Boilermaker Cut Down

boilermaker · 12-05-2005, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pylon

OK, so for those of us interested in following along, when do we start and what do we need to have on hand?

Pylon, you've got plenty of time. I'll try and get the journal started today. We can use the winter to talk about different things to grow and their requirements. Maybe highlight a couple veggies and herbs per week. I'll also post some pictures of my planter boxes and areas so that people can get some ideas and start to plan for the spring. One of the first steps you can take is to find out what your "frost free date" is for where you live. This is the average date for the last frost of the year in your area and you key off of that date to know when to plant things. Also, locate a reputable nursery close to home. Become friends with someone knowledgable who works there. You'll want to be able to rely on them for good plants and info on what works in your area.

boilermaker · 12-05-2005, 04:54 PM

Cardio: 8 minutes warmup on stationary bike

Weights: Upper Body - Push Dominant

Assisted Dips: -16# - 8; BW - 8, 7.75

Flat DB Bench: 25# - 8; 55# - 5, 50# -7, 45# - 8

HS Iso Incline Press: 40# - 8, 8, 7

Tricep Pushdown: 140# - 8, 8; 130# - 8; 100# - 8

Overhead DB Press: 30# - 8, 7; 25# - 8

Tricep Extension Machine: 50# - 8, 8, 6

Notes: There is a problem here. On incline presses and overhead presses, I cannot add weight without incurring pain in my left shoulder. The pain is on the inside, right where the clavicle enters the shoulder area. It hurts when I press in all planes if I add weight and it feels like it wants to pop. I don't want to eliminate these exercises, but it looks like I must. I don't want to have a shoulder injury. I've tried nearly every overhead and incline press machine and freeweights and I can't get around it. I need to replace these two exercises with something that is painless. Rest of workout was kind of blah. Had high hopes for going up in weight on flat bench but started to losee control on the 4th rep and had to step back down in weight.

Diet:

Meal 1: Shake - 6 oz. skim milk, scoop of protein whey, 1/2 bananna, 1/2 cup oats, 1 Tbs. NPB

Meal 2: Bananna/blueberry MR Bar

Meal 3: Chicken breast with veggie brown rice

meal 4: PWO Shake - 6 oz. skim milk, scoop of protein whey, 1/2 bananna, 1/2 cup oats

Meal 5: 1/2 can salmon, 1 cup sweet potatoes, 2 stalks of celery w/1 tbs. NPB

Supplements: 6 fish oil pills, multi-v

Notes: I think I'm going to cut back to 5 meals per day to reduce my caloric intake. I've kind of been stalled in my cut down the past couple of weeks.

boilermaker · 12-06-2005, 02:12 AM

Traveling to Indiana today for work. Will try to keep diet in check. Lots of protein powder,

Edit: appointment cancelled. Yeah!!!!, don't have to drive 500 miles today.

Rocco32 · 12-06-2005, 06:49 AM

Nice w/o. Your pain in the shoulders could be coming from impingement because of the dips. Just a guess, I know that bothers me. Not necessarily when I do dips but afterwards with other exercises. Be careful buddy.

gwcaton · 12-06-2005, 11:20 AM

Nice wo Boiler,
great job on the tri pushdowns

Watch that shoulder ! Deadbolt use to do some exercises of somekind for his shoulder. Might search his journal or pm him.

Burner02 · 12-06-2005, 11:39 AM

u did dips before your chest?
Maybe put that towards the end
1) pre-exhausted your tris...less able to push on the bench
2) might have given the joints / muscles more time to warm up?

otherwise, looks good!

boilermaker · 12-06-2005, 01:45 PM

Rocco: Thanks for the encouragement. It's just my left shoulder, but I don't really understand what impingement, so maybe you are on to something.

GW: Thanks, but I think I might be starting a little high on those. I really try to keep my elbows tucked in to my body and stationary but I was feeling some work in my shoulders. That's why I dropped down in weight at the end. I've been doing some rotator cuff exercises once a week, but I'll keep the deadbolt advice in mind.

Burner: But I like the dips. It's one exercise where I've made measureable progress and I like that. I think you are right about the pre-exhaust thing but I was warmed up before the pain on the inclines. Thanks for dropping in.

