nutritional value whatsoever and barely resembles its predecessor, maize?

[Kathybird]

Dammit my zone bars have fructose in them. *sigh* The hubby said he'll take them.

[carmineb]

if u r having problems with teh bp, the hydrochlorothyazide, (diuretic for lowering bp, I take em too), just drink tons of water!!!! you just need to flush your system of all the salts and one pill will work again!

I tend to work it differently as far as how much calories. I state how many protein I need first, then subtract and know the rest is fats or carbs. I prefer fats and keeping starch lower. GH release assists in some weight loss and GH and insulin spike cannot co-exist so keep your insulin flat as possible otherwise the carbs go to fat. (complex carbs like oatmeal are best of course

[Built]

They have soy too. They're absolute garbage. The fructose as you know is bad news for appetite. Soy is known to reduce thyroid function. I go out of my way to avoid consuming soy.

Zone Perfect Bars - Zone Perfect Protein Bar
The number one ingredient is HFCS. Number two is soy. The honey and raisin paste are hidden extra sources of fructose.

Serving Size (bar) 1
Calories 190
Fat Calories 50
Total Fat (g) 6
Sat. Fat (g) 1.5
Cholesterol (mg) 0
Sodium (mg) 150
Potassium (mg) 220
Total Carbs (g) 20
Dietary Fiber (g) 2
Sugars (g) 16
Proteins (g) 14


Ingredients: HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, SOY PROTEIN ISOLATE, ALMONDS, HONEY, TOASTED SOYBEANS, RAISIN PASTE, ROLLED OATS, GLYCERINE, COCOA BUTTER, TRICALCIUM PHOSHATE, LESS THAN 2% OF THE FOLOWING: OAT FIBER, LECITHIN (AS AN EMULSIFIER), NATURAL FLAVORS, ASCORBIC ACID

Holy crap, they're just shitty-tasting candy bars! 20g of carbohydrate, 16g of which comes from sugar (which means 8g from fructose) and only 14g of protein.

Two small bananas only have slightly more fructose than a Zone bar; hell, half a can of regular Coke has the same amount of fructose as a Zone bar!

Fuckers. It's part of how they kept the bullshit glycemic index of them down. Fructose has a very low GI. Had they left off the HFCS, honey and raisin puree and subbed in dextrose, the (useless, outdated, overly-hyped) GI would have been higher - and even though it's been debunked as the wrong measure, the buying public LOVES the GI!

Getting angry yet, Kathy?

[Built]

The body adapting its hunger levels with longer time between meals ... I could be led to think that the whole cavemen-didn't-eat-often-until-something-was-infrequently-killed thing might have something to do with it.


DId you know corn has absolutely NO nutritional value whatsoever and barely resembles its predecessor, maize?

Not quite "NO" value, but not much. Honestly, I don't eat carbohydrates for their nutritional values - I eat them for the non-fructose source of starch. But yeah, I hear you.

[Kathybird]

Getting angry yet, Kathy?

Yeah, goddamn it. I just had my shake, then started on an "all natural" yogurt and was reading the ingredients. Goddamn it!! Only had 2 bites.

[Kathybird]

Today

1715 cals

164g protein
91g carbs
76g fat

weight this AM was 180

[Built]

Yes!

Okay, let's find out what you did that worked so well for you.

What did you eat - and when?

Please indicate the time you ate each meal and its macronutrient breakdown.

Also, did you train today? What time, and what did you do?

[Kathybird]

Uhhh... slight adjustment. Not sleeping, hungry even with protein shake, had a couple mini bagels.

protein 173g
carbs 117g
fat 92g
cals 2007

So what worked... Well I got up at 9:30, had a coffee mixed with colonix and protein powder, that held me for a little wihle, then had a zone bar on the way to a movie, that was about 11:30. (Hop. Eh. It was cute I guess.) P34g, C50g, F11g

Was pretty damn hungry after that (gee...) had a big omelette with cheese and shrooms, about 3-ish. I got a massive headache, came home to lie down (we were running all over the place today). Plus another zone bar before they were discovered to have been bogus. P65g, C29g, F39g

then had dinner like 8-ish, a steak panfried in butter with spinach. After teh shake and an aborted yogurt. Dessert right after was sugar free jello with cool whip which I found out was NOT sugar free. rrr. P66g, C11g, F25g.

SO the "midnight snack" is now 1 a.m., 2 mini bagels with cream cheese. And I needed that. Made me feel better. P9g, C27g, F15g.

