Pergolide, Mirapex, Amphetamine, Selegeline, and other assorted halloween candies

**Monolith** · 11-13-2004, 12:26 PM

I'm gonna run this log here at IM and also at Lyle's board. I like the input from people here and there... unfortunately everyone posts at different boards.

I'm still "bulking," although diet has been less than stellar. Weights are going up still, but im up to 240lbs as of this morning.

I look a lot better than the last time i saw this weight, but im still fat. Just been too busy to really put a concerted effort into eating cleanly. Anyway, here's the log:

------

This is mostly going to be a log of my generally uneducated experimentation upon myself with drugs im familiar with only from the unchecked and often dangerously ignorant depths of the internet. Oh yeah, a few books, too.

For an overview of myself:
I'm psychiatrically impaired. When unmedicated, ive got some wickedly severe depression/suicidal ideation, severe ADD, mild OCD, and a host of related psychodevelopmental problems as a result (which i wont delve into, since we only just got rid of a Kevin, and probably dont need another). Thus far it seems most of my problems are related to dopamine (duh). Wellbutrin, adderall, and mirapex (a potent non-ergot D3 agonist with moderate D2/D4 activity) have all had profound impacts on my situation. It's interesting to note that i have a lot of "thrill seeking" behavior - which has often been attributed to an attempt at "self medication." i.e. low basal levels of DA promote a compulsion to increase levels through excitement. I find this to be very true, as i speed far too often, and lost my license for a month because i had accumulated too many speeding tickets (that was after getting out of a shit-ton of them in court/through favors, too). I also skydive, scuba dive relatively recklessly, and generally try to stimulate myself. It's interesting that in all of these situations, i find myself at my calmest and most serene. i.e. the first time i jumped out of a plane. I was kneeling at the doorway, nervous as shit, but as soon as i left the plane - it was the most serene, incredibly relaxed, most meditative experience of my life. I had never felt so utterly peaceful. Paradoxical, no? Anyway, of the three, the mirapex has been the most impressive. It's something i'd like to write about in more detail, but just dont have the time. There are a lot of people ive seen around these various forums (especially some of the lunatics at avant) who have symptoms that seem to parallel my own, and who i think could benefit greatly from mirapex. Psychiatrically, it's my wonder drug. Anyway, something else to add to my "list of things to do during winter break."

For what im currently taking:
60mg racemic amphetamine/adderall XR 1x AM
30mg racemic amphetamine/adderall (instant release) as needed, i.e. when the XR stops working
150mg venlafaxine/effexor 1x AM
300mg bupropion/wellbutrin 1x AM
500mcg pramipexole/mirapex 2x AM/PM (has a relatively short half life, dosed upon waking and 8 hours later, but not after 6pm... although timing really isnt as important as something like pergolide)

The current supplements arent much... fish oil, whey, calcium, vit c, multivit/min, b complex. Sesathin occassionally. I should be taking NAC, but measuring out the powder 2x a day was a pain in the ass, so i stopped. Im waiting on fucking 1fast to ship my order, in which i finally bought a capper.

Anyway, what prompted this journal was a decision to toy around with pergolide. Ive been trying to find some a non-ergot D1 agonist, but it just doesnt exist. Theres not even anything close to in-vivo human clinical trials around, yet... so that really leaves me with no choice. What really piqued my interest in the D1 receptor is its relative abundance in the prefrontal cortex relative to other areas of the brain, and the prefrontal cortex/dopamine theory of depression/add/ocd/etc. Im figuring that something like a selective D1/D2 agonist would have very few side effects in someone like myself, since DA activity in these regions would be very minimal to begin with. And as for body comp effects, there should be relatively drastic optimizations, since the system has been out of whack to begin with - this wouldnt simply be putting higher octane gas in the engine, as one might parallel pergolide use in an otherwise healthy individual. This should be the equivelent of trading in that busted up civic with the unpainted wing for a V10 viper. My hopes, at least.