Burner02 · 12-06-2005, 01:49 PM

I like dips too!
sour cream and ranch with dill is good...ooohhh...wait....

I either do dips or CG bench as my main tri builder. (one,one week, the next the other, rotate)

Are you straight up and down, or are you leaning in?

**Emma-Leigh** · 12-06-2005, 03:32 PM

Hey Steve...

It certainly sounds like you are having serious impingement issues.

I would suggest you drop all overhead movements and do not do anything that hurts for a while. For your shoulders, you can do lateral raises and things that are under shoulder height (front raises, rear delt rows etc) - as long as they do not aggravate it.

I would incorporate some rotator cuff exercises - simple strength work in external rotation that will help to draw the head of your humerus back into the shoulder socket and away from those tendons at the front of the joint.

Just remember that for these to be effective you have to lift the weight AGAINST gravity - So things like light cuban press, up-right DB external rotations, cable external rotations.

You might want to start to incorporate some stretching for your anterior shoulder muscles (so stretch your chest out) and specifically work on your back to get your rear delts/lats/teres major etc etc strong so they hold your shoulder back too.

I would consider going and seeing a good physiotherapist too - you don't want to mess around with your rotator - if you get a big injury it can stick and ruin your lifting for months/years....

boilermaker · 12-06-2005, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

Hey Steve...

It certainly sounds like you are having serious impingement issues.

I would suggest you drop all overhead movements and do not do anything that hurts for a while. For your shoulders, you can do lateral raises and things that are under shoulder height (front raises, rear delt rows etc) - as long as they do not aggravate it.

We are in agreement there. Incline press and overhead press are the only movements I currently do that aggrevate it. I was thinking of trying some cable crossovers for another chest movement to replace incline press and lateral and front raises, as you suggested, for the shoulders.

Quote:

I would incorporate some rotator cuff exercises - simple strength work in external rotation that will help to draw the head of your humerus back into the shoulder socket and away from those tendons at the front of the joint.

I've been incorporating rotator cuff exercises once a week on a cardio day for a couple of weeks now. I will definitely continue.

Is it the humerus causing this. The pain feels like it is more toward my clavicle than outer arm. Not really in the shoulder, but next to it on the inside.

Quote:

Just remember that for these to be effective you have to lift the weight AGAINST gravity - So things like light cuban press, up-right DB external rotations, cable external rotations.

Got it! I've been doing two of the ones cowpimp suggested earlier in the journal and another I found in a different article.

Quote:

You might want to start to incorporate some stretching for your anterior shoulder muscles (so stretch your chest out) and specifically work on your back to get your rear delts/lats/teres major etc etc strong so they hold your shoulder back too

.
My pull dominant workout should be accomplishing this, no?
Where do I find some good detailed info on how to stretch properly?

Quote:

I would consider going and seeing a good physiotherapist too - you don't want to mess around with your rotator - if you get a big injury it can stick and ruin your lifting for months/years....

I don't want that, I'm just starting to like this

. If I get pain on any more movements, I'll go. If not, I'll wait for my next doctor appt. in January and get a referal then.

Thanks for the inputs, Emma.

Archangel · 12-06-2005, 04:04 PM

Sister Emma had a great post, take care of that shoulder my Friend!!! I went by your house today 1124 right? Very nice 2 story, really similar to mine!!!Hope the shoulder gets better for you!!!

boilermaker · 12-06-2005, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel

Sister Emma had a great post, take care of that shoulder my Friend!!! I went by your house today 1124 right? Very nice 2 story, really similar to mine!!!Hope the shoulder gets better for you!!!

Sister Emma always has great posts

So, it's still standing, eh? Thanks for the compliment, we enjoyed living there. Shoulder isn't too bad, more of a pestering thing when I'm lifting. Just going to lay off overhead pressing for a while. Keep up the great work, Archie. You are going to look great for your comp.

Archangel · 12-06-2005, 04:14 PM

Sounds like the smart choice, sorry your going through a shoulder problem, those really suck!!! Thanks for the compliment, I sure hope so, wouldn't want to dissapoint anyone!!!