I've been having some digestion issues since dinner. And I had a rather larger bit of unintended sugar that I would not have had.

[Built]

Okay, so you fought with the sugar today - and that sucked. Still, your calories were not bad at all.

So - what's the plan for tomorrow? You know that's the key here, right? Preplan your day.

What will you eat for your first meal, what for the second, what for the third?

[Kathybird]

Ah, OK.

Breakfast is going to be at first a shake and see how long that holds me. Then an omelette with veggies, have to sneak those suckers in somehow.

Lunch, probably going to need a few carbs, I've got low carb wraps for sandwiches and some berries to put in the shake.

Dinner there's a variety of meat in the house now, steak, chicken, fish, and I got both sweet potatoes and regular ones.

What I need a game plan for is the weekends. We're constantly running, hitting people's houses and diners and takeout. Although the diners and takeouts are not too hard, find some meat and remove the bread pretty much. I still have to find a solution to if we're out and I get really hungry and depleted. Maybe I can make "drug bags" of protein powder and keep one or two in my purse and a couple in the car. I could use a bottle of water and dump it in, like crystal light packets . ...... nuts!! I can keep those in a baggie in my purse. That defeats the whole snack thing though.

[Kathybird]

Well I think I loaded too many calories into breakfast. I was hungry though. Breakfast burritos, low carb tortillas, cheese, salsa. Shake got milk and strawberries, I needed something to settle my stomach. The thought of just having eggs by themselves was making me a little queasy.

I plan on making this hold me until 3 or 4 today though.

[HotRodAnglican]

I plan on making this hold me until 3 or 4 today though.

No meals between breakfast and 3 or 4 pm!?

[Kathybird]

No meals between breakfast and 3 or 4 pm!?

I plan on going back to bed and sleeping until at least noon. Maybe 2.

[Built]

Weekends: prepack food that travels well. Will you eat hardboiled eggs and a handful of walnuts? Because your dry shake drug bag idea is great - keep a few shakes ready to go, a few hardboiled eggs, an ounce of walnuts and maybe something like a pepperoni stick or some jerky and you'll be able to fill up. Oh, pack your fish oil caps along with - knock back 5 caps and a shake, eat three hardboiled eggs and the walnuts with a pepperoni - that ought to keep you in the fed state for hours.

I'm glad you got in a big breakfast. I worry about the low carb tortillas though. What are the ingredients?

Also - generally, I find a shake will make me hungry if I have it by itself, but will fill me up if I have it before a solid meal. Many people who have tried using shakes while dieting find the same thing, and I seem to recall you complaining this was the case as well. Is there some reason why you want to have one without a solid meal in the AM?

[RoidRage9]

good luck

[Kathybird]

Oh. Maybe I got that wrong. I was trying to go for longer in the AM without eating like you suggested. I was attributing the shakes' not filling me up with being hungry after a workout (I probably was) and the shakes' not doing anything for that.

This being able to "control" hunger is a very weird and interesting state. On the days I do well I can just keep going without eating. A couple times I've gotten tired and pissy but not hungry. I remember doing that when I was younger, and realizing that I needed food. So now, I can either continue to ignore the pissiness and just sit if no one's around to bitch at, or eat. And not pick at what I'm preparing. Or go for that interim snack.

I had my cheat meal ... Friday at like 2 a.m. I needed it. Felt better, it was pancakes with lots of syrup. But.... didn't make me hungry, was satisfied with it after, don't really want anything like that now. It's about 2:30, had my nice nappy (Mondays are "Kathy days" where I rest from the insanity that is the weekend, I can sleep or not do laundry or whatever the hell I want until the kid comes home. And I'm not hungry at all.

[Built]

Oh. Maybe I got that wrong. I was trying to go for longer in the AM without eating like you suggested. I was attributing the shakes' not filling me up with being hungry after a workout (I probably was) and the shakes' not doing anything for that.

This being able to "control" hunger is a very weird and interesting state. On the days I do well I can just keep going without eating. A couple times I've gotten tired and pissy but not hungry. I remember doing that when I was younger, and realizing that I needed food. So now, I can either continue to ignore the pissiness and just sit if no one's around to bitch at, or eat. And not pick at what I'm preparing. Or go for that interim snack.

I had my cheat meal ... Friday at like 2 a.m. I needed it. Felt better, it was pancakes with lots of syrup. But.... didn't make me hungry, was satisfied with it after, don't really want anything like that now. It's about 2:30, had my nice nappy (Mondays are "Kathy days" where I rest from the insanity that is the weekend, I can sleep or not do laundry or whatever the hell I want until the kid comes home. And I'm not hungry at all.