So, that brings us to today. I threw back 125mcg of pergolide this morning. I was going to start at 250mcg, as i assumed my tolerance should be relatively high given the lack of side effects i had when titrating up with mirapex (and the fact that i was on mirapex to begin with), but i cant chance being unproductive today, so played it safe. Tdose+1:45 and i havent experienced a single side. I should note that the only drug i discontinued was the mirapex (although depending on how things go, i may reintroduce it). The only worry i have is the cardiac damage related with pergolide use. It seems like it only happens in people using high dose, long term pergolide... but i honestly havent looked into it very thoroughly. It's something that would have been prudent to do before i started the drug, but hey, who needs a heart anyway?

Off to the gym, now.

**Monolith** · 11-13-2004, 12:35 PM

Training is still a take on Lyle's version of periodization. It's supposed to be a 3 day split - chest/back/grip, quads/hams/calves, shoulders/bi/tri/abs. However, lately its only been a 2 day split, with no direct shoulder/bi/tri/ab work. This is mostly because i often find myself running out of time in the day to get to the gym, which constantly screws up my split. The direct work on that day really isnt necessary, though, so im not worried. Those muscles have been getting plenty of direct work on the other days.

So, we have todays w/o: Chest/Back

Flat BB press - 3/0/x tempo, 4-5 min RI
235lbx2
235lbx2
235lbx2

BB row - 3/0/1 tempo, 2-3 min RI
205lbx6
205lbx6
205lbx6
205lbx5
205lbx5
205lbx4

Flat BB press - 3/0/2 tempo, 1-2 min RI
155lbx8
155lbx8
155lbx6
155lbx6

WG pulldowns - 3/0/2 tempo, 1-2 min RI
140lbx13
140lbx9

---

Decent. Prolly gonna some stuff around (emphasis, rep range, and whatnot) in a few weeks. I dont really like having flat BB press as my only chest movement. Strength has progressed, though, for sure.

**Twin Peak** · 11-13-2004, 01:33 PM

Damn, you are fucked up. And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Seriously though, perg messed me up bad, and I saw no body comp effects.

**Twin Peak** · 11-13-2004, 01:34 PM

Oh, and I don't have any of those issues, but right before jumping, and while freefalling was probably the most serene experience of my life as well.

**Monolith** · 11-13-2004, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Twin Peak

Damn, you are fucked up. And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Seriously though, perg messed me up bad, and I saw no body comp effects.

haha. Hey, someone has to do it.

Weird about the pergolide... how high a dose did you maintain and for how long? Could ya describe "messed me up bad" any better?

And why the fuck doesnt ANYTHING work on you? I wonder if a gunshot would.

**Monolith** · 11-13-2004, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Twin Peak

Oh, and I don't have any of those issues, but right before jumping, and while freefalling was probably the most serene experience of my life as well.

Yeah, its a good thing i was hooked up to someone else that first time, or i would have forgotten to pull the chord. Seriously, when the chute opened, i was like "wtf is going on?" Then i realized we had dropped 10k feet and it was time to slow down.

**aggies1ut** · 11-13-2004, 04:54 PM

Gonna stick with updating this journal with school and all? lol jk Good luck with this one.

Re: The only worry i have is the cardiac damage related with pergolide use. It seems like it only happens in people using high dose, long term pergolide... but i honestly havent looked into it very thoroughly. It's something that would have been prudent to do before i started the drug, but hey, who needs a heart anyway (Maybe I should ask my dad for ya.

He's a cardiologist).

When did you first sky dive? I want to do that.

**Twin Peak** · 11-13-2004, 05:26 PM

125 knocked me on my ass. Nauseous, sick, worn down, sleepy, major flu-like symptoms. Nasty.

Then I worked all the way up to 1800 or so. If nothing else, I can persevere. And nothing.

**Monolith** · 11-13-2004, 09:31 PM

Yeah, im turning into a bit of a MonStar... lol. I don't see any reason i won't stick with this log, seeing as how ive basically described it as covering nearly everything in my life. Time will tell, though.

I did that skydive like 2.5 years ago in australia. Did it right over the coast. We were actually a good 500 feet off shore for the jump, and just glided in to the beach. It's definitely worth doing. IIRC, lessons werent too expensive... but going tandem is just as fun.

