Gay Rights Groups Take On Mormons

**min0 lee** · 05-29-2009, 03:27 PM

Bio vs. Tallcall or maybe Bio and Tallcall.....

Gay Rights Groups Take On Mormons - CBS News
As more states take up the debate on same-sex marriage, some advocates of legalization are taking a very specific lesson from California, where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints dominated both fundraising and door-knocking to pass a ballot initiative that barred such unions.

With the battle moving east, some advocates are shouting that fact in the streets, calculating that on an issue that eventually comes down to comfort levels, more people harbor apprehension about Mormons than about homosexuality.

"The Mormons are coming! The Mormons are coming!" warned ads placed on newspaper Web sites in three Eastern states last month. The ad was rejected by sites in three other states, including Maine, where the Kennebec Journal informed Californians Against Hate that the copy "borders on insulting and denigrating a whole set of people based on their religion."

"I'm not intending it to harm the religion. I think they do wonderful things. Nicest people," said Fred Karger, a former Republican campaign consultant who established Californians Against Hate. "My single goal is to get them out of the same-sex marriage business and back to helping hurricane victims."

The strategy carries risks for a movement grounded in the concept of tolerance. But the demographics tempt proponents of same-sex marriage: Mormons account for just 2 percent of the U.S. population, and they are scarce outside the West. Nearly eight in 10 Americans personally know or work with a gay person, according to a recent Newsweek survey. Only 48 percent, meanwhile, know a Mormon, according to a Pew Research Center poll.

Many Mormons also acknowledge a problematic public profile that could make it difficult for them to lead the fight against same-sex marriage. A 2008 poll by Gary C. Lawrence, author of "How Americans View Mormonism: Seven Steps to Improve Our Image," found that for every American who expresses a strong liking for Mormons, four express a strong dislike. Among the traits widely ascribed to Mormons in the poll were "narrow-minded" and "controlling." Just ask Min0.

"We're upside down on our image," said Lawrence, who organized Mormon volunteers in California, where on a typical Saturday 25,000 turned out to knock on doors. "People have misperceptions of us because of ignorance, because of the history of polygamy, and because we organize quickly, which scares some people."

Mormon officials have tried to stay out of the controversy that followed the California vote, when the church's prominent role in the marriage fight became clear. A spokeswoman in Salt Lake City declined to say whether the church is involved in debates going on in states such as New Jersey and New York, except to say that leaders remain intent on preserving the "divine institution" of marriage between man and woman. The faith holds that traditional marriage "transcends this world" and is necessary for "the fullness of joy in the next life."

The church has a top-down hierarchy that answers to the First Presidency, who also holds the status of prophet. Last June, congregations were read his letter urging that "you do all you can" to pass the California initiative, known as Proposition 8. Lawrence, who like Karger worked as a Republican political consultant, professed no concern about the effort to shift the focus away from the definition of marriage.

"He is demonizing the opposition. It's Political Consulting 101," Lawrence said of Karger. "The average guy does not know the extent to which the Mormon Church was involved on Prop. 8."

The proponents' strategy is grounded in a stubborn reality: While the number of states legalizing same-sex marriage is slowly increasing -- Maine recently became the fifth -- in every case the agent of change was either a court or a legislature. Voters have rejected the idea wherever it has appeared on a ballot.

The election results track public opinion nationwide. Polls consistently show that while a majority of Americans support some legal recognition of gay unions, more want to keep marriage reserved for a man and a woman.

The disparity is narrow and shrinking, however, and in California, Mormons may well have made the difference on Proposition 8, which nullified a decision by the state Supreme Court that legalized same-sex marriage.

A torrent of last-minute contributions from church members across the country financed well-framed TV ads in the final weekend of the campaign. Opponents' analysis of campaign-contribution reports indicated that Mormons contributed more than half of the campaign's $40 million war chest.

"The church's position on the issue of same-sex marriage is well known and well documented," church spokeswoman Kim Farah said by e-mail. She declined to comment on estimates from individual Mormons but emphasized that the church itself made no cash contribution. It reported "in-kind" contributions of $190,000, mostly in the form of staff members' time.

