New Gym, new program...

JerseyDevil · 07-24-2006, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fUnc17

i live about 25min from C. Hill. right by belmar.

You mean Bellmawr? I'm in West Deptford.

**Dale Mabry** · 07-25-2006, 04:06 PM

Today-

30 second RI
High Step-ups-BW 4x15
Standing DB Press-30s 4x15
Lat Pulldown-100 4x15

Cardio-30/90 seconds 11.5mph, 3.5mph 2.72 miles

Treadmill was not getting all the way up to 11.5mph, usually around 11.1mph. C'est la vie.

**Dale Mabry** · 07-26-2006, 01:54 PM

Cardio 20 minutes treadmill-4 minute warm up, 16 minutes at 7.0mph, 2.21 miles.

fUnc17 · 07-26-2006, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerseyDevil

You mean Bellmawr? I'm in West Deptford.

No not belmawr, belmar. as in belmar beach, near asbury park. may be longer than 25min, havent been to cherry hill in a long time

Devlin · 07-26-2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fUnc17

No not belmawr, belmar. as in belmar beach, near asbury park. may be longer than 25min, havent been to cherry hill in a long time

It's longer than 25 minutes. It was 60+ miles from where I lived in Cherry Hill to the Garden State Parkway exit at 195 in Lakewood. You aren't missing much, Last time I visited Cherry Hill, it reminded me how happy I was to no longer live there.

Triple Threat · 07-26-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devlin

Last time I visited Cherry Hill, it reminded me how happy I was to no longer live there.

I used to stay in Cherry Hill when I was working in NJ. It seemed like a decent place (at least in the area where I was staying), plus it was convenient to go to Philly. Of course, that was almost 30 years ago, so things could have changed in that time.

JerseyDevil · 07-26-2006, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fUnc17

No not belmawr, belmar. as in belmar beach, near asbury park. may be longer than 25min, havent been to cherry hill in a long time

Yeah, you are a lot farther away then 25 minutes. Bellmawr by me is 15-20 minutes away from Cherry Hill.

JerseyDevil · 07-26-2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devlin

It's longer than 25 minutes. It was 60+ miles from where I lived in Cherry Hill to the Garden State Parkway exit at 195 in Lakewood. You aren't missing much, Last time I visited Cherry Hill, it reminded me how happy I was to no longer live there.

It's hard to defend NJ isn't it?

I grew up in Virginia, then lived in Ohio for 17 years. I have been in southern NJ for 8 years now. Although I don't love NJ, it's not that bad. I think life is a little better south of the 42 expressway. Cherry Hill/Mt Laurel/Moorestown is super crowded and getting worse everyday.

Devlin · 07-26-2006, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerseyDevil

It's hard to defend NJ isn't it?

I grew up in Virginia, then lived in Ohio for 17 years. I have been in southern NJ for 8 years now. Although I don't love NJ, it's not that bad. I think life is a little better south of the 42 expressway. Cherry Hill/Mt Laurel/Moorestown is super crowded and getting worse everyday.

Not to mention the property taxes

My sister decided to sell her house in Cherry HIll because her mortgage payment nearly doubled due to the property taxes (her taxes are included in her mortgage payment so the payment is variable due to the taxes). Mt Laurel is even worse and Moorestown has to be as bad if not worse than Mt Laurel.

**P-funk** · 07-26-2006, 08:09 PM

Okay, time to bounce some ideas around in David's journal.

In the CES textbook, Mike Clark talks about static stretching prior to a workout. He then provides a number of studies which show that it IS actually beneficial even though there is one (only one study compared to a shit ton) that shows that it decreases power. He then goes on to say that when integrated properly, the static stretching can help to warm up the area before moving to dynamic stretching which, loosens up the joint capsule, prepares the muscles for extreme ROM, and excites the CNS to a much greater degree via the stretch relflex.

Now, I am all for someone whos is a complete train wreck, static stretching pre-workout, as a means to correct their all ready fucked up body.

But what about the athletes? (even though some of them are fucking train wrecks too).