Pylon · 12-06-2005, 07:17 PM

Boiler - Come on, suck it up! Go run a couple of laps, you'll be fine! (That's what my gym coach used to say, anyway...)

Arch - You better not disappoint! There's a buncha people gonna bet there watching you! No pressure, of course...

boilermaker · 12-06-2005, 10:52 PM

Weights: Rotator Cuff Isolation. 9 sets x 8 reps for each shoulder. 3 separate exercises.

Cardio: 25 minutes on treadmill. 3 min. walk to warmup then 1.5 min run/1 min. walk intervals. Run Intervals (mph): 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 7, 6, 5. 3 minute walk cooldown.

Diet:

Meal 1: Bananna/blueberry MR Bar

Meal 2: Shake - 6 oz. skim milk, 1 scoop protein whey, 1/2 cup oats, 1/2 bananna, 1 tbs. NPB

Meal 3: 2 cups Turkey Noodle soup.

Meal 4: PWO Shake - 6 oz. skim milk, 1 scoop protein whey, 1/2 cup oats, 1/2 bananna

Meal 5: 1 cup 2% CC, 1 tbs. NPB

Supplements: 6 fish oil pills, multi-v

Triple Threat · 12-07-2005, 10:41 AM

Shoulder injuries suck. I had one once and it took about 6 months before it was completely healed. It is such a complex joint and it doesn't take much to mess it up.

boilermaker · 12-07-2005, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple Threat

Shoulder injuries suck. I had one once and it took about 6 months before it was completely healed. It is such a complex joint and it doesn't take much to mess it up.

It doesn't hurt any other time than when I'm doing overhead or incline pressing. Doesn't hurt before, or after. Kinda wierd.

Archangel · 12-07-2005, 03:17 PM

Just take care of it my Friend!!!

dougnukem · 12-07-2005, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boilermaker

Where do I find some good detailed info on how to stretch properly?

Here are a few places I found some info at. Hope it helps.

http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/...5/odonnell.htm
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=AtFekj.eK_.../likness22.htm
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=ApwssQN_hR...3/Stretch.html

BritChick · 12-07-2005, 06:11 PM

Ouch, watch that shoulder boiler, my husband has been having problems with his for six months and only in the last week sought medical attention... I dare say he has a long recovery ahead of him.
Good idea laying off the overhead presses.

boilermaker · 12-07-2005, 07:59 PM

Thanks for all the words of caution, people. And the links you provided Nuke. Well, I've been working on putting in a new sink and countertop in the bathroom (Thanks to the wife not liking the original color

) and I didn't get around to the gym tonight. Didn't finish the sink either

. Nothing is ever as easy as you think it will be.

Cardio: None

Weights: None

Diet:

Meal 1: Shake - 6 oz. skim milk, 1/2 cup oats, 1/2 bananna, scoop of protein whey, 1 Tbs. NPB

Meal 2: 5 egg whites, 1 egg, 2 slices ww toast, 1 tbs. light mayo

Meal 3: 2 cups chicken, bean, veggie, pasta dish

Meal 4: Bananna/blueberry MR Bar with 1.5 Tbs. NPB

Supplements: 6 fish oil pills, multi-v

**Emma-Leigh** · 12-07-2005, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boilermaker

I was thinking of trying some cable crossovers for another chest movement to replace incline press and lateral and front raises, as you suggested, for the shoulders.

Sounds good!

Just play around with moves with cables/DBs to find ones that you can do that do not hurt.

There is some basic information on the problems at exrx.net. So you can go to this pageand scroll down to the conditions of the supraspinatus and infraspinatus for some more info. While you are there you might also want to read Posture information regarding Winged Scapula and Protracted Shoulder Girdle... These things can both be linked with poor shoulder health.

Quote:

I've been incorporating rotator cuff exercises once a week on a cardio day for a couple of weeks now. I will definitely continue.

I would probably try to do these 2 x a week. Just light - nothing extreme... Only 6-9 sets total each day.

I am not sure what exercises you were doing but some of the ones I usually recommend are Up-right external rotations and you can also do it this way.

I also recommend cable scaptions or DB scaptions. These are really good for your rear delt and supraspinatus muscle.