Rick Jacobs, director of the Courage Campaign, an advocacy group that produced a TV ad drawing attention to the Mormons' role in the campaign, said, "We have zero interest in demonizing anybody who believes in any religion."

In the spot, a pair of Mormon missionaries knock on the door of a lesbian couple, rifle their drawers and shred their marriage certificate in front of them.

Mormons "exist and flourish in this country because of the concept of equal protection," Jacob said, noting the persecution that drove members of the church to Utah in the 19th century. "I find it just an irreconcilable hypocrisy that a group that rightly thrives within the essence of the American system would seek to repress and deny rights to another. And it's even a little worse, because I certainly didn't choose to be gay. People make choices to be Mormons, or any other religion."

Mormon officials issued statements calling for "civility" in the wake of Proposition 8. "The Church has refused to be goaded into a Mormons versus gays battle and has simply stated its position in tones that are reasonable and respectful," one statement said.

Suspicions that the church may be working behind the scenes in other states are encouraged by documents showing efforts by the church to cloak its participation in a late-1990s campaign that led to a ban on same-sex marriage in Hawaii.

"We have organized things so the Church contribution was used in an area of coalition activity that does not have to be reported," a senior Mormon official wrote in one document Karger posted on his Web site, and the church has not disputed.

Mormon headquarters contributed $400,000 in an effort to persuade Hawaiians against same-sex marriage but urged the Roman Catholics to take the lead in a group dubbed Hawaii's Future Today after polls showed that the other church had better public acceptance. A decade after the 1998 Hawaii vote against gay marriage, Lawrence wrote that the image problem remained: "The collection of negatives they are willing to apply to us suggests that they view us as a growing threat."

That works for Karger, whose specialty at his consulting group was opposition research. "People will vote for someone because they like so and so, or because they don't like the other guy," said Karger, who entered gay activism to preserve the Boom Boom Room, a gay bar in Newport Beach, Calif.

And favorability ratings declined for Mormons over the last year, Lawrence said, from 42 percent to 37.

"Is it fruitful to use the Mormon bogey?" said Mark Silk, a professor of religion and public life at Trinity College in Connecticut. "My sense is that there aren't great risks to it. Once a religious institution is going to inject itself into a public fight, which the LDS did in a straight-up way, then I think people are prepared to say, 'Well, okay, you're on that side and we're against you.'"

By Washington Post Staff Writer Karl Vick
© 2009 The Washington Post Company

**QuestionGuy** · 05-29-2009, 04:29 PM

I live in Utah, and you know what, its getin really stupid....why the fuck are we givin those idiots so much attention......Im really a liberal conservative (if there is such a thing)....I think that gay couples should get the same respect as others, if they live together they should be geting same benefits and be treated the same, BUT, jesus PLEASE DON'T LET THEM GET MARRIED, it would mess everything up and it's not right, marrige is between a man and a woman (just my opinion).....this issue had nothing to do wiht the Mormons, mormons are not they only religion that prohibit gay behavior.....This is just freaking stupid.......be gay all you wan't just shut the fuck up already, we get it your gay we really get it, now go away....

**QuestionGuy** · 05-29-2009, 04:31 PM

ALSO I FORGOT: We are already the laughing stock of the world wiht our stupid politically correct ways and idiotic rules and laws in this "free country" i repeat " ".....dont make us look like a joke even more by allowing this.........Im by no means anti gay, but just anti gay marrige..

**vader** · 05-29-2009, 05:43 PM

preach it brother

**maniclion** · 05-29-2009, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by QuestionGuy

I live in Utah, and you know what, its getin really stupid....why the fuck are we givin those idiots so much attention......Im really a liberal conservative (if there is such a thing)....I think that gay couples should get the same respect as others, if they live together they should be geting same benefits and be treated the same, BUT, jesus PLEASE DON'T LET THEM GET MARRIED, it would mess everything up and it's not right, marrige is between a man and a woman (just my opinion).....this issue had nothing to do wiht the Mormons, mormons are not they only religion that prohibit gay behavior.....This is just freaking stupid.......be gay all you wan't just shut the fuck up already, we get it your gay we really get it, now go away....