Mike Clark is not the first person I have heard say this. Mike Boyle is a strong believer in static stretching followed by dynamic stretching as a warm up (both preceed by soft tissue work just as Mike Clark advocates). The strength coach at Ohio State Univ. says the same thing....static then dynamic. The coach of the olympic lifting team i used to be on (all thought a dip fuck and not a very good coach at all) says the same thing. Leo Totten, USA weightligting national coach, says the same thing too.

What I am getting at is......is static stretching really as bad as we think for warming up? I don't think it is awful, as Mike Clark says "if it is intergrated the right way". I actually think the set up in the CES text is pretty good as a warm up....soft tissue work, static, dynamic movement, strength train.

what do you think?

topolo · 07-26-2006, 08:39 PM

I have heard Mike Boyle discuss this before and I agree with it.

**CowPimp** · 07-26-2006, 09:13 PM

I think that static stretching should be done whenever the fuck people will do it. I have my clients do static stretches while resting in between sets. That way it doesn't really take up any time in the session; we use their rest time to get some flexibility training in there. Pretty much everyone I train needs it, and needs it BAD.

**Dale Mabry** · 07-27-2006, 07:08 AM

I think it depends. I like the CES layout in that you stretch what needs to be stretched, and leave the other shit alone. I know some days I don't need to statically stretch before working out, and others I need to stretch out the posterior chain big time. I think that when I work out early in the am, my hammies and calves need to be stretched because of the way I sleep. Later on in the day, not so much.

I look at the static stretching in the CES manual as prehab prior to a workout, and not the same as static stretching after a workout in that the intention is that the response before a workout is acute and the hope is that static stretching after a workout will lead to chronic adaptaptations. As such, I don't really see the need to stretch for a full 30 seconds at a time during my pre-workout static stretching because 15 seconds is typically sufficient. I think that is the key, why stretch for 30 seconds when 15 seconds is fine, you could inhibit the muscle when there is no need to do so. With clients who are always tight, I think you hit 30 second+ stretches both times. With my older clients, I pretty much do it all at the beginning and maybe a little at the end. Even if the "decrease in power" claims are true, with older peeps, I think it is more important that they express lower levels of strength over the full range of motion than if they are slightly stronger over 80% of the ROM. I guess it would be the same for the very tight athlete, because tight muscles that are weak at some point snap easier.

**P-funk** · 07-27-2006, 07:39 AM

yea, I agree with the 15sec hold and stretching what needs to be stretch and leaving the other shit alone.

Pimp- Boyle does the same thing, by incorporating a stretch with a group of exercise. he calls it a squat set:

a1) lower body movement
a2) upper body movement
a3) stabilization exercise
a4) stretch
rest;repeat

Good discussion guys. The next piece of the puzzle is.....Why do you think that that ONE study (the one everyone references) showed a decrease in power output and the others did not?

The coach at OSU told me that he wished someone would do a study on the power output following a warm up consisting of static stretching followed directly by dynamic mobility/stretching.....then he told me I should do it....then I asked him if he would fund it...lol

**Dale Mabry** · 07-27-2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

yea, I agree with the 15sec hold and stretching what needs to be stretch and leaving the other shit alone.

Pimp- Boyle does the same thing, by incorporating a stretch with a group of exercise. he calls it a squat set:

a1) lower body movement
a2) upper body movement
a3) stabilization exercise
a4) stretch
rest;repeat

Good discussion guys. The next piece of the puzzle is.....Why do you think that that ONE study (the one everyone references) showed a decrease in power output and the others did not?

The coach at OSU told me that he wished someone would do a study on the power output following a warm up consisting of static stretching followed directly by dynamic mobility/stretching.....then he told me I should do it....then I asked him if he would fund it...lol

Could have to do with intensity, duration, could have to do with stretching a muscle that wasn't tight, could have been study design. I think there are actually 4 studies, but 1 had a decent design and such. The only problem was that 55% showed a decrease in vert velocity, 35% showed an increase, and 10% showed no change. I think the variability in results points to a subject variable that wasn't controlled for (Experience, flexibility, age, etc). The study was Knudson et al., 2001 in the Journal of Strength and Conditioing research (That was for ForeskinRules even though I am certain he doesn't work out).