It's an interesting process, isn't it? Very cool when you begin to realize it's not random. Once you understand the drivers, the rest is up to you.

BTW, the reason why the two AM pancakes didn't mess you up was because your liver wasn't overloaded with fructose already, PLUS you ate a whole pile of protein earlier in the day. The research shows that when people eat a protein-heavy first meal, their intake is smaller for the subsequent meal - even if this meal is lower in protein.

[Kathybird]

For my next cheat meal, either Friday or Saturday, I'm going to have a Cadbury egg. I LOVE those things. Pure gooey goodness. I used to stockpile them come Easter time and freeze them.

[Kathybird]

P 152g
C 140g
F 70g

Cal 1716

I'd LIKE to sit at the 1700 mark, haven't made it yet. 1800 is OK too. I haven't worked out yet, one of those damn days everything gets screwed up. Going to work out after I digest some. I prefer to be a couple hours out of a meal to work out but sometimes I just can't make that happen. Would have liked to eat after the workout too but couldn't work that either.

[Built]

You may find as I have that once you start training, you're not hungry - but you're REALLY hungry right after! So just train unfed. Otherwise, I'm with you - either early in the day fasted, or later in the day with a few meals under my belt.

You could also try bringing a whey shake with you. Have a few sips of it as you're warming up, then drink the rest after you train and on your way home to eat.

[Kathybird]

Actually, I've done it before - trained hungry. I tend to hit the wall. I'm only benching 40 lbs. but I don't want that to fall on me.

When we were in our .... late teens? I think? ... we went caving, a group of us. There was this opening into a set of largish hills (not sure I can call them mountains) that a friend of a friend showed someone... anyway, we went in and it was huge, we went all over, spent most of the day down there, stopped at the bottom and had lunch amid the graffitti and drug paraphernalia. Three of us ventured into some really tight spaces. On the way back out, I hit it. Literally 100 yards from the entrance, which was a steep climb. I swear to god, I couldn't move. Muscles froze, some of them started shaking. I was a cyclist, I knew what it was but hadn't ever hit it that hard before. One of the guys had to come back down and almost drag me up.

[Kathybird]

eh. Added a piece of bread and a tablespoon of PB to my cals. 1947 for the day. Was a little depleted after the workout, but I did a bit more than I thought I would.

[Built]

You shouldn't be training that hard while dieting; you know that, right?

I'll give you an example of how I train while cutting:

Dynamic stretches, two minutes.

3x5 power cleans (95*115 lbs)
3x8 split squats (115-135 lbs)
3x8 Romanian deads (135 lbs)
3x8 olympic bar corner press (25-35 lb plate)
3x8 chins (unweighted at the moment)

LONG rest breaks between sets, to keep my strength up.

That's it. 15 sets at the most.

If I'm REALLY feeling ambitious:
Treadmill for 20 minutes, with about 4-8 sprint intervals tossed into the very beginning (20 second sprint, 40 second recovery) followed by walking. Total session time: 20 minutes.

That's it. If I'm pressed for time, I skip the cardio entirely.

[Built]

eh. Added a piece of bread and a tablespoon of PB to my cals. 1947 for the day. Was a little depleted after the workout, but I did a bit more than I thought I would.

This is why I train so little while cutting. It overstimulates appetite.

Still, you did great - you stayed under 2000 calories!

[Kathybird]

I know that in my head but my body wants to sweat! I'm definitely not doing max weight. I could probably be at 50 lbs for everything.

Here's what I did:
(40 lbs unless noted and 5x5 unless noted)

overhead press
romanian deadlifts
bench press
squats
bent over rows
leg extensions (40x2, 50x3)
incline flies (10 lbs a hand)
crunches - 100
side bends (10 each side, 2x, with 10lbs in each hand)

I dont' even know what to call an "easy" workout. I'm used to running for an hour, hour and a half at varying speeds. I've always worked out essentially to failure - I go past the euphoria until I'm pretty spent. Cycling and weights and 80s cardio (that was kinda fun actually) in my teens/twenties, then jogging, then a hodgepodge of all that into my 30s until I had the kid. Shit went downhill after that. I was walking after she was born and never got back to the level I was before, although I've always exercised somehow. I actually feel really really bad if I go more than 2 days without.

[Kathybird]

Still, you did great - you stayed under 2000 calories!

True... but the scale ain't budgin' so far. 180 this morning.