Steve, thats fuckin bizarre that you had all the sides and none of the benefits. Did the sides lessen at all while you stabilized at 1800? I forgot to post this earlier, but i popped 500mcg of mirapex around 4pm this afternoon, as it seemed as if the pergs initial effects (regarding mood, etc) were wearing off. I was expecting at least some mild nausea, consider i now had two D2 agonists in my system... but there was nothing. Felt fine.

I'm gonna head on up to 250mcg tomorrow, if that still doesnt hit me, im goin straight for 500. I'm still thinkin i should be able to titrate up pretty damn quickly. The only thing that might slow me down is coinciding dose increases with days my schedule is relatively light... so if the DA hits the fan, i wont be totally screwed.

**Twin Peak** · 11-13-2004, 09:46 PM

I titrated very slowly (125 every few days). Sides stabilized, but were always prevelant. Coming off was one of the best feelings of my life.

**Jeanie** · 11-13-2004, 10:09 PM

Wow, thanks for sharing all of that. I too have suffered from severe depression but the thrill seeking is something I try to stay away from b/c I used to have panic attacks. What exaxtly is Peroglide?

**Monolith** · 11-13-2004, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Twin Peak

I titrated very slowly (125 every few days). Sides stabilized, but were always prevelant. Coming off was one of the best feelings of my life.

Strange. You ever try bromo?

**Monolith** · 11-13-2004, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Jeanie

Wow, thanks for sharing all of that. I too have suffered from severe depression but the thrill seeking is something I try to stay away from b/c I used to have panic attacks. What exaxtly is Peroglide?

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php...=18&pageID=218

Check the other issues of M&M for the rest of the series.

**Jeanie** · 11-13-2004, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Monolith

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php...=18&pageID=218

Check the other issues of M&M for the rest of the series.

Sounds interesting but I will check in and see how you are doing. I could really use something to stop my binging. I don't know why i do it but I have for over 20 years and I really would like to stop.

**carbchick** · 11-14-2004, 12:22 AM

all power to you for trying to find the answers yourself albeit thru drugs not karma. when was the last time you experienced drug-free 'reality' in all its horror and brutality? can you remember feeling depressed in as a child?

**P-funk** · 11-14-2004, 07:20 AM

Hey Mon. Cool joural. Any specifc physique goals in mind? Or just bulking up as much as possible? Why did you decide to do your rep ranges to a cadance?

**Monolith** · 11-14-2004, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Jeanie

Sounds interesting but I will check in and see how you are doing. I could really use something to stop my binging. I don't know why i do it but I have for over 20 years and I really would like to stop.

There's no way i could ever recommend pergolide to anyone, especially not in a situation like this. It's an extremely potent drug whose only FDA approved use is for parkinsons (and commonly prescribed off label for restless leg syndrome and hyperprolactinemia). The side effects for most people are extremely severe, including nausea, headaches, and narcolepsy. There's also no guarantee it's going to work with regards to nutrient partitioning, as TP mentioned.

Have you tried other types of appetite suppressants for your binging? What about therapy?

**Monolith** · 11-14-2004, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by carbchick

all power to you for trying to find the answers yourself albeit thru drugs not karma. when was the last time you experienced drug-free 'reality' in all its horror and brutality? can you remember feeling depressed in as a child?

Yeah, i wasnt on anything until about 6 months ago. I was really close to the edge (ill spare you the drama), and decided id give drugs another shot. I had used them minimally years ago in highschool, but i really had no interest in using them and it was only at the prodding of my parents/school counselor that i even went to a shrink. Even then i wasnt consistent with the meds... way too much teenage rebellion/i hate the world/i know better than you/ attitude. I think my biggest aversion to psych drugs was i didnt feel it would be the "real" me when i was on them. In a sense, i've found that to be true... but it's either that or 6 feet under, so i'm gonna play out the drugs for a while at least and see how it goes.

I dont mind talking about my immediate psychological problems, but the psychosocial/psychodevelopmental stuff isnt something im too comfortable with (even though i realize its all related). But yeah, i can remember a lot of this stuff relating to me as a kid (pre puberty). Even as far back as preschool... which is bizarre, since my memory in general is awful. I barely remember anything before i was 10-12... and the stuff i do remember only seems to stick out in my mind as being fairly traumatic. lol. Such is life.