You are just frightened that if they become accepted and viewed as normal you will come out of the closet......

**busyLivin** · 05-29-2009, 05:59 PM

These people are chicken shits. Take on the blacks who overwhelmingly voted against Prop 8.... 70 percent.

They won't.. it's easy to pick on the Christians. If they had one brain among them, they'd realize that Obama won a landslide in California. Far-right Christians didn't vote for Obama, so a shitload of people outside the Mormons voted against Prop 8.

It's all smoke in mirrors. I think their a bunch of cowards... they can't battle blacks, but they can hammer Christians & everyone is fine with it.

I'm not singling out blacks, just this hypocrisy.

**bio-chem** · 05-29-2009, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Bio vs. Tallcall or maybe Bio and Tallcall.....

[url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/29/politics/washingtonpost/main5049208.shtml]
Among the traits widely ascribed to Mormons in the poll were "narrow-minded" and "controlling." Just ask Min0.

i knew it was there somewhere.

**bio-chem** · 05-29-2009, 06:22 PM

If the gay rights activists want to come after us. Bring it. they just may find their opposition more solidified than before. Mormons will come out looking stronger than before.

twice a year the LDS church gathers in salt lake for a general conference. As i live in Utah ive been lucky enough to go for the last few years. Every conference people come from all over the country to protest outside of the conference hall and tell us why we are not Christian. it is actually rather amusing. Because of proposition 8 there was word that the protests were going to be even worse. not only would there be other religious denominations protesting our conference, but now there would be gay rights activists as well. Guess what? i didn't see one gay activist, and there were less overall protesters as well. bringing attention the the LDS faith and trying to paint us as a negative doesn't help. like the article states we are the ones that help out with the hurricanes.

**I Are Baboon** · 05-29-2009, 06:28 PM

A-Rod and Jeter.

**min0 lee** · 05-29-2009, 06:35 PM

Christian card?

**bio-chem** · 05-29-2009, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Christian card?

eh?

**maniclion** · 05-29-2009, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by busyLivin

These people are chicken shits. Take on the blacks who overwhelmingly voted against Prop 8.... 70 percent.

They won't.. it's easy to pick on the Christians. If they had one brain among them, they'd realize that Obama won a landslide in California. Far-right Christians didn't vote for Obama, so a shitload of people outside the Mormons voted against Prop 8.

It's all smoke in mirrors. I think their a bunch of cowards... they can't battle blacks, but they can hammer Christians & everyone is fine with it.

I'm not singling out blacks, just this hypocrisy.

A whole lot of Black folk are Jesus freaks, in fact in the town in Texas where I lived there were as many black churches as there were white churches even though whites out numbered them 5 to 1.

**QuestionGuy** · 05-29-2009, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by maniclion

You are just frightened that if they become accepted and viewed as normal you will come out of the closet......

Yes, and when I come out, im comming straight for you, I will tickle your ass just the way you always imagined it....

**ROID** · 05-29-2009, 08:31 PM

Gays, negros, jews, gentiles, and dirty HOs shouldn't have any rights.

WHITE POWER

**bio-chem** · 05-29-2009, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by ROID

Gays, negros, jews, gentiles, and dirty HOs shouldn't have any rights.

WHITE POWER

**KelJu** · 05-29-2009, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by maniclion

A whole lot of Black folk are Jesus freaks, in fact in the town in Texas where I lived there were as many black churches as there were white churches even though whites out numbered them 5 to 1.

Yeah, but when Busy talks about his fellow Christians he is only talking about the white straight ones.

**busyLivin** · 05-30-2009, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by KelJu

Yeah, but when Busy talks about his fellow Christians he is only talking about the white straight ones.

welcome back to the political threads you supposedly quit. At least come back with something relevant.

**tallcall** · 05-30-2009, 03:57 AM

I can't stand the fact that such a large group was filled with so much hate as to single out a small group of people. I don't have a problem with Mormons or any religious group and would urge people to respect their right to exist and do what they do. Protests are best done around government buildings anyways. I believe in being hospitable towards others, I like to play with Mormons (I know a few and I believe they deserve equal rights and be allowed to marry whoever they wish....even other Mormons

) and am very open with everyone - I think my boy would want it that way, so I do it just for him.