**CowPimp** · 07-27-2006, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

yea, I agree with the 15sec hold and stretching what needs to be stretch and leaving the other shit alone.

Seriously, most people I encounter need to stretch their entire body's 20 minutes a day. Maybe the clients I get are just particularly bad, but goddamn. I would say 80% or more of my clients have serious hip/ankle flexibility problems and could use at least minor improvements in shoulder/wrist flexibility.

I have never seen so many kyphosis bearing slouch boxes in one place. It disgusts me when I see trainers working chest one day, shoulders another day, and back/legs crammed together on one day with nothing but leg curls for the posterior chain. I want to smack the shit out of them. HELLO, YOUR CLIENT CAN'T STAND UP STRAIGHT, STOP BENCH PRESSING NOW GODDAMMIT.

End rant.

**Dale Mabry** · 07-27-2006, 10:22 AM

Today-

Bench Throw-70+bar 4x4

Endurance-30 sec RI
Squat-135 4x12
Bench-135 4x12
BB Row-115 4x12

GHR-3x10

Focused on getting as close to the top with the squats as possible and then going right back in to the eccentric with no pause for every rep, burn burn.

Did 10 minutes of cardio, today was supposed to be off for cardio, but I didn't remember until 9 minutes in so I did 10 for shits and giggles.

**P-funk** · 07-27-2006, 10:28 AM

weren't you doing 15 reps for the same amount of sets for the same exercises a few weeks ago in MASS?

**Dale Mabry** · 07-27-2006, 10:33 AM

Yeah, I have been doing that since then on muscular endurance days, just dropped the reps a touch today to give myself a break.

**P-funk** · 07-27-2006, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Yeah, I have been doing that since then on muscular endurance days, just dropped the reps a touch today to give myself a break.

pu$$y

**Dale Mabry** · 07-27-2006, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

pu$$y

I noticed when I stopped counting out 30 seconds and when I bought a watch and timed 30 seconds that it got alot harder, too.

**P-funk** · 07-27-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I noticed when I stopped counting out 30 seconds and when I bought a watch and timed 30 seconds that it got alot harder, too.

lol.

finally able to buy a watch after all that $$ we made at the camp?

**Dale Mabry** · 07-27-2006, 12:39 PM

No, I just hate all jewelry.

topolo · 07-27-2006, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

No, I just hate all jewelry.

even cock rings?

JerseyDevil · 07-27-2006, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

The strength coach at Ohio State Univ. says the same thing....static then dynamic.

Then it MUST be true. GO BUCKEYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

07-25-2006, 04:06 PM	#32
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,676 Photos: 10	Today- 30 second RI High Step-ups-BW 4x15 Standing DB Press-30s 4x15 Lat Pulldown-100 4x15 Cardio-30/90 seconds 11.5mph, 3.5mph 2.72 miles Treadmill was not getting all the way up to 11.5mph, usually around 11.1mph. C'est la vie.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

07-26-2006, 01:54 PM	#33
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,676 Photos: 10	Cardio 20 minutes treadmill-4 minute warm up, 16 minutes at 7.0mph, 2.21 miles.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