**Jeanie** · 11-14-2004, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Monolith

There's no way i could ever recommend pergolide to anyone, especially not in a situation like this. It's an extremely potent drug whose only FDA approved use is for parkinsons (and commonly prescribed off label for restless leg syndrome and hyperprolactinemia). The side effects for most people are extremely severe, including nausea, headaches, and narcolepsy. There's also no guarantee it's going to work with regards to nutrient partitioning, as TP mentioned.

Have you tried other types of appetite suppressants for your binging? What about therapy?

I suppose I should try some type of therapy. I just feel it is something deeper that I can't even get into. Wonder what kind of appetite suppressant would be good? Last time I tried one of those it was Dexatrim and I was 14

**Monolith** · 11-14-2004, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by P-funk

Hey Mon. Cool joural. Any specifc physique goals in mind? Or just bulking up as much as possible? Why did you decide to do your rep ranges to a cadance?

Yeah... i wanna get HYOOGE and RIPPED.

But honestly, the whole idea of this past bulk was that it was going to be clean and short. I wanted to get back to cutting, since i felt i was still pretty fat (and i was). I'm probably back up around 18% BF at this point. Thats just a guess, though, since ive learned to hate that little 3-point electronic accucheck thing. Pants are a tad tighter, but i really dont look that much larger... probably because im so tall. Shit, back when i was 300lbs, i didnt even look that fat.

Anyway, my schedule has been completely screwy lately, so my diet has been junk. Junk leads to junk, of course... so my self-control is lacking as well. I went out last night to a performance of "Beethoven's 3's" by the local symphony orchestra, and during the intermission, passed over the turkey sandwiches for a cookie. Not to mention what my meal looked like before the show (16oz of filet mignon, flambe'd to perfection amid peppercorn and cognac).

Over the past week i gained 2lbs, which is actually amazingly good considering how much crap ive been eating... probably around the 5-6kcal/day mark. Of the 20lbs i gained, id say 8-10 is water, too... since a lot of that weight came in the first week when i stopped starving myself and ate brown rice like it was my job.

Goals for now are really nonexistent. As i see it now, i'm gonna just wing it untill winter break, and then probably begin cutting again.

As for the rep ranges... what do you mean exactly? You talking about the tempo? Or the actual variation in rep ranges?

**Monolith** · 11-14-2004, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Jeanie

I suppose I should try some type of therapy. I just feel it is something deeper that I can't even get into. Wonder what kind of appetite suppressant would be good? Last time I tried one of those it was Dexatrim and I was 14

Well, i mean, i probably shouldnt talk... since the last time i was in therapy was when i was 15/16. But from (the very little) ive read about eating disorders, binging it something thats most effectively treated with some form of direct therapy.

I don't want to come off as offensive and be like "PERGOLIDE IS WAY TOO HARDCORE FOR YOU," i just that think it'd be overkill for you, and probably out of the realm of what effects youre looking for. Especially considering how friggin awesome you look in those pics.

But as an appetite suppressent... i think you were the one who started that thread asking about them in the supplement forum, right? All the ones people suggested in there would certainly help. I think nicotine gum would be especially helpful for you during those sudden cravings. I've never used it, but TP said Anorect-In worked great, too... and id definitely trust his recommendations.

**Monolith** · 11-14-2004, 08:06 AM

Journal update:

Bumped to 250mcg of pergolide this morning. T+1:00 i'm getting a bit of nausea, very similar to what i experienced when titrating up on the mirapex. Could it be that nausea is a side effect of D2 activity only...? This could make things very, very interesting if an orally active D1-specific agonist becomes available....

**P-funk** · 11-14-2004, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Monolith

As for the rep ranges... what do you mean exactly? You talking about the tempo? Or the actual variation in rep ranges?

yeah, the tempo cadance.

**carbchick** · 11-14-2004, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Monolith

I dont mind talking about my immediate psychological problems, but the psychosocial/psychodevelopmental stuff isnt something im too comfortable with (even though i realize its all related).

sorry mono didn't mean to pry. I've been thinking about this for myself recently, I guess that's why I thought to ask.

do you have any specific diet plans or just to eat clean as poss? you seemed pretty disciplined in the past.