There are also exercises described in this ruggedmag article and also some here.

Quote:

Is it the humerus causing this. The pain feels like it is more toward my clavicle than outer arm. Not really in the shoulder, but next to it on the inside.

It can do - the space just at the inside of your shoulder as it joins your body is where the biceps tendon runs - and this can get squashed if your shoulder moves forward if it is unstable... It is also where pain may radiate if you have supraspinatus impingement.

There are some good articles (although they are 'medically' orientated) on the shoulder here with some specific ones on:
Types of injury
Exercises

And also one on Shoulder injuries and weight training plus one on Impingement...

Quote:

My pull dominant workout should be accomplishing this, no?

If you are doing things that are going to be properly targetting your rear delts and teres appropriately - then yes.... If you look at some of the first links I gave (from exrx.net) they will link you to exercises that will help these areas specifically.

Quote:

Where do I find some good detailed info on how to stretch properly?

Ok - I know there is some stretches on exrx.net as well as some here for your shoulder...

But I'll keep my eye out for anything else I come across...

boilermaker · 12-07-2005, 08:53 PM

Good lord, Emma, I wasn't expecting that much information on my questions. Thank you for the time you put into that. I'll read through it all and report back.

Pylon · 12-07-2005, 09:27 PM

I continue to be amazed at the fountain of info that is Emma...BTW, working on a batch of raspberry lemonade gummi worms. Thanks again, Em!

12-05-2005, 04:54 PM	#392
boilermaker On a Mission! Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,290 Photos: 4	Monday - December 5 Cardio: 8 minutes warmup on stationary bike Weights: Upper Body - Push Dominant Assisted Dips: -16# - 8; BW - 8, 7.75 Flat DB Bench: 25# - 8; 55# - 5, 50# -7, 45# - 8 HS Iso Incline Press: 40# - 8, 8, 7 Tricep Pushdown: 140# - 8, 8; 130# - 8; 100# - 8 Overhead DB Press: 30# - 8, 7; 25# - 8 Tricep Extension Machine: 50# - 8, 8, 6 Notes: There is a problem here. On incline presses and overhead presses, I cannot add weight without incurring pain in my left shoulder. The pain is on the inside, right where the clavicle enters the shoulder area. It hurts when I press in all planes if I add weight and it feels like it wants to pop. I don't want to eliminate these exercises, but it looks like I must. I don't want to have a shoulder injury. I've tried nearly every overhead and incline press machine and freeweights and I can't get around it. I need to replace these two exercises with something that is painless. Rest of workout was kind of blah. Had high hopes for going up in weight on flat bench but started to losee control on the 4th rep and had to step back down in weight. Diet: Meal 1: Shake - 6 oz. skim milk, scoop of protein whey, 1/2 bananna, 1/2 cup oats, 1 Tbs. NPB Meal 2: Bananna/blueberry MR Bar Meal 3: Chicken breast with veggie brown rice meal 4: PWO Shake - 6 oz. skim milk, scoop of protein whey, 1/2 bananna, 1/2 cup oats Meal 5: 1/2 can salmon, 1 cup sweet potatoes, 2 stalks of celery w/1 tbs. NPB Supplements: 6 fish oil pills, multi-v Notes: I think I'm going to cut back to 5 meals per day to reduce my caloric intake. I've kind of been stalled in my cut down the past couple of weeks.
	My Journal: Are We Almost There Yet?

12-06-2005, 02:12 AM	#393
boilermaker On a Mission! Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,290 Photos: 4	Traveling to Indiana today for work. Will try to keep diet in check. Lots of protein powder, Edit: appointment cancelled. Yeah!!!!, don't have to drive 500 miles today. Last edited by boilermaker : 12-06-2005 at 06:00 AM.
	My Journal: Are We Almost There Yet?

12-06-2005, 06:49 AM	#394
Rocco32 UNLEASH THE BEAST Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 22,316 Photos: 18	Nice w/o. Your pain in the shoulders could be coming from impingement because of the dips. Just a guess, I know that bothers me. Not necessarily when I do dips but afterwards with other exercises. Be careful buddy.
	I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain...