I love guys like Busy and Bio-chem - I can have a good argument with them and not think that some retard is back there spewing out random "Obama Is LORD......Brains.....Brains.....CHANGE (but not too quickly because that would be terrible and we must continue to implement old and corrupt policies that degrade human life in an effort to appear to preserve our own way of life while destroying everything else...whew..)" answers. I like debates and love to hear from Manic, Min0, Busy, Bio, Kelju, ROID, Iron A-Dick-t

, and of course, myself

.

**KelJu** · 05-30-2009, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by busyLivin

welcome back to the political threads you supposedly quit. At least come back with something relevant.

I have nothing relevant to say, because there is nothing relevant to say about this discussion that hasn't already been said.

I took a look at this thread to see what bio-chem had to say. I don't respect Bio-chem's religion, but I do respect his ideas. Sadly this thread offered nothing but what sounds like high school kids in a talking match because they are afraid to fight.

"Oh what? You wanna take me on...you better bring it than, cause we are ready for war! Oh, you think you are ready for war, we have been ready for war!"

I'll end with this picture.

**bio-chem** · 05-30-2009, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by KelJu

I have nothing relevant to say, because there is nothing relevant to say about this discussion that hasn't already been said.

I took a look at this thread to see what bio-chem had to say. I don't respect Bio-chem's religion, but I do respect his ideas. Sadly this thread offered nothing but what sounds like high school kids in a talking match because they are afraid to fight.

"Oh what? You wanna take me on...you better bring it than, cause we are ready for war! Oh, you think you are ready for war, we have been ready for war!"

I'll end with this picture.

you make a fair point KelJu. this is just how things are when the issue is as close to 50/50 as you can get.

**bio-chem** · 05-30-2009, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by tallcall

I can't stand the fact that such a large group was filled with so much hate as to single out a small group of people. I don't have a problem with Mormons or any religious group and would urge people to respect their right to exist and do what they do. Protests are best done around government buildings anyways. I believe in being hospitable towards others, I like to play with Mormons (I know a few and I believe they deserve equal rights and be allowed to marry whoever they wish....even other Mormons

) and am very open with everyone - I think my boy would want it that way, so I do it just for him.

I love guys like Busy and Bio-chem - I can have a good argument with them and not think that some retard is back there spewing out random "Obama Is LORD......Brains.....Brains.....CHANGE (but not too quickly because that would be terrible and we must continue to implement old and corrupt policies that degrade human life in an effort to appear to preserve our own way of life while destroying everything else...whew..)" answers. I like debates and love to hear from Manic, Min0, Busy, Bio, Kelju, ROID, Iron A-Dick-t

, and of course, myself

.

If activists took yours and crazy enough's attitude i've got to admit that i think this would have been a done deal already. Despite the fact that we are on opposite ends of this issue you two have really made me think differently about this issue

**tallcall** · 05-30-2009, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by bio-chem

If activists took yours and crazy enough's attitude i've got to admit that i think this would have been a done deal already. Despite the fact that we are on opposite ends of this issue you two have really made me think differently about this issue

Aww...you really do love me...

**Chubby** · 05-30-2009, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by ROID

Things I take for granted

Originally Posted by ROID

Gays, negros, jews, gentiles, and dirty HOs shouldn't have any rights.

WHITE POWER

You just answered your own question.

**bio-chem** · 05-30-2009, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by tallcall

Aww...you really do love me...

lets not get carried away

**Crono1000** · 05-30-2009, 12:15 PM

I'll never understand why people who aren't affected get a say in if two other people can get married. I truly don't understand, and some day in the future we'll look back on our prejudice the same way we looked at our treatment to blacks and women in our history. I would honestly like an explanation that makes any sense. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but as I see it these are the main arguments:

Argument A: My definition of marriage is between a man and a woman.

If this is the argument, why would it that semantics is more important than how people actually live their life. As I see it, yes, you may have to sacrifice your definition to improve a large number of people's lives. It may not be optimal if your definition is so valuable to you, but it would be a worthy and valuable exchange.

Argument B: Allowing same sex marriage is a step closer to marrying dolphins.