07-26-2006, 08:09 PM	#40
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,136	Okay, time to bounce some ideas around in David's journal. In the CES textbook, Mike Clark talks about static stretching prior to a workout. He then provides a number of studies which show that it IS actually beneficial even though there is one (only one study compared to a shit ton) that shows that it decreases power. He then goes on to say that when integrated properly, the static stretching can help to warm up the area before moving to dynamic stretching which, loosens up the joint capsule, prepares the muscles for extreme ROM, and excites the CNS to a much greater degree via the stretch relflex. Now, I am all for someone whos is a complete train wreck, static stretching pre-workout, as a means to correct their all ready fucked up body. But what about the athletes? (even though some of them are fucking train wrecks too). Mike Clark is not the first person I have heard say this. Mike Boyle is a strong believer in static stretching followed by dynamic stretching as a warm up (both preceed by soft tissue work just as Mike Clark advocates). The strength coach at Ohio State Univ. says the same thing....static then dynamic. The coach of the olympic lifting team i used to be on (all thought a dip fuck and not a very good coach at all) says the same thing. Leo Totten, USA weightligting national coach, says the same thing too. What I am getting at is......is static stretching really as bad as we think for warming up? I don't think it is awful, as Mike Clark says "if it is intergrated the right way". I actually think the set up in the CES text is pretty good as a warm up....soft tissue work, static, dynamic movement, strength train. what do you think?
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

07-26-2006, 09:13 PM	#42
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,375	I think that static stretching should be done whenever the fuck people will do it. I have my clients do static stretches while resting in between sets. That way it doesn't really take up any time in the session; we use their rest time to get some flexibility training in there. Pretty much everyone I train needs it, and needs it BAD.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace

07-27-2006, 07:08 AM	#43
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,676 Photos: 10	I think it depends. I like the CES layout in that you stretch what needs to be stretched, and leave the other shit alone. I know some days I don't need to statically stretch before working out, and others I need to stretch out the posterior chain big time. I think that when I work out early in the am, my hammies and calves need to be stretched because of the way I sleep. Later on in the day, not so much. I look at the static stretching in the CES manual as prehab prior to a workout, and not the same as static stretching after a workout in that the intention is that the response before a workout is acute and the hope is that static stretching after a workout will lead to chronic adaptaptations. As such, I don't really see the need to stretch for a full 30 seconds at a time during my pre-workout static stretching because 15 seconds is typically sufficient. I think that is the key, why stretch for 30 seconds when 15 seconds is fine, you could inhibit the muscle when there is no need to do so. With clients who are always tight, I think you hit 30 second+ stretches both times. With my older clients, I pretty much do it all at the beginning and maybe a little at the end. Even if the "decrease in power" claims are true, with older peeps, I think it is more important that they express lower levels of strength over the full range of motion than if they are slightly stronger over 80% of the ROM. I guess it would be the same for the very tight athlete, because tight muscles that are weak at some point snap easier.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

07-27-2006, 07:39 AM	#44
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,136	yea, I agree with the 15sec hold and stretching what needs to be stretch and leaving the other shit alone. Pimp- Boyle does the same thing, by incorporating a stretch with a group of exercise. he calls it a squat set: a1) lower body movement a2) upper body movement a3) stabilization exercise a4) stretch rest;repeat Good discussion guys. The next piece of the puzzle is.....Why do you think that that ONE study (the one everyone references) showed a decrease in power output and the others did not? The coach at OSU told me that he wished someone would do a study on the power output following a warm up consisting of static stretching followed directly by dynamic mobility/stretching.....then he told me I should do it....then I asked him if he would fund it...lol
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

07-27-2006, 10:22 AM	#47
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,676 Photos: 10	Today- Bench Throw-70+bar 4x4 Endurance-30 sec RI Squat-135 4x12 Bench-135 4x12 BB Row-115 4x12 GHR-3x10 Focused on getting as close to the top with the squats as possible and then going right back in to the eccentric with no pause for every rep, burn burn. Did 10 minutes of cardio, today was supposed to be off for cardio, but I didn't remember until 9 minutes in so I did 10 for shits and giggles. Last edited by Dale Mabry : 07-27-2006 at 12:39 PM.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

07-27-2006, 10:28 AM	#48
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,136	weren't you doing 15 reps for the same amount of sets for the same exercises a few weeks ago in MASS?
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

07-27-2006, 10:33 AM	#49
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,676 Photos: 10	Yeah, I have been doing that since then on muscular endurance days, just dropped the reps a touch today to give myself a break.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

07-27-2006, 12:39 PM	#53
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,676 Photos: 10	No, I just hate all jewelry.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

07-27-2006, 07:09 PM	#56
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,136