12-06-2005, 11:20 AM	#395
gwcaton Lookin' for abs ! Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: central missouri Posts: 9,271 Photos: 28	Nice wo Boiler, great job on the tri pushdowns Watch that shoulder ! Deadbolt use to do some exercises of somekind for his shoulder. Might search his journal or pm him.
	My Last Journal Before The One You're Reading Now Old Journals : My P/RR/S Journal My GWcaton Journal My Bulking Journal Just remember, when you think you're done you've just started . DEADBOLT . 2005

12-06-2005, 11:39 AM	#396
Burner02 Super Hero in Training Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tip of the spear! Posts: 28,316	u did dips before your chest? Maybe put that towards the end 1) pre-exhausted your tris...less able to push on the bench 2) might have given the joints / muscles more time to warm up? otherwise, looks good!
	Success leaves clues. People who produce outstanding results do specific things to create those results Nobody cares what you did yesterday or what you are going to do tomorrow. What is important is what you are doing NOW to solve our problem THERE IS NO TOMORROW! - Appollo Creed

12-06-2005, 01:45 PM	#397
boilermaker On a Mission! Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,290 Photos: 4	Rocco: Thanks for the encouragement. It's just my left shoulder, but I don't really understand what impingement, so maybe you are on to something. GW: Thanks, but I think I might be starting a little high on those. I really try to keep my elbows tucked in to my body and stationary but I was feeling some work in my shoulders. That's why I dropped down in weight at the end. I've been doing some rotator cuff exercises once a week, but I'll keep the deadbolt advice in mind. Burner: But I like the dips. It's one exercise where I've made measureable progress and I like that. I think you are right about the pre-exhaust thing but I was warmed up before the pain on the inclines. Thanks for dropping in.
	My Journal: Are We Almost There Yet?

12-06-2005, 01:49 PM	#398
Burner02 Super Hero in Training Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tip of the spear! Posts: 28,316	I like dips too! sour cream and ranch with dill is good...ooohhh...wait.... I either do dips or CG bench as my main tri builder. (one,one week, the next the other, rotate) Are you straight up and down, or are you leaning in?
	Success leaves clues. People who produce outstanding results do specific things to create those results Nobody cares what you did yesterday or what you are going to do tomorrow. What is important is what you are doing NOW to solve our problem THERE IS NO TOMORROW! - Appollo Creed

12-06-2005, 03:32 PM	#399
Emma-Leigh Acting Normal... Moderator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Different shades of black Posts: 5,554	Hey Steve... It certainly sounds like you are having serious impingement issues. I would suggest you drop all overhead movements and do not do anything that hurts for a while. For your shoulders, you can do lateral raises and things that are under shoulder height (front raises, rear delt rows etc) - as long as they do not aggravate it. I would incorporate some rotator cuff exercises - simple strength work in external rotation that will help to draw the head of your humerus back into the shoulder socket and away from those tendons at the front of the joint. Just remember that for these to be effective you have to lift the weight AGAINST gravity - So things like light cuban press, up-right DB external rotations, cable external rotations. You might want to start to incorporate some stretching for your anterior shoulder muscles (so stretch your chest out) and specifically work on your back to get your rear delts/lats/teres major etc etc strong so they hold your shoulder back too. I would consider going and seeing a good physiotherapist too - you don't want to mess around with your rotator - if you get a big injury it can stick and ruin your lifting for months/years....
	~

12-06-2005, 04:04 PM	#401
Archangel High Intensity Freak Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Intensity Island Posts: 10,178 Photos: 4	Sister Emma had a great post, take care of that shoulder my Friend!!! I went by your house today 1124 right? Very nice 2 story, really similar to mine!!!Hope the shoulder gets better for you!!!
	"I can do ALL things through Christ, who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13 "For NOTHING is impossible with GOD" - Luke 1:37

12-06-2005, 04:14 PM	#403
Archangel High Intensity Freak Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Intensity Island Posts: 10,178 Photos: 4	Sounds like the smart choice, sorry your going through a shoulder problem, those really suck!!! Thanks for the compliment, I sure hope so, wouldn't want to dissapoint anyone!!!
	"I can do ALL things through Christ, who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13 "For NOTHING is impossible with GOD" - Luke 1:37