In what way are two consenting adults agreeing to marriage at all related to marrying an inanimate object or an animal? The presense of a pole and a hole does not make two person any more human than two poles. I could maybe understand if someone was drive-by married against their will, but they choose to get married whereas your dolphin cannot. And even if someone does marry a dolphin, why should that affect you either? Dolphins are hot, anyway.

Argument C: Gay marriage is against the Bible.

This is the only explanation I can understand, as religion is a powerful and respectable force (whether you believe in it or not). Although I might not agree with this stance, I can at least understand its roots. I just hope that the person hiding behing this explanation can back it up with the acceptance inherent to it. Perhaps grant them other rights if not marriage then? Marriage today has become a legal matter first, a religious matter second. Just let them sign the damn documents and not do it in your church, everyone wins.

**min0 lee** · 05-30-2009, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by KelJu

I'll end with this picture.

But I like looking at pretty funny pictures...

**maniclion** · 05-30-2009, 04:37 PM

I just can't stand the whole "We know what's best for other people's lives and ultimate salvation attitude." People with so much moral fortitude that they can spill it into other peoples lives are like obese people on planes, rude and unwanted.....

**maniclion** · 05-30-2009, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Crono1000

I'll never understand why people who aren't affected get a say in if two other people can get married. I truly don't understand, and some day in the future we'll look back on our prejudice the same way we looked at our treatment to blacks and women in our history. I would honestly like an explanation that makes any sense. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but as I see it these are the main arguments:

Argument A: My definition of marriage is between a man and a woman.

If this is the argument, why would it that semantics is more important than how people actually live their life. As I see it, yes, you may have to sacrifice your definition to improve a large number of people's lives. It may not be optimal if your definition is so valuable to you, but it would be a worthy and valuable exchange.

Argument B: Allowing same sex marriage is a step closer to marrying dolphins.

In what way are two consenting adults agreeing to marriage at all related to marrying an inanimate object or an animal? The presense of a pole and a hole does not make two person any more human than two poles. I could maybe understand if someone was drive-by married against their will, but they choose to get married whereas your dolphin cannot. And even if someone does marry a dolphin, why should that affect you either? Dolphins are hot, anyway.

Argument C: Gay marriage is against the Bible.

This is the only explanation I can understand, as religion is a powerful and respectable force (whether you believe in it or not). Although I might not agree with this stance, I can at least understand its roots. I just hope that the person hiding behing this explanation can back it up with the acceptance inherent to it. Perhaps grant them other rights if not marriage then? Marriage today has become a legal matter first, a religious matter second. Just let them sign the damn documents and not do it in your church, everyone wins.

Remember not too long ago they were arguing if a white man/woman could marry a Niggra then people might just start marrying pigs and goats, too....

**diablomex** · 05-30-2009, 05:15 PM

you know , i dont understand the whole arguement.the people in california voted.now their mad.come on, the gays are never happy. i thought their suppose to be gay(happy).anyways im no, right wing nut...and i have nothing against gay people,but why is'nt civil unions enough.as long as you get all the benifits and if your not fight for the benifits of marriage.truthfully,marriages' foundation started in the bible.if we did'nt have the bible,we wouldnt even be talking about this.now think hard and do some research, before the you start bashing me.and i think thats why religious people have a problem with that issue.at least one of the main ones.just keep out of the church, most say.i say just upgrade the laws on civil unions.i didnt think about this issue at first, but the truth is in our society is that were never happy with an inch..we got to have the whole yard.now you have piligimist, and other crazy relationships asking for their rights. and why shouldnt we give to them, if we're gonna bend the meaning of marriage. im sure they love each other too.and i had a feeling when this debate started again,that this was gonna happen.just my 2 cents.dont worry, be happy.

**diablomex** · 05-30-2009, 05:21 PM

and that white power stuff, we gotta stop all that talk.a lot of cowards say things like that.that are too scared to say to someones face.and thats the truth. the only people i ever hear say that is in kkk parades and in prison.or scared people on the computer.and im sure

your a tuff guy.we got to move beyond that, as a society. we're always trying to devide ourseves in every situation.

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