**Monolith** · 11-14-2004, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by carbchick

sorry mono didn't mean to pry. I've been thinking about this for myself recently, I guess that's why I thought to ask.

do you have any specific diet plans or just to eat clean as poss? you seemed pretty disciplined in the past.

Dont take it the wrong way... i dont mind the questions at all, i just might not answer some.

P, the tempo is part of the periodization program Lyle wrote up in the Avant mag a few months back. It varies depending on the type of emphasis youre putting on a muscle, be it hypertrophy, strength, or a combination.

**P-funk** · 11-14-2004, 05:19 PM

P, the tempo is part of the periodization program Lyle wrote up in the Avant mag a few months back. It varies depending on the type of emphasis youre putting on a muscle, be it hypertrophy, strength, or a combination.

gotcha.

**Monolith** · 11-15-2004, 04:50 AM

Well, third day and im still alive. I'm gonna stick to 250mcg for one more day, since i did have a touch of nausea yesterday from dosage increase, and i dont need a lot of distraction today.

That said, im sort of freaking myself out. I mean, before i even started any direct DA agonists, i was already using a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, and an indirect DA agonist (amphetamine). When i first titrated up to 500mcg 2x day with the mirapex, it was almost completely side-effect free, with the exception of a bit of nausea. The thing is, i didnt stop any of the other DA stimulating drugs. WTF? I should have been fuckin out of my mind, but i felt great. Even some intranasal shots of nicotine ON TOP OF all that didnt increase my sides one bit.

Then i go ahead and start the pergolide. I figure it's best to drop the mirapex first (duh), but i continue taking everything else. Yet on my first day, what do i do? I drop 125mcg of pergolide, and about 6 hours later feel like its mood-enhancing effects are wearing off, so i drop 500mcg of mirapex. LOLZWTF? So not only do i have all this initial DA stimulation from the wellbutrin and amphetamine, but ive also got TWO DA agonists floating around upstairs. Yet how do i feel? "Eh, same 'ol, same 'ol."

This is very, very weird. I've only been on the mirapex for a couple weeks - there's no way the additional DA stimulation it caused has already inhibited endogenous DA release very much (although, apparently, there doesnt seem to be much of any to begin with).

All in all, its both fascinating and freakishly scary at the same time.

**Monolith** · 11-15-2004, 01:02 PM

Very, very small amount of nausea this morning. I felt somewhat stimmed out for the first half of the day, until around 1:30. Very similar to that first "amphetamine high." Extremely good mood, very outgoing, complete lack of anxiety, and very motivated. Concentration was pretty good. I ate my first meal around 8am, and didnt eat again until 2pm... and i was just barely starting to feel hungry. I didnt go that long on purpose, i just forgot to take a shake with me this morning.

The quality of my sleep last night left something to be desired. It felt as though i wasnt hitting REM sleep, or even Stage 3, as i woke up rather frequently and i didnt feel groggy. Likely due to all the prefrontal DA activity. I may try dropping the adderall with tomorrows bump to 375mcg and see how it goes.

Today is leg day, off to the gym.

**Monolith** · 11-15-2004, 03:35 PM

Training for 11/15: Quads/Hams

ATG Squats - 4-5 min RI, 3/0/x tempo
255lbx3
255lbx2
255lbx1
225lbx3
225lbx3
225lbx3
*BLARG. I had been doing squats to parallel. First time ive done them ATG in a while, and hooooo-boy am i a weak motherfucker. Of course, being 6'5" means i have to move the bar about a quarter mile for a full squat, but still... i feel like such a pussy.

SLDL - 2-3 min RI, 3/0/1 tempo
245lbx7
245lbx6

Leg Press - 1-2 min RI, 3/0/2 tempo
490lbx12
490lbx9

--------

Overall, today sucked. Ive been on this leg mesocycle for way too long. It may just be the added glute/ham activation from doing the squats ATG, but my lifts have gotten mildly weaker over the past week. I hate the prospect of it, but i may have to finally move to more high rep stuff... *shudder*

Didnt do calves because theyre big already and calf raises are about as fun as watching paint dry.

**Twin Peak** · 11-15-2004, 03:43 PM

Personally, I like watching paint dry.

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