12-06-2005, 07:17 PM	#404
Pylon Squishy Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Top 5!!! Posts: 6,473 Photos: 3	Boiler - Come on, suck it up! Go run a couple of laps, you'll be fine! (That's what my gym coach used to say, anyway...) Arch - You better not disappoint! There's a buncha people gonna bet there watching you! No pressure, of course...
	"For beverages, I only drink water or whiskey and when I’m drinking whiskey, it’s usually when I’m working out. It gives me the courage to lift more than I can when I’m sober." - C. Bratton

12-06-2005, 10:52 PM	#405
boilermaker On a Mission! Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,290 Photos: 4	Tuesday - December 6 Weights: Rotator Cuff Isolation. 9 sets x 8 reps for each shoulder. 3 separate exercises. Cardio: 25 minutes on treadmill. 3 min. walk to warmup then 1.5 min run/1 min. walk intervals. Run Intervals (mph): 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 7, 6, 5. 3 minute walk cooldown. Diet: Meal 1: Bananna/blueberry MR Bar Meal 2: Shake - 6 oz. skim milk, 1 scoop protein whey, 1/2 cup oats, 1/2 bananna, 1 tbs. NPB Meal 3: 2 cups Turkey Noodle soup. Meal 4: PWO Shake - 6 oz. skim milk, 1 scoop protein whey, 1/2 cup oats, 1/2 bananna Meal 5: 1 cup 2% CC, 1 tbs. NPB Supplements: 6 fish oil pills, multi-v
	My Journal: Are We Almost There Yet?

12-07-2005, 10:41 AM	#406
Triple Threat ... Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lost Posts: 9,474 Photos: 6	Shoulder injuries suck. I had one once and it took about 6 months before it was completely healed. It is such a complex joint and it doesn't take much to mess it up.

12-07-2005, 03:17 PM	#408
Archangel High Intensity Freak Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Intensity Island Posts: 10,178 Photos: 4	Just take care of it my Friend!!!
	"I can do ALL things through Christ, who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13 "For NOTHING is impossible with GOD" - Luke 1:37

12-07-2005, 06:11 PM	#410
BritChick Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: BC Canada Posts: 5,449 Photos: 7	Ouch, watch that shoulder boiler, my husband has been having problems with his for six months and only in the last week sought medical attention... I dare say he has a long recovery ahead of him. Good idea laying off the overhead presses.

12-07-2005, 07:59 PM	#411
boilermaker On a Mission! Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,290 Photos: 4	Thanks for all the words of caution, people. And the links you provided Nuke. Well, I've been working on putting in a new sink and countertop in the bathroom (Thanks to the wife not liking the original color ) and I didn't get around to the gym tonight. Didn't finish the sink either . Nothing is ever as easy as you think it will be. Cardio: None Weights: None Diet: Meal 1: Shake - 6 oz. skim milk, 1/2 cup oats, 1/2 bananna, scoop of protein whey, 1 Tbs. NPB Meal 2: 5 egg whites, 1 egg, 2 slices ww toast, 1 tbs. light mayo Meal 3: 2 cups chicken, bean, veggie, pasta dish Meal 4: Bananna/blueberry MR Bar with 1.5 Tbs. NPB Supplements: 6 fish oil pills, multi-v
	My Journal: Are We Almost There Yet?

12-07-2005, 08:53 PM	#413
boilermaker On a Mission! Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,290 Photos: 4	Good lord, Emma, I wasn't expecting that much information on my questions. Thank you for the time you put into that. I'll read through it all and report back.
	My Journal: Are We Almost There Yet?

12-07-2005, 09:27 PM	#414
Pylon Squishy Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Top 5!!! Posts: 6,473 Photos: 3	I continue to be amazed at the fountain of info that is Emma...BTW, working on a batch of raspberry lemonade gummi worms. Thanks again, Em!
	"For beverages, I only drink water or whiskey and when I’m drinking whiskey, it’s usually when I’m working out. It gives me the courage to lift more than I can when I’m sober." - C. Bratton

12-08-2005, 12:19 AM	#415
b_reed23 this is why I'm hot! Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 5,241